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Old 09-08-2012, 11:09 PM   #1
bunjeeman
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Need advice.

Not with making a mod, but with forming a suggestion for a mod. I need some help with figuring out what parts of my idea are possible, and how to phrase them (not much point posting a suggestion if no one knows what the hell you are on about).
If you have experience in skinning, modeling, scripting, map/area designing, feat/power creation, and sound editing, please PM me about the relevant question.

Here they are:

Can new feats be created (not passive. Those are hardcoded)?

Can the Malak and Yoda frames (or whatever tehy are called) be modded to wear different armor and robes?

Is it possible to create the necessary skins/models for the above question to work?

Can new areas be created, instead of just re-skinning pre-existing maps/areas?

Can pre-existing voices from the game be spliced to form new lines? (see gamerpoop (skyrim/oblivion/mass effect 3) for an example of what I mean (a bit NSFW))

Is there a limit to the amount of changes/added material that can be made to either KotOR game?

In the case of KotOR I, would a great deal of added material/items/difficult or multi-stage fights/powers or feats be impractical or a general waste, as there are only 20 levels? (as in, you wouldn't be able to get the added powers/feats without it being given to you as 'you just learned a new power')

Is there any existing double/two handed animations for the Yoda frame?

Are full head helmets possible?

Are capes possible on all sorts of armor/robes, or just the Revan skin?

Is it possible to spawn a swarm of unbeatable enemies (i.e, like the droids in the dantooine ruins: they die, and get back up), for the purpose of forcing a retreat?

Can various species, faces, and darkside variants for each be moddled for each frame (i.e, Ewok, Lannik, Chadra-Fan, Utai, and Gand for the Yoda frame, Muun, Pau'an, and Abyssin, and famous faces for each)?

Can the above frames be available for selection in character creation?

Does switching chracters (like the leviathan or droid warehouse) have any problems or complications when its done in a mod?

Would anyone bother with adding made-up back stories for characters (sion, most likely), and would making book/comic based plots be to hard?

Can the misty look in Davik's estate be done on other maps?

There. Long story short, I am thinking up quite a lot of stuff for this, and it is possible that it would require a group of people to do it, and even then, it might be too much. But it does have potential to be very much awesome.
PM's are welcome for relevant questions, but otherwise, please stick to commenting in the thread.


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Old 09-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjeeman View Post
Can new feats be created (not passive. Those are hardcoded)?
No.
Quote:
Can the Malak and Yoda frames (or whatever tehy are called) be modded to wear different armor and robes?
No.
Quote:
Is it possible to create the necessary skins/models for the above question to work?
Depends. At best it's extremely difficult.
Quote:
Can new areas be created, instead of just re-skinning pre-existing maps/areas?
Yes, but it's not easy. This used to be a solid no.
Quote:
Can pre-existing voices from the game be spliced to form new lines?
Yes.
Quote:
Is there a limit to the amount of changes/added material that can be made to either KotOR game?
Depends.
Quote:
In the case of KotOR I, would a great deal of added material/items/difficult or multi-stage fights/powers or feats be impractical or a general waste, as there are only 20 levels? (as in, you wouldn't be able to get the added powers/feats without it being given to you as 'you just learned a new power')
Shouldn't matter. You can change the power gain rate.
Quote:
Are full head helmets possible?
Yes. I think. Might depend on the head.
Quote:
Are capes possible on all sorts of armor/robes, or just the Revan skin?
It's possible but highly impractical to add them.
Quote:
Is it possible to spawn a swarm of unbeatable enemies (i.e, like the droids in the dantooine ruins: they die, and get back up), for the purpose of forcing a retreat?
Yes.
Quote:
Can various species, faces, and darkside variants for each be moddled for each frame (i.e, Ewok, Lannik, Chadra-Fan, Utai, and Gand for the Yoda frame, Muun, Pau'an, and Abyssin, and famous faces for each)?
No. But Chadra-Fan are already in both games, just lacking certain animations; Gand are in K2.
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Does switching chracters (like the leviathan or droid warehouse) have any problems or complications when its done in a mod?
Yes, but it depends on what you're doing.


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Old 09-08-2012, 11:54 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
No.

No.

Depends. At best it's extremely difficult.

Yes, but it's not easy. This used to be a solid no.

Yes.

Depends.

Shouldn't matter. You can change the power gain rate.

Yes. I think. Might depend on the head.

It's possible but highly impractical to add them.

Yes.

No. But Chadra-Fan are already in both games, just lacking certain animations; Gand are in K2.

Yes, but it depends on what you're doing.
Wrong. All of his ideas are possible. The feats one is limited but less so then most everyone assumes. Everything else, while possible, is highly unfeasible.




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Old 09-09-2012, 12:18 AM   #4
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Uh... no. Creating or editing non-passive feats is not possible. Malak and Vandar use full body models and thus can't utilize the other body models. Creating a new character model from scratch is not possible. And I said yes to all the other ones.


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Old 09-09-2012, 12:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
Uh... no. Creating or editing non-passive feats is not possible. Malak and Vandar use full body models and thus can't utilize the other body models. Creating a new character model from scratch is not possible. And I said yes to all the other ones.
Creating non-passive feats is actually possible, to an extent. Editing feats is not. Full body models can be edited though and can be set up to read other model variants of their own when items are equipped. And character models can be created from scratch, although I'm not sure you can get them animated. You can do some heavy remodeling of existing characters to make new species as adding geometry is possible.




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Old 09-09-2012, 12:35 AM   #6
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Creating non-passive feats is actually possible, to an extent.
No, it isn't.
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Full body models can be edited though and can be set up to read other model variants of their own when items are equipped.
That's uh... that's what I said.
Quote:
And character models can be created from scratch, although I'm not sure you can get them animated.
So that's a no, then.
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You can do some heavy remodeling of existing characters to make new species as adding geometry is possible.
Not to the extent that was being asked.


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Old 09-09-2012, 12:43 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
No, it isn't.
It is though. I've done it. Like I said, it's possible, but only to an extent.

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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
That's uh... that's what I said.
More or less.

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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
So that's a no, then.
It's still possible. I only saw someone try once and that was well before it was known how to Switch animations, so it may yet be possible.

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Not to the extent that was being asked.
all it takes is creative thinking. It could work, but it's impractical.




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Old 09-09-2012, 12:51 AM   #8
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It is though. I've done it. Like I said, it's possible, but only to an extent.
Oh really?
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It's still possible. I only saw someone try once and that was well before it was known how to Switch animations, so it may yet be possible.
There are issues other than animations. To my knowledge no one has succeeded due to limitations in NWMax. It isn't just a matter of creative thinking.


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Old 09-09-2012, 12:57 AM   #9
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Oh really?
Yes. I just never made anything bug free with it, and the way its done, iirc, made it incompatible with many mods.

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There are issues other than animations. To my knowledge no one has succeeded due to limitations in NWMax. It isn't just a matter of creative thinking.
I saw someone get a body in the game once. It could move, but it had no head or animations. This issues may be solve-able now.




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Old 09-09-2012, 01:00 AM   #10
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Yes. I just never made anything bug free with it, and the way its done, iirc, made it incompatible with many mods.
I'm standing by my previous statement until I see any proof. Or hear what your definition of "non-passive" is.
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I saw someone get a body in the game once. It could move, but it had no head or animations. This issues may be solve-able now.
I doubt it. The lack of a head is a completely different problem. And swapping out animations is not the same thing as adding animations to a new model.


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:06 AM   #11
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I'm standing by my previous statement until I see any proof. Or hear what your definition of "non-passive" is.
I can't remember exactly what's possible but I know you could make a feat call an animation when pressed, and I know I made a poison immunity feat work. I am not sure if you can make feats like flurry though that are useable in combat. If I can find the notes I have on the subject I may end up making some stuff and release something.

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I doubt it. The lack of a head is a completely different problem. And swapping out animations is not the same thing as adding animations to a new model.
It may be. I don't know really. I am no expert on the subject. I never have tried it myself.




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Old 09-09-2012, 01:12 AM   #12
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I've been led to believe that new feats are possible. The one New Feats mod for KotOR I seems to work.


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:15 AM   #13
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I can't remember exactly what's possible but I know you could make a feat call an animation when pressed
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I am not sure if you can make feats like flurry though that are useable in combat.
But the only place non-passive feats show up is in combat.
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and I know I made a poison immunity feat work.
Now that would be passive. And that one's already in the game, isn't it?
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It may be. I don't know really. I am no expert on the subject. I never have tried it myself.
That's a no, then.
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I've been led to believe that new feats are possible. The one New Feats mod for KotOR I seems to work.
Those are passive feats.


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Old 09-09-2012, 01:20 AM   #14
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But the only place non-passive feats show up is in combat.
Like I said, I don't know if they can be used there. My work in this field are limited. And it's been awhile.

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Now that would be passive. And that one's already in the game, isn't it?
Its not in k1.




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Old 09-09-2012, 04:28 AM   #15
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Creating a new character model from scratch is not possible.
It's possible to make full (body+head, like Sion, Nihilus, etc) character models (proof.) or just new body models.
Haeds are much more complicated, but I've never really tried to make a new one.


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Old 09-09-2012, 04:53 AM   #16
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I guess I'm not being specific enough in my terminology. It is not possible to make new head + body characters from scratch, as was requested - at least I'm not aware of anyone who's done it. I also don't believe it's possible to make a new face from scratch, even on a full body model - but I'm not sure about that one... as I said it would be extremely difficult at best. Both of these issues are due to limitations in NWMax as far as I can tell. Frankly the whole thing is a mess... I'm impressed by what people have managed to do as it is.


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Old 09-09-2012, 05:21 AM   #17
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It is not possible to make new head + body characters from scratch, as was requested - at least I'm not aware of anyone who's done it.
My mandalorian mod is doing exactly this - completely new full models, made from scratch (well, model geometry was ported from JA mod, but technically it's the same thing as scratch-modelled one).
The only limitation is that you still need to use one of the existing models, but only to get skeleton to which you will rig your model.
The impossible thing here is a completely new animations (that's why you need to rig model to already existing skeleton). But even if it's possible it's just not worth the time you'll spend on this.
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I also don't believe it's possible to make a new face from scratch, even on a full body model - but I'm not sure about that one... as I said it would be extremely difficult at best.
For full models it's possible; difficulty is to properly weight it, and NWMax limitations have nothing to do with, it's just a matter of skill.
Separate heads have same problem plus MDLOps limitations (you'll need to hexedit the compiled model to make it work right; also there are problems with danglymeshes, but iirc VarsityPuppet found a way to make them work).


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Old 09-09-2012, 05:36 AM   #18
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Uh... no. As you said, they are full body models, not head and body. And I think you are overlooking some issues with lips and hooks. In any case, if it isn't completely impossible, it's highly improbable.


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Old 09-09-2012, 11:52 AM   #19
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While I'm waiting for my Windows Support Drivers to download on my Mac, I figured I'd address these issues here for once and for all, so we can have a clear answer.

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Originally Posted by bunjeeman View Post

Can new feats be created (not passive. Those are hardcoded)?
Not feats like "Critical strike" or "Power Attack", or any feats that allow you to use different scores in combat (Melee Finesse, for instance, wouldn't work).

You can, however, create feats that work exactly like Force Powers (Wookiee Rage) and any feats that give the player one time bonuses (Gear Head).

And this is all done through editing the main K_ai_master script. Just add a few conditionals to check if the character has the feat, and then add the bonus. Might have to include some globals too, because otherwise you're going to have a perpetually expanding bonus.

To sum it up, possible, but impractical.

Quote:
Can the Malak and Yoda frames (or whatever tehy are called) be modded to wear different armor and robes?
Yes, you would need to separate their heads from their bodies. I've done it, Bob Ta'ar was working on a mod where he was taking alien heads and putting them on the main armor bodies to make playable alien PCs.

In the case of Malak and Yoda though, their heads would look pretty weird on those particular bodies, so you would have to either create the separate body and fix the bones/weights, or... well, you would still have the bodies, just they would be stuck with the same animations.

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Is it possible to create the necessary skins/models for the above question to work?
Theoretically, yes. The trouble comes from weighting the skin, which is hellishly terrible.

Quote:
Can new areas be created, instead of just re-skinning pre-existing maps/areas?
Yes, but you lose some certain details like the ability to use area lights. You can add lightmaps to the area, but there is no lighting that affects the characters, which makes it look weird at best.

Quote:
Can pre-existing voices from the game be spliced to form new lines? (see gamerpoop (skyrim/oblivion/mass effect 3) for an example of what I mean (a bit NSFW))
Yeah, just about as well as you could splice any audio file.

Quote:
Is there a limit to the amount of changes/added material that can be made to either KotOR game?
As much as your computer can hold, I guess.

Quote:
In the case of KotOR I, would a great deal of added material/items/difficult or multi-stage fights/powers or feats be impractical or a general waste, as there are only 20 levels? (as in, you wouldn't be able to get the added powers/feats without it being given to you as 'you just learned a new power')
Maybe... with only 20 levels to work with. You can change which feats/powers/skills are given to you at which levels, but there is always that issue of saturation..

Quote:
Is there any existing double/two handed animations for the Yoda frame?
Khrizby might have made a mod... I know there's the melee HK and the Darth Nihilus with the animations....


Quote:
Are full head helmets possible?
Either make a helmet model big enough to cover the entire head (looks ridiculous sometimes), or you could create a separate helmet head, and create an item that has a disguise property that refers to an appearance.2da line with that new head.

Quote:
Are capes possible on all sorts of armor/robes, or just the Revan skin?
I've been playing around with it. Theoretically, it is possible, but there's still that tedious task of actually modeling something with a cape.

Quote:
Is it possible to spawn a swarm of unbeatable enemies (i.e, like the droids in the dantooine ruins: they die, and get back up), for the purpose of forcing a retreat?
Yep, sounds possible.

Quote:
Can various species, faces, and darkside variants for each be moddled for each frame (i.e, Ewok, Lannik, Chadra-Fan, Utai, and Gand for the Yoda frame, Muun, Pau'an, and Abyssin, and famous faces for each)?
You want to animate all of those? Have fun. You would probably have better luck rigging them to work with the animation dummies that the main character uses.

Quote:
Can the above frames be available for selection in character creation?
Yes

Quote:
Does switching chracters (like the leviathan or droid warehouse) have any problems or complications when its done in a mod?
Switching back and forth between multiple characters within the same module (without reloading) seems to have some funky effects.

Quote:
Would anyone bother with adding made-up back stories for characters (sion, most likely), and would making book/comic based plots be to hard?
No one usually, because where would we get even halfway decent voice over to compliment that?

Quote:
Can the misty look in Davik's estate be done on other maps?
Yes, it's called Area Fog. Every module has it, it's just more apparent in some than others.



Other than that, I think JCarter and I should have a chat about modeling. Bring him up to speed on what is theoretically possible.

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Old 09-09-2012, 12:26 PM   #20
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Switching back and forth between multiple characters within the same module (without reloading) seems to have some funky effects.
What funky effects? I haven't noticed any, at least in K2. Well, apart from the game crashing if the character is in your party. Or crashing for any other reason.
Quote:
Other than that, I think JCarter and I should have a chat about modeling. Bring him up to speed on what is theoretically possible.
For the last time, I said no to one query regarding modeling, which was along the lines of "is it possible to create new characters from scratch?" And it isn't. All the other stuff I said is possible, just difficult and time consuming. Yeesh.

And no, no thanks. Hate 3ds Max. Kill it with fire!

I'm getting back to animating a Sith Interdictor in 3ds Max...


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Old 09-09-2012, 02:05 PM   #21
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What funky effects? I haven't noticed any, at least in K2. Well, apart from the game crashing if the character is in your party. Or crashing for any other reason.
Crashing, and from when I've used it, there have been some weird things that happen with animation. I recall one time where Atton would simply NOT stay in combat animation mode. Would flourish his weapon and then just stand there, all stupid-like.

Quote:
For the last time, I said no to one query regarding modeling, which was along the lines of "is it possible to create new characters from scratch?" And it isn't. All the other stuff I said is possible, just difficult and time consuming. Yeesh.
Yeah, but even still, that's theoretically possible. It now falls under the "extremely difficult and not really worth it" category.

Cool, have fun with animating.

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Old 09-09-2012, 02:50 PM   #22
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Yeah... fun...
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Crashing, and from when I've used it, there have been some weird things that happen with animation. I recall one time where Atton would simply NOT stay in combat animation mode. Would flourish his weapon and then just stand there, all stupid-like.
I managed to resolve all crashing errors, at least all I encountered. I just switched to Atton and didn't notice any animation issues either. What you're describing sounds like what happens when you move during combat, though... happens to Atton just as it happens to the PC.


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Old 09-09-2012, 03:12 PM   #23
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i do think we need more team work
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:25 PM   #24
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No one usually, because where would we get even halfway decent voice over to compliment that?
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:36 AM   #25
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Hmmm...I seem to have caused a debate by accident...
...
oops...

Oh, well, on with it.
I want to make sure I was understood about the Yoda and Malak frames; I don't mean to take the heads and put them on the normal frams, but to make entirely new robes and armor for each frame. Example, if you selected one of the tall body characters in character creation, and equip the environmental bastion armor/sith battle suit, you will wear a larger version of that armor. Same for the Yoda frame, jsut very short.

As for animating the faces; yeah, sticking with the stuff that's already there would be a good place to start. It *might* end up looking a bit weird, more with the yoda frame than the malak, but oh well, so long as the animations work at all.

About the passive feats; does that mean that non-jedi classes can be given de facto powers? (e.g. like in my other suggestion (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=210289), I considered making some extra classes available, and someone stated that making new jedi classes was impossible. However, I did suggest a few powers that weren't related to the force at all. Could those be made as feats?)

I'll keep voice acting in mind, but for now I think I'll do a fanfic first, just to get the story together first and get some other stuff for the mod ready (like artwork, designs, and all the like. I've a few robes/helmets in mind, as well as a few sabers).

I want to thank everyone who has commented and replied here. It's been very helpful.
Also, I would like to suggest that the answers to some of these questions be put in a new, non editable thread, for the purpose of not having others ask these same questions over and over.


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Old 09-10-2012, 04:16 AM   #26
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I want to make sure I was understood about the Yoda and Malak frames; I don't mean to take the heads and put them on the normal frams, but to make entirely new robes and armor for each frame. Example, if you selected one of the tall body characters in character creation, and equip the environmental bastion armor/sith battle suit, you will wear a larger version of that armor. Same for the Yoda frame, jsut very short.
I understand what you were asking, but what you're saying you don't want is what you would technically have to do. As I said, you can't create a new body from scratch; you have to weight the skin to an existing bone structure. That is possible but it's difficult work... and I don't know how many additional limitations there are regarding the tiny bodies.
Quote:
About the passive feats; does that mean that non-jedi classes can be given de facto powers? (e.g. like in my other suggestion (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=210289), I considered making some extra classes available, and someone stated that making new jedi classes was impossible. However, I did suggest a few powers that weren't related to the force at all. Could those be made as feats?)
This is how Hanharr's rage and Mandalore's implant switching are done. I think you can do that, but it would still be a passive feat; you would need to create a spell alongside the feat, which would function just like any other spell - meaning it will show up in the friendly power slot and it will fire one script per activation. Because it doesn't require Force points, it doesn't turn off when used, so you would have to place safety measures in the script to prevent anyone from abusing it.


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Old 09-10-2012, 12:27 PM   #27
DeathScepter
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cool.
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:55 AM   #28
bunjeeman
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With the matter of passive feats, would that make saber forms possible (have them as boosts that last a few minutes and dont stack with each other (also, could it be done as a three tier thing (e.g. "Lightsaber form: Shii-cho." "Form Specilisation: Shii-cho" "Form Mastery: Shii-cho")))?


It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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