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Old 02-28-2011, 08:18 PM   #81
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
((Paragon Interrupt)) I have a question for all of you: Must all of the Bible--every story, every account, every word and syllable--be LITERALLY true in order for it to be true? I personally do not believe so.
Depends on if you're using an English interpretation or going with the original Hebrew/Greek. For instance, in the Hebrew in Genesis, 'day' can mean a literal 24 hour day, or a long 'age', as in the wording used "back in my grandfather's day". So, I have no issues as a result with the wording of Genesis having things created in 6 days or 6 'ages', and God using the process described (if a bit crudely) by evolutionary science.

Who cares if it was done in 6 days or 6 billion years, anyway, when there's so much work to do down here on earth for people who are hurting or need help NOW? Jesus didn't debate creationism, He stayed busy healing sick hearts and sick bodies, feeding the poor, and talking about how to relate to our fellow people God with love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha
If there was no literal Noah's Ark, and if the sun did not literally stand still,
Well, if God can create an entire universe, I suppose He can stop the sun for a few hours, or protect an ark if He wanted to, or create a flood if He wanted to. He made the rules, He can break them every now and then. That being said, I don't get hung up on it. The core message is still 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself'. For those who get weirded out by the 2 apparently differing accounts of creation in Genesis, first, look at the Hebrew and get the more exact wording (the differences are subtle, but important), and second, understand the intent. The account in Genesis 1 is designed to portray the awesome power of God, a God that can speak a single phrase and has the power to bring into being an entire universe. The other account a couple chapters later is far more anthropomorphic, and shows God's interactions with His created beings--we humans. It is designed to show His much more personal, loving aspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha
I would still believe that Jesus loved me and that He wanted to pay the price for our sins. I've never believed that the Bible was meant to be a science or history textbook, even though many of the events in it did actually occur (such as the Babylonian exile). To me, the Bible was chiefly meant to inspire people to come to the Christian faith, and live out their lives in love for God and His Son.
That's pretty much how I feel, too. How many wonderful things have come out of showing love for humanity? Innumerable things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha
Why must I think that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, as some say because they believe in the Genesis account literally, in order to come to faith (or continue in faith)? I have a point/counterpoint for you to consider:
There are a lot of different views on the Creationism debate, not just 'literal 6 days vs. evolution', all-or-nothing idea. There's progressive creationism (creationism done over a hundreds of thousands of years), theistic evolution (God directed the evolutionary process), and various shades in between. I think fundamentalists have done themselves a bit of a disservice by not appreciating that God created science as well as religion, and that science and religion both can and do exist in harmony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha
1) "If all of the Bible isn't LITERALLY true, then none of it must be true."
Not necessarily. One mistake doesn't invalidate an entire document. If it did, all of ancient history would be tossed completely out the window, as would all of Dawkins' books on atheism.

Quote:
-1) Some people like to compare the Bible to a math book, so I'll run with that analogy. If there is a mistake in my math book, does that make the entire text garbage? Are all of the problems mistakenly construed or wrong? Are the theories presented a bunch of hogwash? Of course not. In a math book, one "bad apple" (error) does not "spoil the whole barrel". If some of the Bible isn't literally true, that doesn't make God's love any less valid. Right?
If your initial equation is wrong in a series of equations, that error is likely going to continue throughout the entire series and mess up the entire thing. Other mistakes may not make any difference whatsoever.

I think the Bible was written as a guidebook to a. Discover God b. Discover love c. learn how to relate to other people in society in a positive, meaningful way. The rules are there to help us, not screw us over. Why do we have rules on avoiding adultery? Because it can spread sexually transmitted diseases and ruin the family unit by creating mistrust in a situation that requires tremendous trust. Why do we have rules against stealing? Because it damages those who are stolen from. Why do we not murder? Because aside from giving the victim a really bad day, it cheapens life all around us. Is God going to punish us? Well, in a sense, yes, by letting us experience the consequences of our mistakes. If we get an STD, it may not kill us these days, but it would have even 100 years ago.

That's not even addressing the many aspects of good things that come to us by sharing love with those around us. Studies are showing that married people live longer and are happier than those couples who just live together, being involved in a faith community leads to less depression (probably because we have a support system then). Staying on the 'light side'/good side of the law is healthier for us. There's just plain less risk of getting shot or killed if you're not breaking into someone's house, for instance, and no chance of being Bubba's lover in jail if you never get arrested.


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Old 02-28-2011, 08:20 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Qui-Gon Glenn View Post
I think I can actually state quite frankly that nobody knows God better than anybody knows God, and those that really think they know God have deceived themselves a great deal. Which God are you speaking of jonathan? There are many legitimate and "believable" Gods for the peoples of our planet... If someone claims to know "Jesus" but God is actually JVHV, or Krishna, or Bahá'u'lláh, where does that put us? If a Christian claims he knows God better than a Shinto, I will argue that Christian is self-deceived, or being misled by Natasha (spell it drawkcab).

I will say that no one knows God. This can be argued, but convincingly??????
Actually you seem to have missed my point, apologies perhaps my articulation was not good. My point was if there is a God, then he would know who knows him, and indeed who knows him better than others. As such I was not making claims as to which human can say they know God better, just that to quote Bertrand Russell "Since all the worlds great religions disagree, no more than one can be true" (from 'Why I am not a Christian). As such given the very different opinions on said deity it follows that some peoples conceptions of God are more (or less) accurate as to what said God is like. Or to put it differently, two people see the moon, they both believe in the moon, but one knows it is made of rock and the other knows it is made of cheese. Who knows the moon more accurately?



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Old 03-01-2011, 09:23 AM   #83
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My saying on that is beware those who claim to know God and tell you what he wants. Chances are they know neither.


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Old 03-01-2011, 03:01 PM   #84
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You know what? I've concluded, after participating in this thread for quite a few posts, that even if God doesn't exist, there are PLENTY of supportive, caring, and understanding humans out there. *HUGS* to all of you! It makes me inclined to believe that someone (even with a capital S!) is willing to put it all "out on the line" for someone else who feels lost, and that's awesome!

None of you have judged me or told me I'm completely messed up. That's a lot more than I've gotten from some people--basically a harsh rebuttal: "Why don't you believe anymore, or at least why are you having trouble believing?" You guys really understand, even though we disagree on some points.

You know what all of you have proven--and I mean that sincerely? You've proven that no matter what each one of us professes as our faith, we all share a common humanity--respect for one another, no matter what.

I'll take that over blind faith any day, no matter what anybody says.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:48 PM   #85
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I am neither an Intellectual nor a Christian, but sometimes you have to look inside yourself to find Happiness and Meaning in life. This is not directed at the Religious members of this Forum, as the ones I've had dealings with are level headed and caring people... But when I was "Forced" to go to Church, Sunday School and Boys Brigade as a Child, the Kids and Adults I was surrounded by were some of the Nastiest, close-minded Bullies I've ever met.

I Hope you feel your family will be understanding of your problems, as they should be your third leg no questions asked.

I sincerely hope you find peace with your self and any decisions you make, and I hope your family and friends are there for you


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Old 03-02-2011, 02:02 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
You know what? I've concluded, after participating in this thread for quite a few posts, that even if God doesn't exist, there are PLENTY of supportive, caring, and understanding humans out there. *HUGS* to all of you! It makes me inclined to believe that someone (even with a capital S!) is willing to put it all "out on the line" for someone else who feels lost, and that's awesome!

None of you have judged me or told me I'm completely messed up. That's a lot more than I've gotten from some people--basically a harsh rebuttal: "Why don't you believe anymore, or at least why are you having trouble believing?" You guys really understand, even though we disagree on some points.

You know what all of you have proven--and I mean that sincerely? You've proven that no matter what each one of us professes as our faith, we all share a common humanity--respect for one another, no matter what.

I'll take that over blind faith any day, no matter what anybody says.
Amen!!!
That is as good a prayer as any I can think of

@j7: There you go, quoting my favorite philosopher Perhaps I did misunderstand your post. I echo the sentiment of Tommycat... I specialized in Epistemology and Philosophy of Mind while getting my BA in Phil, and questions pertaining to "knowledge" always get my attention, as it is a daunting task to prove to me that humans actually know, uh, anything


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Old 09-26-2011, 09:23 AM   #87
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This is my advice only:
1)Love God
2)Read Scripture
3)Serve your fellow man
4)If you can or want too, find a church and pray about it
5)Be honest with yourself
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:37 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathScepter View Post
This is my advice only:
1)Love God
2)Read Scripture
3)Serve your fellow man
4)If you can or want too, find a church and pray about it
5)Be honest with yourself
Thread necromancy is frowned upon here lad. Not really, if you see an older topic that you believe you can constructively add to the topic, then no thread necromancy is not frowned upon. However, that does mean you would have add some real information, or present your opinion in a somewhat intelligent matter. “I agree” or “No it isn’t” are not what I would consider intelligently adding to the conversation. I also think it matters how old the thread is, but again a lot of that is subjective.

I direct you to the Forum Rules for more information. Check out the section on general posting habits. Thanks, but you may want to read the section on spam yourself. Should you see a post that needs moderating please use the report button. ~ mimartin

Edit-- Aww. I never get to play moderator.


Last edited by Trench; 09-29-2011 at 06:05 PM. Reason: My deepest apologies.
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:00 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by DeathScepter View Post
4)If you can or want too, find a church and pray about it
Alternately, find a quiet spot and meditate over it.


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Old 09-26-2011, 10:24 PM   #90
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Om





Om


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Old 09-26-2011, 10:31 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qui-Gon Glenn View Post
Ohm


Ohm

Corrected.


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Old 09-27-2011, 07:08 AM   #92
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Correctly corrected.


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Old 09-27-2011, 10:18 AM   #93
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Me





Me
Incorrectly corrected.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:13 PM   #94
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ENOUGH!

Don't make be give my ban/infraction finger a workout.


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Old 10-19-2011, 04:27 PM   #95
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I stopped believing in religion when I was 13. I've never been the one to believe in miracles, but this "god" thingy misses all logic and reason... at least I think so... :/ But I don't want to offend anyone's thoughts about that and just thought to add my opinion here



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Old 11-07-2011, 04:43 PM   #96
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After six years of being drug-free and living in reality I've come to the conclusion that the only real purpose that religion serves is to provide those who do not possess a conscience with a convenient way to manipulate those who do. I didn't realize this much earlier in life due to being brainwashed by my reliotarded parents as a child and the aforementioned drug use in my early adulthood.

It is now my firm belief that religion is just another form of politics and that it's every bit as worthless.


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Old 11-07-2011, 06:55 PM   #97
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It is now my firm belief that religion is just another form of politics and that it's every bit as worthless.
Indeed. Only problem is that religion is (in my opinion) formed by two different things;

1) Personal experiences.

2) The need for security and comfort via spiritual fulfillment and "answers/truth".

For the record, I don't believe religious people are stupid. It's just that most people gladly choose the blue pill over the red pill, if you've seen The Matrix you'll now what I mean. It's just easier for people to focus on shallow things in life like the wedding of Prince William instead of pondering deep, philosophic questions about the universe and life in general. This means that they wont effectively come to the conclusion that religious institutions are a bad thing and will instead embrace them even with their faults. I'm pretty sure the average Joe would become extremely depressed if he suddenly realized the true nature of things in life, they way we live, how our society works, what really goes on behind the curtains so to speak and so forth. And again, people are not stupid - they all have the potential to realize the bigger truth but will instead opt to the safe cushion of ignorance.

For this reason I don't believe the human race will ever steer away from some form of religion, be it spiritual or totalitarian in the form of a country or state. At least not unless something radical happens with the human consciousness, possibly aided by technology in the future which will guide us away from our animalistic nature toward something very different.

Oh and congratulations on your sobriety Q, I'm well on my way myself. *fingers crossed*

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Old 11-08-2011, 05:07 AM   #98
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And what is the bigger truth exactly? And can't it be said that the blue pill is the lack of any belief, since people accept only what they can see and touch and not what's behind the curtain?



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Old 11-08-2011, 07:35 PM   #99
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Pho3nix:
Quote:
It's just easier for people to focus on shallow things in life like the wedding of Prince William instead of pondering deep, philosophic questions about the universe and life in general. This means that they wont effectively come to the conclusion that religious institutions are a bad thing and will instead embrace them even with their faults.
It should be mentioned that it's remarkably dificult to find corelation between (more or less) accepted negative effects and religion. I have tried and failed to find it, so if you have some good data I'd be interested.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the average Joe would become extremely depressed if he suddenly realized the true nature of things in life, they way we live, how our society works, what really goes on behind the curtains so to speak and so forth. And again, people are not stupid - they all have the potential to realize the bigger truth but will instead opt to the safe cushion of ignorance.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. More spesifically what you mean by "true nature of things in life", is it strictly what can be observed/measured? If yes, then I'd argue that we don't know everything of what is behind the curtain, yet.

Alex: To run with the curtain analogy: the unbeliever is the guy who is trying to get the limited amount of info he can about what is behind the curtain, by doing everything from listening to making theories of what the shadows on the curtain could be. The religious guy is the one who either claims that someone else have peeked behind the curtain and told them what is there, despite no one else being able to peek behind the curtain.


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Old 11-09-2011, 10:36 AM   #100
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After six years of being drug-free and living in reality I've come to the conclusion that the only real purpose that religion serves is to provide those who do not possess a conscience with a convenient way to manipulate those who do. I didn't realize this much earlier in life due to being brainwashed by my reliotarded parents as a child and the aforementioned drug use in my early adulthood.

It is now my firm belief that religion is just another form of politics and that it's every bit as worthless.
To be fully sincere, i don't exactly agree with you. Yes, religion has been used to control people throughout the ages. Yes.. The most powerful way to control people is through their minds and thoughts, yes... But religion hides something more, not only stories, about this and the other, but a truly whole philosophy. Also, not all the religions are like that, in fact, religions from Asia, such as Buddhism, Confucianism and so on... They center they're beliefs in thinking and meditating about everything that surrounds them. In that part, i agree with them, occidental religions have always imposed things as impossible to evolve or change.

You don't have to "hate" or ignore totally, because the one who hears is as wise as the one who speaks.

You can have you're own beliefs, but they don't need to be the whole inverse of the ones from christian or jewish or whatever religion, just because they have done bad things before.

The problem is that religions, or, to be more accurate, communities of religions, are formed by people, people that have their pros and cons, and, well, somehow, you cannot blame them for what they did after all, who are we to blame people?, and even more important, would he act the same, if his life would have been like yours?
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Old 11-09-2011, 11:02 AM   #101
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I always laugh when people blame religion for wars and the like. Not only it's an innacurate generalization, but they fail to see that people are the problem, not religion.



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Old 11-09-2011, 02:25 PM   #102
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I always laugh when people blame religion for wars and the like. Not only it's an innacurate generalization, but they fail to see that people are the problem, not religion.

That is something i tried to say. The problem is people, in fact, if we followed the philosophy from any religion ( excepting those about satanism and so on ) there would be no need to have weapons, as we would not kill each other, we would just forgive and apologize, it would be a great world.. The problem is that people isn't so, but the question is.. Are you so? Now that you have read this... Are you going or try to be like this?

Quote:
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(NOTE: This is an open letter that I first wrote to one of my best LF friends.)

I went to church this morning, mainly to spend time with my mom and dad and to cry out for help to the higher power/God in which I believe. However, the time in which I thought I'd be free to do so without fear, guilt, or condemnation was poisoned--ruined--by a rather Orwellian sermon. What I mean is this: In his novel 1984, George Orwell talked about the concepts of doublethink and doublespeak--thinking and saying two completely opposite things while believing in them both, completely. As a teenager and young adult, I didn't understand this at all, but now that I've experienced a bit more of life, I feel I have a good grasp of it. Again, let me explain. This whole THING is hard to explain, as shown by my use of the word "thing"!!!

Our church's pastor is doing a sermon series entitled "Losing My Religion". He's encouraging us, meaning the church congregation, to have a genuine relationship with God instead of focusing on "religion"--the do's and dont's, the rituals and prohibitions, the doing of specific things to win God's love instead of being--living--in God's light and love. Granted, I don't really know what it means to "live in God's light and love" anymore, but our pastor kind of takes it for granted that since we're all Christians and have been to church for years, we do--or should, at least--know what this means. Anyway, that's the point of his sermon series on the surface. However, at least in my mind, if a sermon provokes far more questions, objections, and fear in me than peace and understanding, then something's wrong with it. Something's wrong with its premises.

1) On the ONE hand, my pastor talked about love--specifically how (God's) love is sacrificial and unconditional. This is consistent with what I've been (doctrinally) taught about God's love.

-1) On the OTHER hand, along with this message of love, he talked about the bad news--what I call "the catch": "Some people are condemned already, because they don't believe in Jesus."

If God's love is supposed to be unconditional, and "condemnation" means an eternal withdrawal of God's love--that's what I believe that Hell is--then isn't "belief in Jesus" a condition of God's love? If you don't believe in Jesus, say my pastor and church, then you will be judged guilty and separated forever from God and His love. How, then, can they honestly say that God's love is unconditional? To me, this is a crystal-clear example of what Orwell called doublethink.

2) On the ONE hand, my pastor talked about the very beginning of John 3:16. It says, "For God so loved the world..." Meaning, God loved all the people in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of time. Fair enough, say I, because as my pastor also exclaimed, "God IS love!"

-2) On the OTHER hand, he talked about how WE, as HUMANS, not just as Christians, are "born bad". If God despises evil--things that are bad--which I'm sure my pastor and I both agree that He does, then how can God love US if we're BORN bad/evil? If God loves all the people in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of time, and yet such people are every-single-one-of-them BORN evil, then the concept of God's love makes no sense at all. It's utterly contradictory, and another brilliant example of what Orwell deemed doublethink.

This next example might be the most insidious of all.

3) On the ONE hand, my pastor talked about how living in God's grace and mercy means "you have nothing to lose (because you've gained salvation through Christ) and nothing to prove (because you don't have to try and win God's love anymore. Jesus did all the 'proving' for you)."

-3) On the OTHER hand, his view on salvation is called the "perseverance of the saints," meaning that if you not only continue having faith, but also if "your life reflects your faith in Jesus" (meaning you do enough good deeds and don't swear/don't drink/don't slander or gossip/don't cheat, etc.) THEN you will be saved. He made the point that "you can't just pray a prayer that invites Jesus into your heart and then live your life sinning all you want." Fair enough--I hate hypocrisy anyway. However, isn't this another condition of God's supposedly unconditional salvation? I'd hate to be on my deathbed worrying if I'd been pure enough, and done enough good deeds, to be authentically saved. Underneath all of my pastor and church's pious words and rhetoric, is it REALLY the truth that I have everything to lose (my salvation) and everything to prove (myself and my "genuine relationship with God") through my good deeds? I was wrong--there is a fourth example that blows the previous three away:

4) On the ONE hand, my pastor made the point that God wants a real relationship with us.

-4) On the OTHER hand, he also made the point that "our response, and our relationship with God, must be genuine (in order for all of this to work)." However, he never told us who decides what is and is not a "genuine" relationship with God. Supposedly, God should and does, but he never said that explicitly. That worries me. Thoughts? I have a knot in the pit of my stomach...

Note: Why have I done the 1) -1), 2) -2) enumeration that way? As you can probably tell, it wasn't just to list my points, one by one. What is 1 + -1, 2 + -2, etc.? That's right, zero, and that's why I feel so empty inside instead of full right now. I don't really understand--about God's love, about Jesus, about salvation and condemnation/going to Hell, and especially about what a "genuine relationship with God" is. I also don't understand what "losing my religion" would free me from--at least as much as my pastor understands the concept of "losing my religion". Do I make any sense at all? Perhaps not, but that's about as much as I can explain it.

Right now, I feel lost. Used up. Discarded. Thrown away like trash. I lost my job--I was used and expended as any "human resource" would be, and then laid off when there was no longer any money to pay for my continued usefulness as an employee of my workplace. I was forced to move back home, which I did NOT want, because I'm running out of money and my parents are the ones supporting me right now (along with unemployment and government charity). I have no right on Earth to ask such questions, and no right to feel this way, because of my circumstances and my supposed status as a Christian. At least, that's how I feel right now.

I feel abandoned, and like no one understands. I feel like if the people around me knew what I really thought, and how I really felt, then they would judge me negatively, and condemn me (withdraw their friendship/love/etc. from me, because I'm "supposed to be a Christian" and not the way I am right now). Am I an ungrateful--er, female dog in heat? Perhaps, but I keep feeling guilty because I KNOW I shouldn't feel this way, and yet I do. I also feel guilty because I keep suspecting that the "love" I'm experiencing from others comes with strings attached.

If my pastor wants me to "lose my religion", then I have good news for him: I already have.

I've lost a lot more than that, too, and I find it absolutely impossible to "get over it" and "deal with it" like every good Christian should. I feel a void inside of me, a "zero". This is MY truth.

Sincerely,
Tysyacha
Ok... Everything you are saying, as i see, has been worked and has kind of a base but, i must say that, many things in bible are kind of mixed, because it was made by people of different thoughts, so you cannot blame anybody because it is sometimes contradictory, the case is that, you should believe what is more logical from your perspective.

And about the bad luck you had... Don't feel offended it's not my goal right now... That's kinda egoist, in theory, you are christian, or you claim to be one, being christian is not being perfect, is having some beliefs and fighting for them, there are people that are even worse than you and they still stare at people with peaceful eyes and smile. Don't think about how desperate you are, that is magnifying the problem, and we don't want that right?

And, PLEASE I WANT YOU TO READ THIS, you will probably say it's not true but it is.

You had bad luck in your life, and instead of searching a way to get what you want, you start crying and asking why god didn't give you the job you want. Do you think that someone who loves you would let you do nothing in life by yourself?

Also you gave too much importance to what surrounds you, rather than improving yourself, instead of thinking who's doing bad things, ask yourself what are you doing wrong.


All my wishes to help you

Kelvin

Moderator note [11-09-2011 02:44 PM]

Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Thanks mimartin


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Old 11-10-2011, 05:29 AM   #103
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For the record, I don't believe religious people are stupid.
Neither do I. I just think that they're brainwashed, as I was.
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For this reason I don't believe the human race will ever steer away from some form of religion, be it spiritual or totalitarian in the form of a country or state. At least not unless something radical happens with the human consciousness, possibly aided by technology in the future which will guide us away from our animalistic nature toward something very different.
Looks like we're just going to have to evolve beyond our need for it.
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Oh and congratulations on your sobriety Q, I'm well on my way myself. *fingers crossed*
Thanks for the kind words. For the record, I still drink, but not very often and it doesn't alter my perception to the point where I think that fairies are real.
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You don't have to "hate" or ignore totally, because the one who hears is as wise as the one who speaks.

You can have you're own beliefs, but they don't need to be the whole inverse of the ones from christian or jewish or whatever religion, just because they have done bad things before.
I'm fairly certain that I'm not going to devolve into an amoral savage simply because I've stopped believing in a deity.
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The problem is that religions, or, to be more accurate, communities of religions, are formed by people, people that have their pros and cons, and, well, somehow, you cannot blame them for what they did after all, who are we to blame people?
Are you saying that we shouldn't hold people responsible for their actions? Seriously?
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I always laugh when people blame religion for wars and the like. Not only it's an innacurate generalization, but they fail to see that people are the problem, not religion.
In a way you're right since it was people who invented religion in the first place.


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Old 11-10-2011, 10:23 AM   #104
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I'm fairly certain that I'm not going to devolve into an amoral savage simply because I've stopped believing in a deity.

Are you saying that we shouldn't hold people responsible for their actions? Seriously?
Noooooo, you misunderstood what i tried to say, Q. Possibly my fault, i didn't say everything with enough accuracy. I didn't mean he has to turn into an "amoral savage", don't be an extremist, come on... I meant that he should become an anti-religious people, just critizising every step they do. Also, religion is not based in a deity, not all of them, as i said, there are religions that are based in thinking about things that surround them, more like a phylosohpical way to live.


About the other thing... people are responsible of their actions, YES, but YOU ARE ALSO RESPONSIBLE OF YOURS, i think you should look at yourself first, not just once, or twice, always. You wouldn't have the need of critizising people if you were entirely perfect. The problem is that we all want the universe to be like we want, but we aren't like we should. We think the whole universe just works because of us, not literally, in a methaphorical way.


Also, i think the problem is NOT religion, most religions are based in a more intelligent phylosophy than what we just read. No offense for those that believe that the first 2 people in the world were Adam and Eve.. But, these things are stories, but what is hidden within them is what we don't see. When you see 2 friends fighting for something, you only see the fight and say, ¡Oh, my God!! (lol) but only some people see that is within that fight, feelings.... When we argue, we think we are so reasonable, we never look at ourselves correctly... Believe me, it is very hard for people to change their minds when they think something is as they think.

Well that was kinda an example...


Hope i am not misunderstood again.

Kelvin

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Old 11-14-2011, 10:05 PM   #105
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I'm poking in here now.

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in fact, if we followed the philosophy from any religion ( excepting those about satanism and so on )
Do you have any specific reasons to exclude satanic philosophies like LaVeyan Satanism other than they're anti-christian?
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there would be no need to have weapons, as we would not kill each other, we would just forgive and apologize, it would be a great world..
Have you ever read any religious book besides a whitewashed account of the new testament? I have never read books that justify incredibly immoral actions so cheerfully, because after all, they're on a mission for God.
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don't be an extremist, come on... I meant that he should become an anti-religious people, just critizising every step they do.
This is a bad thing?
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You wouldn't have the need of critizising people if you were entirely perfect.
If i had perfect eyesight, i wouldn't need glasses.....but unfortunately, i do. Regardless, whose definition of a perfect being would you choose to use? Yours?
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Also, i think the problem is NOT religion, most religions are based in a more intelligent phylosophy than what we just read.No offense for those that believe that the first 2 people in the world were Adam and Eve.. But, these things are stories, but what is hidden within them is what we don't see.
How is presenting metaphors as literal and factual stories in any way intelligent?
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:10 AM   #106
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I'm poking in here now.

1.Do you have any specific reasons to exclude satanic philosophies like LaVeyan Satanism other than they're anti-christian?
2.Have you ever read any religious book besides a whitewashed account of the new testament? I have never read books that justify incredibly immoral actions so cheerfully, because after all, they're on a mission for God.
3-This is a bad thing?
4-If i had perfect eyesight, i wouldn't need glasses.....but unfortunately, i do. Regardless, whose definition of a perfect being would you choose to use? Yours?
5.How is presenting metaphors as literal and factual stories in any way intelligent?
First of all, as i read your comment, i noticed that you're getting on the defensive. I didn't do that to any other one, i merely gave my opinion about this thread, but you're trying to be right, always, you know what i mean right? You , man, woman or zoidberg... are just questioning my answers just because you want to get better than me... Maybe not in a conscious way, and i know you'll be saying it's not true. Now that i explained how you felt inside when you read my comment i'll start to tell you what i think about your answers.


1. To be fully sincere, i have nothing to say about satanic followers, i just said that because many people would say, what about satanism? and start being annoying just like you now. I've been reading about LaVeyan, and i have to say that i don't fully agree with them, also i agree in some parts...

I agree with them in this: When in another’s home, show them respect or else do not go there. (Ok)

I don't agree with them in most of them, but i want to highlight this:
Stupidity -- It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid

- Ehem... What? So, if you're a satanic follower then you have commited one sin, stupidity, people going along with whatever they are told, come on, if so, that means you shouldn't change your mind, not even if you are wrong, so satanism goes just down.. You can never be a good satanic follower then...

Also Lack of Perspective, well, satanic people just joined that religion, and made it because they were angry of christianity, and they don't really know, they just follow this stuff as blind people. So that's the second sin.. Brainwashing is also another sin, so third auto-sin...

Ok i think it is obvious that LaVeyan satanism, no offense for him, is totally nonsense, if not, tell me what they meant when they did this, and i'll try to understand. ( Unlike many that hear, don't like, and ignore )

(all taken from wikipedia)

2. If we were perfect we would know, (tell me if i am wrong) what's better for everybody and ourselves, right? I have read other books, yes, and if you didn't notice, i am not christian, i'm just telling that you just start criticizing others and you don't look at yourself first. Tell me, are you good enough to stop looking at yourself and improving yourself..... and start looking at others?Why does the whole universe have to be the way you want, and not you being like you want first?


3. It is, i'm sorry that you don't agree with me, but after all... To be fully sincere you would prove to be better if you just ignored it, you would look quite more mature, rather that being so childish. Also about being an anti-religious.... What the heck did they do to you? They just created some beliefs to follow, and many people took these beliefs and used them to manipulate people.Not all the religious people are like that. If you just skipped that "page" of your life, and you don't care anymore about that, why are those things in your mind? If those thoughts are wandering in your head, it is because they are important to you, if not you would ignore it.

4. See? You are getting on the defensive. You start criticizing things that maybe aren't that weird if you think a little.

In a logic way, if you are perfect, your thoughts tend to be perfect, and you tend to think about things that lead to at least, useful things. Thinking about how bad he is, this and the other, just proves you aren't perfect, i'm not saying you should be perfect, but that should be something you always tried to achieve. Also... What's up with your eyes? Do you think people with glasses are inferior? ( See, now i'm getting on the defensive ) if you don't like your eyes it is your problem.

I can also take things out of proportion :P. Answer me what you think about people with glasses...

5. Methapors is an intelligent way to say something, reading beneath texts is an intelligent way to read.

Did i offend you in any of my comments? Please tell me if i did. It was not my intention.

PD: Really, do you think satanism is ok? Do you think that if someone annoys you he must die? "nonsense"

Last edited by Kelvin; 11-16-2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Adding PD
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:08 PM   #107
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a whitewashed account of the new testament?
Care to explain that?



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Old 11-15-2011, 07:12 PM   #108
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First of all, as i read your comment, i noticed that you're getting on the defensive. I didn't do that to any other group, i merely gave my opinion about this thread, but you're trying to have all the reason, you know what i mean right? You , man, woman or zoidberg... are just questioning my answers just because you want to get better than me... Maybe not in a conscious way, and i know you'll be saying it's not true. Now that i explained how you felt inside when you read my comment i'll start to tell you what i think about your answers.


At first I merely suspected, mainly due to the language barrier, but this latest post pretty much confirms it.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:30 AM   #109
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Care to explain that?
That was referring to Kelvin's statement of if everyone followed religions, the world would be filled with puppies and chocolate. (I paraphrased a bit)

To give the first example I can think of: When Fuhrer Christ tries to get food from a fig tree and fails, he decides to make the tree wither. So, since Jesus couldn't sin, I suppose the moral of the story was it's fine to harm living organisms for no reason other than if they don't give you want you want.

So, I think it's obvious that Kelvin's statement of "we would just forgive and apologize, it would be a great world.." is not backed up with this passage.

(Now, obviously this doesn't seem quite that bad because it was "only" a plant, but consider: I would not want to make a defense based around that supposition, because as God incarnate Jesus should have an unusually high moral sense, and, I would argue, should not curse anything.)
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:24 PM   #110
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At first I merely suspected, mainly due to the language barrier, but this latest post pretty much confirms it.
Confirm... What? And what do you mean with that picture... Is that you? Ahhh.. Sorry, but since this comment seems to contribute to this thread, and you are just trying to annoy me... I'll just ask you... How did you feel when you sent that comment? Did you feel fine? Better than before writing? Let's just say, we Agree to Disagree, you all have different thoughts, i tried to make you see w hat i saw, and chose between both... but i see people are more stubborn than a donkey.


Quote:
That was referring to Kelvin's statement of if everyone followed religions, the world would be filled with puppies and chocolate. (I paraphrased a bit)
Hhahahah, well that might have been a little weird... What i tried to explain, is, for instance, most religions talk about "sins" right? such as proud and so on. Well, if we didn't have any problem with ourselves, we wouldn't have problems with others, and yes, we all have problems with ourselves, we are stubborn, greedy or whatever. You may say no, but can you tell me a case, which people argue or fight or anything, without having personal problems?

You just don't get that the bird is the word. xD. I mean uhhh!! We all try to change things from the outside, but we cannot change them if we dont change us first, improve ourselves, if you are so stubborn and blind to think you are the best, and perfect, then, that is your problem. If i gave you and advice and you threw it, you wouldn't be as perfect as you might think, because intelligent people are those who listen, and think, not those that listen what they think.

PD: By the way, i think i'll show you an example of what is reading smartly.

Do you know Islam? Do you think all those crazy guys that kill others because they're not islamic did read correctly?

Nobody said these stories were factual, and people tend to misunderstand everything, because people tend to spend just a little, little amount of energy, and just think enough to undestand the tales.

Yihad means spiritual fight with oneself, to finally become someone better, but all the people just read this and think it is about military fighting.

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Old 11-16-2011, 04:50 PM   #111
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Alright everyone calm down and take a deep breath before posting. If you believe a post violates the rules then please use the report post button and do not resort to name calling or other rules violations.

Religion or that lack thereof can be deeply personal so please treat it with some respect. If you don’t like someone’s belief or opinion, then feel free to ignore their post or even them.


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Old 12-08-2011, 08:49 AM   #112
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Okay, I read your original post and if someone else has said anything similar, than I apologize in advance for being redundant as this is a long thread.

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Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
1) On the ONE hand, my pastor talked about love--specifically how (God's) love is sacrificial and unconditional. This is consistent with what I've been (doctrinally) taught about God's love.

-1) On the OTHER hand, along with this message of love, he talked about the bad news--what I call "the catch": "Some people are condemned already, because they don't believe in Jesus."

If God's love is supposed to be unconditional, and "condemnation" means an eternal withdrawal of God's love--that's what I believe that Hell is--then isn't "belief in Jesus" a condition of God's love? If you don't believe in Jesus, say my pastor and church, then you will be judged guilty and separated forever from God and His love. How, then, can they honestly say that God's love is unconditional? To me, this is a crystal-clear example of what Orwell called doublethink.
This is where man and God conflict, hence why there are so many religions in the world. Where in the Bible does it say you have to believe in Jesus in order to be loved by God? If it exists, I want someone to point that out. Keep in mind I said love, not saved. There is a difference.


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2) On the ONE hand, my pastor talked about the very beginning of John 3:16. It says, "For God so loved the world..." Meaning, God loved all the people in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of time. Fair enough, say I, because as my pastor also exclaimed, "God IS love!"

-2) On the OTHER hand, he talked about how WE, as HUMANS, not just as Christians, are "born bad". If God despises evil--things that are bad--which I'm sure my pastor and I both agree that He does, then how can God love US if we're BORN bad/evil? If God loves all the people in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of time, and yet such people are every-single-one-of-them BORN evil, then the concept of God's love makes no sense at all. It's utterly contradictory, and another brilliant example of what Orwell deemed doublethink.
Again, this is a man taught belief and your pastor isn't the first one to teach such crap. Where in the Bible does it say that we are born bad? If I missed where it said that, please point that out.

I believe that children are innocent and are automatically saved until there are old enough to understand the choices they make. That makes more sense to me.

Let's say a child is born and let's say the child dies like 2 hours later because of a complication or something. Are you really going to tell me that this child who died shortly after being born is going to hell? Bull crap. That child is innocent and has not nothing wrong yet and never had the mental capability to make right or wrong decisions.


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Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
This next example might be the most insidious of all.

3) On the ONE hand, my pastor talked about how living in God's grace and mercy means "you have nothing to lose (because you've gained salvation through Christ) and nothing to prove (because you don't have to try and win God's love anymore. Jesus did all the 'proving' for you)."

-3) On the OTHER hand, his view on salvation is called the "perseverance of the saints," meaning that if you not only continue having faith, but also if "your life reflects your faith in Jesus" (meaning you do enough good deeds and don't swear/don't drink/don't slander or gossip/don't cheat, etc.) THEN you will be saved. He made the point that "you can't just pray a prayer that invites Jesus into your heart and then live your life sinning all you want." Fair enough--I hate hypocrisy anyway. However, isn't this another condition of God's supposedly unconditional salvation? I'd hate to be on my deathbed worrying if I'd been pure enough, and done enough good deeds, to be authentically saved. Underneath all of my pastor and church's pious words and rhetoric, is it REALLY the truth that I have everything to lose (my salvation) and everything to prove (myself and my "genuine relationship with God") through my good deeds? I was wrong--there is a fourth example that blows the previous three away:
Sounds like your pastor hasn't through what he says before he says it. Though he isn't the first to do so about this topic.

I believe we are accountable for our choices and if we make good choices we will be saved. And those who never had the opportunity to learn of God and Jesus will so in the afterlife. And I'm also including those who have been turned off to religion because of some man taught beliefs and learning of history of man where religion was forced on people and turned them off to it. Believe me, man has corrupted many things taught by God and they will be held accountable for those they have turned away from God for their actions.

The point I'm trying to make is if you're a good person, you will be saved. It doesn't make sense for a good person to not be saved.


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Originally Posted by Tysyacha View Post
4) On the ONE hand, my pastor made the point that God wants a real relationship with us.

-4) On the OTHER hand, he also made the point that "our response, and our relationship with God, must be genuine (in order for all of this to work)." However, he never told us who decides what is and is not a "genuine" relationship with God. Supposedly, God should and does, but he never said that explicitly. That worries me. Thoughts? I have a knot in the pit of my stomach...
Sounds more like a personal insecurity to me. Just try to be as genuine as possible. Remember we're human beings and we won't be perfect about what we do and I'm sure God will forgive all your shortcomings if you truly did the best you could have done.


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Old 01-06-2012, 03:45 PM   #113
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"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:53 AM   #114
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(NOTE: This is an open letter that I first wrote to one of my best LF friends.)

******

I feel like if the people around me knew what I really thought, and how I really felt, then they would judge me negatively, and condemn me (withdraw their friendship/love/etc. from me, because I'm "supposed to be a Christian" and not the way I am right now).

******

Sincerely,
Tysyacha
I realize this thread is rather old, but I don't see why the topic should stay dead forever just because no one has discussed it recently.

I just wanted to say that I've gone through something similar to your experience over the last few years, especially the part I quoted. 5 years ago, I was about as "Christian" as they come, or at least I thought I was. Since then, I've spent countless hours going back over things that preachers, youth leaders, parents, and friends have told me about god and the consequences of "leaving" him, analyzing it to death from every direction. Because of these "consequences" I had nailed into my brain over the years, I was honestly too scared to fully admit to myself that I didn't believe any of it anymore until about 2 or 3 months ago.

At this point, I guess I would describe myself as atheist, and I'm now fully comfortable with that, though none of my friends or family know yet. I haven't decided when or how I'm going to tell them (oddly enough, I think it will be my friends who are more upset than my family), but I should hope they would be mature enough to show the level of civility to calmly discuss the matter that the people in this thread have shown.


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Old 05-30-2012, 04:42 AM   #115
Shem
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What a lot of people who claim to be good Christians forget is this scripture in Matthew: Chapter 7: Versus 1-2.

1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


Yet, a lot of people out there pass judgement quickly on people who seem to not understand something taught on the Sermon on the Mount.


Interested in hosting a your KOTOR or TSL mod at FileFront? Send your mod HERE and we'll validate it as soon as we can! FileFront is a good way to get publicity for your mod as we get 1000's of visitors everyday. Is my LucasForum PM box full again? If you really need to reach me, PM me at YouTube under the username: Shem L -- Watch my KOTOR videos! Download my mods from FileFront!

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