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Old 12-08-2011, 07:00 PM   #1
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Forming a more perfect Union

In another thread I was thinking of throwing out the current government and replacing it. It got me thinking of What I would like to see in a replacement government. Include something along the lines of "Any politician caught in any type of corruption will lose his citizenship, all his possessions will be auctioned off to pay back the people, and be placed in a row boat in the middle of the Atlantic." And "Any pay raise for the elected officials MUST be taken to a vote of the entirety of the electorate."

Of course the jerk in me would also like for it to be a requirement for all citizens to pay taxes. Those that forego citizenship and all rights afforded to it may choose not to pay Federal taxes(states may still charge taxes on those individuals). If you have no money in play then you shouldn't be making decisions on how others are forced to spend theirs. And combine it with a Base 15% tax across the board(Minimum no matter how many deductions). and progressively up to 35% for the top tier.

Then there's the part of me that some will call a complete A-Hole that says: Federal assistance should not be free money handed out to people. In fact Federal assistance should not provide any money at all. You should be required to test monthly for drug use, and any use of illicit drugs will immediately terminate any benefits you are receiving from Federal aid. Federal assistance should afford you temporary housing in a Federally maintained facility. All those within the facility will be aware that there is no smoking, drinking or illicit drug use permitted on property. You are there to get back on your feet. You cannot do that while wasting what you get on those things(And this is from a smoker who drinks). Food shall be provided in the cafeteria at no cost, and clothes will be provided. In order to help you get back on your feet, rather than cutting you off the moment you make more than is required to maintain your benefits(as our system does now), you will have a one month "grace period." Education may also be provided to assist with learning job skills, or to reinforce the job skills you already have.

I know that part will probably make the more Liberal people scream bloody murder, think of what it does:
1) Provides food Shelter and Clothing to the needy.
2) It does not reward people with money that may be used to repeat a cycle of bad habits.
3) it provides an incentive to get back to work(who wants to eat cafeteria food all the time)
4) It prevents fraud because you cannot cheat the system to get more money. You MIGHT be able to sell the clothing you get, but.. The simple fix is to make that clothing less desirable.

At any rate, I've got my ideas for how to make the a new country. What would you say would make a more perfect Union?


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:34 PM   #2
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Less corporate control and switch the primary resource industry to alternative energy and production, really the latter primarily it is imperative that the United States lead an Earth-friendly eco-future movement and set a positive example for urryone else, or whatever. Massive peace initiatives through diplomacy and good deeds. First and foremost we solve the debt, by, uh, getting out of debt, and once we're in the black we work with the new green (/sane and sustainable real-time) industries for a better economic and environmental future.

Though starting from scratch is appealing to me as well, I would just do the things I said above, and it would be faster and better but also less stable and less legit, obviously since the United States government is like terminal cancer we've got the world in choke hold if we're trying to shake it, but really I think the USA is a valuable presence in the modern world, American bias and all that accounted for hehe.

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Old 12-08-2011, 10:00 PM   #3
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:18 AM   #4
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Trying to stay away from political threads lately, but this one intrigues me.

First I don’t see any reason for a new system of government. The Constitution of the United States is adaptive enough to change with the times.

Second, corporate greed is a myth. Corporations are not real. People are where the greed comes from. It is human nature, so without getting rid of people, you are not going to get rid of corporate greed. Personally, I’m not even against the greed. To me in a capitalist system greed is good. What I am against is paying people for failure. If a CEO makes the corporation and the stockholders money while providing a value to the corporations’ clients, then he/she deserves every penny. However, when a CEO takes the corporation to bankruptcy, requires bailout and/or defrauds investors, then he/she does not deserve to be rewarded. In a capitalist system, we should not be rewarding failure.

I really find it funny that people dismiss the Occupy Wall Street people because some crap in the street or some have committed crimes, but say nothing about the arguments that got these people out there in the first place. Yeah, that CEO ran the corporation into the ground and now the employees retirement is gone, so what of it, you poop in the streets. Go get a job!

What I believe that really needs to be overhauled is not our government, economic system or even our political system, but our election system and how people get access to those in power.

I would start with these two.

1). A elected official can receive zero dollars as a gift. Taking gifts, money, meals, travel… gives the appearance of bribery and has no place in government. Elected officials are compensated with a salary and their constituents should not have to pay for access to their elected official.

2.) All money received for the purpose of a campaign must be reported and accounted for. It is also becomes public record. Even money for PACs must state for public record all that contributed to that account. So Called “Soft Money” given to the political parties would also require the same accounting. Unions, Christian Originations and other groups like the NRA would have to provide the same accounting should they advertise for or against any candidate. Any group that now how a tax exempt status, risk it being revoked for active involvement in campaigning for a candidate even if done thought the charade of a PAC.



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Old 12-10-2011, 03:04 AM   #5
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My real problem with OWS is their target. Going after corporations rather than the government that caused the problem.

mimartin, I agree with you that the Constitution is adaptive enough to change with the times. However, with politicians in control of it no real change will take place until they are all removed at once. Honestly too many people put their faith in politicians. As if SOMEHOW Obama could affect real change in DC. He didn't have that kind of power. He never did. No one person could. The corruption in Washington goes too deep.

Oh and another thing. NO LOBBIESTS. Even though I may agree with some(say the NRA) I still feel than NONE of them should be there. They do not represent the people of the US. They are not elected. Especially in this day and age, there is no reason the governed can't get their message to a representative. Why do we need a whole industry based solely on wooing politicians.

Parties. They should not exist. There should be no blanket I'll vote for everyone with a D or R next to their name. Vote based on the merit of the candidate. Agree or disagree with them, choose based on who you want.

Also lets limit how much a candidate can spend on a campaign. Say no more than $1M. That way it's not the one with the deepest pockets that wins. Personally I think that no person who runs for office should have made more than 10% above the average pay in the area they represent for 6 years prior. This way they really represent the average worker. Their pay while in office should be 10% above the average pay in the represented area.

Health care: This one is tricky. On one side I would like to ensure that every person receives health care. On the other, I don't want there to be something that drives up the need for revenue. Perhaps require all employers with over 20 employees to offer some form of health insurance to their employees. Failure to do so will cost the company 50% of their income regardless of expenses. As it is now, it's actually cheaper for a company to opt out and pay the fine rather than offer benefits at all.

Social Security: I'm going to go ahead and say this one, I really don't know what to do with. It's too expensive to keep operating. But too dangerous to leave off.

Revenue stream idea: Why does the government only offer lower interest loans than everyone else? Why not offer a higher interest loan with no credit check? This keeps the interest rate for lenders lower without having to micromanage new legislation. Have these loans similar to how student loans work now where if you default on them they can just take it from you. Have it run by the IRS.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:34 AM   #6
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My real problem with OWS is their target. Going after corporations rather than the government that caused the problem.
disagree to the point, they are going after another problem. It is like in my family cancer is the major killer. So it is the major problem and the one I focus my major contributions to. However, I don’t have a problem with people that donate money to charities supporting research for Aids, Heart Disease or Diabetes.

The government and especially the ability of money to buy access to our elected officials have contributed the problem both by corporation and unions, but the government had nothing to do with forcing financial corporations’ into risky investments. Yes, the government had the grand idea of making home loan easier, but the government didn’t force banks and mortgagees to leverage that risk in a attempt for greater profits.

You are not blaming the government for this are you? Because if you are it would pretty much have to be for the governments lack of oversight and regulation. I know that can't be the case.

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Health care: This one is tricky. On one side I would like to ensure that every person receives health care. On the other, I don't want there to be something that drives up the need for revenue. Perhaps require all employers with over 20 employees to offer some form of health insurance to their employees. Failure to do so will cost the company 50% of their income regardless of expenses. As it is now, it's actually cheaper for a company to opt out and pay the fine rather than offer benefits at all.
This one isn’t that tricky you really only have a few choices.

1. Go back to the old system. Pay health insurance or don’t. Either way you get treated and the health care system passes the cost of the uninsured/non-payer on to those that pay. Either the health insurance company or the consumer that pays their expense out-of-pocket. Then the health insurance passes on that expense to their customers. Or the health care system writes off the expense and pass it on to the tax payer. So the responsible individual that either has health care pays double the expense. 1. They pay for the uninsured by either paying their original bill or health insurance premiums. 2. More of their tax dollars are used to make up for those written off by the health care system. Burden only those that are responsible enough to pay health insurance or can afford to pay them out of pocket.

2. Go back to the old system except make it so the health care industry does not have to provide coverage for those that cannot pay or is uninsured. Heartless, but it would weed out the irresponsible in society. Of course it would also weed out the responsible, but merely down on the luck. Puts the responsibility on everyone for their own health care expense.

3. Make everyone that can afford it buy health care. Places the burden on all that can afford it.

4. Universal health care. Places the burden on everyone.

Personally I would have choicen 3 or 4, leaning toward 3. I know that isn't very liberal of me.
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. But too dangerous to leave off.
Same could be say for the military budget.


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Old 12-10-2011, 11:54 AM   #7
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As to my point about the government being the problem: It's that government is too closely tied to the people they SHOULD be regulating, so choose not to. In a sense Yes, it is about the lack of oversight and regulation. Crooked politician is pretty much redundant.

Here's why I feel it's tricky: In one sense, you are forcing people to buy a product that they may not need or want(ie the problem people have with the Health Care Bill). While young kids may not need or want insurance(because they are superheroes who never get sick or hurt /sarcasm) the elderly almost always need some form of medical care. Perhaps if all persons who wanted to opt out of health insurance could opt for a Federal care system as the alternative. In which your bill would be added to your tax burden. This way you pay for your own health care. Non-citizens would be exempt from all of this. If you are not a citizen you must pay your own bill.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:54 PM   #8
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As regards the OWS issue, the problem isn't merely one or the other, but rather both. It's naive to think that the government is mostly blameless for the housing (or really any other regulatory issue) problem. Had the government not backstopped these mortgages, and cooked its own books to boot, we also wouldn't be talking about this. Further, you have to take into the "liar loans" designed to allow consumers to fudge info that made them eligible for loans they had no hope of ever affording in the first place in order to satisfy politicians and bureaucrats that their directives (read as veiled threats for "affordable housing") were being followed. It'd be much more correct to assert that govt, business and dishonest consumers have brought us to this big mess. Washington was willing to look the other way as long as it could claim that "affordable housing" was being accomplished.......but look at the sticker shock. Also, it's not really a matter of govt needing massive regulatory powers, rather of enforcing what's on the books (much like with gun control). I wonder, though, how many people are going to be prosecuted for fraud for "misstating" their financial worth in order to get homes they couldn't afford to satisfy DC's goal of "affordable housing for all". Business makes a great whipping boy for some, but they couldn't do it alone. Lastly, on OWS, it has shot itself in the foot/overstayed its welcome b/c of the manner in which it has conducted itself. My guess is that most people who still have romanticized visions of OWS wouldn't have reacted similiarly if people they didn't agree with (TP or others) carried on in the same way.

Frankly, there's nothing wrong with lobbying your govt official, but it should stop short of them having massive financial sway over Washington (state/local pols either). The rules, like the tax code, should be simple, but strictly enforced. No need for "compliance" offices or armies of lawyers and accountants to interpret rules...ie keep it all KISS simple, but enforce the rules and stop looking the other way.

Not that big on Ron Paul, but he was correct that if people decide not to get insurance, society is not obligated to come to their rescue. Doesn't mean that someone won't, but they aren't required. But even insurance policies are really little more than band-aids on a hemorrhaging wound for anything serious. Problem with insurance is you're either overpaying if you live w/o ever getting seriously ill or you're tapping into someone else's money to cover high bills. Also why Medicare and Social Security are huge problems. Many people pay less into these "ponzi schemes" than they're likely to collect b/c of the increase in lifespans since the programs were initially designed/passed.

As regards the issue of political parties, it's debatable as to whether we should have them. What we should have, though, is a more informed electorate that takes its responsibilities seriously. As it is, parties do unfortunately allow for a lazy attitude as described above. It's been said you get the govt you deserve. If you don't take voting rights and responsibilities seriously, you've sacrificed your right to bitch on the alter of convenience.

Also, I wish someone would drive a stake thorough this progressive concept of a "living, breathing, evolving Constitution". It essentially translates into "whatever we want it to mean" by those in power. The constitution is flexible, yes, but not amorphous.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 12-10-2011, 01:31 PM   #9
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Old 12-10-2011, 04:21 PM   #10
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As regards the OWS issue, the problem isn't merely one or the other, but rather both. It's naive to think that the government is mostly blameless for the housing (or really any other regulatory issue) problem.
Please show me where the government had these financial institutions turn subprime mortgagees into an investment opportunities.

Show me where the government made these companies lower their loan standards even more because these bundled home loan sold so well as investment and the companies were making so much more they ran out of qualified applicants.

Show me where the government made people buy these loans as an investment (before the bubble burst, I know the government stepped in after the problem was known).

Yes we would have had a problem and the government deserves a large part of the blame, but the problem was made triple because of corporations speculating and leveraging their investments. Had these loans not been leveraged we would have had something similar to the savings and loan meltdown of late 1980’s. Not something dangerously close to the great depression.


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Old 12-10-2011, 05:28 PM   #11
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Perhaps, mim, if I had stated that business bore NO responsibility, you'd have a point. But I didn't. Further, had Fannie and Freddie not backstopped these investments, it's also likely it would have primarily been restricted to the banks/private sector and liikely foreign govts that bought the stuff. Since I indicted the govt, banks AND irresponsible homeowners for the entire mess.....I'm gonna let it rest as is. This whole thing unraveled from a systemic failure that reached beyond merely the bankers. I don't mind throwing those guys to the wolves, so long as people like Chris Dodd and Barney Frank and their ilk get thrown under the bus as well.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 12-10-2011, 05:41 PM   #12
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Why not add George W Bush to that? One of his compassionate conservative things was getting everyone a house/

And no you did not state business bore no responsibility, NOR did I write or even imply that you did? You just seem to be misinformed into thinking the government is more to blame than the corporations and seem to be unwilling to show me evidence to prove your point.

Since you are unwilling to show the evidence to prove your point that the government is MORE responsible than the financial institutions, I will leave. Have to remember liberals, government and athiets are the most to blame for everything


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Old 12-10-2011, 05:43 PM   #13
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Is a load of bull****, in particular part 1.



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Old 12-11-2011, 12:09 AM   #14
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Why not add George W Bush to that? One of his compassionate conservative things was getting everyone a house/

And no you did not state business bore no responsibility, NOR did I write or even imply that you did? You just seem to be misinformed into thinking the government is more to blame than the corporations and seem to be unwilling to show me evidence to prove your point.

Since you are unwilling to show the evidence to prove your point that the government is MORE responsible than the financial institutions, I will leave. Have to remember liberals, government and athiets are the most to blame for everything
@mim--Since I didn't apportion degrees of blame to any one party, I'll treat this as you putting words in my mouth again. If it'll make you happy, you can throw Hank Paulson, Cox and Bush into the grinder as well w/my blessing.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman

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Old 12-11-2011, 01:32 AM   #15
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@mim--Since I didn't apportion degrees of blame to any one party, I'll treat this as you putting words in my mouth again.
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so long as people like Chris Dodd and Barney Frank and their ilk get thrown under the bus as well.
Chris Dodd - democrat
Barney Frank - democrat

I see no one from the other political party. You seemed to have singled out only democrats for some reason.


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Old 12-11-2011, 02:24 AM   #16
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Chris Dodd - democrat
Barney Frank - democrat

I see no one from the other political party. You seemed to have singled out only democrats for some reason.
"And their ilk" kinda covered that though. Quite frankly it's this partisan defense that is becoming a problem. "Your party did it, Why not say them too?" Sorry, if the first names we come up with happen to be Democrats. But we don't hold Republicans blameless in the mess. Actually if you really understood the Tea Party you would realize that it's our dissatisfaction with BOTH parties and ESPECIALLY OUR OWN that caused us to join that movement. Bush, Clinton, Obama, ALL of them deserve some blame for this mess(Hey if Obama can claim it's all Bush's fault 3 years after he's been elected, SURELY Bush could claim Clinton is to blame for everything that happened within the first 3 years). Have we gotten so polarized that when someone mentions the government as the issue people automatically assume we're saying "The government except my party?" Chris Dodd and Barney Frank were in charge of Committees that should have regulated FNMA and FDMC. Why wouldn't they get mentioned? Fanny and Freddy gave greater than 50% of their contributions to the party in charge of congress in both 06 and 08(swapped from Republican to Democrat). It's just who is in charge at the time getting mentioned.


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Old 12-11-2011, 02:34 AM   #17
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Everyone did try to blame Clinton for everything bad that happened the first 3 years, incuding 9/11/2001.


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Old 12-11-2011, 02:58 AM   #18
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Everyone did try to blame Clinton for everything bad that happened the first 3 years, incuding 9/11/2001.

Bush didn't, but that's besides the point I was making. We could probably go back to the 70's and 80's with blame for what has happened now. It is not limited to party. It is a problem with government being able to be bought.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:41 AM   #19
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Who is the one saying party is to blame? I suggest you read all my post in this thread before implying it is me because I did not. If anything besides the lack of regulation that I do spread around the blame, but give most to Bush. I believe the Bush Administration saved us from another great depression. Too bad they waited until after the fact to act. This is where preemptive attack would of actually been nice.

I am saying that financial institutions are more to blame than the government. Not because I believe it to be the case, but because I know it for a fact. Yes, everyone shares in the blame for the economic meltdown, but had the problem not been compounded by the banking industry and other financial institutions then the magnitude of the problems would not have been the near melt down of our entire financial system.

The government did not force banks into leveraging the risk.

The government did not force banks into making even riskier loans to individuals in order to sell what seemed at the time as highly profitable bundled mortgagees.

The government did not force AIG to insure more loan than it could possibly cover.

The government did not force Lehman Brothers and other financial institutions to purchase these bundled subprime mortgagees. (talking before the meltdown, not after).

The government did not force loan officers to ignore their job and give loans to people for more house than they could possibly afford. Yes, the loan officers’ job is to protect the consumer from themselves.

Yes, you both have covered what the government did wrong and I do agree that the consumers also did wrong but without the utter greed of these “so-called” intelligent people in the financial markets the meltdown would have been less. How much less is debatable, but if you look at profits and projected profits before the crisis then there is no doubt that it is more than half.


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Old 12-11-2011, 06:26 AM   #20
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Is a load of bull****, in particular part 1.
Believe what you want brother. Just sayin' that we can't take an old, outdated model and expect to do something new with it. It'll just lead back to the same place even with different "better" people involved.

Now what would this "radical new model" be? no idea. I'm just glad there are people out there (like the Zeitgeist movement for example) who come up with new ideas and hope.

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Old 12-11-2011, 11:36 AM   #21
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Chris Dodd - democrat
Barney Frank - democrat

I see no one from the other political party. You seemed to have singled out only democrats for some reason.
Tommy pretty much covered that above.

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Everyone did try to blame Clinton for everything bad that happened the first 3 years, incuding 9/11/2001.
"Everyone" pretty much decided that Bush was responsible for 9-11 after less than a year of gaining office. I can say, though, as regards partisan finger pointing, you usually list reps (Bush or Cheney or fill-in-the-blank) when complaining about govt malfeasance. I don't recall you ever singling out a democrat for blame unless pushed first. I also don't let that bother me. Though I've been too lazy to change affiliation, I don't feel bound to vote someone just b/c they belong to one party (and you've indicated similiarly of yourself), but it's clear that both parties have continued to fail America. If you think I've been overly unfair to dems, consider it "equal time", as reps get routinely bashed in LF. See no reason to flog a dead horse when there's a living one standing right next to it.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:41 PM   #22
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At any rate, I've got my ideas for how to make the a new country. What would you say would make a more perfect Union?
A few things which might help (not saying these are perfect, or even terribly well thought out, but it's a start)--

Overturn Citizens United.

Make it illegal for there to be any political donations by corporations except to a central, traceable, evenly distributed public fund for each particular election which goes to any politician with over ~3% support.

Require all direct political donations to be made by an individual. Cap those donations at some low number (possibly a percentage of the previous elections's total funding for all candidates), and have anything over that go into the general election fund.

Make any private "perk" aka bribe given by someone to an elected official under $1500 various degrees of misdemeanor... for both parties. Anything over $1500? Felony.

Alter federal election laws to have "instant-runoff" style ballots. Eliminate primaries since instant runoffs would make those obsolete.

Eliminate "winner takes all" style election rules in various states.

Make it a legal requirement that all house bills must be written by a member of the legislative body and read by every legislator voting on them. When deciding on a subject with which the legislature has no expertise, a panel of experts must be brought in and issue a publicly available recommendation. If a politician votes against the panel's recommendation, he must publish his explicit reasons for doing so.

Make all bills "one subject", or they cannot pass. No attaching funding for bridges in Alaska to defense appropriations bills.

I'm sure there's more things that could be done if I thought about it a little more...


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 12-18-2011, 03:18 PM   #23
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I think that if you're including unions amongst the corporations, that'd probably be fair. No group donations, no bundling, no foreign contributions and no forcing anyone to make contributions to a candidate or party they don't support (as often happens in unions or indirectly with corporate types who "bundle money" from subordinates for whomever the bosses want to give their money).

Also, make "insider trading" as illegal for politicians as it is for the rest of us. No reason their investments should do so much better than everyone elses.

Your ideas about the size and scope of bills doesn't require much further tinkering. All bills should basically be simple with only a few pages at most and no riders allowed. It's not like they are so over worked that they can't handle that kind of load. No more excuses from legislators that they didn't have the time or skill to decipher a bill (think Obamacare, for instance).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:19 AM   #24
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Your ideas about the size and scope of bills doesn't require much further tinkering. All bills should basically be simple with only a few pages at most and no riders allowed
Sorry, but simple doesn't work. Bills become laws and laws must be written so that they hold up in the judiciary, otherwise they are useless or worse they can cost citizens money. Ask my great state about what happened in the early 1990s with the mold crisis. Easy read insurance policies sounded great on paper, but in practice we are still paying higher than necessary home and fire insurance rates.

Agee with you 100% on the "insider trading", too bad the Repubicans killed it so that can "improve" it later. Never do today, what you can put off until you make more money off the people.

Last edited by mimartin; 12-19-2011 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:35 AM   #25
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Well, given the the regularity with which Nancy Pelosi was staying ahead of the market, I doubt the dems were doing much either. Fact is, the dems have controlled Congress the last half of Bush's term and the first half of BO's and didn't do anything themselves. Regardless, neither party has made any real move to end it. Typical given the history of the federal govt and Congress in general. As to the bills, there has to be a more practical solution than overly-complex pieces of legislation that even the legislators don't understand despite voting to pass nonetheless.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:49 AM   #26
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As to the bills, there has to be a more practical solution than overly-complex pieces of legislation that even the legislators don't understand despite voting to pass nonetheless.
Don't elect idiots to Congress?
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:39 AM   #27
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Don't elect idiots to Congress?
Quaint notion. I thought the idiots were selected by both parties to be more easily controlled once they got to DC.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:28 PM   #28
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...too bad the Repubicans killed it...
This is ironic given you were the one talking about how another poster only mentioned Democrats. Yet the one you were responding to made no mention of party.

I like the "Simple bill" idea. No more sneaking in pet projects into a bill. A current example is the pipeline being added to the current Payroll Tax bill. I may agree with the pipeline, however it doesn't need to be in the payroll tax bill. Let it stand or fall on it's own merits.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:32 PM   #29
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This is ironic given you were the one talking about how another poster only mentioned Democrats. Yet the one you were responding to made no mention of party.
I wasn't picking on a party, was just stating a fact. Fact is it was killed my a committee chairman with a R next to his name. It made it out of committee in the Senate where the chairman has a D next to his name. I guess facts can be ironic sometimes.

I could have pointed at John Boehner when someone mentioned Nancy Pelosi, but I didn't mainly because it is perfectly legal (unethical as hell) for them to use information to trade at this time, at least according to the justice department. Which I think is complete bull, but then again I'm no lawyer. I thought torture was illegal too. So what do I know. So by killing the bill they keep the status quo.

Last edited by mimartin; 12-19-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:25 PM   #30
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Agee with you 100% on the "insider trading", too bad the Repubicans killed it so that can "improve" it later. Never do today, what you can put off until you make more money off the people.
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Well, given the the regularity with which Nancy Pelosi was staying ahead of the market, I doubt the dems were doing much either.
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I could have pointed at John Boehner when someone mentioned Nancy Pelosi......
You're being a bit disingenuous in suggesting (or perhaps in attempting to have people infer) that most of the fault belongs w/Republicans. By citing Nancy Pelosi, after you took pains to blame the Reps, I was only providing equal time. However, in using the word either I was balancing out your original charge by pointing out that both parties are at fault in preserving these kinds of perks for their own, regardless of party label.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:04 PM   #31
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what the hell are you writing about now?

The Republican did kill the bill, that is a fact. What did you want me to say the head of the committe who will remain partyless killed the bill. It didn't need to be balance because the democrates in the senate actually did what they were suppose to.

I didn't blame the Republicans.... I STATED A FACT, NOT AN OPINION.

I will remember that I can only be site bad things about the Dems in the furture.

Last edited by mimartin; 12-19-2011 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:26 PM   #32
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What are you flippin' out about now? You're constantly trying to portray the Republicans as the sole or primary source of financial skullduggery on the Hill and then chastising others for allegedly being partisan. I never made mention of who killed what bill THIS TIME. Both sides constantly play games like this. You still don't get that I (or even others) don't give a rat's ass about which side did what. The govt is basically a bipartisan mess, but I'll remember for futurer reference that YOU are the one that wishes to blame only one side while accusing others of same.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:32 PM   #33
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The ability of politicians to insider trade and for supposed government employees to accidentally lose billions of dollars is ridiculous, I think. (Corzine, anyone?) The federal government should be stripped of its ability to cherry pick economic programs. The Federal Reserve should be audited, and ridiculous ideas like this Keystone **** should not be under the authority of the Fed to implement.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:15 PM   #34
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what the hell are you writing about now?

The Republican did kill the bill, that is a fact. What did you want me to say the head of the committe who will remain partyless killed the bill. It didn't need to be balance because the democrates in the senate actually did what they were suppose to.

I didn't blame the Republicans.... I STATED A FACT, NOT AN OPINION.

I will remember that I can only be site bad things about the Dems in the furture.
It was not a fact. It was YOUR opinion that postponing it until next year meant Republicans killed it. Many Republicans are co-sponsors of this bill. To blame the party as opposed to say the committee was at best disingenuous. You would have been better served to say "Too bad the House Committee decided to table it until next year" if you wanted to state a fact(though it's still a bit off to say that, but more factual).

At any rate, I think you're kind of hitting on why I feel that parties are a bad idea to begin with. While you may have been taking a nice little jab at the Republicans it just goes to show how people tend to be overly critical of the other party while being soft on their own party. Political parties are too easy to defend or attack as a whole. You can call the other party evil even if there are many you agree with without knowing it(say the 70+ Republicans who signed on to it).


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Tommycat; 12-22-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:17 AM   #35
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Zeitgeist
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Is a load of bull****, in particular part 1.
Blue pill.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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