Thread: Sith Marauder, Endurance over Strength? Can it be done?
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:45 AM   #1
ChAiNz.2da
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Arrow Sith Marauder, Endurance over Strength? Can it be done?

Started a Sith Marauder, DPS mainly but still low enough (17) to spec off-tank if needed. Currently Carnage tree(?) (Middle tree), pumping points in off-hand damage and Ward/Cloak/Area damage mitigation). Pumping high loads of Endurance/Strength (mostly endurance for off-tanking) since her offensive moves are pretty much Tank-Hater aggro steal

Using the item mods that grant END over STR (Guardian/Patron) rather than Might mods. SO far it's working great while still dealing loads of damage (of course Vette is brutal helpful when soloing.. hehe).

Shelkylya


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Old 01-31-2012, 02:59 AM   #2
DarthParametric
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Endurance is a waste for Marauders. They can't spec into any sort of tank (only Juggs have the appropriate tree), so you'd be better off replacing all your gear with proper Strength-dominant stuff. Otherwise you'll just be gimping yourself. I can make you a set of replacement mods for all your slotted gear.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:31 AM   #3
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Endurance is a waste for Marauders. They can't spec into any sort of tank (only Juggs have the appropriate tree), so you'd be better off replacing all your gear with proper Strength-dominant stuff. Otherwise you'll just be gimping yourself. I can make you a set of replacement mods for all your slotted gear.
That's what I thought at first too, but so far it's working out fantastic. I chose endurance over strength (only slightly over) because my attacks as-is always steals aggro from the tanks I've grouped with (maybe they were all just bad.. hehehe). Without the extra hp to deal with them, I would've easily ate it.

Should probably clarify that I'm only using minor end-over-str items. The Guardian/Patron mods tend to switch the values respectively only by a point or two.. Once I land an orange slot armor, I will switch my weapon mods over to high strength.. but I gotta say, so far Shelkylya is absolutely brutal.

I'll see how her build goes at least till the end of the 2nd planet to see If I start noticing a degradation towards the tougher enemies (usually save heroics for last). Should give me enough time to respec if I start feeling some hurt. Hoarding my commendations so I should be able to pimp out gear before leaving planet


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Last edited by ChAiNz.2da; 01-31-2012 at 12:17 PM. Reason: 2nd planet, not first. Korriban was first.. derp.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:01 AM   #4
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Yeah I wouldn't be judging too much based on what you are seeing on Dromund Kaas. Long term that strategy isn't going to stay effective.

As far as respecing goes, what are you planning on respecing to? All three Marauder trees are DPS, just slightly different flavours. The main choice is really a PVE vs PVP build.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:44 AM   #5
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Yeah I wouldn't be judging too much based on what you are seeing on Dromund Kaas. Long term that strategy isn't going to stay effective.
True enough. Glad I'm saving my commendations.. hehehe
I'll wind up spending them on misc mods for my gear. Already spent some gearing up Vette since I won't deviate her Cunning/Endurance. But I've luckily had some sweet luck with Shel as I pulled an orange saber from the Black Talon flashpoint, and another orange loot drop for one of the miscellaneous Kaas quest. Both of which are comparable (after mods) than the orange slot "special goods" seller. Same with my armor.. though I did fork over the credits for the gloves from the seller.

Quote:
As far as respecing goes, what are you planning on respecing to? All three Marauder trees are DPS, just slightly different flavours. The main choice is really a PVE vs PVP build.
Probably not so much as respeccing as re-gearing (back to Strength). I've stayed faithful so far to Carnage and it's been absolutely devastating even as far as Elites/Champions go.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100ZukM.1

Next tick will be the second rank in Defensive Forms as it builds my Fury quickly and adds my Forms bonuses as opposed to Erupting Fury (which I'll add the next 2 levels after that.. hehe). Once I hit Berserk, game's over for anything in front of me (or in force jump range). Juyo form is a beast.

But I'm always open for suggestions if anyone has tried this path and finds out it sucks NOT interested in PVP at all.


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Old 01-31-2012, 12:07 PM   #6
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Lynk's Marauder is nigh on 50 and has finished both the class quest and all the planet side-quests up to Corellia and Astor has a Marauder in the 30s. Both should be able to offer some advice, although I am unsure as to which trees each has spec'd into.
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:16 PM   #7
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Moved all of the posts above from a different thread...



With Silvana... it's more along the lines of "kill everything before it kills you"... Basically she's 100% offence, 0% defence...

Tree: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bcZhGbbddrorsZG.1

This build is obviously based on Ataru form and as you've probably noticed it's all about how quickly you can dish out the damage to the enemy and how many of them land criticals. Strength over endurance is key, even if you find a piece of armour or a mod that gives you +1 strength and -5 endurance, I take it.

The key secondary stats are critical rate, surge rate, accuracy and then power in that order. These are key because you're going to be doing a lot of moves one after the other and you need them to critical, accuracy also helps to deal with enemies that are higher level than you are.

The companion to use for this build, I've found, is Vette. You're a suped up Melee DPS, she's a suped up Ranged DPS... so yes, kill or be killed is the key. Select a mob, figure out which one of them is the strongest and get Vette to attack that unit. Then you force charge in and take out all of the weaker ones which takes a matter of seconds. Then you turn your attention to the big one and you do everything you can to stall it so that Vette can get as much DPS in as possible because she's probably going to die.

Of course if she does, no problem, you've already taken down the mob and all you have to do is retreat back a little so no patrols come by, dismiss Vette and then recall her and she'll come back with full health in an instant. Then you channel hatred back to full health, rinse and repeat on another mob.


I know how it sounds, it's brutal, it's dangerous, it's a huge risk because you have no one to heal you and it literally is kill or be killed. But I will tell you now that this method has proven super effective for me. I've taken down mobs that have been 3-4 levels above me throughout most of the game.

In fact, this build has been so successful that I started to get overconfident with it and by the latter part of the game I was way TOO underleveled for the missions I was taking on. Everything was red which meant that no matter how much you'd attack that enemy, they'd dodge or resist the attack... it was terrible because all of my missions were either red or grey because I had skipped a couple of bonus series early in the game.

I had to continue the game with DP just so I could progress in the game, otherwise it would've taken me way too much grinding to level up to where I should have been.


So yeah. This build is extremely effective, but it's so effective that you can end up biting off more than you can chew since you become overconfident when you start killing mobs which are levels above you.

Basically it's the Darth Maul build. 100% aggression... kill everything.

EDIT: With that build, just make sure you don't do what I did and get overconfident and was enjoying the class story so much that I wanted to see more as much as I could. Pace yourself and I'm sure people would be able to take it all the way to level 50 without a shred of help. Hell, I was able to finish a few heroic 2's with this build.

And this all comes from a guy who plays 100% defensive Trooper Vanguard on the Republic side.



With your build, I suggest you use Quinn as your companion when you get him since he's a healer. If my crazy build can work, perhaps yours can too.

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Old 01-31-2012, 12:56 PM   #8
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^^
Thanks Lynk.. some nice stuff to look over!
Yeah.. I'm really digging Shel's build right now.. and gimpy as she might become, I'm still tempted to see how far I can get with it. This was my prospective build, sticking to Juyo as opposed to switching to Ataru (though may need to switch entirely over to Annihilation tree for Juyo to maximize).

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100rIZGGMRd0MRrs.1

Main factor would be if bleeding effects stack. If they do.. might have to respec to Annihilation to take full advantage. Otherwise, my mungled tree takes advantage of the moves I use most and makes for smooth clicking succession (since melee combat is much more hectic than ranged imo).
The extra endurance helps me stand ground while they bleed, I maintain aggro and keep Vette safe and DPS'ing at a distance. The capper is having to balance between bleed and attaining fury quicker to unleash Berserk.

Again, could be a total botch build and gimped beyond words though
Having to take that one tier of Ataru kinda wastes some points.. but I needed to for top tier.

I want to test the build with a healer to see if she really can off-tank (not expecting to replace a tank, but my DPS steals aggro like no ones business).
May have to test with the "faux" healer ship droid once I get it before I can make a final decision as to respec or not.

I like experimental builds, usually to my guild's moans (in DDO).. but they all ate crow when my mix mage/cleric "gimp" build wound up topping their Min/Max builds. Of course they where totally right about my Ranger/Mage build.. definitely had to admit gimp on that one

*- the more I'm reading on the Annihilate tree.. the more I'm thinking of switching over. Looks like it might suit the build better. Hmmmm


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Old 01-31-2012, 09:33 PM   #9
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The problem with companion healers, especially early on, is they are not really proper healers. Generally speaking, they won't heal you fast enough that you can just stand around forever waiting for mobs to keel over from DOTs. IMO, that sort of strategy is really only useful for mid- to end-game group play in Flashpoints/Operations where you are taking on boss mobs. In that scenario, you are in for a long fight so DOTs start to come into their own, plus you have proper healers and tanks to (hopefully) free you up to focus on your job. In solo levelling PVE, you should be focused first and foremost on maximising base damage and enhancing criticals, much as Lynk has done. In that scenario, a healer companion should be fine, as long as you don't go crazy and take on content 5 levels above you. 90% of what you will be fighting is Weak and Normal trash mobs with some Strongs thrown in. You want to burn through them as fast as possible, not giving them time to stack up the damage on you. Especially as a melee DPS, lacking any real AOE abilities to deal with groups simultaneously (the major benefit of Trooper/BHs).
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:14 AM   #10
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I think the biggest problem healer companions have earlier on in the game is that they generate too much threat with their healing abilities. It was fine for me and my run through with my Vanguard and Elara since I could easily generate enough threat with ion cell and then in later levels, taunt anyone who came near her or looked at her funny...

In your case, chainz, I think you'll find that Quinn (when you get him) will probably end up coming under fire quite a few times and when that happens, he goes from healing you to healing himself... which can be troublesome for you if there's still enough attention on you.

I'm pretty sure Astor was having that problem since he's been using Quinn through his run-through... except that one big fight at the end of chapter 1 where I got him to switch to Vette

Of course, that said... I think the dot could help you generate more threat, but the real clincher is the fact that you don't have any taunts. I mean, the Marauder wasn't made to taunt at all, it was made to stay out of trouble which is why it has Force Camouflage which takes down your threat level for a little while.

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Old 02-01-2012, 12:32 AM   #11
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Even as a Jugg I had constant problems holding aggro, especially early on with no taunts. Even when you finally get them (1 single target, 1 AOE), the cooldowns are so long as to make them effectively a 1 shot use in most fights. I just gave up using Vette once I had a melee DPS companion as she was constantly pulling mobs away from me. The only real experience I had using Malavai (healer) was when Lynk's Marauder and I grouped to tackle the last two planets (which gave us tank, healer, 2 x DPS). While he drew some aggro occasionally, I think it was primarily due to Vette once again dragging mobs off me, and then some of them aggroing on to Malavai (who would usually be right next to Vette). I really don't think a ranged DPS companion is a good combo with a melee class, but that's just my personal preference.

As a BH Merc DPS, I hardly ever found that Mako (healer companion) drew too much aggro. Generally it was only the occasional boss fight where it became an issue. I was usually outputting more than enough damage to offset any threat she may have generated. Plus the use of AOEs as an opener ensured I would aggro the entire group against me straight off the bat.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:09 AM   #12
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That's crazy talk, Vette is perfect for the Marauder... but I can understand her not being very good with the Juggernaut.

From my time spent learning everything there is to know about tanking as a Vanguard, I've learned quite a lot about how to manage agro. That experience actually came in handy with my Silvana + Vette team up. Basically Vette and I shared the agro somewhat equally, though I purposefully got her to take a little more of the agro and at times die for me since it's over if I die... of course I used moves such as Force Choke to ensure that she was able to get some good DPS in as well. I'd also use moves such as Smash, Force Scream, Ravage, Crippling Slash, Deadly Throw, Obfuscate, Force Camouflage and Intimidating Roar... all of them to keep the enemy off balance in every single way possible to make sure that they weren't able to retaliate effectively enough against our combined onslaught. Disable Droid also helps quite a bit too

Like I keep saying, it ended up working amazingly well.



As for Quinn taking heat when we were playing, it was because he started healing Vette when she started taking heavy amounts of damage that got him to generate enough threat to be targeted... something which could happen equally as much if either one of us were taking large amounts of damage and he was healing us constantly.

It happens when with a full party group as well, it's up to the tank to manage it.

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Old 02-01-2012, 09:38 AM   #13
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Good stuff guys, enjoying the info

Only raised one level last night (still on Kaas, I'm slow.. hehe) so no real 'experimenting' but after reading your posts and doing some digging through the ToR forums, looks as if you stray too far off a tree.. you're going to fail miserably. Kinda sucks for way-left-field-builds, but oh well, it's still a relatively new MMO. Plenty of time for them to expand

Soooo. with that in mind, I'm thinking of switching over to the Annihilate tree tier. I already took the dive and switched over my mods to STR/END (landed some nice orange armor). Thanks kindly for the advice.

While the Ataru form looks sweet as hell, I want to try something a bit different. The Juyo form looks to benefit mostly from Annihilate, so I think I'm going to bleed my enemies to death

Potential build:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100rIbRroMfGzZGM.1


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Old 02-01-2012, 09:52 AM   #14
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I've heard plenty of folks say that they like the Annihilation tree better than the Carnage tree, though and felt the Carnage tree was broken... personally, I've never had any problems with the Carnage tree and Ataru form but take into account that a lot of these people were factoring in PvP.

You should do well with the Juyo form and it might be an idea to take some of my tactics into consideration when using it as well by stalling the mobs as much as possible so they can't land too many attacks in on you and your companion so that they can bleed out enough hp at the same time.

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Old 02-01-2012, 10:29 AM   #15
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You should do well with the Juyo form and it might be an idea to take some of my tactics into consideration when using it as well by stalling the mobs as much as possible so they can't land too many attacks in on you and your companion so that they can bleed out enough hp at the same time.
Definitely. One thing I noticed about Annihilate is that it really ramps Force Charge (lower cooldown and better activate range). Was thinking I may drop Cloak of Carnage and go for Stagger for the additional second of stun.

I use FC quite a bit, one of my favorite moves and it helps immobilize.. even better

With the combo of Force Charge's stun, Crippling Slash and Force Choke.. I think I may be able to slow down an enemy's charge towards Vette (or other) until I can finish them off or regain aggro.

One thing I do wonder though is if lightsabers do bleed damage (don't see how that works). Might need to start looking for some blades if that's the case.. hmmmm


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Old 02-01-2012, 10:51 AM   #16
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Weapons don't have any inherent damage effects. That is determined by the skill used.

As far as Force Charge goes, that should pretty much always be your opener. Any ability that lowers its cooldown and increases the amount of Rage it generates should be a priority. Minimum range reduction is also very worthwhile. I can't tell you the number of times my Jugg, laden down with movement inhibiting debuffs, has been forced to painfully amble over to a guy mere inches inside the minimum range of 10m, all the while being shot in the face.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:12 AM   #17
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Weapons don't have any inherent damage effects. That is determined by the skill used.
Whew.. good to know. I'd cry if I had to give up my sabers.. hehe

Quote:
As far as Force Charge goes, that should pretty much always be your opener. Any ability that lowers its cooldown and increases the amount of Rage it generates should be a priority.
Yup!

FC -> Battering Assault -> Rupture -> Ravage
or
FC -> Smash -> Battering Assault -> Ravage

After that, it's cleanup for whomever didn't just get disintegrated because I only need 1-2 more attacks before Berserk kicks in

Quote:
Minimum range reduction is also very worthwhile. I can't tell you the number of times my Jugg, laden down with movement inhibiting debuffs, has been forced to painfully amble over to a guy mere inches inside the minimum range of 10m, all the while being shot in the face.
my life story. Once I saw those perks in the ANH Tree, I knew it was meant to be. Stagger is in the Rage (3rd) tree, but it's a first tier.. looks like a nice companion skill to go with the other FC goodies in the ANH tree.


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Old 02-01-2012, 11:34 AM   #18
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Depending on how you want to go, it's possible to get to the top of one tree and still take several first tier abilities from the other two trees. My Jugg for instance is 35/2/4 (this, if you are interested in specifics). And if you want to sacrifice the top of tree talent, you can go even more extreme, becoming something of a hybrid like you described earlier. That's what I am planning with my Sorcerer (although I am extremely annoyed in that case that I want to be Lightning spec'd, but half the lightning abilities are in the Madness tree).

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Old 03-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #19
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This post makes me laugh looking back on it.
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