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View Poll Results: Who was the most powerful sith lord ever?
Darth Revan 2 66.67%
Darth Bane 0 0%
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Thread: Who was the most powerful sith lord ever?
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:05 PM   #81
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First of all, all your speculation about Plagueis is still completely unproven, including his creation of Anakin Skywalker (which is just a wild theory). I've even heard rumors that Sidious created Skywalker, so let's not base our discussion on hearsay.

It shouldn't be based on force power alone. Anakin Skywalker possessed way more force power than Darth Sidious or Darth Plagueis and that's a fact. He was a being of "pure force" but yet he chose to squander it all as a cyborg apprentice. Accomplishments are way more important than force power because force power means nothing if you don't do anything with it.

Other types of "power" include: Military, Financial, and most important of all: Political.

Eradicating the Jedi Order is the one and only goal of the Sith and Palpatine is the only Sith lord who has ever done it all by himself. Not only that but he did it basically by pressing a button. The genius it took to do that is the crowning achievement of all Sith history. He did something with mere words that it took other Sith lords huge wars and several years to accomplish. He wasn't a triumvirate or a brotherhood; he was just one man whose influence extended over the entire galaxy (not just his own little Sith Empire alongside the Republic) for many years (way more than just the Empire years). So no, no Sith lord has "accomplished more" according to me.

Of course I'm not very familiar with Star Wars canon to begin with, so answer me this: Is there another Sith lord who destroyed not only the Jedi Order but the Republic all by himself and all in the span of a couple of days at most?

Might I also remind you that Darth Sidious ruled the very first galaxy-wide empire? So even if he didn't rule it for very long, he was ruling the entire galaxy. Sure other Sith lords have ruled little kingdoms for longer, but none of them ruled the entire galaxy until Sidious. Even Darth Krayt only ruled the galaxy for 8 years and he inherited what he got from Sidious's original empire.

What's even more spectacular is that the Republic had lasted for over 25,000 years when Darth Sidious destroyed it.

If we accept the full EU (including his resurrection), his accomplishments, length of rule, and after-death legacy continue to pile up. Right now, do you know how many confirmed canon accomplishments Darth Plagueis has? As far as I know, 0.

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Old 05-27-2011, 09:29 AM   #82
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you can't seriously be saying the a sith lord that only engaged in combat once, when he was revealed as the Sith Lord,
Seriously, you're trying to convince me that he never fought except once? First of all, he fought twice in the movies, and second of all, Palpatine alludes to plenty of other battles he's had with Jedi.

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failed at hunting down the jedi,
Don't give me that. It's worth pointing out that not only did he come closer than any others, but no Sith Lord ever succeeded in completely hunting down the Jedi.

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and only had control over the galaxy for a measly 17 years
It's still a better achievement than the 0 years for which every single Sith Lord before him ruled the galaxy.

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Better sith lords have rule for longer and accomplished more.
Name them.

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Also saying that Plagueis could not compete with Palpatine is asinine. Saying the apprentice can't be beaten by his former master is ridiculous.
That is not what I said. We have no canon evidence to suggest that Plagueis possessed combat skill superior to Palpatine in his prime, yet you insist that he did.

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If it were based on force power, Plagueis would be the victor, no contest.
Again, based on what evidence? Palpatine killed three Jedi Master swordsmen in seconds, and controlled Force Storms capable of obliterating fleets, not to mention got a shot at immortality. What does Plagueis have to compete with that?

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Many questions will be answered when the Plagueis book comes out, but a Sith Lord that has the power to manipulate the very essence of the force and mold it as he saw fit,
Allegedly. And how does that outweigh all of the knowledge Palpatine has?

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the Sith Lord that created a "Chosen One" by using the force alone deserves more than a book.
Firstly, that's only fan speculation for the time being. Secondly, if it's true, then it evidently didn't do him much good since he lost track of his Chosen One and got killed in his sleep.


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Old 05-27-2011, 06:00 PM   #83
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Firstly, that's only fan speculation for the time being. Secondly, if it's true, then it evidently didn't do him much good since he lost track of his Chosen One and got killed in his sleep.
By chosen one, i meant Anakin, i don't see Palpatine being created by Plagueis, Anakin had a midi-chlorian count higher than any that had ever been encountered. i don't see that as being natural, but artificially created. Too much evidence to point to that being the truth. Shmi Skywalker told Qui-Gon that there was no father. . .


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Old 05-27-2011, 06:08 PM   #84
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Too much evidence to point to that being the truth.
Actually, there is none.

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Shmi Skywalker told Qui-Gon that there was no father. . .
I see no correlation.



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Old 05-27-2011, 07:16 PM   #85
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The theory that Plagueis used his power to cause the virgin birth of Anakin Skywalker is just that - a theory. In fact, all it is is just fan speculation. People heard that Plagueis could "create life" so they concocted this wild rumor.

First of all, only the force can create life, so technically all Plagueis would do is coax it to do so.

Even if Plagueis did do it, I don't see that as some sort of trump card that you can just play against everything Sidious did. Just like TKA said, Darth Sidious had the force powers necessary to kill three Jedi masters in seconds, control vast force storms, cloud the vision of the Jedi Council, and achieve immortality. If you couple that with his vast political prowess then Plagueis's supposed ability to impregnate random slave women with his mind is still not enough for me to change my mind and declare him the greatest Sith lord ever.

Plagueis would need way more than just that one accomplishment in order for him to be in the running, and right now, he doesn't even have that. Heck, even his ability to save others from death is still debatable.

Also, say he did cause Anakin Skywalker to come into being. Shouldn't Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Plagueis, get the credit for bringing the force into balance?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the prophecy of the Chosen One predate the life of Darth Plagueis? That means that even if Plagueis caused the birth of Skywalker, he was just chosen by the force to carry out that task, etc.

Personally, I don't see why the force couldn't have just done it by itself.

If they actually do come out and say that Plagueis randomly impregnated Shmi Skywalker, I will . . . well . . . nothing. I lost my respect for the EU a long time ago.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:57 PM   #86
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:59 PM   #87
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By chosen one, i meant Anakin,
Yeah, I know. What I meant with the first part was that the claim of Anakin being created by Plagueis begs the question of how the Dark Lord managed to not keep the boy in his possession.


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Old 06-03-2011, 11:53 PM   #88
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Also, say he did cause Anakin Skywalker to come into being. Shouldn't Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Plagueis, get the credit for bringing the force into balance?
The force may have been in balance, but only for a very short time. George Lucas himself said that balance within the force is not an equal power between Jedi and Sith, it is peace without Sith, existence without destruction. No one should get credit for bringing balance to the force, because it never happened. Balance in the force means the destruction of the Sith. as long as there is orphaned force-users in the galaxy, there will be angry force users, and they will turn to the dark side, creating a new sith order. There will never be balance, only cycles of a peaceful republic controlling the galaxy, only to be destroyed by a sith empire, and then the jedi will rise up, destroy what they know of the sith, and the jedi will begin the republic all over again.

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Actually, there is none.
seriously? an obscenely powerful force user is born in the outer rim, away from any influences of the jedi or the sith. To a mother who never conceived? Of course it is speculation, because Lucas has never said for sure who Plagueis created, personally i believe it was Anakin. There is no evidence to point towards plagueis creating palpatine either, palpatine was plagueis' apprentice, thats it. No other evidence. Believe whatever you want, i really don't care, but i immediately drew the line from plagueis being powerful enough to create life, to a fatherless force user that had the highest midi-chlorian count ever encountered.

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Yeah, I know. What I meant with the first part was that the claim of Anakin being created by Plagueis begs the question of how the Dark Lord managed to not keep the boy in his possession.
Who is to say Anakin was created to be Plagueis' apprentice? Maybe he was an experiment. Plagueis had the potential to be immortal himself, if palpatine could do it, it is likely that plagueis could do it too. Maybe the plan was just to watch from the sidelines, to see what a powerful force user could do without any influence from either side. Or maybe anakin was just a freak of nature. until George Lucas decides to throw the fanboys a bit more controversy, it is all theory and speculation.

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Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the prophecy of the Chosen One predate the life of Darth Plagueis? That means that even if Plagueis caused the birth of Skywalker, he was just chosen by the force to carry out that task, etc.
i don't really understand where you are going with this one. are you saying it is dumb that plagueis was destined to create anakin? just curious.


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Old 06-04-2011, 06:54 AM   #89
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seriously?
Seriously.

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an obscenely powerful force user is born in the outer rim, away from any influences of the jedi or the sith. To a mother who never conceived?
What's wrong? Why can't he just be the Chosen One, created by the will of the Force, as the saga points out?

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Of course it is speculation, because Lucas has never said for sure who Plagueis created,
Indeed, it's all speculation.

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personally i believe it was Anakin.
Fine, but that doesn't make it a fact.

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There is no evidence to point towards plagueis creating palpatine either,
What? Who said there was? And why did you came up with that?

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Believe whatever you want, i really don't care, but i immediately drew the line from plagueis being powerful enough to create life, to a fatherless force user that had the highest midi-chlorian count ever encountered.
Again, just because you believe in that, it doesn't make it a fact.



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Old 06-04-2011, 10:02 AM   #90
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Plagueis had the potential to be immortal himself, if palpatine could do it, it is likely that plagueis could do it too.
Less wishful thinking, more evidence, please.

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Originally Posted by S.O.
Maybe the plan was just to watch from the sidelines, to see what a powerful force user could do without any influence from either side.
Evidence, please? If that was the plan, they sure did a piss-poor job of it seeing as Palpatine didn't know anything about Anakin until TPM. Besides, what would the point of such an "experiment" be? If there's a Force-sensitive guy living a normal life, then (unless someone who is trained finds them) 99% odds say he lives and dies without ever knowing why he was luckier than most. Who gives a ****?


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Old 06-04-2011, 03:44 PM   #91
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Lucas has never said for sure who Plagueis created, personally i believe it was Anakin.
But he said that Plagueis did create someone?

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i don't really understand where you are going with this one. are you saying it is dumb that plagueis was destined to create anakin? just curious.
There's a big difference between a prophet and a messiah. If all he did was prepare the way for someone greater than him, then his supposed "power" means that much less.

If he was selected by the Force to create Anakin, that also means that he really didn't choose to do it himself, even if he thinks he did. You can only be called powerful if you have the freedom to wield your abilities, and if Plagueis was just a conduit for the force instead of being able to control the force with his own free will, he really isn't that powerful.

But of course I still think that all of this compares poorly with the political accomplishments of Palpatine. This isn't just a discussion about force power, and even if it were I would probably still stick with revealed canon over speculation.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:55 PM   #92
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Seriously.

What's wrong? Why can't he just be the Chosen One, created by the will of the Force, as the saga points out?
Because the prophecy of the chosen one says that the would be balance in the force, there was never balance in the force. so the prophecy of the chosen one has as much validity as the idea that the world was supposed to come to an end last month. Just because it was called a prophecy, doesn't mean it was going to happen. George Lucas says Anakin was the chosen one, because he made it and he can say that. But IN MY OPINION there never was balance within the force. The dark side will always seduce a weak force user, and through emotions, make them powerful, if undisciplined. As long as the dark side exists, there cannot be balance, and the dark side will exist as long as sentient being exist.

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Again, just because you believe in that, it doesn't make it a fact.
No it doesn't. I never claimed that it was. It is my opinion, and until LucasArts approves a canon book or comic that states that it is fact, it will always be an opinion/belief/idea.

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Evidence, please? If that was the plan, they sure did a piss-poor job of it seeing as Palpatine didn't know anything about Anakin until TPM. Besides, what would the point of such an "experiment" be? If there's a Force-sensitive guy living a normal life, then (unless someone who is trained finds them) 99% odds say he lives and dies without ever knowing why he was luckier than most. Who gives a ****?
There is no evidence. It is an idea. There doesn't always have to be a master plan in everything. The possibility that Anakin was an experiment was just a hokum idea that i threw out there. It is not canon, and not sanctioned by anyone. It was a simple idea that Plagueis created Anakin, just to play around. It is neither here, nor there, and has no bearing in the Star Wars universe what-so-ever.

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Less wishful thinking, more evidence, please.
The more preposterous aspects of the expanded universe say that Palpatine had clones of his body, since he could not make his body immortal, he would move his essence from one dying body, through the force, and put it in one of his "blank" bodies, and therefore stay alive. There is no evidence to say that plagueis could not do this as well. No evidence to prove that he could, but again, IN MY OPINION, it is a possiblilty

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But he said that Plagueis did create someone?
No one did, he had the potential to do so, Palpatine said that plagueis could manipulate the midi-chlorians themselves. Thats it. there is no evidence to say that he created anyone, but he could have. Again,it is just an opinion, and something that is fun to think about. NOT FACT

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There's a big difference between a prophet and a messiah. If all he did was prepare the way for someone greater than him, then his supposed "power" means that much less.

If he was selected by the Force to create Anakin, that also means that he really didn't choose to do it himself, even if he thinks he did. You can only be called powerful if you have the freedom to wield your abilities, and if Plagueis was just a conduit for the force instead of being able to control the force with his own free will, he really isn't that powerful.
So Qui-Gon believed that it was the will of the force for them to find Anakin, because it was the will of the force make it any less significant? Just because Darth Plagueis was destined to do so, that doesn't make his "possible" accomplishment any less significant. Fate/destiny doesn't mean you were told to do something and you did it, it means that a course of events was set up beyond your knowledge of the universe.


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Old 06-04-2011, 08:50 PM   #93
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What I mean is that Darth Plagueis didn't act on the Force; the Force acted on him. It's kind of a tricky concept and I do agree with you - just because you were fated to do something doesn't mean that you don't deserve credit for doing it.

I suppose a related point to make is that Sidious used his own genius to destroy the Republic while Plagueis needed his force powers to do whatever you think he might have done. In that way, his accomplishment being the will of the Force and not only his own will does somewhat make it less impressive. For example, if a Sith warrior kills a Jedi using a combination of force powers and a bounty hunter kills a Jedi of equal ability without using any force powers, whose accomplishment is more praiseworthy? On a simpler level: Someone defeating you with a trick is more impressive than someone defeating you using some sort of tool (in our case, this tool being force-sensitivity).

Another point I could make is that because the Sith evidently lost track of Anakin Skywalker even if they did create him, the whole thing may well have been an accident. If your greatest accomplishment was an accident, how is it so great?

I'm glad you now seem to agree that accomplishments mean more than ability. If it were only based on ability I would nominate Darth Vader for this honor.

P.S. I think the idea of "balancing the force" can still be true if you just define it as "destroying the Sith." Anakin Skywalker did do that. There were temporarily no Sith masters or apprentices left after Palpatine died and Vader converted as far as I know.

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Old 06-05-2011, 12:44 AM   #94
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I suppose a related point to make is that Sidious used his own genius to destroy the Republic while Plagueis needed his force powers to do whatever you think he might have done. In that way, his accomplishment being the will of the Force and not only his own will does somewhat make it less impressive. For example, if a Sith warrior kills a Jedi using a combination of force powers and a bounty hunter kills a Jedi of equal ability without using any force powers, whose accomplishment is more praiseworthy? On a simpler level: Someone defeating you with a trick is more impressive than someone defeating you using some sort of tool (in our case, this tool being force-sensitivity).
It also counts on how it was done, if a Sith warrior kills a Jedi in a lightsaber battle, but the bounty hunter kills a Jedi while he is on the toilet from a distance with a planted bomb, i count the more difficult kill as the more impressive, and give the point to the Sith for standing his ground like a man, and not taking a "cowards" way.

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Another point I could make is that because the Sith evidently lost track of Anakin Skywalker even if they did create him, the whole thing may well have been an accident. If your greatest accomplishment was an accident, how is it so great?
Just because it wasn't the intended outcome, doesn't mean that it wasn't an extraordinary accomplishment. The invention of gun powder was an accident, and it cannot be said that because it was an accident, it is less momentous in history. And yes, i did compare the invention of gun powder to the creation of the most powerful force user on record.

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I'm glad you now seem to agree that accomplishments mean more than ability. If it were only based on ability I would nominate Darth Vader for this honor.
I do agree that accomplishments are important, but i see Palpatine's accomplishments were more political than anything. He used his "mind trick" to have critical decisions made and used the system itself to ascend to power. Darth Krayt didn't use "as much" politics to come to power in the empire. He walked into the meeting chambers of the head of the government, and killed the emperor without a second thought. (it was later found out that the man he killed was a decoy, not the real emperor, but that's beside the point) Darth Krayt's empire was not as stable, and not as long as Palpatine's (i know i was wrong about the 17 years bit), but the fact that he took it by force, instead of by politics counts higher in my mind. But again, not saying Palpatine did not have an amazing accomplishment by taking the republic from the inside, i keep getting in trouble because i don't like the politics of business so i avoid them as much as i can, politics is a fickle bitch.

If i was going for potential skills and power, i would definitely go with Darth Vader, he was the most powerful sith ever recorded, was never trained to his full potential, never lived long enough to take control and be an Emperor, he just didn't have the tools to live up to what he could have been.

And if i were going for skills and power that were there, but never truly used to their full potential, i would say Darth Plagueis. He had the power to do as he please, he was a Muun, and as a species, are some of the most intelligent and controlled species in the galaxy, the potential is there for him to do a lot, he just wasted his talents. He possibly created the most powerful force user on record, but he didn't rule the galaxy, he had no army, and had his name on nothing but a legend, but as a Sith, there was no one who could control the power of the dark side like he could, he had the skills and intelligence to do a lot, but just never did it.

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P.S. I think the idea of "balancing the force" can still be true if you just define it as "destroying the Sith." Anakin Skywalker did do that. There were temporarily no Sith masters or apprentices left after Palpatine died and Vader converted as far as I know.
Palpatine never completely died, his "essence", or soul, not sure exactly what to call it, survived and manifested itself in clone bodies, Vader did die, but Palpatine kept the sith going for a very long time. Seperate from that, Darth Krayt (not by name, but still was fading to the dark side) existed before the rebels began fighting the empire. Before ROTJ, the man that was to be Darth Krayt was exiled from tattooine, and while chasing a bounty, ended up on Korriban. Where he found a Sith holocron, and was moved fully to the dark side. It wasn't until a short time later that he called himself Krayt, and began his "One Sith" empire.

The sith were never truly destroyed, only disrupted for a short time, but they have always existed

SIDE NOTE: not worthy of its own thread, but just a question. Who has the entire Star Wars Saga on Blu-Ray pre-ordered?


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Old 06-05-2011, 01:34 AM   #95
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Well I still can't regard an accidental achievement as evidence of being powerful, but that's not really something that we can argue about.

Also, I count gaining power by politics as a significantly greater achievement than taking power by force, because it takes true genius to be a politician and eliminate an entire government bloodlessly. To win power by force it takes merely the courage to pull a trigger. As far as I'm concerned, the pen is mightier than the sword and no one could wield either one of them like Darth Sidious.

As far as Krayt vs. Sidious: The Republic itself was far more stable when Sidious destroyed it. In fact, it had been operating continuously for 25,000 years. Not even Revan could destroy it. Besides, not only did Krayt basically inherit everything from Palpatine, but he never really established true peaceful rule over the galaxy and, as you mentioned, ruled for less than half the number of years. But I don't think you were ever really arguing for Krayt anyway.

Yeah we keep getting hung up on EU stuff. Like I said before, I'd really like to believe in the Chosen One. For now, I guess we can agree on the fact that even if Anakin Skywalker didn't destroy the Dark Side, he still had more potential than any individual ever had and ever will have.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:18 AM   #96
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But I don't think you were ever really arguing for Krayt anyway.

Yeah we keep getting hung up on EU stuff. Like I said before, I'd really like to believe in the Chosen One. For now, I guess we can agree on the fact that even if Anakin Skywalker didn't destroy the Dark Side, he still had more potential than any individual ever had and ever will have.
Agreed and agreed, moving Krayt up in the polls was never the goal, i'm just not enough of a fan of palpatine to put myself behind him. The idea of the chosen one is a nice idea, but in my opinion, a false one.


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Old 06-07-2011, 04:06 PM   #97
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You are all wrong. It is Darth Bane who IS the most powerful Sith lord to ever live. He is the one who reverted back to the old Sith teachings which was the rule of two which Palpatine still followed!

But Palpatine is a cowardly Sith lord. He knew Vader had much potential and was very powerful and hungry, but Palpatine was so much more wise then Anakin at the time, he knew Anakin would not win against Obi-Wan. So after losing to Obi-Wan in that epic fight, he saved Anakin to have power at his side. The suit that he put on Vader was meant to keep him at a disadvantage so Palpatine would never have to worry about losing his power from Vader.

Darth Bane actually wanted his Sith apprentice to become more powerful and learn more so the Sith would stay strong and he knew the fastest way to do this was the rule of two. This is where Palpatine let the power consume him, and he lost control of the darkside and was not able to harness it, it made him stupid.

In my mind, Palpatine crippled the power of the Sith. Bane was able to control the power of the dark side better than any other Sith lord, which by definition would make him the most powerful Sith lord. He was so powerful, he was able to withstand the thought bomb.

He learned to use the orbalisks to make him even stronger with the darkside of the force, but they were halving his life because of all the darkside energy that was pulsing through him so he had to get rid of them. Not to mention all the teachings he learned through his journeys from some of the most powerful Sith lords to ever live (forget who, I know Andeddu is one and others along with old scriptures and all the books he read).

Darth Bane had lost to his apprentice, but only to continue on living through her when he performed the ritual that gave him the ability to live on in another being. (I forget what it's called) Palpatine has crippled the power of the Sith and they would be a lot stronger if he would have done right by Vader and taught him like he was supposed to instead of holding many secrets from him. Vader never even came close to his potential and Vader would have ended up being the most powerful, but with a poor teacher and nobody to help you reach that potential, how can you?

Which brings me back to Bane. He pretty much lost his self within the darkside of the force and became a part of it. He committed the rest of his life to learning the teachings of the Sith and has acquired more knowledge than any other Sith lord who has ever lived.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:28 PM   #98
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There is no evidence. It is an idea. There doesn't always have to be a master plan in everything. The possibility that Anakin was an experiment was just a hokum idea that i threw out there. It is not canon, and not sanctioned by anyone. It was a simple idea that Plagueis created Anakin, just to play around. It is neither here, nor there, and has no bearing in the Star Wars universe what-so-ever.
Then why did you even bring it up? I'm not interested in possibilities, I'm interested in established facts.

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Originally Posted by S.O.
The more preposterous aspects of the expanded universe say that Palpatine had clones of his body, since he could not make his body immortal, he would move his essence from one dying body, through the force, and put it in one of his "blank" bodies, and therefore stay alive. There is no evidence to say that plagueis could not do this as well. No evidence to prove that he could, but again, IN MY OPINION, it is a possiblilty
See above. There many possibles that we can bring up when talking about Plagueis (and indeed about any character which we know very little about), but they are neither here nor there. "Possible" in this thread seems to be used as a synonym for "Something I make up to support my position".

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Originally Posted by S.O.
He used his "mind trick" to have critical decisions made and used the system itself to ascend to power.
If I read this right, you're claiming that the majority of Palpatine's manipulations were accomplished purely with his mind-affecting powers. Err, source, please?

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Originally Posted by S.O.
(it was later found out that the man [Krayt] killed was a decoy, not the real emperor, but that's beside the point)
Actually, that doesn't sound beside the point at all.

And why is running in and killing Emperor Fel so much more impressive anyway? Just the fact that you hate politics? Palpatine spent decades establishing a power base in the Republic as well as various underworld networks with such thoroughness that by the time he became the Galactic Emperor, it was completely legitimate as far as almost anyone in the galaxy knew. That speaks volumes about his intellect and ability to plan.

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Originally Posted by 0
The suit that he put on Vader was meant to keep him at a disadvantage so Palpatine would never have to worry about losing his power from Vader.
Debatable, not to mention discredited. Palpatine muses in the novel Dark Lord that Vader's weakness was really much more due to psychological consequences of his defeat by Kenobi than anything to do with the suit.

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Originally Posted by 0
Bane was able to control the power of the dark side better than any other Sith lord, which by definition would make him the most powerful Sith lord. He was so powerful, he was able to withstand the thought bomb.
Sentence #1 needs some specific examples. Sentence #2 is an absolute lie; Bane only "survived" the thought bomb by virtue of not being within its blast range.

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Originally Posted by 0
Darth Bane had lost to his apprentice, but only to continue on living through her when he performed the ritual that gave him the ability to live on in another being. (I forget what it's called)
Do you refer to his attempt to transfer his essence into Zannah at the end of Dynasty of Evil? It's actually canon that his attempt failed and his spirit was banished.

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[Bane] acquired more knowledge than any other Sith lord who has ever lived.
What evidence do you base this off of? We know of only a handful of Sith artifacts that he found and studied. Palpatine spent decades studying various smaller Force cults and sects as well as the Sith and Jedi.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:24 AM   #99
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The idea that Palpatine is illegitimate because he somehow failed to follow the Rule of Two is ridiculous.

If Palpatine wanted a weak apprentice who would never be able to replace him, why did he replace Dooku with Vader? Why did he try to replace Vader with Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker? The simple reason: He actually did want a powerful successor. He was very much aware of Darth Vader's potential and based on what he said to Yoda, fully expected Vader to win. Didn't he tell Yoda, "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us?"

After Vader's defeat, Palpatine spent virtually all of his spare time trying to find someone better and eventually decided on Luke Skywalker.

Last time I checked, Darth Bane never destroyed the Republic or ruled the galaxy all by himself.

Also, the one and only goal of the Sith is to destroy the Jedi order and establish Sith rule over the galaxy, not to secure a good apprentice. Finding yourself a good understudy is just a succession device used to ensure a smooth transition of power from one Sith lord to the next. If anything, the Rule of Two is just one part of the master plan of the Sith to take over the galaxy.

The only Sith lord who has ever truly fulfilled the ultimate goal of the Sith is Darth Sidious, who ruled the entire galaxy for two decades. No Sith lord has ever wielded as much power.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:27 PM   #100
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Then why did you even bring it up? I'm not interested in possibilities, I'm interested in established facts.


See above. There many possibles that we can bring up when talking about Plagueis (and indeed about any character which we know very little about), but they are neither here nor there. "Possible" in this thread seems to be used as a synonym for "Something I make up to support my position".


If I read this right, you're claiming that the majority of Palpatine's manipulations were accomplished purely with his mind-affecting powers. Err, source, please?


Actually, that doesn't sound beside the point at all.

And why is running in and killing Emperor Fel so much more impressive anyway? Just the fact that you hate politics? Palpatine spent decades establishing a power base in the Republic as well as various underworld networks with such thoroughness that by the time he became the Galactic Emperor, it was completely legitimate as far as almost anyone in the galaxy knew. That speaks volumes about his intellect and ability to plan.

Seriously buddy, if you want facts, you are in the wrong place. Everything that has happened in the star wars universe is wide open to opinion and fantasy.

Do you really think that a Sith lord that is also a politician would never use the mind trick to ensure that every decision that leads him to his goal is made? If you have been planning this whole scheme for a very long time, and you have everything laid out in front of you, are you really going to leave things to another beings free will? No, you are going to do everything in your power to make it happen, and if "everything in your power" involves the ability to change someones mind, and use it, like the mind trick allows him to do, you can see why he would. There is no written proof of this, but there would be thousands of encyclopedia sized books that would need to exist if every thought and every action of everyone in the star wars universe was to be recorded.


The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
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Old 06-21-2011, 10:58 PM   #101
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Since I quoted him in the Windu vs. Sidious thread, here are some more tidbits from Sun Tzu:

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
Therefore, political conquest is greater than military victory.

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness."
No one knew that Sidious was a Sith lord until his moment of glory.

"Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate..."
In other words, give the Jedi some troops to command so they won't see Order 66 coming.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."
Exactly how Palpatine defeated Mace Windu and Starkiller. Basically everything he does is deception. The destruction of the Republic, the conversion of Darth Vader, even the Battle of Endor are all textbook cases of his utter genius in action.

"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved."
Palpatine was doing most of this in the public eye, but no one knew what he had in mind until he actually did it.

No Sith lord exemplifies these quotes better than Sidious.

As for the mind trick, I don't think you can mind trick thousands of senators all at once (or even individually because you just wouldn't have the time) and even if you could, you definitely couldn't mind trick the Jedi Council. Yet both the Senate and the Jedi Council willingly went along with Palpatine's plan.

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Old 06-22-2011, 08:22 AM   #102
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As for the mind trick, I don't think you can mind trick thousands of senators all at once (or even individually because you just wouldn't have the time) and even if you could, you definitely couldn't mind trick the Jedi Council. Yet both the Senate and the Jedi Council willingly went along with Palpatine's plan.
He didn't need to trick an entire room of senators to have things done. he only needed one, maybe 2, a very small but loud group at the most.

Just think of the American tea partiers. They are not smart, they have very little in the way of fact or truth, but they are yelling at everyone, and for some reason people pay attention to them.

Make a few dedicated disciples to Sidious, and set them loose in a room full of career politicians, and they will do the work for you. deals that need to be made, bribes the need to be offered, grease the political wheels so that Sidious doesn't have to. Plus, if anyone of them gets caught, Sidious can say he knew noting about it, and only that politician goes down, not the Chancellor.


The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:52 AM   #103
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Darth revan


For The Republic
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:45 PM   #104
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As I see it, there are several things to consider when picking who you think the most powerful Force-user could be, Sith or otherwise. Many of these have been mentioned in this discussion already.

1. Indirect Power - i.e. Military/economic/political. I'd say Revan takes top spot here. Charismatic and brilliant, he's basically Thrawn with Force powers. Palpatine's a close second, because of his skillful political manipulations, plus the war machine of the Empire he ruled. After that comes Darth Krayt, simply because of the Imperial military he controlled. Next comes Lord Hoth, because he built a massive Jedi army to take on the Brotherhood of Darkness and led them to victory.

2. Skill with the Force - How many things can they actually do? I'd have to say Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. He had training from several sects: Jedi, Sith, Aing-Tii, Fallanassi, Theran Listeners, etc., and demonstrated several amazing abilities, including long-distance eavesdropping, timedrifting, amazing precognition, Sith battle meditation, Force obscurity, etc. Of course, after he became a Sith, he grew stupid and stopped using a lot of those powers.

3. Potential Force Power - How much potential does he have, for example, midi-chlorians? Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, of course, has the highest midi-chlorian count ever, and Lucas has stated Luke has the same amount. Of course, Kyp Durron was demonstrated as having more potential than Leia (and presumably Luke her twin) in "Jedi Search", but I'm not sure how valid that is, since Luke and Anakin were supposed to, in Lucas canon, be the most potent. Also, Jaina and Jacen have at least Leia/Luke's potential, and Zekk and Anakin Solo have been demonstrated as having more potential than the twins. So it's kinda murky. Yoda, of course, is pretty high on the list, too.

4. Demonstrated Force Power - How BIG are his powers? Bastila was so good at Battle Meditation she outstripped her masters and could lead entire fleets to victory. Darth Nihilus was effectively an immortal spirit in the shell of his armor and was able to wipe out all life on a planet of Force-sensitives which included a council of nearly all the Jedi Masters in the galaxy. He was only defeated when the Exile confronted him, whose unique "hole in the Force" status meant there was nothing in her he could absorb. Palpatine in Dark Empire had his Force storms, vast storms of energy (sometimes said to be dark side power, sometimes side to be hyperspatial energies) that effortlessly wiped out star fleets. Darth Plagueis could supposedly create life and make people immortal. Exar Kun survived for 4000 years; the Sith Emperor for half that long at least. Galen Marek telekinetically moved a crashing Star Destroyer. Qui-gon Jinn discovered how to live as a spirit beyond death. Luke Skywalker has the most impressive list of accomplishments far beyond anyone else, however. Look at star wars wikia for it. However, no single one of them outdoes the others in this paragraph.

5. Lightsaber Skills - Yoda, Mace Windu, Palpatine, and Luke Skywalker probably head this list. Palpatine was able to pretty effortlessly strike three or four Jedi Masters with his saber, where Mace Windu and Yoda were able to match him. Luke skywalker, in his later years as a Jedi Master, has done some pretty darn impressive things with a lightsaber, particularly if you look at the NJO era and beyond. Also on this list would be Galen Marek, Kyle Katarn, and Darth Revan, though how they compare to the first four I don't know.

6. Accomplishments - Power, skill, resources, and such are all fine and dandy, but maybe it's what you actually achieve that matters. Luke Skywalker, Darth Revan, Lord Hoth, Darth Bane, and Darth Sidious shine here. Luke, of course single-handedly rebuilt the Jedi Order and fought off multiple threats to the galaxy. Again, see his list of accomplishments at Wookieepedia. Revan was singlehandedly responsible for unifying the Republic fleet and pwning the Mandalorians. Hoth defeated the Brotherhood of Darkness with an army he raised and led himself. Darth Bane re-established the Sith Order that lasted for a thousand years and succeeded in his stated long-term goal of overthrowing the Jedi and the Republic. Of course, it was Palpatine who actually achieved the goal and ruled over the mightiest war machine in galactic history for two decades; plus, he ruled over the entire galaxy, as opposed to the ancient Sith empire.

7. Writer Bias - It must also be taken in consideration that different writers have different views. As far as George Lucas is concerned, no one outstrips Anakin and Luke. Writers such as Dave Wolverton, Tom Veitch, Kevin J. Anderson, and whoever wrote "The Force Unleashed" have the opinion that the Force is just that powerful; it's less the power of the particular person, and more the power of the Force that any Force-user could tap into. Timothy Zahn and Michael Stackpole, on the other hand, consider the Force more subtle.

A final note - nearly all the greatest Force powers are always attributed to "ancient" Jedi and Sith. It's never the villain or hero of the day that developed it. Sever Force and Battle Meditation, two of the Jedi Order's greatest tools? In "Golden Age of the Sith" and "The sith War", the earliest recorded uses of those abilities, they are referred to as ancient techniques. The thought bomb? Kaan got it from Bane who got it from Revan who got it from an unnamed ancient source. Nihilus learned his Force-draining abilities from Kreia, who presented them as an ancient Sith technique. Sith alchemy? Originally developed by the Jedi Exiles who became the Dark Lords of the Sith, who are by and large unnamed and undeveloped. The exceptions are Plagueis (who himself discovered the secret of life) and Palpatine (who himself developed Force storms).

So maybe the most powerful Sith are the ones who actually developed these potent, ancient techniques?

And of course, if we discount the EU (since many people have issues with the EU, it seems), it'd have to be Palpatine. Yes, even he said that Darth Vader/Anakin could be greater than either him or Yoda, but Vader never achieved that potential. Palpatine, however, took over the galaxy and decimated the Jedi Order right under their noses and defeated Yoda in single combat.

And if we include the EU, I would still say Palpatine. He fits most of the criteria I gave above: indirect power, lightsaber skills, demonstrated Force power, original development of powers, actual accomplishments. We have no idea what his midi-chlorian count is, of course, so we can't say how he goes for sheer potential (and in Lucas canon, at least, no one outstrips Anakin and Luke). Also, while he had many arcane Force skills, he never demonstrated the sheer breadth of skills that Jacen did in the Dark Nest trilogy.

Also, to address the "Plagueis" issue: yes, a lot of it is speculation based on a couple lines from RotS. But it was stated that he could sustain and create life. Creating life seems impressive - but perhaps this is similar to the Sith alchemy used to create monsters by the ancient EU Sith lords? Or it could be something as amazing as the speculated "virgin conception" of Anakin Skywalker.

And for sustaining life - is it possible that's where the technology needed to construct Vader's suit came from? Is it possible that knowledge is partially where Palpatine's knowledge of consciousness transference came from?

Finally, I believe the most powerful Sith of all was never a Sith. But if he HAD become a Sith (or darksider in general), he would have taken top spots in all the criteria above.

Luke Skywalker.

His list of accomplishments, powers, and Force techniques is already impressive. Imagine what would happen if he actually set out to increase his personal power and take control of the galaxy?

Bwahahahaha, Darth Lukas.

Last edited by Al_Ciao; 08-02-2011 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:41 AM   #105
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Impressive assessment Al_Ciao!

I agree with your conclusion regarding Palpatine. I would add that he did achieve immortality and that in my view, he would eclipse Revan in the first category of "indirect power" simply because of Order 66, which I think surpasses all political achievements in galactic history. The political posturing and trickery he needed to create the clone army and gather the power to wield it is mind-boggling. He turned the entire galaxy into a giant chess board and played both sides of the game, eventually moving things into a glorious checkmate. He destroyed a political institution that had been operating continuously for twenty-five millenia including during the height of Revan's power. Revan is the Hannibal to Sidious's Odoacer.

Do you feel that your argument about Luke's supremacy could be supported without the EU? Star Wars itself is the tragic story of Darth Vader, not Luke. In the grand scheme of the saga, Luke is a supporting character. That being said, I do agree with you that he appears to be the most powerful character in the Star Wars literary universe.

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Old 08-03-2011, 06:18 PM   #106
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Thanks for the compliment! I just read through the whole arguments here and tried to put it all in context.

As for Revan vs. Sidious in indirect power, you make a valid point. For me it's somewhat murky, but I think we can agree that both were insanely talented in that area.

Also, you are right that Star Wars is the tragic story of Darth Vader. If there was no EU, that would still be true. The trouble is the discrepancies between the movies and EU. The idea behind the movies is that Anakin is the Chosen One and he does in fact destroy the Sith. Even Lucas said, IIRC, that yes, Anakin is still the Chosen One despite falling to the dark side.

Of course, the EU completely subverts this. I could understand, in the context of the movies, there still being lots of turmoil in the galaxy, what with Imperial remnants and Coruscant still being captured - in essence villains like Zsinj, Isard, and Thrawn - but the EU keeps dishing out more Sith. Heck, Exar Kun was still around when Vader killed Palpatine.

So, to directly answer your question: without the EU, no I don't think the supremacy of Luke could be asserted. In some ways, however, Vader's couldn't be definitely asserted, either, given that it falls to Luke to redeem him so that he can fulfill his destiny.

However, given that Vader is one of the few characters in all 6 movies and that the movies are undoubtedly his story, then I would have to agree that, without the EU, Vader has the supreme "destiny" or "signficance", whatever that's worth.

One thing to keep in mind is that, just because a character is the central figure of a story, does NOT necessarily mean he is the central figure of that whole setting/universe. Darth Vader was the central figure in that era of Star Wars, it could be argued, but others have had equal or greater destinies in other times and places, Revan being the obvious example. (The whole KotOR era practicallly revolves around him, at least after the Sith War of Qel-Droma and Exar Kun.)

As far as Lucas (and therefore the movies) is concerned, Anakin is it. The be all end all.

As far as the EU, however, that's much murkier, and I stand by my declaration that, in the context of the EU, Luke is both the central figure and the most powerful.

I'll add three quick notes to this, because, yes, I AM that long-winded.

1) I have to wonder what would have happened, if at that critical moment, Anakin obeyed Mace Windu's directive to stay in the Jedi Temple during his arrest of Palpatine. It's possible Palpatine would have killed Windu (IF the theory that he was only faking weakness in order to manipulate Anakin, is true, which we have no way of knowing one way or the other), but Padme would have lived. Anakin might have gone on to become a Jedi Master (as Obi-Wan hinted earlier in the movie), thought there probably would have some friction between him and the Jedi once his secret family was revealed. Padme I suspect would have gone on to become Chancellor one day, though Bail Organa would undoubtedly be the one to immediately succeed the deposed Palpatine.

Anakin Skywalker could have gone on to chair a revived golden age of the Republic and the Jedi Order, more influential and powerful, in time, than Yoda.

2) What about The Sky Walker? Not canon, but only hinted at in early scripts of Lucas, this was the first Force user, from whose 12 children came all Force traditions. How powerful or significant (in terms of destiny) would he have been?

3) As far as sheer POWER, if anyone had ever controlled the Valley of the Jedi (from Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight), they would have been far and away the most powerful person in the galaxy (universe?). Rahn's spirit mentions things like casually detonating stars across the galaxy with a thought, and other such fun things.

4) Okay, I lied when I said three notes, or that they would be quick. But you'll still read, cuz you're as big a Star Wars nerd as I am.

One thing that confused me when I was younger was what was originally called the "wall of light" Force power but which has more recently been referred to as "sever Force". Palpatine, in Dark Empire #6, despite his impressive Force storm, is defeated by three powerful Jedi (Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin Solo) creating a "wall of light" around him.

But Jerec, in the graphic novel "Jedi Knight" (which novelizes the game Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight), is defeated by ONE Jedi (Kyle Katarn) wrapping him a similar wall of light, despite Jerec's powers (the aforementioned Valley of the Jedi) being so much greater than Palpatine's.

Then of course, in the Sith War comic, Exar Kun has to be taken out by thousands of Jedi unleashing a wall of light, despite not showing any powers as impressive as Force storms or that of the Valley as told by Rahn.

Silly me, expecting a fictional setting written in by dozens of writers, to be consistent.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:42 AM   #107
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I think one of the problems is that the various authors can't help but go bigger and better every time they write a new story. So what Lucas intends to be the most significant war in galactic history becomes a blip in a timeline of egregious and often comically unnecessary carnage and strife. Star Wars becomes no better than a long-running comic strip in which heroes and villains die and rise again at the writer's whim and engage in hundreds of battles, each new one making the rest a little bit cheaper.

As for your #1 point, I feel that Palpatine would have killed Windu and found another way to convert Anakin either directly before or directly after executing Order 66. Palpatine has a plan for everything he undertakes. He revealed himself to Anakin on purpose and expected Windu and the other Jedi masters watching the Temple to take the bait. He needed them to attack him to justify Order 66 and needed them to be dead so that the Temple could be taken. Palpatine would not have provoked the duel if there was even the slightest chance that he wouldn't win it. Anakin saving him could have been plan A while him killing the hapless Windu and finding another way to convert Anakin could have been plan B. My guess is that plan B would have involved kidnapping or wounding Padme and using some sort of trick to make it look like the Jedi were responsible so as to push Anakin into the Dark Side. Either way, I do not think that the ultimate outcome of the Windu duel was ever in question.
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:21 PM   #108
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Yep, Star Wars EU is basically a giant comic book series. Of course, for me, that's a good thing, because I happen to be one of those people who loves Beyond the Impossible comics and such. I may have the entertainment tastes of an 8 year old but... really, there's no but here.

The one thing I'm not crazy about is the inconsistencies. Of course, that's par for the course in DC and Marvel superhero comics as well.

As for Palpatine's plans within plans, you are probably right. I just like to imagine what would have happened if Anakin had stayed good and defeated Palpatine.

Which might have actually happened anyway; by obeying Mace Windu's orders to stay in the Jedi Temple, Anakin would have faced down his temptation. Of course, we can play hypotheticals all day long, but we can't really know, however many fanfictions may be written.

Perhaps, instead of debating who was the most POWERFUL Sith lord ever, we should be discussing who was the COOLEST Sith Lord ever. For me, the choices have to be Revan, Nihilus, and Vader. Bane is right up there, but the other three outstrip him.

Revan is just the bomb, for obvious reasons.

Nihilus has the whole disembodied spirit thing with the mask and incoherent powerful voice, with a ruined starship that somehow stays afloat.

And Vader is the original iconic Sith lord, what with the breathing, the choke, and James Earl Jones' voice.
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Old 09-16-2011, 05:48 PM   #109
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Cool Guy DARTH BANE

Here is a list and reasons.
1st Darth Bane- He was freaking powerful and had knowledge from at least 4 legendary sith lords, including Revan.
2nd Darth Plagueis- He could create life, and Sidious had to resort to killing him in his sleep instead of fighting him.
3rd Darth Sidious- He was more powerful than Yoda.
4th Darth Vader- He was 80% as powerful as Sidious.
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Old 09-26-2011, 01:34 PM   #110
Al_Ciao
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I'm curious how you get the figure that Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious?
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:43 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Al_Ciao View Post
I'm curious how you get the figure that Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious?
Yeah, I'm curious about that number as well. Are we talking about potential power, or real power? Potential power, Vader would be off the charts, he was THE CHOSEN ONE for christ sakes, but in real power, Vader couldn't really compete. I am not a fan of Sidius, but the power vader possessed at the time of his death was no where near the power sidius had upon his untimely demise.


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Old 12-09-2011, 06:43 PM   #112
Andon Key
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I respect everyone's opinion here, you are well-read, erudite, but you are also wrong... THE MOST POWERFUL sith was Exar Kun.
"Enveloped in the dark side, Kun elevated himself to the stature of a god.", "He enslaved the Massassi."; "As a young Jedi Knight, Kun exhibited a powerful connection to the Force. Through long practice, he had achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat."; "Kun was able to create terrifying creatures twisted by the dark side's influence..."; "One of the Krath's fallen Jedi was Ulic Qel-Droma, whom Kun perceived as the only Force-sensitive tainted by the Sith that was strong enough to challenge him."; "...drained the life-force of almost the entire Massassi race, transcending his own mortal body..."; "However, he was defeated when Nomi Sunrider led thousands of Jedi in the creation of a wall of light; the power of which destroyed the landscape of Yavin 4, and trapped the Dark Lord's spirit within the walls of his temple forever."; "Kun's power in the Force became extraordinary. He had a strong Force sense, the ability of Force Flight, and was capable of emitting Force Blasts from his hands that could crumble stone walls and kill Sithspawn with a single hit."; "The fact that the spirits of the ancient sith lords supported Exar Kun suggest that they did not and perhaps do not support the sith emperor we face today."
So comparing all other girly siths(Palpatine, Bane, Revan...) with Exar Kun is ridiculous. I guess this ends the dispute and controversy. Next time check the sources more careful.
Oh, and by the way why don't you go and fight/kill a lion with a pen instead of a sword? Politic is a twisted game made by the degraded human brain and in the end "caesar" fears the general and his soldiers, they represent the raw power, as it is in the nature.

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Old 12-10-2011, 08:46 AM   #113
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I'd go for either Revan or Palpatine, but I think Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow should also be taken into consideration as Sith Lords.


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Old 12-10-2011, 10:17 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Andon Key View Post
"Enveloped in the dark side, Kun elevated himself to the stature of a god. He enslaved the Massassi..."
What that actually means in the canon that the primitive Massassi people considered him a god, not that his powers actually fit such a description.

Quote:
As a young Jedi Knight, Kun exhibited a powerful connection to the Force. Through long practice, he had achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat.
Right, because no other Sith Lord in history has fit that description (Revan, Bane, Palpatine, Anakin/Vader, Krayt...).

Quote:
Kun was able to create terrifying creatures twisted by the dark side's influence...
And Palpatine didn't?

Quote:
...drained the life-force of almost the entire Massassi race, transcending his own mortal body...
Kinda reminds me of Darth Nihilus, the Sith Emperor Vitiate, Palpatine (the Force draining), and Palpatine again (spirit transference).

Quote:
Kun's power in the Force became extraordinary. He had a strong Force sense, the ability of Force Flight, and was capable of emitting Force Blasts from his hands that could crumble stone walls and kill Sithspawn with a single hit.
Again, why are you implying that other Sith haven't had such abilities?

Quote:
Oh, and by the way why don't you go and fight/kill a lion with a pen instead of a sword? Politic is a twisted game made by the degraded human brain and in the end "caesar" fears the general and his soldiers, they represent the raw power, as it is in the nature.
Well, for starters, you don't go and kill a lion with a pen (not in a one-on-one confrontation, anyway) because if you're smart you have more than a pen at your disposal.

Your personal distaste for politics is irrelevant; that Exar Kun brute-forced his way to the top of a single civilization of savages does not place him on nearly the same level of achievement as Palpatine, who (aside from essentially killing the old Jedi Order) dominated the majority of the known galaxy with few people even knowing his rule wasn't legitimate, or Revan, who built a power base for himself within the Republic military and Jedi Order such that he was able to pull off a mass-defection and conversion into Sith. Or that Revan's and Palpatine's rises clearly demonstrated in them enough skill to kill with the pen or the sword, which is more than can be said for Kun.


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Old 12-12-2011, 10:31 AM   #115
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Excuse me, If I sounded offensive in my last post. It's true that I do not like what Darth Sidious represents and politic on other side, but I am trying to be objective more than prejudiced. Palpatine's intellect is unquestionable. He managed to accomplish what he did(destroying jedi order and rule for 2 decades) due to his cunning, manipulation and foreseeing abilities. His servants and the clone army actually took out the jedi, he did not do that by himself (he did not kill Yoda and Anakin helped in defeating Windu, we can not be sure what could have happened if Anakin was not there). From my point of view he is coward, hiding behind his mask and let others do his plans. However its the Force might we are speaking about here. In that matter it is not necessary to be sith to accomplish what he did, anyone with superior intellect and strong will could do that (he could have wiped out Yoda and Windu with setting up precise traps, as we know even Yoda was not that wise and he did many mistakes in his judgements; and yes not only force sensitive beings could have impenetrable mind).
The Force represents raw power as it is in the nature, not politics. So let us concentrate on the force powers here and compare Kun and Sidious by their force abilities.
The facts we have about the lightsaber's skills of Kun and Sidious are in favour of Kun. Palpatine killed Kolar, Tiin and Fisto because they underestimated him, they were too confident that 4 of them could handle him without many efforts. So his skill with the lightsber and his quickness surprised them in that moment. So YES he had advantage, but not entirely based on his lightsaber skill.
Kun on the other hand invented his double-bladed lightsaber and had his own combat style. He was able to repeatedly defeat fellow students Crado and Sylvar in practice duels. He defeated ancient Odan-Urr, by Odan-Urr stating that his skill in the force and lightsaber can not match Kun's. Exar Kun killed his master Vodo-Siosk Baas, who was extremely skilled in the lightsaber combat, "With minimal effort". And Kun did not do that by surprise. He had the balls to state his beliefs and go in fair open fight.
Nomi Sunrider led thousands of Jedi against Kun to be able to defeat him but even then not entirely. And Darth Sidious allowed some cripple(Vader) to throw him in the shaft. He should have known so far that love is Vader's weakness and he should presumed that in the very moment he is killing what is left of Padme, which was Vader's biggest tragedy. So we have here stupidity, overconfidence, arrogance, all of it being weaknesses.
Kun possessed Freedon Nadd's amulet. With it Kun's power in the Force became extraordinary. With his Force Blasts he could crumble stone walls and crush bodies. Palaptine got his lightning but as it was stated in the post above he needed some preparation for it. The way I see it that Sidious will last like... 1 minute versus Kun in a straight fight.
Exar Kun survived for more than 4000 years. Kun could travel at will anywhere on Yavin 4, and was capable of enhancing others' Force powers (as when he helped Kyp Durron recover the Sun Crusher). He retained mental command over his Sith alchemy creations, which had survived from 4,000 years ago. His spirit form did not limit him from attacking others directly, as he burned Gantoris to death from the inside out and summoned two-headed bird like creatures composed of pure dark side energy, to tear Luke's body apart. Kun was also able to attack Corran Horn - in the guise of Keiran Halcyon. Horn believed that Kun could not affect the physical world and to prove him wrong, Kun used the Force to melt the detonators attached to the explosives Horn had brought and proceeded to assault Corran directly with the force, both physically and mentally.
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Old 01-14-2012, 02:28 PM   #116
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I think it is between Anakin and Darth Sidious becasue Anakin destryed the jedi, was the chosen one and defeated an extreamly powerful sithlord. Not to mention he kicked ol obi wans ass! But Sidious kept himself secret when around the other masters (even Yoda :O)
and ruled the galaxy. He brought the downfull of Windu, corrupted Anakin, and defeated Yoda in a dual. He did alot more things as did Anakin (remeber Ani was the greatest pilot in the galaxy though thats nothing to do with being a sith) but I think:
Sidious 1: First place for his messed up face
Vader 2: A truly awsome fighter, force user.
Revan 3: Revan was epic, put it that way.
Exar Kun 4: Very powerful and dangerous force user.
Bane 5: I don't know anything about him

PS: There would be others like Traya, Nihlious, Sion, Malak, the person out the force unleashed whos name I forgot, Duku, Maul ect but they wern't on the list


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Old 01-25-2012, 11:37 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
*snip*
You basically beat me to the punch dissecting Andon's post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andon Key
The Force represents raw power as it is in the nature, not politics. So let us concentrate on the force powers here and compare Kun and Sidious by their force abilities.
Some people are judging the powers of Sith lords by other means than raw power, just so you know. Force skills, manipulation, effectiveness, etc., are some of the other measures people are using.

And if the Force is in everything, then it is also in the ebb and flow of politics as well.

Also, if we are considering Force abilities alone, then note other powerful Force abilities Sith lords have had that rival or surpass Kun's.

In Dark Empire, Palpatine created a gigantic Force storm that effortlessly destroyed an entire Rebel starfleet.

In Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, Darth Nihilus sucked all life off an entire planet, at least once as we are specifically told, and it is implied he has done so to other worlds as well. Kun only drained one species; Nihilus drained it all, plants, animals, people - even an entire Conclave of Jedi Masters.

As told in the novel Revan, the Sith Emperor Vitiate also drained the planet of Nathema. But it states that where Katarr (the world Nihilus is famous for draining) was a wound in the Force, Nathema became a dead spot in the Force. There was no color, no joy, no life, no Force.

I too was once enamored of Exar Kun's "great power" and considered him greater than Palpatine. However:

1) Even if Exar Kun were theoretically more powerful in the Force than Palpatine, Palpatine has demonstrated more power, in the above-mentioned Force storm.

2) Although it took 1000s of Jedi to imprison Kun within a wall of light, it is also implied (in the comic series Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War) that that was due not merely to his personal power, but to both his draining of the Massassi and the various Sith temples that focused dark side power onto Yavin 4 in general and himself in particular.

3) Some of Exar Kun's demonstrated power also comes from artifacts rather than his own abilities. The Sith amulet that is specifically stated to amplify his power, and the amulet of Freedon Nadd that you mentioned. Freedon Nadd was nothing special, by the way - not even a true Sith. All he ever managed was to be the petty king of an out-of-the-way planet.

4) Many powers that Exar Kun used are stated to be "ancient Sith techniques" that he learned from Holocrons and scrolls looted on Ossus. I believe Naga Sadow was attributed the source of the draining and/or cosmic spirit ritual Kun attempts at the end of The Sith War, though it's been so long since I read it, I can't remember for sure.

5) Kun did indeed survive for 4000 years - as a spirit imprisoned on Yavin 4. Marka Ragnos' spirit survived over 5000 years, from the opening of Golden Age of the Sith comic series to the end of the video game Jedi Academy, and he appeared on multiple worlds over the galaxy. The True Sith Emperor Vitiate gained true immortality, living for at least 1500 years in a physical existence, rather than a disembodied spirit or needing to switch bodies

6) Finally, note that there are many inconsistencies throughout EU canon. It may be impossible to conclusively determine the "most powerful".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJango/Weasley
Not to mention he kicked ol obi wans ass!
When did he do this? In Episode III, Obi-wan won their duel conclusively. In Episode IV, Obi-wan deliberately sacrificed himself; we have no way of knowing who would have won if Ben had actually fought to win.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #118
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Finished reading "Revan" from the old republic, and i don't really think any sith or jedi in history can top Lord Vitiate. He enslaved both Revan and Malak, even if just for a short time, he broke them mentally, and turned them into his puppets. He completely consumed all life on his home planet of Nathema. He still beat Revan, and Meetra the Exile (admitted with little help from Scourge, but none the less, still beat them) Fed off the power of Revan. He has been closer than any Sith lord ever to achieving true immortality. He brought the Sith Empire back into existence after the Great Hyperspace War, he convinced Madalore the Ultimate to go to war with the republic. His voice, even as a child, carried the weight of the dark side. After he consumed Nathema, his voice seemed to carry the tortured souls of the millions of living things he had annihilated. In the end he was beaten, but you can't deny that he had accomplished more in a thousand years of rule, than any force user before him.


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Old 06-05-2013, 12:07 PM   #119
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Sidious is without a doubt the strongest Sith Lord to ever exist. Not only are there countless references to this being true in all the Novels and fact books but George Lucas himself said Sidious was the strongest ever. When anyone else says another Sith is the strongest that is just pure fanboy fiction.

The Sith got stronger through the generations the apprentice always became stronger than the master so in fact Sidious would be WAY stronger than Bane. Sidious was the greatest Sith and all those after him paled in contrast. He was extremely intelligent and even more so powerful. What is truly the crowning jewel is that Sidious became even stronger after his duel with Yoda eventually doubling in power by the time of Dark Empire and equal to Prime Luke.

His feats are unmatched. His intelligence is unrivalled. Any who say Sidious isn't the strongest is just being a fanboy and one who cannot admit it when countless cannon articles say otherwise. More Canon approved Novels, Comics, games and fact books claim Sidious is the strongest Sith compared to any other Sith you can name.

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Old 06-12-2013, 04:02 PM   #120
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Revan has a balance of light and dark - this makes him more powerful than one who focuses purely on the dark side, as he can draw power from both.
Also, Sidious never did what Lord Vitiate could do, and Revan survived a duel with the latter.


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