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Old 12-13-2009, 05:08 AM   #41
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OK putting it back on track, in light of the latest announcement at the VGA which really makes me want to puke...

Up in the TOR forums apparently dude doing the interview has payed us (and forums like ours) a little bit of attention and clarified (more or less restated what he said) that Revan went out into the outer rims to look for the sith threat after K1. So we still have the true sith and we still have the background for TSL. Saying that theirs is a creative team, they don't wish to destroy storylines.

The part before K1 was basically: After pwning the pair, then proceeds to move forth with his plans by sending the two back into the Galaxy for the next phase of his plans. Then suddenly Revan and Malak could eventually willfully disobey the Emperor once far enough away.

I'll let you all decide for yourselves what this means. (It better not be what it sounds like!)

So essentially if there is any one thing alluded to about TSL, it'll be cursory outsiders' stories from a 'historical' and 'looking back' perspective. Like it was a mission in secrecy to somehow end the unknown threat that killed everyone on Katarr. Let it blow over and be forgotten. I guess TSL is going to be that great story nobody in the galaxy ever heard about. We'll see.

It's too early but a reason to keep TSL intact in EU canon is because not keeping it would cause a tremendous amount of upset w.r.t. canon sources referring to TSL characters and events. It would just make a huge mess.
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:07 AM   #42
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I've never been a fan of the "Group of Scoundrels and neophytes re-Start the Jedi Order" Rhubarb, I like to think (Apart from the Obi-Wan/Yoda>Luke= NJO) That the Jedi Have been a Constant since the Dawn of the Republic... and I hate Kreia, and the triumvirate, BUT... I think overall TSL was Great, and I do not want it brushed over. IF the Emperor is Naga Sadow, and the Sith are in fact the Lords of the Old Sith Empire, then I can accept Revan and Malak being Broken, but not at the expense of the Story we all know. Why not Just keep things as they were? They Purposely Made it 300 years later to Avoid Retcon and Convoluted time-lines... then do this lol.


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Old 12-13-2009, 12:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by adamqd View Post
IF the Emperor is Naga Sadow
Woah woah woah, slow down. What? Tell me you don't have a source for that.


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Old 12-13-2009, 01:25 PM   #44
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Woah woah woah, slow down. What? Tell me you don't have a source for that.
IIRC, it's meant to be the Emperor at the end of the GHW. I don't think it can be Sadow - he goes to Yavin IV, and is awoken and then killed by Freedon Nadd, IIRC. Kressh is entombed on Korriban, as we know, so it must be a new character, from what I can tell.



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Old 12-13-2009, 01:26 PM   #45
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The lead writer confirmed the emperor isn't Naga Sadow.

@GTA:SWcity that makes me think they may do something like WoW, flashbacks (quest chain), or the Caverns of Time (basically lets you go back in time to see the major battles of WoW lore, and is a main raid instance).
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by cire992 View Post
Woah woah woah, slow down. What? Tell me you don't have a source for that.
It has been Hinted at, But the Most Current canon sources still state Sadow's "Death" as being by the Hand of Nadd, So I'm stickin wit that, but Bioware are Changing TSL... Why not Change TOTJ lol? (NO!) but anyway, It's not Certain yet as they haven't actually released the Emperor's identity.


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Old 12-13-2009, 04:38 PM   #47
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It has been Hinted at, But the Most Current canon sources still state Sadow's "Death" as being by the Hand of Nadd, So I'm stickin wit that, but Bioware are Changing TSL... Why not Change TOTJ lol? (NO!) but anyway, It's not Certain yet as they haven't actually released the Emperor's identity.
Jeez-sus. You know what the problem is? Star Wars canon is WAY too complicated. If they can't get shizzles as basic as this sorted out, then they must be so confused that they're just making crap up. They saw a picture of him on Wookieepedia and said "Yeah I'll take one of those, with no onions and a large soda" and Boom, suddenly some dude is back from the dead.


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Old 12-14-2009, 03:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by cire992 View Post
Jeez-sus. You know what the problem is? Star Wars canon is WAY too complicated. If they can't get shizzles as basic as this sorted out, then they must be so confused that they're just making crap up. They saw a picture of him on Wookieepedia and said "Yeah I'll take one of those, with no onions and a large soda" and Boom, suddenly some dude is back from the dead.
I wish they would use the Infinites label to streamline the timeline a bit. Trying to shoehorn every little thing into canon leaves you with the mess we have. But that is never going to happen...

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Old 12-14-2009, 04:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
Warning: spoiler-heavy post for chunks of the EU.


IIRC, it's meant to be the Emperor at the end of the GHW. I don't think it can be Sadow - he goes to Yavin IV, and is awoken and then killed by Freedon Nadd, IIRC. Kressh is entombed on Korriban, as we know, so it must be a new character, from what I can tell.
Here be the relevant article for all to read:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Emperor


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Originally Posted by Kyp Dooran View Post
The lead writer confirmed the emperor isn't Naga Sadow.

@GTA:SWcity that makes me think they may do something like WoW, flashbacks (quest chain), or the Caverns of Time (basically lets you go back in time to see the major battles of WoW lore, and is a main raid instance).
Huh?

You mean sorta like what Silveredge9 did in BHOS:SR?
...If not, do you have any relevant article to link up so I can get a better idea? (I never played WoW)

I think I get what you're essentially saying, though. Like maybe through visions in the force?
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:23 PM   #50
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Huh?

You mean sorta like what Silveredge9 did in BHOS:SR?
...If not, do you have any relevant article to link up so I can get a better idea? (I never played WoW)

I think I get what you're essentially saying, though. Like maybe through visions in the force?
They can mask the flashbacks as "footprints in the force" or whatever, but in WoW, you fought big bad lore bosses in "instances." Essentially, dungeons. One such area of WoW, was named the Caverns of Time, where some dragons watched over the past, to make sure no tamperement occured. One of the main villians, akin to Revan, corrupted, blablabla, was a pretty interesting character people wanted to be involved in. So they made a reason for the character to see the past through the eyes of a ghost, playing as this now big bad corrupted guy.

So I was basically saying, if BW wanted to go beyond journals and create something interactive or fun out of Revan's fate. Perhaps you can witness his travels in a quest chain by finding these "footprints" in the Force, or even play as him in the vision. Or, mimic WoW in having a "Caverns of Time," type area, perhaps an area with an immense amount of unstable force energy, that it stretches time or some such other explanation. That allows them to make whole dungeons dedicated on past events like the Mandalorian Wars and such.
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:54 PM   #51
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i was a bit upset about the butchering,but turns out, it kinda makes sense and isn't really a retcon,there's still a lot of open space for them to tackle so let's wait and see
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:29 AM   #52
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I am glad it at least sounds like TSL won't be butchered (I hope it won't be), but I am a tad concerned if the retcon or revelation of pre K1. If he entrusted Ravan and Malak with the star forge and trayus academy that would be pretty fail. He better have been *really* preoccupied with stuff or have had a harem of like 1,000 women to please or something.


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Old 12-16-2009, 12:43 AM   #53
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Didn't Revan and Malak find out about the Star Forge before they went to the Mandalorian Wars? Even if they didn't, I highly doubt the emperor knew anything about it as, you know... the knowledge of being able to create an invincible "free" army of ships is something you probably don't want to entrust to two new cronies; UNLESS of course, the Star Forge was really Sovereign in disguise!
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:17 PM   #54
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I believe he said it was Ajunta Pall. The Sith whose "tomb" contained the map to the Star Forge and no body. It could very well be that Revan and Malak were told by the Emperor to seek out the Forge, knowing that it would feed off them. And being rather arrogant(as has already been established in the Timeline) he figured they would actually listen to him. Instead they(well Revan at least as Malak was more destructive) began working against him. The Emperor might also have feared that the forge would take his force sensitivity as the Rakata had lost theirs(even though it was not the Forge itself, but I doubt the Emperor did much research into it...


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Old 12-17-2009, 06:56 PM   #55
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I believe he said it was Ajunta Pall. The Sith whose "tomb" contained the map to the Star Forge and no body. It could very well be that Revan and Malak were told by the Emperor to seek out the Forge, knowing that it would feed off them. And being rather arrogant(as has already been established in the Timeline) he figured they would actually listen to him. Instead they(well Revan at least as Malak was more destructive) began working against him. The Emperor might also have feared that the forge would take his force sensitivity as the Rakata had lost theirs(even though it was not the Forge itself, but I doubt the Emperor did much research into it...
That tomb belonged to Naga Sadow. Ajunta Pall was the ghost.



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Old 12-17-2009, 07:30 PM   #56
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That tomb belonged to Naga Sadow. Ajunta Pall was the ghost.
EEP! you're right. Dang sword of Ajunta Pall should have reminded me.

Then it must be Freedon Nadd.

Course seeing as how OTHER Sith Lords' ghosts have "posessed" living hosts(Exar Kun)... it's entirely possible that something like that happened.


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Old 12-17-2009, 07:43 PM   #57
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:47 PM   #58
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Didn't Ajunta Pall have his own tomb? The one across Sadow's IIRC correctly...
Oh well...


Still, If the storyline is to make much sense, at all:
The Sith might have known about the Star Forge, but were not able to access it/find it. The more I look at this and how the ruins on Dantooine were sealed off (by the Jedi?), the more it looks like the struggle for the Star Forge might have been a very old one. Would it be likely that the great hyperspace war was partially about a vie for power to re-discover the Star Forge? Certainly sounds like an issue that warranted such wars.

I cannot think of any good reason that the Sith would have just let go of an artifact like the star forge if they really did have it in their possession.

If:
1) there is a gang of all this great horrible sith stuff lurking in the shadows and
2) somehow they have stuff more powerful than the star forge

then would that not imply a major incompetence in the long run?
Oh sure they'd (the sith would have) been preparing for war for a thousand+ years and brought war to the galaxy for <3,000 years until the seventh battle of Ruusan (by then which all that original sith empire would have died out). Still, it just sounds like vague EU filler story even with the good math.
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:32 AM   #59
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(Just a note: I was kidding about Nadd. Poking fun at my ajunta pall stuff)
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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
Didn't Ajunta Pall have his own tomb? The one across Sadow's IIRC correctly...
Oh well...


Still, If the storyline is to make much sense, at all:
The Sith might have known about the Star Forge, but were not able to access it/find it. The more I look at this and how the ruins on Dantooine were sealed off (by the Jedi?), the more it looks like the struggle for the Star Forge might have been a very old one. Would it be likely that the great hyperspace war was partially about a vie for power to re-discover the Star Forge? Certainly sounds like an issue that warranted such wars.

I cannot think of any good reason that the Sith would have just let go of an artifact like the star forge if they really did have it in their possession.

If:
1) there is a gang of all this great horrible sith stuff lurking in the shadows and
2) somehow they have stuff more powerful than the star forge

then would that not imply a major incompetence in the long run?
Oh sure they'd (the sith would have) been preparing for war for a thousand+ years and brought war to the galaxy for <3,000 years until the seventh battle of Ruusan (by then which all that original sith empire would have died out). Still, it just sounds like vague EU filler story even with the good math.
1) Doesn't have to be true
2) Doesn't have to be more powerful

Here's how: The Star Forge feeds off it's users. It gives power, but requires Force power as well (I think Malak was the one who mentioned it, or maybe the computer in the temple or the elders camp maybe even one of the elders... SOMEBODY MENTIONED IT). Now being the live loving Sith Emperor he is, he wouldn't want to risk giving up his Force power. Seeing as how the map was in Sadows tomb, perhaps he was the first to travel to all of the maps to discover it's location. He may have even waited for someone to come by(hey if you can live for over a thousand years, what's a few years?).


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Old 06-27-2010, 03:51 PM   #60
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I'm a bit late to this but I kind of like all of moral ambiguity of KOTOR & II because it is one of the few things that set it apart from other Star Wars videogames and well other characters in the SW continuity. I don't mind a gray sort of antihero villain from time to time if it means that I get a break from the typical curly-moustached, black cape wearing antagonist that always pits his opponents in all too easy Macgyver situations.

As for TOR as usual I will remain optimistic about it but I won't be dashing out to the nearest Target to buy a copy as soon as it hits shelves. I'll still want to play it just to see how the worlds I visited back in KI & II changed over the past 3 centuries. The retconning in Star Wars in general is pretty terrible not just the TSL thing, I mean don't get me started on the Clone Wars



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Old 06-27-2010, 07:51 PM   #61
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I know i'm late but whatever.

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What well-documented Sith do we know of who were not malevolent?
Well I don't think kreia could really be rated as malevolent, she nis a weir old women, who love to manipulate the others, but she never do anything *really* bad, she killed the three jedi masters? come on, they where arbitrarily trying to cut the exile connection to the force, without asking her opinion, and we know well how cruel it is, after knowing what it was for her the first time, so i think the jedi master were worst than kreia for killing them.

She maintained Hanraar alive? well maybe the reasons were not so good, but that's not an atrocity, the wookie is crazy, and she don't force him to be the exile slave, he just help him, and do two, or three thing to kreia, but for the rest he have some freedom.

And, also, kreia never support the dark side exile when he does the random cruel action, like killing anyone without any reason.

And she IS a Sith, and don't respect the sith code, as probably Revan, Then there is Visas, who also IS a Sith, and she might be a little disturbed, she's not really that bad, the poor girl, she have just seen all her planet being "killed" in front of her eyes, i guess we can understand that she get a little darky.

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This argument is impractical and silly. I'm going to cite a real world example: the U.S. can't effectively fight al-Qaeda. Does that make America bad because we aren't perfect? It's a widely accepted fact that if anything in fiction is perfect, then the story wouldn't be good.
Not really, but for some people, the U.S aren't really good, starting a war on Afghanistan, because they don't tell where is a terrorist, of course ALL the country is responsible, and by the way,
Osama is still free, so they made the war for what? for anything.

Then Irak, atomic bomb? lol, there wasn't any, just the petrol

Then we have the medical assurances that just want to get all the money they can, often acting on a little "malevolant" way,

So, if you want to compare the jedi to the U.S, I think that then the jedi must really be a bunch of corrupt guys . (I'm talking about the government, not the American people, and also talking about the jedi order, not the padawans, and all the jedi etc...)


For bad jedis we have worst that anything kreia or visas, could do, or many other siths:

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During the final trials of the group's Padawans, the WatchCircle encountered a vision of their deaths and what they believed to be the return of the Sith. The WatchCircle as a result struck their Padawans down during their Knighting ceremony, save for the late Zayne Carrick. The WatchCircle then framed the murders on Carrick, which resulted in a galaxy-wide chase for the supposed fugitive.
The jedi masters killed all of their students because of a vision? where is the redemption? the "love"?
Also the jedi master who exiled the "exile" just because she fight for her beliefs, trying to protect the republic, while the council refused to act.
Without the fact that Revan became a dark lord, what revan, the exile, and the other jedis, have done, was the right choice, and they save the galaxy, and the jedis who stayed in a safe place, just have judged them.

Then you also have the conversation between yoda, mace windu, and obi wan, about the jedi order becoming arrogant, so are the guarantors of peace supposed to be selfish, over confident, and arrogant?

So no, the jedi order is not all white. Also cutting the children, for their families, because it can lead to the dark side? why don't they teach them to control their feeling instead of refusing them, Anakin wouldn't have fail if he could have trusted on the order to help him, without having to hide his relation with padme.

Jhonatan told the greatest power is "love", well the jedi aren't allowed to love. It's like the religions, at the beginning there are thing created for something good, but it start to become wrong with time, like for the Muslim who can't eat pig, well that was for health reasons, now "allah" will punish them for eating it. The catholic priest can't love like the jedi, and can't get married, and then we are surprised to see pedophile priests. The Christians aren't supposed to live in the luxury, well take a look at the Vatican.

I'm not saying the religions are bad, but what people do with it is often bad, and then it become corrupted, or have a bad interpretation, (commit suicide by crashing a plain on two towers, will lead you to the paradise), and in my opinion the jedi order is just like a religion, not bad in the depths but, in the reality it just don't go as well as it should.


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Old 06-27-2010, 09:18 PM   #62
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I know i'm late but whatever.
No sweat, it's never too late to argue about this ****.

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Well I don't think kreia could really be rated as malevolent, she nis a weir old women, who love to manipulate the others, but she never do anything *really* bad
Off the top of my head:
1. She enslaved Hanharr with another life debt and kept him alive solely so she could set him up for another fight with Mira
2. Invades Atton's mind with the Force and uses information from that to blackmail him into staying with the crew
3. Used Tobin to draw Nihilus to Telos, sending the latter to what just about amounts to certain death in doing so
4. And, of course, her plan to kill the Force had a good chance of killing either all life in the known universe, or a pretty big chunk of it.

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she killed the three jedi masters? come on, they where arbitrarily trying to cut the exile connection to the force, without asking her opinion, and we know well how cruel it is, after knowing what it was for her the first time, so i think the jedi master were worst than kreia for killing them.
Unjustified murder is unjustified murder. The Jedi Masters were not trying to harm anyone for their own purposes. Furthermore, Kreia killed the Jedi Masters just as "arbitrarily" as they tried to block the Exile's ability to use the Force; they acted, at worst, out of ignorance of the Exile's significance in that she was the only one who could take Nihilus in a fight, while Kreia acted out of her thirst for revenge against the Jedi, knowing damn well what was going on, and at no point did she consider attempting to negotiate or reason with the Jedi.

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She maintained Hanraar alive? well maybe the reasons were not so good, but that's not an atrocity, the wookie is crazy, and she don't force him to be the exile slave, he just help him, and do two, or three thing to kreia, but for the rest he have some freedom.
Balderdash. She kept him alive against his will so she could pit him against Mira. He was just another pawn; she didn't give a **** about Hanharr.

Quote:
And, also, kreia never support the dark side exile when he does the random cruel action, like killing anyone without any reason.
That is true, but you do not seem to be paying enough attention to why Kreia does so. Kreia has no problem with doing evil things; she just hates it when the Exile does it in a manner or for a reason that she finds distasteful. Kreia values cleverness, subtlety, and ability to see how factors in a situation can be understood and controlled; hence, when the Exile kills an innocent person, she rebukes her not because she cares about the innocent person's life, but because the Exile isn't subscribing to her way of thinking, which means being clever and achieving goals by underhanded means and for solid reasons.


Quote:
The jedi masters killed all of their students because of a vision? where is the redemption? the "love"?
Those Masters were members of the Jedi Covenant, a radical organization which, incidentally, was not known to exist even by the Council, which was pissed off over what happened on Taris.

Quote:
Also the jedi master who exiled the "exile" just because she fight for her beliefs, trying to protect the republic, while the council refused to act.
They didn't exile the Exile for her beliefs; that was just what they told her. The real reason as outlined near the game's end is because of the effects they feared her rapid Force-bonding ability and status as a wound in the Force would damage the Jedi Order when it already was starting to run low on members. Furthermore, The Jedi Council did give Revan their support after they learned of what the Mandalorians did on Cathar.

Quote:
So no, the jedi order is not all white. Also cutting the children, for their families, because it can lead to the dark side? why don't they teach them to control their feeling instead of refusing them, Anakin wouldn't have fail if he could have trusted on the order to help him, without having to hide his relation with padme.
Jedi aren't supposed to suppress their emotions, they're supposed to deal with them by keeping them under control. Hence, if Anakin had kept his emotions under control, he never would have gotten with his wife and the **** that went down in Episode III very well might have gone much better for the galaxy.

Furthermore, does Anakin's marriage being secret have to do with him falling to the dark side? What difference would the situation with him being hysterically afraid of her dying have?

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Jhonatan told the greatest power is "love", well the jedi aren't allowed to love.
No, they're just not allowed to get unnecessarily attached to people. Because of what happened with Anakin, for example.


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Old 06-28-2010, 09:00 AM   #63
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Off the top of my head:
1. She enslaved Hanharr with another life debt and kept him alive solely so she could set him up for another fight with Mira
2. Invades Atton's mind with the Force and uses information from that to blackmail him into staying with the crew
3. Used Tobin to draw Nihilus to Telos, sending the latter to what just about amounts to certain death in doing so
4. And, of course, her plan to kill the Force had a good chance of killing either all life in the known universe, or a pretty big chunk
1. yes, but after it he can leave peacefully, the Czerka is faar worst than kreia when it come to the wookies, or other non human species, really FAAR worst, and they aren't even siths, the mandalorian too, are worst, like hunting wookies in the shadowlands for pleasure, Kreia have used him, but well, he already wanted to kill mira, so Kreia just keep him on live against his will but, what she ask him to do, isnt really a big problem to Hanrrar, and after killing mira he can do what he want, no more life debt, or he loose once again, and she have just forced him to live a couple days-weeks more, is that that bad as to call her malevolent?

2. Yes she love to manipulate, but well, Atton eventually fall in love with the exile, so I don't think Atton would really regret to have stayed in the crew, so in that the only bad thing is the way she have done it, but the action itself, isn't really comparable to what many other siths have ever done.

3. Well would you consider someone evil because he sent Stalin, Pinochet, Franco, a SS officer, or any other guy like this, to a certain death, or to cannibals, or whatever? Tobin, is the one that tried to kill the ebon hawk crew because he was ally with the Siths, we tried under vaklu orders to take control of Onderon, making a civil war, i'm not specially a partisan of the death penalty because the risk of killing innocents, but when the crime is clear, and really serious, I don't think bit is inhuman to do so, maybe kreia's reasons weren't noble, but once again the action itself isn't that bad.
And yes she put Telos in danger, but i think letting Nihilus live would cause more deaths in the long term.

4. For me it is more a depressive act, that an evil act, she don't do it to kill anyone, that's not her purpose, her purpose is to be free of the force, so it's more a crazy plan that an evil plan, it would be evil if she intended to do it to kill any one in the galaxy, so for me she's not evil, maybe she have harsh and cruel methods, she's old, crazy and depressed, but surely not malevolent.


And you didn't answer about visas
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Unjustified murder is unjustified murder. The Jedi Masters were not trying to harm anyone for their own purposes. Furthermore, Kreia killed the Jedi Masters just as "arbitrarily" as they tried to block the Exile's ability to use the Force; they acted, at worst, out of ignorance of the Exile's significance in that she was the only one who could take Nihilus in a fight, while Kreia acted out of her thirst for revenge against the Jedi, knowing damn well what was going on, and at no point did she consider attempting to negotiate or reason with the Jedi.
On their own purpose maybe not, but they *were* trying to harm someone, all the game, make us think about how cruel it is to cut someone from the force, that it's as cutting him from his 5 senses, when the exile talk about it she say things as "such a cruel thing", so I think the exile would prefer to loose her eyes than the force, but the jedi master on their own beliefs decided that she must be cutted from the force, without trying to understand her, without looking if there were any other way. You can say there is not physical harm, but is like a rape, there isn't really physical harm, but it can destroy someone's life, and we know how the exile has just being hanging around the galaxy without purpose, or anything. There more, if you listen for all what Kreia say after killing them, you can understand her action, and i'm not sure if she would kill them if they haven't try to cut the exile's bond with the force.
And well she didn't try to negotiate, but them neither, they just took their lightsabers, when she appears, i don't think they would mind of killing her.

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That is true, but you do not seem to be paying enough attention to why Kreia does so.
Yes I do, but have you forgotten what you said before?


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there are only two flaws: random cruelty and betrayal. Remove that and the Sith are the good guys.
What about their tendencies to kill large numbers of other good guys and/or innocents? Besides, your statement about how good they'd be without those two traits is irrelevant, because at no point in the Sith Order's seven thousand year-history of existence and reformation did it ever not have those traits.
Well what I say proofs that kreia don't have the random cruelty, she never do anything cruel without purpose, when so do something cruel is really because she had to.

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Those Masters were members of the Jedi Covenant, a radical organization which, incidentally, was not known to exist even by the Council, which was pissed off over what happened on Taris.
Radical organization or not, they were jedi masters, forming part of the jedi order, and as far as we know they are jedi, not siths.

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They didn't exile the Exile for her beliefs; that was just what they told her.
Well, Speak for you, Atris wanted even to kill her, and she really blames the exile for have gone to the mandalorian wars, and Vrook too, they blame the exile for have joined the mandalorian wars, maybe not all the masters, but some of them does blame her for that, and think she fall into the dark side but act for her beliefs and try to save innocents, what the council refuse to do

As Carth I think, have said, if it was under the council oders, that the jedi have joined the mandalorian wars, maybe there wouldn't have been any jedi civil war.


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The Jedi Council did give Revan their support after they learned of what the Mandalorians did on Cathar.
And still, they kip blaming the jedi who go fight in the mandalorian wars, blaming them for all the sith problems it were after it, but if revan has been a general, and the jedi council the commanders, don't you think it would be the better solution? instead of it, they just stayed in their chairs, watch, then blame.


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Jedi aren't supposed to suppress their emotions, they're supposed to deal with them by keeping them under control. Hence, if Anakin had kept his emotions under control, he never would have gotten with his wife and the **** that went down in Episode III very well might have gone much better for the galaxy.

Furthermore, does Anakin's marriage being secret have to do with him falling to the dark side? What difference would the situation with him being hysterically afraid of her dying have?
Well if for you retaining for fall in love with padme, is "control" his emotions, and not "suppress" them.. then let's say "control", and of course not being allowed to love, is not asking you to supress your emotions, just control them Tell me how do you control the fact of falling in love (other way than supress your feelings, because if you control the felling of love that you have, then it means you're in love ^^)

Well, if he wouldn't have his marriage secret, we could have talk of it with obi wan, or yoda, and they could have helped him, instead of it, the only one with whom he could talk about it, was palpatine, and we all know how bad it was. If the jedi have give him support, with his relation, and helped him, to stay in the way, he wouldn't have cut windu's hand, because he "needs" (or at least he thinks so) palpatine, but would it be the same, if the jedi have offered their' support?

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No, they're just not allowed to get unnecessarily attached to people. Because of what happened with Anakin, for example.
And Bastilla return into the light side, because she's in love with revan, so the "unnecessarily attachment" as you say save her from the dark side.

You should speak more with jolee, i think like him that the jedi shouldn't learn to suppress their emotions, to don't love, to don't get angry, etc, because these are thing that can't always be avoided, but the jedi should learn to deal ith the emotions, how to love without letting the love made you crazy like anakin, because there will always be jedi with such feelings, so it would be better to teach them how to live with their emotions, instead of ignoring them.

To give an example other that the pedophile priest that you just ignored, are you an anti sex catholic partisan? do you think that for avoiding unwanted pregnancy, or virus you should forbid people to having sex for other reasons than the reproduction? knowing that the young would often just not listen at their parents and now we see young of 11 years not virgin, girl who just hook with all their friends to pass the time etc.(that's the way the jedi deal with the emotions)

Or would you instead try to speak with them, prevent them for the risk, invent the condoms, and give the people the tool to avoid the risk without forbid them to have sex. For example the parents, instead of forbid the children for having sex, talk with them about it, the risk, giving the girl more confidence to be able to say no, when they don't want to, and not let them learn about it in po** movies, having sex hide from their parents, etc...

What do you think would be the best solution?


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Old 06-28-2010, 10:18 AM   #64
TKA-001
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Originally Posted by Seikan View Post
1. yes, but after it he can leave peacefully, the Czerka is faar worst than kreia when it come to the wookies, or other non human species, really FAAR worst, and they aren't even siths, the mandalorian too, are worst, like hunting wookies in the shadowlands for pleasure, Kreia have used him, but well, he already wanted to kill mira, so Kreia just keep him on live against his will but, what she ask him to do, isnt really a big problem to Hanrrar, and after killing mira he can do what he want, no more life debt, or he loose once again, and she have just forced him to live a couple days-weeks more, is that that bad as to call her malevolent?
Yeah, that is bad enough. Kreia doesn't give a **** about Hanharr, she just wants another pawn. It's never even made clear why she wants him to fight Mira; Kreia's just playing games with herself.

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2. Yes she love to manipulate, but well, Atton eventually fall in love with the exile, so I don't think Atton would really regret to have stayed in the crew, so in that the only bad thing is the way she have done it, but the action itself, isn't really comparable to what many other siths have ever done.
Yes it freaking is. Kreia used the Force to rip information out of Atton's head, for the sake of personal curiosity. Not to mention, an accidental right coming from it doesn't justify a wrong.

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3. Well would you consider someone evil because he sent Stalin, Pinochet, Franco, a SS officer, or any other guy like this, to a certain death, or to cannibals, or whatever? Tobin, is the one that tried to kill the ebon hawk crew because he was ally with the Siths, we tried under vaklu orders to take control of Onderon, making a civil war, i'm not specially a partisan of the death penalty because the risk of killing innocents, but when the crime is clear, and really serious, I don't think bit is inhuman to do so, maybe kreia's reasons weren't noble, but once again the action itself isn't that bad
.
I'm not even going to go into whether it was right to kill Tobin; the main issue here is that Kreia is sending him back to the Ravager where he will extremely slowly be drained of his life energy by Nihilus. Who the hell deserves that?

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4. For me it is more a depressive act, that an evil act, she don't do it to kill anyone, that's not her purpose, her purpose is to be free of the force, so it's more a crazy plan that an evil plan, it would be evil if she intended to do it to kill any one in the galaxy, so for me she's not evil, maybe she have harsh and cruel methods, she's old, crazy and depressed, but surely not malevolent.
It was a malevolent plan toward the Force; Kreia somehow got it into her head that the Force controls everything and that people can't make their own decisions with it still functioning. And critically, while it was not malevolent toward anyone in the galaxy, it was still completely without regard for the quintillions of people in the galaxy. Kreia's plan was to "save" the galaxy by completely obliterating the use of the Force, and she doesn't give a **** how many innocent people this kills.

What Kreia does, though, does often not come up to malevolence as much as it does simply having no regard for anyone else. Kreia never helps anyone except to help herself, and she hates the Jedi and Sith so much that she'd risk killing absolutely everyone to get back at them.

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And you didn't answer about visas
I didn't see what she had to do with the rest of the post.

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On their own purpose maybe not, but they *were* trying to harm someone, all the game, make us think about how cruel it is to cut someone from the force, that it's as cutting him from his 5 senses, when the exile talk about it she say things as "such a cruel thing", so I think the exile would prefer to loose her eyes than the force, but the jedi master on their own beliefs decided that she must be cutted from the force, without trying to understand her, without looking if there were any other way.
We have no reason to assume that they didn't try to think of something else to do. They took the most reasonable course of action in regards to what they knew.

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You can say there is not physical harm, but is like a rape, there isn't really physical harm, but it can destroy someone's life, and we know how the exile has just being hanging around the galaxy without purpose, or anything. There more, if you listen for all what Kreia say after killing them, you can understand her action, and i'm not sure if she would kill them if they haven't try to cut the exile's bond with the force.
Give me a break. Kreia's a Sith. She hates the Jedi. The entire plot she's set into motion since the game's beginning is to get revenge on them and the Sith. Kreia may say that she wanted to "beat them without killing them" by converting them to her beliefs, but like any Sith Lord, she's perfectly willing to kill them if they resist. That's the whole point of what happened on Dantooine, for her - she wanted to see how the Jedi would react to the Exile, and if they reacted the way she didn't want, she'd kill them.

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And well she didn't try to negotiate, but them neither, they just took their lightsabers, when she appears, i don't think they would mind of killing her.
They drew their lightsabers because she attacked first with her telekinesis. Any sane man would draw his weapon for self-defense in such a situation. The fact that they just stood there while Kreia monologued at them indicates that they were waiting for her to make the first move. More to the point, Kreia was a Sith Lord, and they had every reason to think that she intended to kill them, which is exactly what happened. And again, Kreia was the one who knew everything about what was going on, and like Vader right before the ending duel in Episode III, her "my way or the highway" attitude gave the other side no real choice. If she had tried to compromise, so might the Jedi.

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Well what I say proofs that kreia don't have the random cruelty, she never do anything cruel without purpose, when so do something cruel is really because she had to.
My statement you quoted is talking about the Sith Order in general, not every single individual Sith. And again, Kreia only has to do evil things as long as she thinks she has to in order to carry out her plans.

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Radical organization or not, they were jedi masters, forming part of the jedi order, and as far as we know they are jedi, not siths.
They were a small group of renegades who acted without the approval or knowledge of the entire rest of the Order; ergo, they are not representative of the Jedi Order beyond themselves.

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Well, Speak for you, Atris wanted even to kill her
Balderdash, Atris wanted her imprisoned because she didn't trust that the Exile wouldn't go back to Revan, which was not unjustified, since the Exile was literally the only Jedi who followed Revan that returned home after.

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and she really blames the exile for have gone to the mandalorian wars, and Vrook too, they blame the exile for have joined the mandalorian wars, maybe not all the masters, but some of them does blame her for that, and think she fall into the dark side but act for her beliefs and try to save innocents, what the council refuse to do
I repeat, they exiled the Exile because of her unusual Force status potentially having unpredictable and dangerous effects on the Order at a dangerous point in history, as per the confrontation between the Exile and them on Dantooine near the end of the game. And also I repeat, the Jedi Council supported Revan in the Mandalorian Wars, as per the KotOR comic series.

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As Carth I think, have said, if it was under the council oders, that the jedi have joined the mandalorian wars, maybe there wouldn't have been any jedi civil war.
The Jedi Civil War didn't have anything to do with the Council's decisions. Revan's Jedi defeated the Mandalorians, and they could have just returned home. Instead, Revan decided to form a Sith Empire and declare war on the Republic. Revan started the war.

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And still, they kip blaming the jedi who go fight in the mandalorian
wars, blaming them for all the sith problems it were after it,
Revan was to blame for that because he's the one who started spreading the dark side throughout his Jedi followers.

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Well if for you retaining for fall in love with padme, is "control" his emotions, and not "suppress" them.. then let's say "control", and of course not being allowed to love, is not asking you to supress your emotions, just control them Tell me how do you control the fact of falling in love (other way than supress your feelings, because if you control the felling of love that you have, then it means you're in love ^^)
My head is spinning.

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Well, if he wouldn't have his marriage secret, we could have talk of it with obi wan, or yoda, and they could have helped him, instead of it, the only one with whom he could talk about it, was palpatine, and we all know how bad it was. If the jedi have give him support, with his relation, and helped him, to stay in the way, he wouldn't have cut windu's hand, because he "needs" (or at least he thinks so) palpatine, but would it be the same, if the jedi have offered their' support?
The Jedi wouldn't have been able to support Anakin anymore than he himself was able to. It still would have boiled down to him constantly having visions of her death and him being crazy-afraid that he wouldn't be able to stop it, and Palpatine stepping in. It still would have just been up to Anakin and his own fear, and Palpatine's promises..

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And Bastilla return into the light side, because she's in love with revan, so the "unnecessarily attachment" as you say save her from the dark side.
That is only one possible path. Bastila can be redeemed by other means. True, the love path is easier, but the fact remains that, more often than not, Jedi having these attachments is more dangerous than it's worth.

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You should speak more with jolee, i think like him that the jedi shouldn't learn to suppress their emotions, to don't love, to don't get angry, etc,
For the last bloody time, the Jedi aren't trained to suppress or ignore emotions, and they are not told to not love. Also, if you seriously need to be told why Jedi should not get angry, then you need to watch the movies again.

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To give an example other that the pedophile priest that you just ignored, are you an anti sex catholic partisan? do you think that for avoiding unwanted pregnancy, or virus you should forbid people to having sex for other reasons than the reproduction? knowing that the young would often just not listen at their parents and now we see young of 11 years not virgin, girl who just hook with all their friends to pass the time etc.(that's the way the jedi deal with the emotions)

Or would you instead try to speak with them, prevent them for the risk, invent the condoms, and give the people the tool to avoid the risk without forbid them to have sex. For example the parents, instead of forbid the children for having sex, talk with them about it, the risk, giving the girl more confidence to be able to say no, when they don't want to, and not let them learn about it in po** movies, having sex hide from their parents, etc...What do you think would be the best solution?
I am not going to debate with you about real-world issues that you try to pass off as a parallel to something in Star Wars. Find someone else if you want to talk about your problems with religion, or whatever.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:44 PM   #65
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"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Old 06-28-2010, 07:51 PM   #66
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Question: Did Anakin turn to the Dark Side MORE because of a) his fear that he would not be able to save Padme from dying in childbirth or b) his desire for power? I've thought about it, and I honestly can't tell.

Was he just using his fear for Padme as a "good" or "noble" excuse to hide his desire to be greater than any of the Jedi (or so Senator Palpatine claimed)?

Also, if Anakin had confessed to his relationship with Padme--and that he was the father of her unborn children--he would have been exiled from the Order. He would have had to face a choice: either lose his position or lose his wife.

Of course, he lost everything anyway due to falling to the Dark Side, but...
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:07 PM   #67
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That's why i say, there would be less risks by helping him, because knowing he would be exile if he ever told them the truth, the only one he has to talk about it was palpatine, and that was really bad... but if instead he could have counted on the jedi order to help him it might have changed.


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Old 06-28-2010, 08:20 PM   #68
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I agree with you. However, according to the plot laid out in Star Wars, meaning Episodes I-VI, Jedi are not supposed to fall in love or form any deep attachments to anyone. I don't think Obi-wan WOULD have helped Anakin.

Thus, I think the Jedi position on love in Episodes I-VI leads to heartbreak and disaster. Sure, you're not SUPPOSED to form attachments, but no one is perfect...
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:44 PM   #69
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I thought about the whole Jedi vs Sith, good vs evil thing and I realized something. Both the Jedi and the Sith are a different means to the same end. As Palpatine remarked in Episode III, "The Jedi want power and they want to keep it." Both groups want the galaxy to work the way they envision it to work. The Jedi piggyback themselves on the Republic, as guardians, mediators, and counselors, subtly manipulating, not necessarily events themselves, but people and groups towards causing the events they want to take place. The Sith attempt to take the galaxy by force, intervening directly with the galaxy as they see fit. For all we know, there weren't Jedi and Sith in the beginning, just a planet of "Force Users" and one leader disagreed with another leader in how they should take control and thus created the Jedi and Sith factions. I think that at some point Kreia, and maybe Jolee, realized this at some point and decided to stop thinking along the lines of Jedi and Sith and "view them as they are, pieces of a whole."

Personally, I think that is what both KotOR games are trying to show us. Yes, there is a Light Side and a Dark Side, but there is more to it than just that. Like...there is an entire forest, not just two trees.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:58 PM   #70
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Also, if Anakin had confessed to his relationship with Padme--and that he was the father of her unborn children--he would have been exiled from the Order. He would have had to face a choice: either lose his position or lose his wife.
I very much doubt that they would have exiled Anakin just like that. Considering his Chosen One status, I think it's more likely that they wouldn't want to piss him off and would sit on the issue for a while, at least until Sidious was found and stopped.


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"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:44 PM   #71
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(Just a note: I was kidding about Nadd. Poking fun at my ajunta pall stuff)
1) Doesn't have to be true
2) Doesn't have to be more powerful
Mind you first that you are responding to an old post. I had not considered something that actually I just thought of not 24 hours ago. As I will come to.

So I officially retract from my position of their incompetence... for now.
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Here's how: The Star Forge feeds off it's users. It gives power, but requires Force power as well (I think Malak was the one who mentioned it, or maybe the computer in the temple or the elders camp maybe even one of the elders... SOMEBODY MENTIONED IT). Now being the live loving Sith Emperor he is, he wouldn't want to risk giving up his Force power.
I know where you're going with this:

"Maybe the Sith Emperor wasn't looking for the star forge afterall?"
Upon examination, maybe this might have been a perfect means with which to "Deceive" the republic with its employment and destruction. A mini war. That would imply he did in fact know about it previously and was using it as an instrument/prop for his own plans.

There's only really a few possibilities as to how this could have played out:
1) he and/or other sith were once able to access and/or possess the star forge which would mean trudging through Lehon/Unknown world far prior to Revan. The problem with this, however, is that a huge trail of evidence would have been left, too big to not be noticed, even by Revan's second coming. (second coming, lol) Somebody would have been bound to remember something like that and pass it down through the rakatans. You just don't hide something like this.

2) There were knowledgeable rakatan survivors elsewhere in the galaxy, able to accurately inform and perhaps infiltrate on behalf of sith. Problem: Still, if they had a plague that cost them their force sensitivity it is unlikely if not impossible that the Star Forge could have been used by their infiltrators.

3) All the above: Rakatan infiltration with the sith covertly stepping in to access or take control of it behind the scenes. This does point to a conspiracy to prop up the elder council with sith puppets to do some "political maneuvering" to this end. This could work, but...

Problems:
a) This would still have been discovered by other rakatans.

b) Now such a discovery would cause infighting and mistrust amongst all rakatans. The ensuing war would have torn everything apart from the inside of the elder tribe let alone all over the entire planet.

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Seeing as how the map was in Sadows tomb, perhaps he was the first to travel to all of the maps to discover it's location. He may have even waited for someone to come by(hey if you can live for over a thousand years, what's a few years?).
I do not think so. We have no evidence of prior access or possession by any sith or otherwise. While something like prior sith possession could remain hidden from the republic for a time, it would not, however, remain hidden from the rakatans.

Only evidence we have to sith possessing prior to Revan is that the sith might have had a trail pointing in that direction AKA star maps. Even so, the rakatans were adamant that they had been isolated for all those millennia. While ancient sith deceiving the rakatan people would have been possible, such a thing would have errupted into a war once (inevitably) discovered that would have destroyed their remaining civilization.

The Rakatans would have also been MUCH more hostile to Revan. Furthermore, why didn't they make at least some mention of previous Sith that accessed/possessed it? Even if it was mere visitors?
Maybe you can help here because it just doesn't make sense and it's just too flimsy to stand up.

The only way would be corruption that infiltrated and moved out quietly. Even that would have made a mark of some kind. This does point to a conspiracy to prop up the elder council with sith puppets to do some "political maneuvering" to this end.

Problem is that unless the ancient sith were able to mindwipe and edit the memory of all Rakatans, like Jedi being able to do it to some of their own, I really don't see how this not-so-little thing would have remained hidden. Especially with such a limited population. They could not have done it by subjugation either. IIRC The Rakatans had no visitors for all that time so there is a lot of explaining to be done.

Also, in this scenario, even if it were used an isolated war between the sith, something like that would tend to be, errm, noticed from afar by people. By people I mean like the republic.

The ancient sith could not have known any of this nor made any determination about the star forge ultimately being limited and perhaps a detriment without prior access/possession. I can see that they'd maybe relinquish it after finding out all of that. But it still begs the question why the Rakatans did not recount this if they'd had visitors. There are many possible explanations but something would have slipped through the cracks. You just don't have something of that scale go unnoticed by the natives. Also there wasn't just the elder tribe, there was the younger and more militant tribe as well that would had to have been dealt with.


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Old 06-29-2010, 02:46 PM   #72
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I thought about the whole Jedi vs Sith, good vs evil thing and I realized something. Both the Jedi and the Sith are a different means to the same end. As Palpatine remarked in Episode III, "The Jedi want power and they want to keep it." Both groups want the galaxy to work the way they envision it to work.
But their goals are totally different. The Jedi seek to protect peace and justice, and according to Mace view civilization and democracy as the best means to that end, which is why they serve the Republic. They don't seek political power for themselves, as they could take it by force. They also had a legal opportunity to actually hold power and were clearly hesitant to do so. Despite some dogmatic issues, overall they attempt to do things for the common good.

The Sith on the other hand are totally in it for themselves, and aim to dominate everyone else and consolidate power.

I guess it really comes down to what you mean by "power".

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Old 07-03-2010, 02:44 PM   #73
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Mind you first that you are responding to an old post. I had not considered something that actually I just thought of not 24 hours ago. As I will come to.
It was not that old when I wrote it...

Might have been that the Sith Emperor had come across another old Rakattan computer with functional databanks that told of what the Star Forge was(the Infinite Empire stretched across the Galaxy). Then sent Revan and Malak to find it. There's no telling WHY he would not have sought it out for himself, but knowing that it drained the power of the user could have been the motivating factor. From what I read, Sith do not like to give up power.


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Old 07-05-2010, 06:37 PM   #74
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Butchering? Pfft! This is nothing. In fact, I noticed that the latest timeline entry went out of its way to be faithful to the KOTOR comic series.

You want to talk about continuity butchering, look at The Clone Wars.


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Old 07-05-2010, 06:49 PM   #75
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Well, an other think that seems to ignore TSL, are the Mandalorians. In TSL Mandalore supposedly unite the Mandalorians, under Revan's orders, to help the republic against the Siths, and in Tor, the mandalorians are united with the Siths, I know 300 years have passed, but well, The Ordo's clan, who help against Nihilus etc, etc, would have keep some idéologies of Mandalore, and would have become allies of the Siths just like this.


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Old 07-05-2010, 09:58 PM   #76
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It was not that old when I wrote it...
Yeah, yeah.
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Might have been that the Sith Emperor had come across another old Rakattan computer with functional databanks that told of what the Star Forge was(the Infinite Empire stretched across the Galaxy). Then sent Revan and Malak to find it. There's no telling WHY he would not have sought it out for himself, but knowing that it drained the power of the user could have been the motivating factor. From what I read, Sith do not like to give up power.
That would be the simplest and most likely way. Time will only tell, though.

It would had to have held history including the plague and how the rakatans were no longer capable of breeding force sensitives.

He could have deduced that the reason for that was due to the use of the star forge. This is what I always thought given all the hints in K1, Bastila's holocron recording in K2 (revan darkside scenario). Which makes sense, really.

Otherwise we're back to an overconfident idiot of an ancient emperor trusting lackeys. However, if the call of these sith for Revan was the call of home, well.....who knows?

BTW I don't think Sadow ever uncovered the Star Forge.

I see Kreia's contradiction for what it was: "revan met no sith empire" but in the next breath telling the Exile "the sith is a belief and it rules elsewhere" was merely her attempting to lure Exile in Revan's direction one last time. She lied in half truths, but she had to have known more that she let on considering jedi and sith hold some of their secrets to the grave (I.E. Zez Kai Ell not breaking his silence, Nor Kavar...though Vrook Lamar was just being a stubborn old arse). She knew how to hide herself from jedi, even masters...Jedi and Sith both probably all knew how to wipe and reprogram (and who knows what else) the minds of others. Sith and Jedi knew how to morph themselves appearance-wise as well. All I'm getting at is that any number of things may be the case and we have knowledge of their means. So I guess my initial upset was unfounded.

We will see in time.


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Old 07-06-2010, 12:08 PM   #77
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Well, an other think that seems to ignore TSL, are the Mandalorians. In TSL Mandalore supposedly unite the Mandalorians, under Revan's orders, to help the republic against the Siths, and in Tor, the mandalorians are united with the Siths, I know 300 years have passed, but well, The Ordo's clan, who help against Nihilus etc, etc, would have keep some idéologies of Mandalore, and would have become allies of the Siths just like this.
Bah, the only reason the Mandalorians would fight the Sith is because they are "worthy opponents" and the Republic was in the crapper as of TSL, and therefore not worthy enough to attack (Clan Ordo was pretty small by then, anyway). They'd just as soon fight the Republic as the Sith.


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Old 07-06-2010, 12:39 PM   #78
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Well, in the last war, the Sith would have been a greater opponent, stronger that the Republic, so... and The clan Ordo was small, but as Canderous is called "Mandalore the Preserver" then the future mandalorians, come from the Ordo's clan, and if Canderous was preparing them to help the republic against the Siths, it makes no sense, that they help the Siths.


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Old 07-06-2010, 01:25 PM   #79
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Except that they don't care who they fight as long as who they fight is "honorable" to fight... Which is very subjective likely meaningless considering how many civilian populations were destroyed by the Mandalorians for the fun of it in the previous war.


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Old 07-06-2010, 02:06 PM   #80
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Except that the Mandalorian have a strange and HUGE "sense of Honor", so if there is something they care about is loyalty, if the clan Ordo by "Mandalore The Preserver" learn them some degree of loyalty towards the republic, they wouldn't betray it.

So it does ignore a little bit the fact that Canderous was uniting the mandalorian clans, to help the republic.


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