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Old 05-02-2011, 08:39 AM   #41
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I have to admit, I thought this was pretty much an April Fool's joke; but after a while it was pretty disarming that this actually happened. Honestly, I'd thought that he'd just end up like Jimmy Hoffa in a netherworld of eternal obscurity. P. cool.

Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Alexrd
I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.
Pretty much; it's as much a Muslim tradition as cremation is a Hindu one. Really, most Muslims are good ol' fashioned, buried-in-the-ground; there's nothing particularly exclusively Muslim (read: exotic paganism) about it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:18 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.
Kind of puts Americans on the same level of those that took to the street celebrating 9/11/2001. Only Bin Ladin was the aggressor that started it.

I’ll admit celebrating a death, any death irks me, but celebrating the death of what Bin Ladin has come to symbolize is understandable in my opinion.
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Thanks. I'd just recommend adding intelligence agencies to that list.
Very true! Could even add the politicians to the list for at last letting the intelligence agencies and military define the information gathered instead of the politicians putting their own spin on it and having the military invade Fiji.

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Old 05-02-2011, 11:27 AM   #43
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As an Army guy, I'm jealous of the SEALs that got to pull this off. Congrats to them though, those DEVGRU guys don't mess around.

It'll be interesting to see how this affects Al Queada (sorry about the spelling). I think that the best we can hope for is for them to splinter and begin infighting. Still dangerous, but their capability to plan an execute attacks would be significantly diminished.
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:44 PM   #44
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If it were anyone else, I'd agree with the sentiment that celebrating is a little messed up. But this is Osama Bin Laden - public enemy #1. With him dead, the world has a little bit less of a cause to be fearful. And I hope it's the beginning of the end for the people of the United States and our fellow nations having to be afraid every time they go into an airport or train stations.


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Old 05-02-2011, 04:51 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by adamqd View Post
I think the burial at sea was to avoid some kind of extremist shrine if he were buried, or left in the hands of his family. Throw him in the sea, a drop in the Ocean... I think the Muslim tradition part is the "Disposal within 24 hours" rather than the Method, which could of course just be public relations or coincidence, rather than respect for the body.
No, it's the method too. Prayers were recited, the body was washed and wrapped in cloth, etc. It'd be just as impossible to turn his body into a shrine if he was wrapped in a pigskin and fed to starving hogs, or even just wrapped and burned, or dumped into the ocean without ceremony. Public relations for who? The people who think he deserves dignity? We shouldn't pander to that sort of person.

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It's one last finger given to the extremists - we terminated our enemy, and now we're treating him with -respect-. Just one more sign that we're better than them in every way that matters.
We have enough of those 'signs'. Anyone who doesn't see who's better isn't going to change their mind.

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Originally Posted by Alexrd View Post
Obama just assured his re-election.
Although he had little to nothing to do with this, other than signing a piece of paper he was presented with. What president wouldn't sign that particular order? The number of people talking about this as proof of how great Obama is, and how clearly Democrats get things done, pisses me off. No political figure deserves any credit for this, left or right.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
Though, I have to admit, most of the images of Americans celebrating gives off a really overly-jingoistic vibe. Unfortunately, it reinforces the stereotype of Americans as debased, aggressive (DEY DOOK ER JOBS) ignoramuses. I guess you can just say "Well, they're New Yorkers", but whatever.
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Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Kind of puts Americans on the same level of those that took to the street celebrating 9/11/2001.
If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.

Osama killed thousands of my countrymen. This included family friends and almost my own father. He attacked my country without provocation. He was a symbol to those who have tried to kill me, and killed many of my friends over the last 10 years. He gloated about all this, and wanted to attack again. He very likely could have. If celebrating his death makes me overly jingoistic, debased, aggressive, racist, and ignorant, those words must have changed their definition since I last checked. The truly ignorant thing is criticizing people for celebrating the death of the man who wanted to kill them, did all of this, and planned to do more.

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Very true! Could even add the politicians to the list for at last letting the intelligence agencies and military define the information gathered instead of the politicians putting their own spin on it and having the military invade Fiji.
I'm hesitant to praise politicians just for being less incompetent and arrogant than they ordinarily are. Congress' attempts to hamstring the US intelligence community over the past 40 years or so, as a power grab in the endless tug of war between the branches of government, have been over the top and shameful. The fact that politicians backing off a little for one mission is seen as them being generous illustrates how institutionalized this crippling has become. I'll stop here, to avoid getting too off topic and going off on a rant about the many flaws in Congressional oversight.

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As an Army guy, I'm jealous of the SEALs that got to pull this off. Congrats to them though, those DEVGRU guys don't mess around.

It'll be interesting to see how this affects Al Queada (sorry about the spelling). I think that the best we can hope for is for them to splinter and begin infighting. Still dangerous, but their capability to plan an execute attacks would be significantly diminished.
One thing you'll learn: The media always gives the SEALs credit. I really have no clue why, but according to the news, there've been things I've participated in that were apparently done by the SEALs, not the 75th or anything else I've been involved with. That's news to me. However, considering the info that it was a joint CIA + SEAL attack is coming from the government in this case, it's actually accurate. No hate here for the SEALs, they're excellent warriors, just bemusement at their higher media profile.

I'd say infighting is unlikely, as is any kind of disintegration. Osama was in hiding, and his influence on AQ's day to day operation was very limited. The people who have been actually leading AQ for quite a while now are still around. Honestly, I almost prefer that to a bunch of splinter groups, since the more well known a terrorist group is, the harder it is for them to put any plans into action without information about them getting to us.



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Old 05-02-2011, 05:24 PM   #46
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I don't personally understand celebrating Bin Laden's death. He ceased to have much importance a while ago, even if he did remain an important symbol for AQ. That said, though, I'm not an American, and nothing he's done has really affected me in any meaningful way.

I'm more interested now in how Pakistan's Government and Security Forces answer some pretty serious questions.






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Old 05-02-2011, 05:57 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Liverandbacon View Post
If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.
Let's look at the rest of what I wrote in that same post.... I guess it has just become a habit in Kavar's to quote a line and ignore the rest of what someone wrote. Which is the reason I'm done posting in Kavars. Only this topic lead me to believe this thread would be safe. For what it is worth, like I wrote above I understand people celebrating.
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Let's look at the rest of what I wrote in that same post.... I guess it has just become a habit in Kavar's to quote a line and ignore the rest of what someone wrote. Which is the reason I'm done posting in Kavars. Only this topic lead me to believe this thread would be safe. For what it is worth, like I wrote above I understand people celebrating.
I was mainly objecting to PastramiX's post. TBH your post just confused me because you said it was understandable, yet you also said it put our citizens on the same level as the enemy. I wasn't really sure which you saw as the primary point, the sort of thing that would be easier to interpret if I knew the 'tone of voice' that you were typing each part with, sadly impossible to communicate with text.

I try to avoid taking things out of context (which I agree is done far too often here), but I really didn't know how to make sense of two seemingly contradictory points you were making. TBH, I still can't figure out whether you understand it but think it puts them on the same level, or understand it but see why some people might think it puts them on the same level (subtly but importantly different). It's my fault for not making my confusion clearer.

I'm sorry that this misunderstanding has contributed to your decision to stop posting in Kavar's. For what it's worth, I valued your posts, because although we didn't always agree (didn't always disagree either), you tended to argue your points in a rational manner, using real evidence, and not just baseless 'you're wrong because you're wrong' opinions.



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Old 05-02-2011, 06:34 PM   #49
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I don't personally understand celebrating Bin Laden's death. He ceased to have much importance a while ago, even if he did remain an important symbol for AQ. That said, though, I'm not an American, and nothing he's done has really affected me in any meaningful way.
In the USA, symbolism is a big deal. Americans on average have most of their basic material needs assured (relative to the third world at least), so we tend to get excited about things that are often purely emotional. It's why we have a lot of religious and spiritual individuals in spite of our consumerist culture, for example. We know water is going to come out of the tap, so we make sure the flag is safe instead. It's also why we sue each other for the most trivial reasons.

Yeah, symbolism is everything here in the US. Bin Laden may not have any strategic value in the war on terror, but we'll still feel really good from the closure provided by the SEAL that put a bullet in his head.


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Old 05-02-2011, 07:11 PM   #50
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I hope he has fun swimming with the fishes, However in my opinion it doesn't justify the thousands of innocent lives lost, 9/11 should have never happened.

But we still need to stay focused, and our minds sharp, where there is one trying to cause death and suffering there is another, That could do far more damage!!


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Old 05-02-2011, 08:02 PM   #51
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But we still need to stay focused, and our minds sharp, where there is one trying to cause death and suffering there is another, That could do far more damage!!
So the US should maintain their aggressive foreign policies incase someone (somewhere) may try to do "damage"?

You realise this habit the US has of involving itself in all the worlds affairs is the reason why it's such a hated country right?


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Old 05-02-2011, 08:13 PM   #52
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, yet you also said it put our citizens on the same level as the enemy
Because I don't see all the Muslims dancing in the streets after 9/11/2001 as our enemy. I can see the reasons some of them were happy to see bad things happen to us beyond them being our enemy. I did not like it, but I could understand it.

Also no problem Liverandbacon, you have nothing to do with my limiting my exposure to Kavars in the furture. You just hit upon the reason.

On slightly unrelated question: Is it proper to wave a nations flag (the USA in the case) back and forth as hard as you can? Like cheerleader would a school flag at a football game. Saw a few people doing it last night and I kind of felt the same way I do when I see someone burn the American flag. I can accept it, but I don't like it.

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Old 05-02-2011, 08:14 PM   #53
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One thing you'll learn: The media always gives the SEALs credit. I really have no clue why, but according to the news, there've been things I've participated in that were apparently done by the SEALs, not the 75th or anything else I've been involved with. That's news to me. However, considering the info that it was a joint CIA + SEAL attack is coming from the government in this case, it's actually accurate. No hate here for the SEALs, they're excellent warriors, just bemusement at their higher media profile.

I'd say infighting is unlikely, as is any kind of disintegration. Osama was in hiding, and his influence on AQ's day to day operation was very limited. The people who have been actually leading AQ for quite a while now are still around. Honestly, I almost prefer that to a bunch of splinter groups, since the more well known a terrorist group is, the harder it is for them to put any plans into action without information about them getting to us.
Good point. I may have underestimated the integrity of their chain command; but at the same time I feel like infighting is a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the majority of AQ leadership under Bin Laden Saudi? Isn't there a possibility that another group would seize power?

I'm still in college with an ROTC scholarship, so I have limited experience, but everything I've read from sources on the ground makes it seem like it was a hassle to make all the factions (the various tribes, ethnicities, nationalities, etc.) in AQ work together.

Also, wouldn't infighting give us some advantage? True, we'd have less actionable intelligence, but wouldn't the overall weakening of our enemy be advantageous?

Slightly off topic: 75th would be Rangers, correct? They won't let me go to Ranger School until I graduate :P
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:29 PM   #54
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*Wonders how long it will take for people to demand to see a death certificate...
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:36 PM   #55
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*Wonders how long it will take for people to demand to see a death certificate...
I'll only accept the long form death certificate.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:46 PM   #56
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Sure the guy was a bad man, but it is puzzling to me seeing everyone(or at least many Americans) celebrating the death of a fellow human being. I mean it makes people look like death is a good thing, I dunno...I suppose to many people affected by 9/11 it is some relief. But to everyone else....I dunno I will shut up now.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:52 PM   #57
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Sure the guy was a bad man, but it is puzzling to me seeing everyone(or at least many Americans) celebrating the death of a fellow human being. I mean it makes people look like death is a good thing, I dunno...I suppose to many people affected by 9/11 it is some relief. But to everyone else....I dunno I will shut up now.
It isn't a celebration of the death of some random guy. It's celebrating the death of someone who orchestrated multiple terrorist attacks that resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent people; and who would have killed many more if he had the capability. Its different. Celebrating the death of someone who has been responsible for the death of my countryman and who would have killed me if he had the chance is not, in my opinion, morally wrong in any way.

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Old 05-02-2011, 08:57 PM   #58
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If someone can't see how celebrating the groundless murder of thousands of innocents is entirely different from celebrating the killing of a man responsible for the deaths of thousands, who wanted to kill more, and had become a symbol to like-minded individuals, they're beyond help.
I wasn't drawing any correlation between the supposed jubilation of "Muslims" on 9/11 with what was experienced today, simply because the situation is incomparable. Quite frankly, there isn't much reason to celebrate here, as irrespective of bin Laden's death, there still remains a considerable threat; a threat that during the manhunt for bin Laden has probably increased to a new level of prominence. Even with the figurehead toppled, there's still the fragmentary cells that will follow the power vacuum, as well as the semi-independent al-Qaeda offshoots that have been operating without direct administration from bin Laden prior to his passing. Quite frankly, it's as monumental as the execution of Saddam Hussein (i.e. of petty consequence).
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If celebrating his death makes me overly jingoistic, debased, aggressive, racist, and ignorant, those words must have changed their definition since I last checked.
I never claimed any of that; I was just saying that the celebrations could be perceived simply as such. One could compare it to the foolhardiness of "Mission Accomplished", in that it's a gross mischaracterization of a "victory".
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The truly ignorant thing is criticizing people for celebrating the death of the man who wanted to kill them, did all of this, and planned to do more.
As I've pointed out, I'm criticizing the fanfare that has been made by some; the insistence that this is a game-changing, tide-turning victory in the War on Terror. The resignation of Mubarak is in many ways more celebratory in terms of against-the-odds, "the bigger they are, the mightier they fall" circumstances that makes this incident seem more like the execution of an obscure ideologue who has little absolute authority to make a tremendous difference.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:38 PM   #59
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It's called closure. To many this is all the closure they needed. It's a relief to know that we finally got him. Sure, he was more a figurehead or whatever, but it feels good to those who lost loved ones on 9/11. To some extent, it was what people criticized Bush for. "We didn't get Bin Laden, but we got 5 of his second in commands." So here we have the top man. Now the next time we take out one of Bin Laden's second in commands, we actually take out the leader. It's also a psychological boost. Bin Laden is the name we know. It's the name the world knows.


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Old 05-02-2011, 09:52 PM   #60
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I wasn't drawing any correlation between the supposed jubilation of "Muslims" on 9/11 with what was experienced today, simply because the situation is incomparable.
So, those people in the "arab street" who were unmistakably jubilant about the Towers attack weren't muslims?

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Quite frankly, there isn't much reason to celebrate here, as irrespective of bin Laden's death, there still remains a considerable threat; a threat that during the manhunt for bin Laden has probably increased to a new level of prominence. Even with the figurehead toppled, there's still the fragmentary cells that will follow the power vacuum, as well as the semi-independent al-Qaeda offshoots that have been operating without direct administration from bin Laden prior to his passing. Quite frankly, it's as monumental as the execution of Saddam Hussein (i.e. of petty consequence).
Depending on how one spins the meaning of "celebrate", it is noteworthy in and of itself b/c he was such an important figure to jihadis in general. However, I'd agree that it is premature to say "well, now that we've bagged bin laden, let's call it a day". Will be interesting to see just how much info about AQ and affiliates is gleaned from the intelligence cache they got on this mission

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As I've pointed out, I'm criticizing the fanfare that has been made by some; the insistence that this is a game-changing, tide-turning victory in the War on Terror. The resignation of Mubarak is in many ways more celebratory in terms of against-the-odds, "the bigger they are, the mightier they fall" circumstances that makes this incident seem more like the execution of an obscure ideologue who has little absolute authority to make a tremendous difference.
It is game changing, not game ending. Sort of a "you can run, but you can't hide" to terrorists worldwide. Still, unseating Mubarak, will likely prove more destabilizing than OBL's death. Two words: Muslim Brotherhood (and no, they are a legitimate concern, not some toothless boogeyman).


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Old 05-02-2011, 10:26 PM   #61
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He had no regard for human life, He even used children for target practice, He started this war to see us Americans cower in fear, Did it work NO!!, I'm am very proud to be American do i believe in violence and death no, However when someone comes to my country and kills with no remorse or regard for human life, yes i have a problem, I come from a very good family, I was born and raised Catholic. I hold my morales and values with a lot of pride.

Am i glad he's gone yes, However i never said it was ok to take a life from someone, I really wished this war never started and i wish that there could have been a peaceful situation.

We did what had to be done to prevent another 9/11, Some may agree or disagree with how i feel, But i have a lot of friends from different country's, Just because someone is from the same country as him, Doesn't make them terrorist, Even after 9/11 i never looked at other people the way some did. I admit we don't all ways think before we react, There are a lot of good people in this world, it's too bad that some try to make others look bad!!


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Old 05-02-2011, 11:02 PM   #62
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So, those people in the "arab street" who were unmistakably jubilant about the Towers attack weren't muslims?
I was referring to the coverage that depicted "Muslims celebrating 9/11" was simply that; "Muslims celebrating 9/11". The connotation that was displayed when media showed those scenes is that "Muslims" includes Muslims anywhere and everywhere, and that they are all are jubilant at the mass murder of Americans. My quotes weren't a question of self-identity and faith vis-a-vis questionable ethics, but rather a criticism of the overgeneralization and homogenization of Muslim-majority societies that was present in the scenes of 9/11-fest. Anything else is simply reading too much into it, frankly.
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It is game changing, not game ending. Sort of a "you can run, but you can't hide" to terrorists worldwide. Still, unseating Mubarak, will likely prove more destabilizing than OBL's death. Two words: Muslim Brotherhood (and no, they are a legitimate concern, not some toothless boogeyman).
I wasn't really making a correlation between a rise of radical Islamism and the downfall of Mubarak, but rather illustrating the point that bin Laden's death isn't the ragtag Rebel Alliance taking down the expansive Galactic Empire here; hell, someone can probably argue that it's the opposite. My point was that it's hardly some grand triumph of good over evil with insurmountable odds factored in; it's more like a cat catching a mouse. I sure don't like vermin in my house any day, but it's not like the cat took on a pack of wolves here: it's just a goddamn mouse, even if it is a big one.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:49 PM   #63
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:52 PM   #64
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Good point. I may have underestimated the integrity of their chain command; but at the same time I feel like infighting is a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the majority of AQ leadership under Bin Laden Saudi? Isn't there a possibility that another group would seize power?

I'm still in college with an ROTC scholarship, so I have limited experience, but everything I've read from sources on the ground makes it seem like it was a hassle to make all the factions (the various tribes, ethnicities, nationalities, etc.) in AQ work together.

Also, wouldn't infighting give us some advantage? True, we'd have less actionable intelligence, but wouldn't the overall weakening of our enemy be advantageous?
This is true to a certain extent. Whether or not infighting or ordinary splintering would help or hinder our side depends largely on amount. For instance, very significant infighting would be helpful, while more minor infighting wouldn't be enough to counterbalance the problems splintering would cause us. I just suspect that due to Osama's significantly reduced role in the organization, any such changes won't be very large, since most have already occurred. The main change I can see would be the Pakistan branch receding in importance a bit, as the Yemen branch continues to grow in importance.

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I wasn't drawing any correlation between the supposed jubilation of "Muslims" on 9/11 with what was experienced today, simply because the situation is incomparable. Quite frankly, there isn't much reason to celebrate here, as irrespective of bin Laden's death, there still remains a considerable threat; a threat that during the manhunt for bin Laden has probably increased to a new level of prominence. Even with the figurehead toppled, there's still the fragmentary cells that will follow the power vacuum, as well as the semi-independent al-Qaeda offshoots that have been operating without direct administration from bin Laden prior to his passing. Quite frankly, it's as monumental as the execution of Saddam Hussein (i.e. of petty consequence).I never claimed any of that; I was just saying that the celebrations could be perceived simply as such. One could compare it to the foolhardiness of "Mission Accomplished", in that it's a gross mischaracterization of a "victory".As I've pointed out, I'm criticizing the fanfare that has been made by some; the insistence that this is a game-changing, tide-turning victory in the War on Terror. The resignation of Mubarak is in many ways more celebratory in terms of against-the-odds, "the bigger they are, the mightier they fall" circumstances that makes this incident seem more like the execution of an obscure ideologue who has little absolute authority to make a tremendous difference.
We're actually in agreement that anyone who sees this as anything more than a symbolic victory is being way overoptimistic. I'm still not sure where 'violent', 'debased', and 'overly jingoistic' come into that, but I guess I just misinterpreted you or something.



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Old 05-03-2011, 12:52 AM   #65
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Sure the guy was a bad man, but it is puzzling to me seeing everyone(or at least many Americans) celebrating the death of a fellow human being. I mean it makes people look like death is a good thing, I dunno...I suppose to many people affected by 9/11 it is some relief. But to everyone else....I dunno I will shut up now.
Death is never a solution, You're right about your statement, And yes many were celebrating, What bothers me the most with some peoples attitudes or statements is, America was not the only country hurt by 9/11, that's why we called it the WORLD TRADE CENTER, meaning that all races and religion's were affected by this event, Meaning that all races worked in the same buildings and offices together.

He was clearly a mad man, and evil in it's purest form, He was given the choice of surrender and denied that option, I really wish we could all wish upon a star and wish away war, violence, and hatred, But clearly that is living in a fantasy world, We alll live int his world together, Hopefully someday we can all live in Peace with out violence!


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Old 05-03-2011, 12:54 AM   #66
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I was referring to the coverage that depicted "Muslims celebrating 9/11" was simply that; "Muslims celebrating 9/11". The connotation that was displayed when media showed those scenes is that "Muslims" includes Muslims anywhere and everywhere, and that they are all are jubilant at the mass murder of Americans. My quotes weren't a question of self-identity and faith vis-a-vis questionable ethics, but rather a criticism of the overgeneralization and homogenization of Muslim-majority societies that was present in the scenes of 9/11-fest. Anything else is simply reading too much into it, frankly.
That's fine. Wasn't initially sure what you're point was, but agree that oversimplification only tends to muddy the picture. Given that muslims border on 20+/- % of global population, I never took those pics to really be anything more than anti-American arab-muslims or radicalized muslims outside the ME.


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I wasn't really making a correlation between a rise of radical Islamism and the downfall of Mubarak, but rather illustrating the point that bin Laden's death isn't the ragtag Rebel Alliance taking down the expansive Galactic Empire here; hell, someone can probably argue that it's the opposite. My point was that it's hardly some grand triumph of good over evil with insurmountable odds factored in; it's more like a cat catching a mouse. I sure don't like vermin in my house any day, but it's not like the cat took on a pack of wolves here: it's just a goddamn mouse, even if it is a big one.
No, I understood the basic analogy in terms of power imbalance between OBL vs the US and protestors vs an autocratic govt. Just didn't buy the Egyptian "revolution" to be something to really celebrate b/c I think that the MB will eclipse the "secular" forces that wanted to remove HM and replace him with a more "democratic" regime. I'd agree that taking OBL out, while necessary, was just one more operation in a long war with no real end in sight.


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Old 05-03-2011, 12:57 AM   #67
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That's fine. Wasn't initially sure what you're point was, but agree that oversimplification only tends to muddy the picture. Given that muslims border on 20+/- % of global population, I never took those pics to really be anything more than anti-American arab-muslims or radicalized muslims outside the ME.




No, I understood the basic analogy in terms of power imbalance between OBL vs the US and protestors vs an autocratic govt. Just didn't buy the Egyptian "revolution" to be something to really celebrate b/c I think that the MB will eclipse the "secular" forces that wanted to remove HM and replace him with a more "democratic" regime. I'd agree that taking OBL out, while necessary, was just one more operation in a long war with no real end in sight.
Meaning this war is another Vietnam, Lives lost with no real directive!


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Old 05-03-2011, 02:09 AM   #68
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Meaning this war is another Vietnam, Lives lost with no real directive!
No.



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Old 05-03-2011, 02:53 AM   #69
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I love the picture of Americans celebrating, where this guy in the background is holding up a sign saying: 'Obama 1 - 0 Osama'

That is all I have to say on this topic


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Old 05-03-2011, 04:00 AM   #70
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....................I don't like this place and try not to come in here... but I have to ask.

Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...

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Old 05-03-2011, 04:15 AM   #71
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Meaning this war is another Vietnam, Lives lost with no real directive!
That really isn't an accurate statement for several reasons. First, the nature of our enemy is different. AQ is a multi ethnic and multinational force; the VC and NVA were Vietnamese. Some of the tactics are similar, but the motivation behind each group is different. The VC were fighting because (depending on who you ask) they wanted to unify or free their country. AQ, however, is an international terrorist group. The motivations differ widely upon joining, from anger at western interference (real or perceived) to religious fundamentalists who are just following the orders of their religious leaders. Some would argue that the US didn't have a clear objective upon entering Vietnam, we have clear objectives for each of current fights, including Afghanistan, Iraq (it varies depending on who you ask), and the international pursuit of terrorists.

We have had over 30 years to analyze Vietnam. I feel like we've learned from the mistakes. This isn't a conventional war; there aren't many huge straight up battles to show to the media and boost public opinion. Operations like the one that killed Bin Laden are a key part of this war; the only reason we know about this one is because he is such a symbol.

There are a few parallels, but it's important to draw distinctions.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:35 AM   #72
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I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader. However that's a big arguement I could write essays on, but this isn't about 9/11 or anything, it's about the death of Bin Laden. But let's look at this a minute;

Us british have just had the Royal Wedding, taking the attention off of the Americans, which, as much as I hate to admit it, because I despise America as a whole, is THE power in the world at the moment.

Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...


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Old 05-03-2011, 07:52 AM   #73
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Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...
The next US Presidential elections aren't till November 2012. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, a year and a half is a very long time regarding these things.

This year alone has seen two Middle East Governments fall, one in what I hope are it's death throes, and countless others scrambling to prevent that happening to them, and we've only just reached May.

And while I'm sure this will no doubt give Obama a popularity boost (and let's face it, he needed it), it will by no means make his re-election in 2012 a certainty.

EDIT: And I have to agree with Mim when it comes to the Royal Wedding (not the crap bit, though ). It might have been a big event here, but it ranked pretty low on the agenda for the rest of the world.







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Old 05-03-2011, 08:58 AM   #74
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I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader.
Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.

The only thing surprising about the timing is the fact that they found him at all after almost 10 years. However, the reason it took so long is because the U.S. diverted resources in the wrong direction, Iraq and a “so-called” ally knew where Bin Laden was, but kept feeding the U.S. B.S. for intelligence.

Also no one was paying attention to the Royal Wedding, but the media. The rest of us were wearing out our remotes from having to change the channel every time that that crap came onto the air.

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Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him?
Bin Ladin and his people had guns too and was shooting back.

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Old 05-03-2011, 09:41 AM   #75
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Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...
There seems to be a bit of a mix-up regarding the mission's objectives.

White House Homeland Security Adviser John O. Brennan stated after the raid that "If we had the opportunity to take bin Laden alive, if he didn't present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that."

I guessing him so much as mock roaring would probably be interpreted a threat by the SEALs.

But there's two reports vouching for the 'kill order' statement. If I were a SEAL with a capture order though, I'd still "accidentally" headshot him. Just sayin'.


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Old 05-03-2011, 10:27 AM   #76
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Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.
The Government are lying, corrupt, greedy bastards.

That's my opinion. I think I'm entitled to it. just as you are.


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Old 05-03-2011, 10:33 AM   #77
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However, the reason it took so long is because the U.S. diverted recourses in the wrong direction, Iraq and a “so-called” ally knew where Bin Laden was, but kept the U.S. feeding the U.S. B.S. for intelligence.
I say they be punished with a $250 billion aid package.


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Old 05-03-2011, 11:44 AM   #78
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Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.
too true.

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The only thing surprising about the timing is the fact that they found him at all after almost 10 years. However, the reason it took so long is because the U.S. diverted recourses in the wrong direction, Iraq and a “so-called” ally knew where Bin Laden was, but kept the U.S. feeding the U.S. B.S. for intelligence.
Maybe, maybe not. The US has and had had enough overall resources to fight in Iraq and still do other things. Finding OBL has been a bit like finding Waldo. Didn't help that Pakistan was "hiding him in the open" like that and someone there didn't tell us.

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Also no one was paying attention to the Royal Wedding, but the media. The rest of us were wearing out our remotes from having to change the channel every time that that crap came onto the air.
Yeah, tried to avoid that like the plague. Did catch a segment of SKY news where one of the people referenced Honk Kong Fooey w/regard to some other story. Kind of funny.

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Bin Ladin and his people had guns too and was shooting back.
I guess that's an inconvenient fact, mim. Never figured the guy would allow himself to be taken alive if he could avoid it anyway.

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I guessing him so much as mock roaring would probably be interpreted a threat by the SEALs.

But there's two reports vouching for the 'kill order' statement. If I were a SEAL with a capture order though, I'd still "accidentally" headshot him. Just sayin'.
I'm sure the SEALs know the diff, but don't doubt that there are some that might feel the way you're saying.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 05-03-2011, 11:45 AM   #79
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The Government are lying, corrupt, greedy bastards.

That's my opinion. I think I'm entitled to it. just as you are.
I've never said you were not entitled to your opinion. I can kind of agree with your statement above, but I just would rather look at facts rather than opinions. Even lairs tell the truth once in awhile.

Personally I don’t see how justice could be served no matter the outcome. Capturing Osama alive was not going to bring back any of the victims. I also can’t see asking a soldiers risk themselves further to capture Bin Laden alive just so we can have media spectacle of a trial for the next five or so years. A bullet to the brain and sparing the victims’ families from having to relive 09/11/2001 over and over seems to me the best thing. No it isn’t justice, but I’m of the opinion that justice is a made up concept. The best anyone could ask for in the case is giving the family a little closure.

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Old 05-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #80
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Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...
It may not be official policy, but unofficially the word has been to shoot to kill. There is a book called "Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander's Account of the Hunt for the World's Most Wanted Man" that is about hunting him in Tora Bora in 2004. He says he was told by command to kill him if they found him. I think the reasoning behind that has to do with avoiding a media spectacle of a trial and the morale boost it would give to a large number of Americans (as seen on the news).

As far as justice goes, I can understand an aversion to the death penalty when dealing with a murder or homicide. However, Bin Laden planned multiple terrorist operations as well as calling for attacks on the United States. Capital punishment may not be the answer to the man who stabbed his wife in a fit of anger, but Bin Laden was responsible, either directly or indirectly, for the death of thousands.
This is the wrong thread to bring up a debate about capital punishment, so I won't say anymore. I'm just trying to explain how some people see it as justice.
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