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Old 05-03-2011, 02:23 PM   #81
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From what I understand, they gave him the opportunity to surrender. That was when he grabbed a woman as a shield. BOOM! HEADSHOT!


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Old 05-03-2011, 02:27 PM   #82
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:59 PM   #83
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Talk about a fatal case of Stockholm syndrome.


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Old 05-03-2011, 03:41 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
From what I understand, they gave him the opportunity to surrender. That was when he grabbed a woman as a shield. BOOM! HEADSHOT!
I had read that one of the targets used a woman as a shield; that's why there was one civilian casualty. I didn't see anything about Osama grabbing a shield, though. I doubt that anyone except for the SEALs clearing his room knows the exact circumstances, so I will concede that is a possibility. That being said, I believe that they were ordered not to take him alive and that reports to the contrary are just attempting to save political face. That's just my belief though, I'm only going off of what I read in the book.

I will say that I've seen it reported that he was killed by a double-tap. Which would be more along the lines of BOOMBOOM!

Last edited by Mandalorian Knight; 05-03-2011 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Forgot a sentence, added for clarity.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:49 PM   #85
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That really isn't an accurate statement for several reasons. First, the nature of our enemy is different. AQ is a multi ethnic and multinational force; the VC and NVA were Vietnamese. Some of the tactics are similar, but the motivation behind each group is different. The VC were fighting because (depending on who you ask) they wanted to unify or free their country. AQ, however, is an international terrorist group. The motivations differ widely upon joining, from anger at western interference (real or perceived) to religious fundamentalists who are just following the orders of their religious leaders. Some would argue that the US didn't have a clear objective upon entering Vietnam, we have clear objectives for each of current fights, including Afghanistan, Iraq (it varies depending on who you ask), and the international pursuit of terrorists.

We have had over 30 years to analyze Vietnam. I feel like we've learned from the mistakes. This isn't a conventional war; there aren't many huge straight up battles to show to the media and boost public opinion. Operations like the one that killed Bin Laden are a key part of this war; the only reason we know about this one is because he is such a symbol.

There are a few parallels, but it's important to draw distinctions.
I shouldn't have said it was exactly like Vietnam but in some ways it feels like it, Like i have said yes I'm glad he's been removed, How ever i wished there could have been a better solution, I came on these forums to meet new people, But since this i have only realized that there are a lot of people that come on here and say how they hate us, I don't know what to think, I may be from America in witch I'm very proud to be, Doesn't mean i all ways believe in our ideals, or actions when it comes to these sort of things!!


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Old 05-03-2011, 04:25 PM   #86
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It may not be official policy, but unofficially the word has been to shoot to kill. There is a book called "Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander's Account of the Hunt for the World's Most Wanted Man" that is about hunting him in Tora Bora in 2004. He says he was told by command to kill him if they found him. I think the reasoning behind that has to do with avoiding a media spectacle of a trial and the morale boost it would give to a large number of Americans (as seen on the news).

As far as justice goes, I can understand an aversion to the death penalty when dealing with a murder or homicide. However, Bin Laden planned multiple terrorist operations as well as calling for attacks on the United States. Capital punishment may not be the answer to the man who stabbed his wife in a fit of anger, but Bin Laden was responsible, either directly or indirectly, for the death of thousands.
This is the wrong thread to bring up a debate about capital punishment, so I won't say anymore. I'm just trying to explain how some people see it as justice.
But it's revenge, not justice. That's the thing... people are saying this is justice but what it really is is revenge when it really comes down to it.

Also he never planned those attacks. It was a bunch of Egyptian and Saudi dudes in their own separate cell(s). Bin Laden has only ever really been a figurehead for the organisation. Whatever happened during 9/11 was masterminded by a group who were part of the greater terrorist organisation but people make it seem like Bin Laden picked up a red phone, called the guys who carried out the attack and said "you have a go" like you see in the movies with a US President doing something similar.


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From what I understand, they gave him the opportunity to surrender. That was when he grabbed a woman as a shield. BOOM! HEADSHOT!
Except it didn't happen like that. It was thought that's how it happened, but new info was released that says that never happened. One of his wives actually rushed the soldiers and they shot her in the leg. Bin Laden himself wasn't armed with anything.




Actually, I'm stopping here, this'll be my last post in here.

I can understand why things ended up the way they did and why people feel the way they do. But to me, what happened was a revenge killing. I guess that's what really gets to me the most in a more general sense. In a lot of situations people still feel that if a certain person dies, they'll feel better.

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Old 05-03-2011, 04:55 PM   #87
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My personal interpretation is that it was motivated by politics and not justice. Regardless, it's done now.
And from what I understand, Bin Laden was the overall leader of AQ. While he may not have personally given the go-ahead for a different cell, as the leader he has been held accountable for the actions undertaken by his organization. I'm trying to observe this on a strategic level, but it is clear that isn't the case for everyone. You make a good point regarding people's feeling of catharsis (weather real or perceived).

And I'm sorry to hear that you won't post again. However, given Kavar's reputation, I understand your decision.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:11 PM   #88
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Like I wrote earlier, I don’t agree with the celebration, but I can understand it. Since 2001, the United States taxpayers have spent over 1,189,087,400,000 on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Of that the U.S. has spent more than $400,902,500,000 in Afghanistan alone. More importantly the U.S. has lost 6018 military personal in both Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention how many more that have been wounded. We were told that Bin Ladin was the mastermind behind the attacks of 9/11/2001 by our leaders and his capture/death was the our #1 priority (of course these were the same leaders that said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was working with Al –Qadea). So after almost ten years, over 1,189,087,000 dollars and 6018 lives, I hope you can understand our frustration over not being able to locate this one man. That is why I can understand the celebrations; to me it was more like a huge weight had been taken off this nation shoulders. It wasn’t ding-dong the witch is dead; it was more like we finally after almost 10 years have achieved our goal.


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And I'm sorry to hear that you won't post again. However, given Kavar's reputation, I understand your decision.
Don’t encourage him.

Last edited by mimartin; 05-03-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:52 PM   #89
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Personally, I'm less happy about his death than I am about all of the juicy intel they will get from all that hardware. Multiple computers that OBL couldn't have wiped in time...


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:09 PM   #90
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Like I wrote earlier, I don’t agree with the celebration, but I can understand it. Since 2001, the United States taxpayers have spent over 1,189,087,400,000 on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Of that the U.S. has spent more than $400,902,500,000 in Afghanistan alone. More importantly the U.S. has lost 6018 military personal in both Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention how many more that have been wounded. We were told that Bin Ladin was the mastermind behind the attacks of 9/11/2001 by our leaders and his capture/death was the our #1 priority (of course these were the same leaders that said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was working with Al –Qadea). So after almost ten years, over 1,189,087,000 dollars and 6018 lives, I hope you can understand our frustration over not being able to locate this one man. That is why I can understand the celebrations; to me it was more like a huge weight had been taken off this nation shoulders. It wasn’t ding-dong the witch is dead; it was more like we finally after almost 10 years we have achieved our goal.


Don’t encourage him.
I fear for our future with the recent events that have taken place, I really do!!


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Old 05-03-2011, 08:16 PM   #91
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...because I despise America as a whole...
Well, that's enlightening. Uncle Sam punch ya in the nose all the way across the Atlantic?
My question for you is, do you hate the country, the people, or both? I suppose that is better sent via PM, or ignored, depending on how willing you are to discuss that topic. Really though, I am not interested in changing your opinion, just trying to get a grasp of your POV.... which is a distinct one on many subjects

-------

Martyrdom is my only fear on OBL's death.

Shameful how the "celebration" turned out, but as mim said, kinda understandable, just as I kinda understood the jubilant crowds of arabs on 9/11/2001. People are people, regardless of faith or faction.

It would have been better to capture him, juice him for information, then execute him by court order. Not as good for ratings though....


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Old 05-03-2011, 08:27 PM   #92
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Personally, I'm less happy about his death than I am about all of the juicy intel they will get from all that hardware. Multiple computers that OBL couldn't have wiped in time...
The computers were just filled with porn.

Sample
Show spoiler
In Bin Ladin defense the women were wearing burkas.

Last edited by mimartin; 05-03-2011 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #93
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I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader. However that's a big arguement I could write essays on, but this isn't about 9/11 or anything, it's about the death of Bin Laden. But let's look at this a minute;
Who flew the airliners into the twin towers, then? The bogeyman?
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Big surprises since you also do not believe in the moon landing.
LOL.
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Us british have just had the Royal Wedding, taking the attention off of the Americans, which, as much as I hate to admit it, because I despise America as a whole, is THE power in the world at the moment.
What has given you cause to despise America? Did we pee on your toffee crisp, or something?
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Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...
Nope, he's up for reelection in a year and a half. In American politics, that's an eternity. Just ask Bush Sr.
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I say they be punished with a $250 billion aid package.
How about a full-scale invasion followed by several years of occupation to restore order and sow the seeds of democracy? We could use a hand. Wanna help?


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Old 05-03-2011, 09:25 PM   #94
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Am i the only one who doesn't really care? However much America may have turned him into the bogeyman, he was never more than a bogeyman, and one that in the last decade, i would be sceptical as the how much influence he really had. his reputation is wholly the west's making, and for all the terrible things he did, the triumphalism is frankly rather pathetic.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:27 PM   #95
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-------
It would have been better to capture him, juice him for information, then execute him by court order. Not as good for ratings though....
I think the guy they really want to wring for intel is Ayman al-Zawahri, who I recall being labeled one of the masterminds of AlQ. But I think TC is likely correct. The trove of info they got will likely be worth more than having gotten him alive. Still, ashame this admin is woefully less competent at handling the press on the "hit" than the SEALs that performed it.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 05-03-2011, 09:39 PM   #96
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Let's...let's not talk to Taak about his beliefs. I'd lay $5 he links to Loose Change next. I mean for the love of God, man. Apollo 11 was a hoax, okay, that I can...ignore, but Al-Qaeda doesn't exist? What next? The Taliban doesn't exist? The Soviet Union didn't exist? Nazi Germany didn't exist? Did the Thirty Years War actually take place? What about the War of 1812? The American Revolution? IS ANYTHING TRUE!? Aaaaaaaaagh!


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Old 05-03-2011, 10:18 PM   #97
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Let's...let's not talk to Taak about his beliefs. I'd lay $5 he links to Loose Change next. I mean for the love of God, man. Apollo 11 was a hoax, okay, that I can...ignore, but Al-Qaeda doesn't exist? What next? The Taliban doesn't exist? The Soviet Union didn't exist? Nazi Germany didn't exist? Did the Thirty Years War actually take place? What about the War of 1812? The American Revolution? IS ANYTHING TRUE!? Aaaaaaaaagh!
Wow you sound like your head is going to explode!!


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Old 05-03-2011, 10:25 PM   #98
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I was musing: If you were a military operations planner and/or a government that has spent an extreme amount of resources in a war started by one man, wouldn't it be more logical to have a priority to take him alive if possible?

Now, doing so would cause an incredible amount of fanfare, and cause the very likely threat of retaliatory action in the form of reverse-hostage blackmail, as is characteristic of the enemy you face. So, it would make sense to have operation representatives to make a statement to the entire world that the target has been eliminated, as the gravity of such an action would generally rule out the possibility of untruth in the minds of most people.

A logical plan would be to order the ground soldiers to disable the target, and kill everyone around him, civilian or not (in order to not jeapardize the public report of the operation with conflicting information from civilians that were present). Then quickly extract the target with the utmost security and speed your 700 billion dollar military country can muster, to a specifically prepared political prison at a truly undisclosed location. There, it would make sense to interrogate the **** out of him, and then kill him.

Now, i'm not the conspiracy theorist type, and as i said, im just musing here (no one really has any evidence to dispute the claims of the US government concerning this) But, i mean, 400 billion dollars, and 6000 lives.. You'd think they'd wanna get more bang for their buck than an insta-kill bullet to the head...



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Old 05-03-2011, 11:38 PM   #99
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Finding Bin Laden was never the main goal of the GWOT. The money spent on the war in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be called the cost of finding Bin Laden.

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I have never believed that Al Qaeda exists, nor have I ever believed Bin Laden was their leader. However that's a big arguement I could write essays on
I can tell you with complete certainty, stemming from serious research and first-hand experience, that you are wrong. Their existence is very well documented.

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Us british have just had the Royal Wedding, taking the attention off of the Americans, which, as much as I hate to admit it, because I despise America as a whole, is THE power in the world at the moment.

Obama is up for re-election very soon, and this has no doubt given him a ton of popularity points.

So...it's managed to put the spotlight back on America AND grant Obama popularity++ right before the election. How convenient...
As has already been pointed out, Obama isn't even past the 2/3 done mark on his presidency. That's far from 'right before the election'.

The insinuation that it's a move to put America back in the worlds spotlight is absurd for a few reasons:
1. The royal wedding didn't take attention away from the US to begin with. The only non-British people I've encountered who cared at all were a few Americans. Also, if the polls I've seen, and the feelings many of my friends from university have expressed, are at all representative, there's a large portion of the British population that didn't care either.
2. The US isn't a 15 year old girl, living and dying based on how much attention others give it. If anything, I suspect the country might prefer not to be in the spotlight, since that always comes hand in hand with whining from those outside it. Anyway, when all foreigners stop paying attention to/complaining about every little thing the US and/or its citizenry does, it'll be out of the world spotlight. You choose to put it there.

You might want to reconsider despising the US. If your hate is due to actions you perceive as morally wrong on this country's part, do a little digging and you'll find that there isn't a country in existence without some serious skeletons in the closet. I could go off on a very long tangent about how I think assigning moral values to nations is futile, and how such large bodies have no responsibility to anything but their citizens safety and well-being, but that would be very off topic.

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The Government are lying, corrupt, greedy bastards.

That's my opinion. I think I'm entitled to it. just as you are.
Many (IMO the vast majority) politicians are lying, corrupt, and greedy. Some to a very minor degree, some to a huge one. However, the government is not only politicians. Technically, I'm part of 'The Government', and while I suppose I lie, I don't think of myself as corrupt, and my willingness to take a government job that pays far less than I could gain in the private sector with my degree and military experience hopefully demonstrates a certain lack of greed. Even if the entire government were greedy and corrupt liars, it still wouldn't lie in situations where either there's not enough benefit to them, or it's grossly impractical. Most of your theories are invalidated anyway, by indisputable facts, that came from nongovernmental sources.

You may be entitled to an opinion, but it doesn't mean it has the same value or credibility as another person's. I try to avoid internet snobbishness, but I'm going to need to lay things out here, even if it makes me sound like an arrogant dick. Your opinions on this subject come from an education up to the early High School level (unless you're a child prodigy, attending university at the age of 14, but that's pretty statistically improbable), along with whatever reading you've managed to find online and in libraries. My opinions on this subject come from the reading I've done online and in libraries, a PPE degree from a university consistently ranked as one of the best in the world, and 8 (and counting) years of work (military and otherwise) involving these issues and national defense/international relations as a whole. Admittedly, I come to this site to relax (I know, stupid me), so my arguments aren't quite as structured as they might be if I were doing this formally, but do not mistake casual language for lack of experience.

On something where we might have similar levels of experience, i.e. video games, your opinion has just as much intrinsic value as mine. In cases like this, I really don't think it does. You did succeed in making me go into full-on arrogant internet ******* mode though, which is something I'm normally good at avoiding, so I guess you get some credit for that.

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Why did they go in and kill him instead of capturing him? I know a lot of people see this as "justice" but since I'm Australian and we don't have a death penalty here... it doesn't seem like "justice" to me...
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But it's revenge, not justice. That's the thing... people are saying this is justice but what it really is is revenge when it really comes down to it.

Except it didn't happen like that. It was thought that's how it happened, but new info was released that says that never happened. One of his wives actually rushed the soldiers and they shot her in the leg. Bin Laden himself wasn't armed with anything.

I can understand why things ended up the way they did and why people feel the way they do. But to me, what happened was a revenge killing.
Whether or not it fulfills some nebulous concept of "justice" has nothing to do with it, nor should it. This is not part of a criminal proceeding. It is a war. Osama was a dangerous enemy combatant, therefore he was killed. In a battle, you don't try an enemy soldier before a judge and jury before you pull the trigger, but you don't consider it a revenge killing either. Capturing him alive would have put the team at greater risk, and killing him served valid military purposes. Look at as killing an enemy general (but even more OK, since he was an unlawful combatant).

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It would have been better to capture him, juice him for information, then execute him by court order. Not as good for ratings though....
Not really. It would create a media circus that, among other things, terrorists could use to their advantage. Also, it would shift this from being the killing of a dangerous enemy combatant in a war, to being a criminal proceeding. It would set all sorts of precedents best avoided.

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However much America may have turned him into the bogeyman, he was never more than a bogeyman, ... his reputation is wholly the west's making
While his power was reduced in the last decade, that's only because we turned a lot of resources towards the seat of that power. If we'd considered him nothing but a bogeyman, we wouldn't have done that, and he'd still command significant resources. A powerful figure in a large and effective terrorist organization is far more than just a bogeyman, and his reputation was gained through his actions, not some Western manufacture.

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IS ANYTHING TRUE!? Aaaaaaaaagh!
Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Now put your ring finger out on that chopping block, ok?



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Old 05-03-2011, 11:57 PM   #100
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The newest story is that Osama was unarmed, and resisted arrest before being double-tapped.


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Old 05-04-2011, 12:55 AM   #101
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Finding Bin Laden was never the main goal of the GWOT. The money spent on the war in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be called the cost of finding Bin Laden.?
Of course he wasn't the main goal, but that wasn't what we were told by our leader at the time. Personally I don't think terrorism was the main goal either or if it was we would not have attacked Iraq.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:43 AM   #102
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Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:52 AM   #103
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I think trying to save time may have been a priority. Pakistan hadn't been made aware of the operation and they had begun scrambling fighter jets. Perhaps the last thing they wanted was the place to be surrounded by Pakistani forces by the time they're done with Osama.

Remember that the PMA was at walking distance from the house, not only would it be an important target for attacks (terrorist ones or otherwise), but it would be easy to scramble troops if Pakistan catches wind of what's going on the compound. The US wanted a quick in, quick out.


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Old 05-04-2011, 03:00 AM   #104
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Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?
How about not making sweeping statements on subjects you know nothing about?

If I'd been allowed to shoot anyone I pleased, my job would've been a whole lot easier. Morally indefensible, sure, but definitely easier. I'm assuming that you're referring to civilians as well as unarmed known combatants.

Osama did not surrender, and was with a bunch of his buddies who were armed. There were obviously guns in the room that he could easily grab, given the chance. It would be insane to require a US soldier to wait for him to grab a nearby gun before shooting him, all the while being shot at by Osama's friends. It's not like they waltzed into the building, found poor defenseless Osama, and shot him in the head before he could open his mouth.



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Old 05-04-2011, 04:50 AM   #105
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I don't think there was ever any real intention of taking him alive. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I think he would have been shot pretty soon after surrendering anyway. The temptation would probably have proved too great to someone.






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Old 05-04-2011, 05:28 AM   #106
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What a tragedy. I might shed a tear. Wait, no, that's orange juice.


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Old 05-04-2011, 07:39 AM   #107
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Quote:
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I was musing: If you were a military operations planner and/or a government that has spent an extreme amount of resources in a war started by one man, wouldn't it be more logical to have a priority to take him alive if possible?

Now, doing so would cause an incredible amount of fanfare, and cause the very likely threat of retaliatory action in the form of reverse-hostage blackmail, as is characteristic of the enemy you face. So, it would make sense to have operation representatives to make a statement to the entire world that the target has been eliminated, as the gravity of such an action would generally rule out the possibility of untruth in the minds of most people.
I can almost imagine if Bin Laden was captured, America would go Roman Empire style and make him walk through the streets of NY chained to a car or something. Public humiliation and all that.

In any case, I can understand the satisfaction people have gotten for Bin Laden's death (whether it's revenge, justice or something else), but the cheering in the streets I find ridiculous. Then again, Americans are weird.

@Qui-Gon: I'm guessing there are a lot of reasons why someone might hate the US, depending on where you live. Me, I don't hate it, but I don't like it either. What I do think is that in more than a few ways, it's a backwater country. No offense.


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Old 05-04-2011, 02:58 PM   #108
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Don't know how long this will last (esp given how this admin has been a bit all over the map post-op, so to speak): http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110504/...s/us_bin_laden

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Old 05-04-2011, 05:19 PM   #109
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Quote:
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Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?
Care to add anything constructive to the discussion, or are you merely here to troll, troll?

You're just jealous because we're not an Orwellian nanny-state with video cameras on every street corner.


Yet.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:49 PM   #110
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I personally think they should stop bringing it up on the news, And every Talk show, And just be done with it, it's over and done with!!


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Old 05-04-2011, 06:25 PM   #111
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I personally think they should stop bringing it up on the news, And every Talk show, And just be done with it, it's over and done with!!
Its this or the wedding. You pick



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Old 05-04-2011, 06:55 PM   #112
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I don't think that any of us should kid ourselves about Osama ever being brought into custody. I personally don't think any soldier fighting in the region would have been able to resist killing him, regardless of orders - standing or otherwise. Maybe within the first year or so after 9/11, but not after nearly a decade of evading and essentially taunting his pursuers.

He was always going to be killed upon discovery, if you ask me. And really - and this is one of the few times I feel no need to criticise the American military - I don't think there's a damned thing wrong with that.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:04 PM   #113
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Its this or the wedding. You pick
LOL! In all honesty i would rather hear about the wedding!!


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Old 05-04-2011, 07:45 PM   #114
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Quote:
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Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?
Contribute to the discussion. Give facts, make an argument. Don't just insult the whole of the US military without at least attempting to back it up, its a low blow to those of us who have or are preparing to put our lives on the line for our country.

Bin Laden was a legitimate combatant, armed or not. The point of rapidly storming a building is to tilt the odds in your favor. If the enemy doesn't even have time to pick up a rifle, then those SEALs did an excellent job.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:20 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salzella View Post
Being unarmed has never stopped the US military before, why now?
As opposed to what, the British military?


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Old 05-04-2011, 11:26 PM   #116
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As opposed to what, the British military?
Good thing they couldn't fit the armored cars in...
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:54 PM   #117
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Also it should be noted that it was a distinct possibility he had a suicide vest on... I mean it's not like terrorists have been opposed to blowing themselves up to take people out.

I say Bravo Zulu SEALs, on a job well done.


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Old 05-06-2011, 04:47 PM   #118
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All i have to say is, Those SEALS have balls of steel!!


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Old 05-06-2011, 05:25 PM   #119
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Of course they do, they're -SEALS-. The whole organization is hardcore as hell.


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Old 05-06-2011, 06:51 PM   #120
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Don't forget those SOAR pilots. Helicopters aren't exactly aerodynamic when something goes wrong. A hard landing with no casualties? That's the kind of pilot I'd like to fly me around.

Hell, all those SOF guys are hardcore.
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