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Old 09-12-2011, 03:21 PM   #1
Aunvyrae
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Skills screwed up???

So...I'm new to the PC version. And this mod (a cheater mod basically, that I accidentally let through) screwed up my skills.2da file, allowing all classes to use all skills. (The modder clearly didn't know D&D.)

I extracted the skills.2da from the .2da bif file that should contain the standard game .2da for skills, and who can use what.

My only thing is...were the developers messed up in the head when they did this? Half of these skill options seem...so very very wrong.

Maybe the install .2da is messed up. But to me, the classes that get the skills as Class skills, just don't make any sense.

As I see it, the classes are meant to be along these lines:
Soldier / Jedi Guardian - The Melee character, low Force powers.
Scout / Jedi Sentinel - The Average Character
Scoundrel / Jedi Consular (ie, Politician? xD) - The Stealth/Diplomacy character.

My problem is, a lot of these skills are given to a class differing from the basic class.

I will go through each skill and show what it reads as in the .2da.

[Computer Use]
In the base classes, only a Scout is capable of using this.
In the Jedi classes....a Consular gets this, but not a Sentinel.

[Demolitions]
Apparently, all base classes get this.
But for Jedi...the Politician(Consular), not the Guardian, gets this.

[Stealth]
Only the Scoundrel gets this, thankfully.
But no Jedi receives this. And given that in the movies, Obi-Wan was a Consular (at least he had the green saber) used stealthy actions in the first Death Star.

[Repair]
Scouts get this.
Once again, instead of Sentinels, the natural Scout progression, this is dumped in the Consular, who is seemingly more like the "Mary-Sue" jedi, in getting a pile of skills from other classes.

[Security]
Scoundrel gets it, which is correct, for the most part.
But no Jedi has this.

So...is my .2da messed up, or were these rather poor choices actually built into the game?

For the most part, I could have only Soldiers/Scoundrels capable of playing with explosives/mines. As far as the Jedi, Scoundrel skills should transfer over to the Consular. They are meant to be similar in nature, so why take away their protection??

I don't want to make it seem as cheating. I would just rather each class be unique, so a Soldier/Guardian, Scout/Sentinel, and Scoundrel/Consular, are different from one another. Rather than Jedi training just dumping a lot of extra stuff on the class and coddling it.
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:43 PM   #2
Qui-Gon Glenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
So...I'm new to the PC version. And this mod (a cheater mod basically, that I accidentally let through) screwed up my skills.2da file, allowing all classes to use all skills. (The modder clearly didn't know D&D.)
Uh.... pretty sure that the mod does exactly what it says it does, so the error there lies on your installing a mod that you assumed you wanted

Also, you are aware that in K1 your PC will always be a multi-class character, and so you can choose your character build starting with whichever non-jedi class has the skill-set you like best, then marry that later to the jedi class of your choosing? The multi-classing of your PC does not invalidate the class skills of your previously non-jedi character.


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Old 09-12-2011, 03:55 PM   #3
Aunvyrae
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Actually, no.

The cheater mod was never installed.
Apparently this skills.2da comes from the K1 Force Pack, to add new Force Powers. And I believe the creator made the mistake of using the wrong .2da.

The only thing it mentions about skills is this:
- Rebalance the different Jedi classes to better distinguish them. Consulars get the most Force powers and Force points, Guardians get the most feats and health points, and Sentinels get the most skills and saving throws.

And that is talking about skill points, not class skills. The class skills thing could have come from somewhere else.

But moving on. The changes I listed above, are actually NOT from this mod. They are the lines taken from the normal skills.2da, extracted from the .bif. Which means it's how the developers actually created it.

The multi-class part is what threw me on this. D&D is what I adhere to mostly, and I see this engine as an extension of that. So my natural inclination is to go the D&D route. In which you only get a classes' skill when you level up that class. ((ie, become a jedi and you can only use Jedi class skills.)

But thanks for clearing that up. I'm changing the skills.2da back to the standard version and putting that into the save part on my restructured copy of the mod, so it won't happen again. (I took all my mods and refitted them to work with Mod Manager, with multiple mods grouped together to save space.)
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:57 PM   #4
Qui-Gon Glenn
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Understood! If it is from DI's Force Pack, I doubt the creator made that error... But sometimes yes, a modder will sneak in something unintended - I thought you had installed the mod that makes all skills available regardless of class

The good side to all of this - you worked your way through some game files and understood what you were looking at. Modding is the next step


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Old 09-12-2011, 06:11 PM   #5
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Already on that path.

1) There was a mod I found that was to let you have more options. But it was the cheater mod. And I shy away from that. I like options, not blatant cheating.

So I built my own Feat mod.
Soldiers lost Power Attack and Power Blast, and got 2 bonus feats at creation. (I may alter it to be a bonus feat at level 4 and one more at level 8. To spread it out more.)

Scouts lose Flurry and Rapid Shot, as well as Medium Armor, and get 3 bonus feats.

And Scoundrels lose Critical Strike and Sniper Shot, and get 2 bonus points.

This was primarily to allow you to better create a character you WANT. I understand them giving those options. They fit the class. Which is fine. But I don't go Melee and Ranged with a character. It seems like a useless way to do things. I'd prefer the option of choosing for myself.

So with this, I can take 1 feat to select a melee option or a ranged option. And the other can further me on the path to melee/ranged.

2) Ferc Kast's Playable Twi'lek wouldn't work me. I finally got it going, and I altered the underwear model for PC females to have blue skin. To fit in better.

I have his permission to use the textures in an expansion on playable Twi'leks. The plan is to work on one for each of these colors: Green, Yellow, Purple, Black, and White. Using Ferc's DS transition for each, and maybe a custom LS one if I can get some tats worked out.

3) I got a mod adding colored crystals. I edited the shop on Yavin (At least I'm pretty sure that's where it is.) to sell the crystals. I may broaden that to the one on Dantooine as well.

But I'd like to add new enhancement crystals for Lightsabers. To add more customization options.

4) Lastly, I'm a bit miffed on Lightsabers in general. The general consensus I've found is that 2 'sabers are the best for damage output, due to having more crystals in usage. A double 'saber is good for damage in a per hit basis, but less overall. And a single 'saber is essentially useless.

I'd like to modify the Dueling feats to improve that. To make a 1-saber Jedi as viable to play as a 2-saber one.

I was thinking of leaving the Attack setup at +1/2/3, but increasing Defense to +2/4/6 (I'm not sure if this is too high though.)

I was also considering a bonus to blaster deflection, and a small Strength increase. (Because, in theory, you could use both hands to swing one saber, and have more power behind the blow.

In all...maybe like this:

Attack: +1 / +2 / +3
Defense: +2 / +4 / +6
Strength: +1 / +2 / +3
Blaster Deflection: +0 / +1 / +2

That's not too overpowered, is it? I just want it setup where, via the Dueling feats, a Jedi with 1 lightsaber is as fun as a Jedi with 2 lightsabers.

((Oh, on one side note, I was also looking into creating a male "cyborg" character. Like a Borg on Star Trek. Not in appearance or attitude, so much as a humanoid character, probably a droid head, that was capable of using the Force and lightsabers.))

Last edited by Aunvyrae; 09-12-2011 at 06:14 PM. Reason: (Forgot to type something.)
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae
So I built my own Feat mod.
There's a mod that removes all pre-set feats at character creation and gives them as free feat slots for the player to choose, i think that's a better way as i find your feat allocation arbitrary.

About skills, i don't personally care much about pre-made background sets for classes, imo, classes should distinguish from each other in the way they progress (unique bonus feats, amount of skill, force, and hit points, number of feats, attack bonus, etc) and not for some arbitrary class-skill allocation to fit a broad, generic class archetype, especially considering how few classes there are in the game (for instance, why couldn't there be a soldier with good computer knowledge? granted, he will not be as good competing with a scoundrel with the same dedication to computing knowledge, giving that the scoundrel gains way more skill points to put on it, but still, why couldn't there be?). As it is, there shouldn't be any cross-class skill stuff, or at the very least there should be feats that allow conversion from cross-class to class skills (although with the few feats in total gained by some classes due to the low level cap, and the little usefulness of most skills throughout the game, conversion feats wouldn't be so great either...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae
Attack: +1 / +2 / +3
Defense: +2 / +4 / +6
Strength: +1 / +2 / +3
Blaster Deflection: +0 / +1 / +2

That's not too overpowered, is it? I just want it setup where, via the Dueling feats, a Jedi with 1 lightsaber is as fun as a Jedi with 2 lightsabers.
This seems like a good idea, and i'll agree that the dueling feat as it is hardly compensates for the benefits of dual or double wielding due to the way lightsabers work, but, your proposed numbers above do seem overpowered. I'd suggest removing the strenght (or any main attribute) bonuses, increasing the to-hit to +2 / +3 / +4 (or similar), leaving defense as it was originally at +1 / +2 / +3, and increasing blaster bolt deflection to +1 / +2 / +3 (or similar).
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:34 AM   #7
Aunvyrae
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Quote:
There's a mod that removes all pre-set feats at character creation and gives them as free feat slots for the player to choose, i think that's a better way as i find your feat allocation arbitrary.
Tried it. Didn't work.

And it's not -arbitrary-, it's saving a wasted feat. I'm not sure many people go through this game with characters that do both melee and ranged attacking. For the most part, it seems like a waste of time.

I stripped those -arbitrary- feats, as you call them, for a specific reason. They are basically the same feat, mirrored to be for Ranged or Melee. And it is unnecessary to have both of them on the same character.

So by removing them, and adding it as two bonus feats, it gives the option of CHOOSING what you want. If I'm starting as a Scoundrel, and I want her to be ranged, I have no use for Critical Strike. So, I can use my two bonus feats to retake Sniper Shot, and then I have the option of taking Rapid Shot, or Power Blast, or some other feat, if I like.

If I want a strictly melee Soldier, I have no need for Power Blast, for the same reasoning. Flurry or Critical Strike are MUCH more useful.

Quote:
About skills, i don't personally care much about pre-made background sets for classes, imo, classes should distinguish from each other in the way they progress (unique bonus feats, amount of skill, force, and hit points, number of feats, attack bonus, etc) and not for some arbitrary class-skill allocation to fit a broad, generic class archetype, especially considering how few classes there are in the game (for instance, why couldn't there be a soldier with good computer knowledge? granted, he will not be as good competing with a scoundrel with the same dedication to computing knowledge, giving that the scoundrel gains way more skill points to put on it, but still, why couldn't there be?).
Maybe you don't understand D&D? Class skills are meant to represent the training one typically undergoes in a specific field.

If you remove cross-class skills, you get a lot of bland characters. There are simply NOT enough unique things for a class to even consider that with KotoR.

While I agree that the classes need to be more unique, removing class skills is a step -backwards- in that goal. Not forwards. All that is going to do is make the classes more useless.

Cross-Class skills are an essential part of D&D. If you take that away, what exactly is the point in playing a Scout or Scoundrel? All you need to do is jack up your INT to get more skill points as a Soldier.

Then you have the perfect Mary-Sue character. High HP, best Armor, any skill in the game (which is pointless to have, the NPCs that join you help to cover those other skills that your character lacks.)

That's the point of the game, anyways. Working -with- your team to accomplish things.
Mission covers Stealth, if you wanna play a Scout or Soldier.
T3-M4 covers Security, if you play Sct/Sld, and Computer Use if you play Scoundrel/Soldier.

Persuasion and Repair are the only real feats your character needs to have during the entire game. The first for the many dialogs where you can persuade people to give you more money, and the second for HK-47. And those are OPTIONAL. That's why Soldiers and Scouts do not get Persuasion.

If you want to drastically alter a character from the training of their class, do it. Instead of wanting it to happen easily and instantly, understand the cross-skill mechanic and learn that it takes time and effort for some to do what others find more easily.

Quote:
As it is, there shouldn't be any cross-class skill stuff, or at the very least there should be feats that allow conversion from cross-class to class skills (although with the few feats in total gained by some classes due to the low level cap, and the little usefulness of most skills throughout the game
There is in KotoR II, as I recall. Maybe you'd be happier with it.
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Old 09-15-2011, 07:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
Tried it. Didn't work.
Works for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
And it's not -arbitrary-, it's saving a wasted feat. I'm not sure many people go through this game with characters that do both melee and ranged attacking. For the most part, it seems like a waste of time.

I stripped those -arbitrary- feats, as you call them, for a specific reason. They are basically the same feat, mirrored to be for Ranged or Melee. And it is unnecessary to have both of them on the same character.

So by removing them, and adding it as two bonus feats, it gives the option of CHOOSING what you want. If I'm starting as a Scoundrel, and I want her to be ranged, I have no use for Critical Strike. So, I can use my two bonus feats to retake Sniper Shot, and then I have the option of taking Rapid Shot, or Power Blast, or some other feat, if I like.

If I want a strictly melee Soldier, I have no need for Power Blast, for the same reasoning. Flurry or Critical Strike are MUCH more useful.
Obviously, but i was mostly refering to the armor feat change for the scout. In any case, giving the player the freedom to choose all the starting feats as the player sees fit seems way better.

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Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
Maybe you don't understand D&D? Class skills are meant to represent the training one typically undergoes in a specific field.
I understand it just fine, like i said, they're pre-made background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
If you remove cross-class skills, you get a lot of bland characters. There are simply NOT enough unique things for a class to even consider that with KotoR.
Then making the classes progress more distinctly would be a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
While I agree that the classes need to be more unique, removing class skills is a step -backwards- in that goal. Not forwards. All that is going to do is make the classes more useless.

Cross-Class skills are an essential part of D&D. If you take that away, what exactly is the point in playing a Scout or Scoundrel? All you need to do is jack up your INT to get more skill points as a Soldier.
The system, as it implemented, is what matters (unless you want to change the whole thing, of course).

As for your example, yes, if you jack up your intelligence as a soldier you get more skill points, but how's that different to how it already is?, the only difference would be that the player would then get the chance to put the points at normal requirement into his chosen skill set. Also, the soldier, regardless of intellingence would never get the same amount of skill points as a scoundrel of the same intelligence, as well as having to make a big sacrifice at attribute point distribution (for those points put into intelligence are not going to another attribute such as strenght or dexterity).

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Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
Then you have the perfect Mary-Sue character. High HP, best Armor, any skill in the game (which is pointless to have, the NPCs that join you help to cover those other skills that your character lacks.)
Really?, all that from removing the cross class skill? HP and armor feats has nothing to do with it, and even if the player tries to create a character such as that he would still fail to be as good as other characters in various things, for attribute requirements, number of skill points gained per class, etc, etc would limit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
That's the point of the game, anyways. Working -with- your team to accomplish things.
Mission covers Stealth, if you wanna play a Scout or Soldier.
T3-M4 covers Security, if you play Sct/Sld, and Computer Use if you play Scoundrel/Soldier.
Of course, and that would still apply.

As a side note, i've never been too convinced about the 3 man team with disallowed party selection in most 'dungeon' areas (which are a lot).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
Persuasion and Repair are the only real feats your character needs to have during the entire game.
The only real skills you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
The first for the many dialogs where you can persuade people to give you more money, and the second for HK-47. And those are OPTIONAL. That's why Soldiers and Scouts do not get Persuasion.
That Persuade is used mostly to get people to give you more money is a failure of implementation of the skill in the game, true, but that's no why soldiers and scouts do not get persuasion, in fact, nothing you said there explained why they don't get it, even taking into account the companions, none of them can persuade for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
If you want to drastically alter a character from the training of their class, do it.
The training of their class according to who? why is an infiltrator/spy type soldier (with 'trained' computer and security skills) background not possible for instance? ah that's right, because there's very few classes and the background cross-class (or training as you call it) system is perfect as it is. ()

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Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
Instead of wanting it to happen easily and instantly, understand the cross-skill mechanic and learn that it takes time and effort for some to do what others find more easily.
Looky here, a hardcore rpg'er, totally not an insta-gratification tard. HI-5!

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Originally Posted by Aunvyrae View Post
There is in KotoR II, as I recall. Maybe you'd be happier with it.
Is it?, haven't played kotor 2 in years (was planning to after my recent playthrough of kotor but got hooked on modding it, heh).
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