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Old 02-16-2012, 07:08 AM   #41
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I actually really like TSL, in fact I like it better than KOTOR I. With the TSLRCM the story is a lot clearer and makes much more sense. There just something about the darker theme that makes it more interesting in my opinion.

Last edited by Revanchism; 02-16-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:21 PM   #42
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it made me feel like like Kriea was just manipulative pain in the butt, who wanted everything done her way, if not, it's the highway
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:23 PM   #43
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but there is an upside to KOTOR II, you don't cap off at level 20, i got to like lvl 45
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
It's not about precautions. Her words, actions, and doctrine deliberately tell you to not give a **** about others.

Regarding the "nitpicking" comment: Allow me to retract that; I find rather that it betrays an astonishingly poor understanding of Kreia's character on your part.

How about because "my interpretation" relies on conclusions drawn from examples of what actually happens in the game, rather than blanket statements that I pull from nowhere?

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

Yeah? Well, only simpletons keep their holsters filled with revolvers instead of reason.

Your statement implied that Kreia's killing of the Jedi Masters was a reflexive, defensive action taken to protect a person she cared about - which is nonsense, because she only cares about the Exile to the degree to which she can be used as a tool. She doesn't care about what the Exile wants in life, what she feels, or what she believes.

Don't bother actually explaining to me what the problem is, just tell me to figure it out myself.

Irrelevant to the point, which is that you are implying that you condone the act of Kreia screwing with Atton's head on the basis of the things Atton used to do.

Also, "how could she know?" Her ****ing mind-reading powers might have a hand in that. Just a thought.

The problem is, again, that Kreia prolonged his suffering for no particular reason. If she was going to preserve his life, then she ought to have done something other than waste it.


How about Tobin (though the Exile can save him later)? The guy may have been on Valku's side, but in the end he was just a patriot who wanted to protect the independence of his planet, and we don't know of anything particularly evil he did other than fight on Onderon. She sent him to Nihilus to slowly die from Force drainage on his ship. Even supposing he deserved death, did he deserve a death like that?

If he doesn't count, how about the Jedi Masters? I wouldn't be surprised if you (like many others) consider Vrook to be a bigger monster than Malak, but what about Kavar and Zez? Did they deserve death as well?

If they don't count, there were definitely plenty of civilians at Telos who were killed because Kreia drew Nihilus to the system.

Even if none of those count, what you are implying is that because the people Kreia used were evil, it was okay. The problem with that is that she was doing it because she wanted revenge, not because she cared about the well-being of others.

And why does that justify it? Why is it admirable for Kreia to be willing to (by her own words) kill the galaxy for one woman whom she wants to use to carry out her plans?

I'd like a source for that. By all indications, the Mandalorian Wars were going bad for them simply because their sizable military was not well-commanded, nothing to do with the Jedi (who, by the way, were not in the best shape in the aftermath of the Great Sith War).

You may disregard that assertion of mine, however. I would be content if you were to explain how the Republic being weakened by the Jedi justifies Revan's act of declaring war on it.

So you're saying that there was no way to fix/change the form of the Republic's government that, say, would've resulted in a quadrillion or so fewer deaths than the method Revan ended up going with? Also, destroying and taking the assets of the Republic constitutes something completely different from mere change and reform. Even freaking Palpatine's rise to power was legal, as far as anyone knew.

The Republic's alleged ineffectiveness does not justify the deaths Revan caused (numerous civilians and Republic forces deliberately allowed to die in order to corrupt his Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars, the use of a superweapon to destroy all life on Malachor V, the deaths of numerous Republic civilians and military personnel in the Jedi Civil War, and the destruction of Republic planets by Malak which at the very least were tolerated by Revan).

If Revan's aims were half as noble as Kreia says, then he would have brought proof of the True Sith's existence to the Jedi Order and the Republic, and then helped them to strengthen it properly, rather than forming his own Sith Empire and trying to destroy the Republic with it. What is so damn admirable about what he planned to do? It was nothing except trading one Sith domination of the galaxy for another. We see how great it is to live under the Sith Empire in KotOR I.

The hell she does. If there is any person or thing in the entire series that we have any reason to suspect that Kreia lies about or misrepresents, it's Revan.

Revan doesn't prove **** in TSL, most importantly because he isn't in the bloody game. More to the point, it's pretty obvious that Kreia is infatuated with her greatest student, and she has every reason to lie about him - if she admits that what Revan did was wrong, then she also admits that she was a failure in teaching him, and she is unable to accept that.

Don't tell me that Kreia doesn't have a borderline-insane bias in favor of Revan - there is not a single solitary negative thing anywhere in TSL that she says about Revan. All she does is gush and gush and gush like so many fanboys and fangirls.

Play and pay attention to the ****ing game. Kreia's plan is to sustain the Force Wound at Malachor V that was formed when the planet got ****ed up, and it's stated elsewhere in the game that if that wound persists indefinitely, then everyone touched by the Force (i.e, everyone alive) will either be deafened to it or killed.
your deconstruction of Kreia's character in this debate is brilliant and spot on, she is meant to be unreliable more than anything and ultimately her motives aren't justfied nor is her commentary on Revan.

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Old 05-06-2013, 02:25 AM   #45
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KOTOR II was great even in it's incomplete form. I enjoyed it alot better than KOTOR I and it's cliche storyline. I used to love KOTOR I until I played Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR I is just a nwn rehash. Both games have many similarities such as Malak's design.

Tell me Malak doesn't look like Maugrim?


Darth Malak:

They're many more references to NWN in KOTOR. Such as the Creator race (NWN) and the Rakatan (KOTOR)

I've seen this not only with KOTOR and NWN but any game that Bioware develops, they always use the same cliches.

That is why I take an incomplete game by Obsidian, over a complete one by Bioware any day.

I am convinced that the defunct Black Isle studios who most now work for Obsidian, had more to do with Baldur's Gate 2 than just publish it.

Edit: Didn't realize this was a necro thread.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:12 AM   #46
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So this thread may be dead but its the main thread relating to what i wanted to say.
I played KOTOR 1 first and I hated it, I only ended up playing the second one because my brother baught it. to me the first one dragged on and on and on,
Endar spire was nice, but then there was the upper level of Taris.
I liked Carth, but Bastila was annoying as heck, Underworld was amazing and had life, but you had to go through the annoying Lower level to get there.
Zaalbar is Whiny but awesome Mission is a brat. You might see where i am going with this, in Kotor 1 for every good thing there is a bad, planets were ok, characters were nice, but it had a yin and yang of balanced good and bad stuuf that just made it aweful to me

Then I played Kotor 2, the first time i played it, peragus was just right, Except for the lack of people adding to the atmosphere, that was annoying. It was dark, creepy, and felt hopeless, setting up for the rest of the game. Harbinger set up the 'main' baddy, the guy who follows you and fights you and who you think will be the main baddy.

I hate telos, it sucked, the first time i played it i felt like it should have evolved and gained more quests and kind of been a hub like the citidel in mass effect. It was bland as someone said already.

I never go to Dantooine first, I go to Nar Shadaa, And I feel like for the time the game was released, it is spectaular, it has beggers and threats and bounty hunters, and crime lords and . . . too much for itself to have one direct meaning, it loses itself like you are supposed to get lost in it, which is great.

Dantooine had the wrong atmosphere to it, because the civil war thing was supposed to be in parralel to the sith jedi conflict like the one on onderon, but it had no hand behind the mercs except a disgruntled dude who talked more than he could walk. It felt like a collapsed society fighting over its shattered remains of its pasty glory (an echo if you will)

Which leads me to dxun and Onderon, Dxun as almost everyone says, is my favorite planet because it is the polar opposite of Onderon and yet they are basically twins, Dxun is a jungle that has hidden mandalorians who are rebuilding and trying to recapture their glory after a war that basically wiped out their species, they are the untsamed beasts of the two. While Onderon is a civilized world world that has hints of their tamed selves falling apart and the scent of civil war on the horizon, a war that threatens them to become like Dxun. A struggle of dominance for the throne as others in the shadows watch and wait, (kavar the jedi, and hinted at nehilis the sith)they wait for the war to begin so their millenia old struggle may come back to light, that of the beast versus the man, Mandolorians join the exile and who he chooses will win.

Korriban wasn't expansive, but i really liked it for its puzzle and sion revealing something that makes you think more about kreia.

I loved the battle for telos and thought thats where the game should have ended on board the ravager after defeating nehelis and having your team run on ahead to plant more charges, kreia, reveals herself and the final battle happens with her trying to use telos to create the same wound as malachor v, but no, Malachor V drags and ruins the game for me, not completely but it just makes me sad to see it make sion such a subordinent to Kreia, I mean if he ended up on the ravager trying to help Kreia and Nehelis to Finally bring an end to the jedi and to kill you, It would have been so much faster and better, having a posibly five tier bos battle ending with an epic duel between Darth trayus and the exile (Sion, Sion-Nehelis, Nehelis after absorbing Sion and gaining his power, trayus, trayus again.)

I have qualms with the end which still haven't been rectified by tslrcm,even if I do enjoy tslrcm alot (It adds so much! I love it) It doesn't solve the ungodly stall to the end of the game that is the pile of feces filled with wasps that is malachor V

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Old 03-31-2014, 07:47 PM   #47
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Initially I liked KOTOR more but after some time and going back and playing TSL I may like it more than KOTOR.
The story is just so much deeper and more interesting.
The atmosphere of hopelessness and despair really made you feel how bad the galaxy has been affected by the wars.
Also having he main character be a completely original person, unlike Revan allowed you to get more involved in the story.
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