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Old 12-28-2010, 07:20 PM   #1
Sordid Dreams
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Jedi Temple discussion

Yes, it was a good level. I'm not disputing that (even though it did make TFU crash a lot for me, probably due to the larger numbers of enemies present at once).
However, please don't insult my intelligence by telling me the temple is utilitarian. The numerous statues, reliefs, and decorative columns present throughout the level aside, look at this screencap from Ep 2: http://images.wikia.com/starwars/ima...b/E2coru38.jpg
Those arches over the walkway are at least fifty meters tall and god knows how tall the ceiling is in the main room through which the suspended walkway leads. Also notice that it is all completely empty and serves no purpose. And it doesn't exactly look crowded, does it? Don't tell me they built it that huge, on a city-covered planet where empty space is a premium commodity, out of necessity. It's opulent and vulgar, that's what it is.
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Old 12-28-2010, 08:08 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
However, please don't insult my intelligence by telling me the temple is utilitarian.
I said "it's the house of 10,000 people from their order, among other things. Therefore, you do need a big place. And there are no superfluous objects within the temple, as far as I know.".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
The numerous statues,
Yes, the Jedi statues, probably made in honor of the lives or deeds of thoes Jedi Knights.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
reliefs, and decorative columns present throughout the level aside,
Maybe to support the temple itself?

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
look at this screencap from Ep 2: http://images.wikia.com/starwars/ima...b/E2coru38.jpg
Those arches over the walkway are at least fifty meters tall and god knows how tall the ceiling is in the main room through which the suspended walkway leads.
Ironic enough, you don't see a single object (superfluous or not) in there. As they say, no possessions.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Also notice that it is all completely empty and serves no purpose.
Not one that you don't know, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
And it doesn't exactly look crowded, does it?
What's that suppose to mean?

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Don't tell me they built it that huge, on a city-covered planet where empty space is a premium commodity, out of necessity.
Being that the main hall, you can't judge the temple itself only by that place. On other shots we see small corridors (tall indeed).

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
It's opulent and vulgar, that's what it is.
So what?

On a more on-topic note, which level did you vote for?

EDIT: From the Wookieepedia:

Quote:
The Coruscant Temple's origins date back to 5,000 BBY when, at the begining of the Great Hyperspace War, the Galactic Republic granted the Jedi land on Coruscant over a sacred mountain, which contained a Force-nexus. A holy place for the local Coruscanti, the Republic hoped by granting the Order land they would build a massive fortress like those they had established on Ossus, Falang Minor, and Haashimut. However, the Order did not wish to entangle themselves with the politics of the capitol or become a symbol of war and opted to build only a small meditative enclave. It wasn't until the Old Sith Wars saw the devastation of Ossus and the Great Jedi Library located there that the Order decided to reestablish its academy at the Sacred Spire. At the behest of the Order's wisest thinkers, the Four Masters began the painstaking task of building the Temple Ziggurat. Growing steadily for the next thousand years the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus.



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Old 12-28-2010, 09:13 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexrd View Post
I said "it's the house of 10,000 people from their order, among other things. Therefore, you do need a big place. And there are no superfluous objects within the temple, as far as I know.".
Ie. "is utilitarian" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_follows_function

Quote:
Yes, the Jedi statues, probably made in honor of the lives or deeds of thoes Jedi Knights.
They are decorative and therefore superfluous. Just like those groovy neon bookshelves in the archives. Given that all the information is stored digitally, those are nothing but decoration. As are the busts.

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Maybe to support the temple itself?
I seriously doubt a spacefaring civilization's architecture relies on stone columns for structural support.

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Ironic enough, you don't see a single object (superfluous or not) in there. As they say, no possessions.
Right. Apart from tailor-made robes, gold-plated lightsabers, fine leather boots, assorted droids, personal starfighters, and various other items a typical humble monk needs.
EDIT: To give you an idea of the kind of luxury a typical Jedi enjoys, take a look at this picture. Assuming a clonetrooper is 2 meters tall (they're probably not, Temuera Morrison is 1.83m, but let's go with that for ease of calculation), those steps seem to be about 20 meters wide. There's three sets, so about 60 for the whole staircase. From this picture we can then estimate the base of the Temple to be about 480 meters wide, say about 320 meters for the top level of the ziggurat, which is about 140 meters tall. That gives us a volume of about 23 million cubic meters. Assuming only 90% of that is actual useful interior space, only half of which is residential, and assuming a ceiling height of 5 meters, which is quite a lot, that still gives us an appartment of over 200 square meters for each and every one of the ten thousand Jedi. That's the sort of accommodation that you get in a royal suite at a five star hotel. Humble ascetic monks my arse.

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Not one that you don't know, anyway.
Okay, I wasn't completely fair in that assessment. There is one purpose it serves, which is to show off.

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What's that suppose to mean?
Exactly what it says. You claim the temple is as big as it is because it needs to be for the vast numbers of Jedi who live in it. Yet looking at that picture, it seems to me the room could've been a tenth of that size and still would've been quite adequate.

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Being that the main hall, you can't judge the temple itself only by that place. On other shots we see small corridors (tall indeed).
That is your idea of a 'small corridor'?

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So what?
Nothing, I guess. If building large and opulent structures for no other purpose than to show off seems like a Jedi-like thing to do to you, then I guess everything's in jolly good order.

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On a more on-topic note, which level did you vote for?
Death Star, but it was a pretty tough choice. The only levels I didn't like were the Raxus Prime ones, and then for the most part only because everything in them is this nasty toxic yellow. No variety. And rusty pieces of scrap metal look like crap no matter how high the number of polygons and resolution of the texture used to render them.

Quote:
EDIT: From the Wookieepedia:

The Coruscant Temple's origins date back to 5,000 BBY when, at the begining of the Great Hyperspace War, the Galactic Republic granted the Jedi land on Coruscant over a sacred mountain, which contained a Force-nexus. A holy place for the local Coruscanti, the Republic hoped by granting the Order land they would build a massive fortress like those they had established on Ossus, Falang Minor, and Haashimut. However, the Order did not wish to entangle themselves with the politics of the capitol or become a symbol of war and opted to build only a small meditative enclave. It wasn't until the Old Sith Wars saw the devastation of Ossus and the Great Jedi Library located there that the Order decided to reestablish its academy at the Sacred Spire. At the behest of the Order's wisest thinkers, the Four Masters began the painstaking task of building the Temple Ziggurat. Growing steadily for the next thousand years the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus.
Allow me to throw your "so what?" right back at you. What exactly is your point with this?

Last edited by Sordid Dreams; 12-28-2010 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 12-29-2010, 06:35 AM   #4
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This is too much off topic, but just to clarify:

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
They are decorative and therefore superfluous. Just like those groovy neon bookshelves in the archives. Given that all the information is stored digitally, those are nothing but decoration. As are the busts.
No. Statues and busts are not meant to be decorative. As I said, they are made as a sign of honor and respect.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
I seriously doubt a spacefaring civilization's architecture relies on stone columns for structural support.
It does. And it's not a first on the Star Wars universe.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Right. Apart from tailor-made robes,
Tailor-made?! From what I know, the Jedi robes are simple, specifically to show their modesty.

Again, from the Wookiee:

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Boots, loose-fitting pants and a cloak typically accompanied the garment. As these garments were not usually elaborate, the outfit mirrored their attachment-free philosophy, as well as showing their requirement to live almost devoid of luxury and also their devotion to service. The apparel also allowed great freedom of movement. The rough material proved useful on survival missions, as it was strong enough to show some resistance to tearing and fraying, as well as putting the wearer through some discomfort to help sharpen their focus.
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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
gold-plated lightsabers,
Quote:
Electrum was a rare metal once used in lightsaber construction as a sign of Force mastery.
Besides, not every Jedi has "gold-plated" lightsabers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
fine leather boots, assorted droids, personal starfighters, and various other items a typical humble monk needs.
Typical humble monks don't go on missions (many times dangerous) across the galaxy. Therefore, they do need the material you mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
That's the sort of accommodation that you get in a royal suite at a five star hotel. Humble ascetic monks my arse.
First, on a royal suite at a five star hotel, you don't pay for space only. Second, you can see on the movies their rooms and how empty and simple they are. And third, you seem to forget that the Temple has a huge library, computer rooms, holo rooms, etc, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Okay, I wasn't completely fair in that assessment. There is one purpose it serves, which is to show off.
From this picture you used yourself, you can see that the jedi temple is not just to show off.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Exactly what it says. You claim the temple is as big as it is because it needs to be for the vast numbers of Jedi who live in it.
Among other things.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Yet looking at that picture, it seems to me the room could've been a tenth of that size and still would've been quite adequate.
Maybe, but as it's said: "Growing steadily for the next thousand years the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus. "

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Nothing, I guess. If building large and opulent structures for no other purpose than to show off seems like a Jedi-like thing to do to you, then I guess everything's in jolly good order.
I've explained the purposes, yet you like to ignore them, and say it's just to show off. This article explains very well most of it's purposes, if you like to take a look.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Allow me to throw your "so what?" right back at you. What exactly is your point with this?
For you to read this: "A holy place for the local Coruscanti, the Republic hoped by granting the Order land they would build a massive fortress like those they had established on Ossus, Falang Minor, and Haashimut. However, the Order did not wish to entangle themselves with the politics of the capitol or become a symbol of war and opted to build only a small meditative enclave.".

And this: "It wasn't until the Old Sith Wars saw the devastation of Ossus and the Great Jedi Library located there that the Order decided to reestablish its academy at the Sacred Spire. At the behest of the Order's wisest thinkers, the Four Masters began the painstaking task of building the Temple Ziggurat. Growing steadily for the next thousand years the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus. ".

Which answer most of your concerns.

But enough with the off-topic. This topic is about our favourite level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Death Star, but it was a pretty tough choice. The only levels I didn't like were the Raxus Prime ones, and then for the most part only because everything in them is this nasty toxic yellow. No variety. And rusty pieces of scrap metal look like crap no matter how high the number of polygons and resolution of the texture used to render them.
I haven't voted yet, although I'm very inclined to go for TIE Fighter Factory. I like the whole ISD theme.



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Old 12-29-2010, 09:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexrd View Post
No. Statues and busts are not meant to be decorative. As I said, they are made as a sign of honor and respect.
That may be so (even though it sounds a lot like attachment, another unjedilike thing), but they do not perform a practical, useful function. Therefore, they are superfluous and decorative.

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It does. And it's not a first on the Star Wars universe.
The fact that the temple still stands even though a lot of these columns have collapsed shows they are not structurally essential.

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Tailor-made?! From what I know, the Jedi robes are simple, specifically to show their modesty.
They're simple in the same way the Pope's clothing is simple. They may have started out simple, but now they're available in a range of different colors, materials (see Anakin's leather vest) and patterns (Jocasta Nu). Plus I wouldn't call even the ordinary robes simple, not with their elaborately overlapping layers. And then you have someone like Shaak Ti, who wears jewelry all over her face. When was the last time you saw a nun with jewelry?

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Electrum was a rare metal once used in lightsaber construction as a sign of Force mastery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum:
Quote:
Electrum is a naturally occurring alloy of gold and silver.
Yeah. Gold-****ing-plated. And you know why? As Plinkett points out in his review, Jackson was cast in the films to appeal to black people. It's the exact same reason why he has a gold-plated lighsaber. It's bling, which is just about the pinnacle of vanity.

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Besides, not every Jedi has "gold-plated" lightsabers.
But they can! That's the point! How exactly is Windu carrying a gold-plated lightsaber different from a high-ranking priest carrying a gold-plated crucifix? It's showing off. "I'm holier/stronger in the Force than thou, so I get to carry this gold-plated bauble to rub it in your face."

Quote:
Typical humble monks don't go on missions (many times dangerous) across the galaxy. Therefore, they do need the material you mentioned.
Oh sure. But then don't go saying "no possessions". As it stands, it's "no possessions... eeexcept all of this stuff that they may or may not need some time in the future". But I imagine the excuse is the same as with earthly religions. It's not property of the individual, it belongs to the church. Right?

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First, on a royal suite at a five star hotel, you don't pay for space only. Second, you can see on the movies their rooms and how empty and simple they are.
Can I? Somehow I don't recall that. I remember the Council Chamber (on top of, appropriately, an ivory tower), some classrooms, briefing rooms, and a meditation chamber. Don't recall seeing any appartments. Where exactly did they appear?

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And third, you seem to forget that the Temple has a huge library, computer rooms, holo rooms, etc, etc...
No I don't, I only assigned half the interior space to residential facilities, the other half is for the other stuff you mentioned. Seems reasonable to me.

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From this picture you used yourself, you can see that the jedi temple is not just to show off.
Let me congratulate you on your magnificently constructed straw man. You imply I was talking about the whole temple while you're in fact very well aware I was referring ony to the vast room seen in the movie screenshot.

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Maybe, but as it's said: "Growing steadily for the next thousand years the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus. "
Yes, so? I don't see any of those in the screenshot (or anywhere else in the films, for that matter). I want you to tell me what the purpose of that room is. With most rooms in most buildings it's easy to tell just by looking. A library is for storing books. A kitchen is for cooking meals. But what is that room for? There's nothing in it that would perform any kind of useful function.

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I've explained the purposes, yet you like to ignore them, and say it's just to show off. This article explains very well most of it's purposes, if you like to take a look.
Oh... you used the same straw man again. It's not as impressive as the first time, you know.

Quote:
For you to read this: "A holy place for the local Coruscanti, the Republic hoped by granting the Order land they would build a massive fortress like those they had established on Ossus, Falang Minor, and Haashimut. However, the Order did not wish to entangle themselves with the politics of the capitol or become a symbol of war and opted to build only a small meditative enclave.".
Ya, because they already had a few massive temples elsewhere.

Quote:
And this: "It wasn't until the Old Sith Wars saw the devastation of Ossus and the Great Jedi Library located there that the Order decided to reestablish its academy at the Sacred Spire. At the behest of the Order's wisest thinkers, the Four Masters began the painstaking task of building the Temple Ziggurat. Growing steadily for the next thousand years the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus. ".
You keep repeating that as if it has some kind of relevance to what we're discussing. I quite honestly don't see it. I don't see how any of this is relevant to the current temple being an opulent and vulgar show of wealth and power.

Quote:
But enough with the off-topic. This topic is about our favourite level.
Yeah, and what a lively topic it is.
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Old 12-29-2010, 10:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
That may be so (even though it sounds a lot like attachment, another unjedilike thing), but they do not perform a practical, useful function. Therefore, they are superfluous and decorative.
To be remembered. Just as in real life.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
The fact that the temple still stands even though a lot of these columns have collapsed shows they are not structurally essential.
How can you say "a lot", when you don't even know how many there are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
They're simple in the same way the Pope's clothing is simple. They may have started out simple, but now they're available in a range of different colors, materials (see Anakin's leather vest) and patterns (Jocasta Nu). Plus I wouldn't call even the ordinary robes simple, not with their elaborately overlapping layers. And then you have someone like Shaak Ti, who wears jewelry all over her face. When was the last time you saw a nun with jewelry?
As I said, let's leave the religious part for another place. And you must be the only one who think the Jedi robes are elaborative. As for Shaak Ti, it has to do with Troguta's tradition, not vanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum:

Yeah. Gold-****ing-plated. And you know why?
Did you read the rest, or you just want to ignore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
As Plinkett points out in his review, Jackson was cast in the films to appeal to black people.
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
It's the exact same reason why he has a gold-plated lighsaber. It's bling, which is just about the pinnacle of vanity.
Now I'm starting to think you are just trolling. What part of the "as a sign of Force mastery" you don't understand? It's all symbolic.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
But they can! That's the point!
No, not everyone can. And the purpose of the electrum is stated above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Oh sure. But then don't go saying "no possessions". As it stands, it's "no possessions... eeexcept all of this stuff that they may or may not need some time in the future".
No. Material necessary to complete a mission does not promote possession or "show off".

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
But I imagine the excuse is the same as with earthly religions. It's not property of the individual, it belongs to the church. Right?
If you would like to discuss religion, maybe it's a good idea to create a topic on the right section. Not here.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Can I? Somehow I don't recall that. I remember the Council Chamber (on top of, appropriately, an ivory tower), some classrooms, briefing rooms, and a meditation chamber. Don't recall seeing any appartments. Where exactly did they appear?
Yoda's chamber?

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
No I don't, I only assigned half the interior space to residential facilities, the other half is for the other stuff you mentioned. Seems reasonable to me.
Indeed it does. Nothing unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Let me congratulate you on your magnificently constructed straw man. You imply I was talking about the whole temple while you're in fact very well aware I was referring ony to the vast room seen in the movie screenshot.
No, I wasn't. And even if you were talking about the hall, how is that a sign of show off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Yes, so? I don't see any of those in the screenshot (or anywhere else in the films, for that matter). I want you to tell me what the purpose of that room is. With most rooms in most buildings it's easy to tell just by looking. A library is for storing books. A kitchen is for cooking meals. But what is that room for? There's nothing in it that would perform any kind of useful function.
The main hall? The same purpose as any other hall. And maybe you don't see than in the movies (which actually can be seen), but you see them in the level, which you complained about in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Oh... you used the same straw man again. It's not as impressive as the first time, you know.
How is that a strawman?

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Ya, because they already had a few massive temples elsewhere.
To store historical artifacts and information related to the order, as the article says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
You keep repeating that as if it has some kind of relevance to what we're discussing. I quite honestly don't see it. I don't see how any of this is relevant to the current temple being an opulent and vulgar show of wealth and power.
Yes you do, but you just want to ignore it. You say the temple is opulent and just to show off. I say it's not, you accuse me of using a strawman when a picture you posted shows that you're wrong, and the quote I made says: "the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus." which justifies why it is so big.

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Originally Posted by Sordid Dreams View Post
Yeah, and what a lively topic it is.
Lively or not, it's not an excuse for off-topic. So cut it off. Well, maybe a moderator will.



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Old 12-29-2010, 12:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Alexrd View Post
To be remembered. Just as in real life.
That doesn't meet any definition of "practical" that I recall.

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How can you say "a lot", when you don't even know how many there are?
Because I've played the level and seen them lying around.

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You must be the only one who think the Jedi robes are elaborative.
Well they're a lot more elaborate than what I wear every day, that's for sure. Not very practical, either, but then pockets don't seem to have been invented yet anywhere in the Star Wars galaxy, so I'll let that slide. Overlapping neck lines, wide sleeves, and huge billowing hooded cloaks serve no practical purpose and are nothing more than extravagant waste of cloth.

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As for Shaak Ti, it has to do with Troguta's tradition, not vanity.
Again with the attachments. Aren't Jedi supposed to, like, let go of this kind of stuff?

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Now I'm starting to think you are just trolling. What part of the "as a sign of Force mastery" you don't understand? It's all symbolic.
Oh I do understand that. I just think it's a little too convenient that the Jedi chose the symbol of Force mastery to be the same as the symbol of wealth and power.

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No, not everyone can.
Any evidence for that? AFAIK a Jedi designs his own lightsaber however they see fit.

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Yoda's chamber?
If you're referring to the room Yoda's seen sitting in on a few occasions (such as when talking with Anakin in Ep3), that doesn't seem like a living space at all. There's just a chair for him to sit in and nothing else, so I thought that was a meditation chamber.

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No, I wasn't. And even if you were talking about the hall, how is that a sign of show off?
How isn't it? I asked you before and you ignored the question, so I'll just ask again. If the huge hall isn't just for showing off, then what practical purpose does it serve? Why does it need to be so vast and cavernous and empty?

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The main hall? The same purpose as any other hall. And maybe you don't see than in the movies (which actually can be seen), but you see them in the level, which you complained about in the first place.
Spell it out for me, please.

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How is that a strawman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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To store historical artifacts and information related to the order, as the article says.
Yes, so?

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You say the temple is just to show off.
I never said that. If you think otherwise, I dare you to quote me where I did.

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I say it's not, you accuse me of using a strawman when a picture you posted shows that you're wrong, and the quote I made says: "the Temple incorporated various pieces of historical works and architecture from their past, including tiles and stained-glass mosaics from the lost complex on Ossus." which justifies why it is so big.
So stained-glass mosaics and tiles need cavernous rooms that serve no purpose, do they? That doesn't even make any sense.

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Lively or not, it's not an excuse for off-topic. So cut it off. Well, maybe a moderator will.
Well when they do, then I'll think about it. But I'm not going to shut up just because you tell me to, mister. I see nothing wrong with just following wherever the discussion leads. If you don't want to continue this conversation, then don't. Nothing could be easier.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:37 AM   #8
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First 7 posts split from "[PC]Favourite Level" thread.
Carry on.


Gold plating or solid gold? Easy explanation for that besides just 'bling'. Mace might have an allergy to other metals. For instance, I can only wear 14K or higher gold. I can't do metals with any nickel in them at all (which rules out most steel and other alloys), because I have a severe skin reaction in under an hour. Someone who spends that much time with a lightsaber in hand has to have something they aren't allergic to.

I won't deny the fact that Jackson may well have requested the gold plating to go along with his request for the purple blade color, however.


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Old 01-04-2011, 02:24 AM   #9
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Even assuming such a problem exists (for which there is zero evidence anywhere), there are other ways to address it besides making the thing out of solid gold. Like, for example, painting the offending metal with a non-irritant paint or wrapping the hilt in leather. Or making it out of plastic. Or ceramics. We make brake discs out of ceramic compounds and guns out of plastics, so they're plenty strong. Carbon fiber? Kevlar? Quite a few very strong materials to choose from even in our primitive planet-bound civilization, so I don't buy the medical necessity justification. Hell, he could've made it out of wood if he wanted to. But he chose gold. I think that says something.

And I have no idea if Jackson requested it or not. If, as Plinkett thinks, he was cast in the role in order to make the films appeal to black people (which seems entirely plausible to me), then he may well have had nothing to do with it. But regardless of the meta-reason for why Windu's lightsaber is made of gold, the fact is it is in the movie, and as such it does say something about the character who made it and uses it.

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Old 01-04-2011, 07:38 PM   #10
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If, as Plinkett thinks, he was cast in the role in order to make the films appeal to black people (which seems entirely plausible to me)
There is no evidence for that either, and in my opinion that's a very racist way of thinking.



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Old 01-05-2011, 04:02 AM   #11
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Didn't like that DLC much. Krome had that level (several times) in their version. I enjoyed that more, it was a bit darker.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:10 AM   #12
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There is no evidence for that either.
Actually there is some indirect evidence for that, which Plinkett presents. There's no denying that Jackson has a lot more mainstream appeal than other black actors, like Morgan Freeman and others he mentions. There has to be a reason why he was cast into this completely inappropriate role instead of one of the other, more suitable candidates. Now I grant you, it is entirely possible the reason was just somebody's incompetence. But given how unfocused the movies are and how many different target groups they attempt to appeal to, it seems more likely to me that his presence was another one of those attempts. The fact that he has a gold-plated, bling lightsaber seems to support that interpretation. If it was just incompetence, there would be no reason for him to have that. Maybe it's coincidence, but to me it seems calculated and intentional.

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in my opinion that's a very racist way of thinking
I see nothing racist about thinking that an actor was cast in a role that doesn't suit him in order to appeal to a minority with which he is popular and that probably wouldn't go see the film if he wasn't in it. Whether or not that actor and minority are black is just incidental.
Now what really is racist are some of the aliens in the movies. Like the slimey, amoral space-Jew Watto, or the incompetent Neimoidians with the ridiculously overblown Asian accents. Or this thing, which of course is a rather shocking caricature of these. But that's a topic for a whole another discussion, and I know how much you dislike going off-topic.
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:02 AM   #13
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There's no denying that Jackson has a lot more mainstream appeal than other black actors, like Morgan Freeman and others he mentions. There has to be a reason why he was cast into this completely inappropriate role instead of one of the other, more suitable candidates.
How is it an inappropriate role?

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The fact that he has a gold-plated, bling lightsaber seems to support that interpretation.


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If it was just incompetence, there would be no reason for him to have that.
Or maybe he asked to have that?

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I see nothing racist about thinking that an actor was cast in a role that doesn't suit him in order to appeal to a minority with which he is popular and that probably wouldn't go see the film if he wasn't in it. Whether or not that actor and minority are black is just incidental.
Again I ask: How doesn't Mace Windu's role suit him? What's wrong with him? And how can you say now that being black is just incidental after you said "he was cast in the role in order to make the films appeal to black people (which seems entirely plausible to me)"?

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Now what really is racist are some of the aliens in the movies. Like the slimey, amoral space-Jew Watto, or the incompetent Neimoidians with the ridiculously overblown Asian accents. Or this thing, which of course is a rather shocking caricature of these. But that's a topic for a whole another discussion, and I know how much you dislike going off-topic.
I see nothing racist with that. Accents and behaviour have to be based on real life humans. English or not is irrelevant. And to attribute races to them is again another racist way of thinking. But you are right, it is for another topic.



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Old 01-05-2011, 11:28 AM   #14
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How is it an inappropriate role?
Because Jackson isn't so good with sitting around and being wise. Just try to remember what films he's been in, and I guarantee you the ones that come to mind are the ones where he points guns and shouts a lot.

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Or maybe he asked to have that?
Maybe. Maybe he didn't.

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And how can you say now that being black is just incidental after you said "he was cast in the role in order to make the films appeal to black people (which seems entirely plausible to me)"?
Because that's the target audience in question? I really don't see what your point is here.

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I see nothing racist with that.
Yeah, that's kinda the problem, isn't it?

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Accents and behaviour have to be based on real life humans.
No they don't.

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And to attribute races to them is again another racist way of thinking.
Exactly my point. So why did Lucas do it? Why did he make them caricatures of foreigners?
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Old 01-05-2011, 01:08 PM   #15
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Because Jackson isn't so good with sitting around and being wise.
That's a matter of opinion.

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Just try to remember what films he's been in, and I guarantee you the ones that come to mind are the ones where he points guns and shouts a lot.
So, in your opinion, an actor should only accept roles similar to the ones he had before. Interesting.

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Maybe. Maybe he didn't.
That's right. It's all assumptions.

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Because that's the target audience in question? I really don't see what your point is here.
The target audience is black people?! I never thought Star Wars was about race...

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Yeah, that's kinda the problem, isn't it?
No problem at all.

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No they don't.
They don't? How would you understand the behaviour, intention, etc, of a character without human traits?

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Exactly my point. So why did Lucas do it? Why did he make them caricatures of foreigners?
I'm not the one who sees caricatures of foreigners on those characters. Therefore I can't answer your question.



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Old 01-05-2011, 02:28 PM   #16
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That's a matter of opinion.
No it's not. See? I can make an assertion too.

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So, in your opinion, an actor should only accept roles similar to the ones he had before. Interesting.
Again with the straw men. I wasn't talking about why an actor should or shouldn't accept roles at all, let alone about a specific reason. What I was talking about was why the filmmakers wanted to have him in that role, and I think you damn well know it.

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That's right. It's all assumptions.
Actually in my case it's inference based on indirect evidence. In yours it's just a contrarian speculation with nothing holding it up.

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The target audience is black people?!
I do think Jackson's casting was an attempt to broaden the appeal of the films in that direction, yes.

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I never thought Star Wars was about race...
Really? So the Empire's xenophobia and pro-human bias escaped you? Even in the Original Trilogy there's a very subtle subtext of all the Rebels having American accents and all the Imperials being Brits. I guess you didn't notice that.

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They don't? How would you understand the behaviour, intention, etc, of a character without human traits?
So I guess you had no idea what Poggle the Lesser was on about until you watched a version with subtitles, huh?
On a deeper level, it may not have occurred to you that maybe we shouldn't be able to understand those things about alien characters because they're alien. If you have aliens who think, feel, and act like humans, then why not just have humans? Admittedly this problem isn't limited to SW, the vast majority of science fiction suffers from it.

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I'm not the one who sees caricatures of foreigners on those characters. Therefore I can't answer your question.
So on the one hand you argue that they have human traits for a reason, and on the other hand you can't see those traits? It seems to me you're just arguing this way or that depending on what suits you, ie. whichever position allows you to say something contrary to what I'm saying. You seem to have no problem arguing both ways within the same post, which to me indicates you're being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. Which in turn makes me not want to waste time talking to you anymore. So I'll give you one more chance, either you straighten up in your next post or this conversation is over.
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:15 PM   #17
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What I was talking about was why the filmmakers wanted to have him in that role, and I think you damn well know it.
Because he asked for it.

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Actually in my case it's inference based on indirect evidence. In yours it's just a contrarian speculation with nothing holding it up.
Indirect evidence? Where?

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I do think Jackson's casting was an attempt to broaden the appeal of the films in that direction, yes.
How? What does one thing have to do with the other?

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Really? So the Empire's xenophobia and pro-human bias escaped you? Even in the Original Trilogy there's a very subtle subtext of all the Rebels having American accents and all the Imperials being Brits. I guess you didn't notice that.
I'm not talking in-universe. I'm talking about the Star Wars brand. It was never about race.

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So I guess you had no idea what Poggle the Lesser was on about until you watched a version with subtitles, huh?
Even Poggle the Lesser has humanoid traits.

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If you have aliens who think, feel, and act like humans, then why not just have humans? Admittedly this problem isn't limited to SW, the vast majority of science fiction suffers from it.
Indeed. The purpose is to have a variety of aliens on a big galaxy, but the aliens themselves are played by human beings. (most of them)

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So on the one hand you argue that they have human traits for a reason, and on the other hand you can't see those traits?
I see human traits (because they are played by humans), not caricatures of foreigners. And I'm the one with strawmen...

Feel free to leave the conversation, because I will too. This is not about the Jedi Temple anymore...



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Old 01-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #18
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Because he asked for it.
So what? I seriously doubt the producers of a 350 million dollar film trilogy give out roles just because an actor asks, even if he's a famous one. And I don't even know if he did ask. Where are you getting that from?

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Indirect evidence? Where?
A few posts above.

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How? What does one thing have to do with the other?
I'm sorry, I've tried to explain this about three times already. If you haven't picked it up by now, I doubt you would if I kept trying.

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I'm not talking in-universe. I'm talking about the Star Wars brand. It was never about race.
Oh, right. You think a movie about a bunch of white Americans fighting a bunch of white Brits in which the only black guy is a backstabbing con man is equally interesting and appealing to black people as it is to white people? I commend you on your deep understanding of the human psyche, sir.

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Even Poggle the Lesser has humanoid traits.
Among which there isn't a ridiculous and offensive racist accent.

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Indeed. The purpose is to have a variety of aliens on a big galaxy, but the aliens themselves are played by human beings. (most of them)
See, I would buy that excuse in case of, say, Star Trek, which is a low-budget TV show. Or the original trilogy. But the prequels, with their heavy use of CGI? Nah-uh. Lucas could've totally had fully CGI aliens that actually looked like aliens, not weird deformed people with green skin and a racist accent. I chalk it up to lack of creativity.

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I see human traits (because they are played by humans), not caricatures of foreigners. And I'm the one with strawmen...
I don't see why you'd defend yourself by pointing out that you're insensitive and don't see it, but oh well. Who cares.

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Feel free to leave the conversation, because I will too. This is not about the Jedi Temple anymore...
Well we could've talked about that. Except you quit that conversation too, and instead of resuming it now that it's been split into its own topic you decided to derail the thread by starting a conversation about racism. Which I'm perfectly fine with, but you don't get to whine about it being off-topic now that it hasn't gone your way. You picked the off-topic topic, mister, not me.
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:47 PM   #19
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Uh..... this is an interesting thread....

My only point to consider - who said, in any book anywhere (I am really asking), that diamonds and "gold" had any special value in the SW universe? Why does gold have any significance there other than that it looks shiny?

The fallacy I see you committing, Sordid Dreams, is that you assume that because our universe values these things, the SW universe values them exactly the same.

Beyond that oversight, I like the arguments from both sides.

Buddhist temples have lots of bling around them.... do we deny that they live ascetic lives?


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Old 01-05-2011, 06:08 PM   #20
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My only point to consider - who said, in any book anywhere (I am really asking), that diamonds and "gold" had any special value in the SW universe? Why does gold have any significance there other than that it looks shiny?
According to Wookieepedia, gold is a 'strategic metal' in the SW universe and apparently valuable enough to serve as the basis of at least one currency.

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Buddhist temples have lots of bling around them.... do we deny that they live ascetic lives?
Eh, I wouldn't call them entirely ascetic. Not extremely so, anyway. I just can't get over this habit of both real and fictional religions of celebrating their humility and ascetism by building extravagant, palatial edifices. What's that all about.

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