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Old 09-11-2012, 09:13 PM   #1
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9/11

Why did no one already make this?

This goes to all of those who lost loved ones during that fateful day.

In other related events:
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:05 PM   #2
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Because no one has the emotional energy to mourn for so many people. We have to detach; to engage is debilitation.

So we focus on things closer to home, on things within our cultures and countries.

9/11 was no where near my home, but it happened to a nation within the sphere of my culture - the Western world - which makes the event close enough to consider.

Condolences to all the families and friends who lost their loved ones in the World Trade Centres on 9/11. I can't know your pain, but I acknowledge it just the same.



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Old 09-12-2012, 02:09 AM   #3
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9/11 happened on a Tuesday and it just so happens that today is Tuesday. The last time 9/11 happened on a Tuesday since the actual event was 2007.


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Old 09-12-2012, 05:24 AM   #4
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...oh yeah... actually forgot until I saw this thread just now. Now that I think about it, I haven't really heard anyone mention it today at all.

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Old 09-12-2012, 10:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
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Why did no one already make this?
Because people mourn in different ways for different reasons, personally I don’t need to make a big deal about it. A public proclamation is not needed to show my love for my country or my empathy for those that loss love ones that day. I remember, I remember every time I get on a plane, I remember every time I go into a government building, I remember every time I go to a national/state park/monument, I remember every time I see or hear the news of another Soldier killed or wounded in Afghanistan… Personally I don’t need a reminder on anniversary to see how America and the world were changed because of the attack on 9/11/2001; I see reminders of it every day when I see how we allowed our values and freedoms to be circumvented by a bunch of murders all in the name of security.


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Old 09-12-2012, 05:34 PM   #6
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Because no one has the emotional energy to mourn for so many people. We have to detach; to engage is debilitation.
Very true. It would be very difficult to mourn for the billions of lives cost during the Revolutionary War, The Civil War, "The Great War", WWII, the lives from the Holocaust, and the lives lost from Korea, Vietnam, and 9-11.

However, despite MANY people losing MANY loved ones, the incident of 9-11 ultimately brought us all together.

The terrorists' intentions on 9-11 were obviously to demoralize our nation by taking the lives of hundreds, including the poor firefighters' lives when they were coming up the stairs to rescue the trapped people while the building collapsed.

However, the exact opposite of what the terrorists' intended happened.

They expected us to become demoralized, broken, and defeated, but at the end, all they did was unite us even more as a country.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:58 PM   #7
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Disagree, their intentions were

1. To show we were vulnerable.
2. To make us violate our own principles in the name of security
3. To get our troops over there so that they were easier to kill.

Yes, the attacked did bring America and most of the world together for a short period of time. Today we are more divided than ever.


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Old 09-12-2012, 09:10 PM   #8
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Disagree, their intentions were

1. To show we were vulnerable.
2. To make us violate our own principles in the name of security
3. To get our troops over there so that they were easier to kill.

Yes, the attacked did bring America and most of the world together for a short period of time. Today we are more divided than ever.
My mistake, I should have worded my post better.

What I meant was....by demoralizing us, it would have shown that they could literally assault any major landmark in the world (showing we're vulnerable) even though now it is almost impossible.

And what do you mean we are more divided than ever? Racism? Prejudice towards other religions and/or atheists? Age vs. youth?
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:49 PM   #9
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And what do you mean we are more divided than ever? Racism? Prejudice towards other religions and/or atheists? Age vs. youth?
Amongst other things, yes.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:49 PM   #10
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Prejudice towards homosexuality, transgenders, etc.



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Old 09-12-2012, 10:13 PM   #11
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Oh, ok. I thought one of you were going to say prejudices against Muslims. (at airports, and being the victims of terrorist insults)
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:30 PM   #12
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Come on guys we don't need a political debate. I'm sure this thread was started so that we could acknowledge the thousands who were lost and the thousands who suffer still. I pray for those who were lost, those who were crippled, and those who suffer emotionally. I praise those brave men and women who help anyway they could, whether they ran into the rubble or simply comforted the families of those lost. When this tragedy happened I was in 1st grade, I had no idea why we were released early from school or why my mother was crying. When I now watch the videos, when I see the pictures I understand why mother cried.


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Old 09-13-2012, 10:43 AM   #13
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And what do you mean we are more divided than ever?
More like all of the above...You put 5 Americans an any room and you get 25 different opinions on any subject.

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Come on guys we don't need a political debate.
Yeah, politics had nothing to do with a bunch of idiots hijacking planes and murdering people. Much like the drug war, we will never win the war on terrorism because we refuse to examine the underlining cause. We just know we were attacked and we have to attack someone, even if it is the wrong people and all we are doing in creating the next generation of terrorist. We good, they evil...that is all we need to know.


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Old 09-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #14
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Yeah, politics had nothing to do with ...
[Not taking you out of context(as you have accused me of doing in the past), just shortening it to explain what I'm responding to.]

Perhaps because this isn't Kavar's people don't want to get into the political aspect of it.

And honestly, I could give a rip about the sensitivities of the people who think it's okay to kill someone over the portrayal of their prophet and god. Oooo they offended me. Now I have to suffocate the ambassador of their country. Until they have their reformation and their clerics formally denounce killing people because some knuckle dragger decided to post a hateful video on the internet, they can suck it.

(sorry for the rant... it's rather personal for me)


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Old 09-13-2012, 01:23 PM   #15
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[Not taking you out of context(as you have accused me of doing in the past), just shortening it to explain what I'm responding to.]

Perhaps because this isn't Kavar's people don't want to get into the political aspect of it.

And honestly, I could give a rip about the sensitivities of the people who think it's okay to kill someone over the portrayal of their prophet and god. Oooo they offended me. Now I have to suffocate the ambassador of their country. Until they have their reformation and their clerics formally denounce killing people because some knuckle dragger decided to post a hateful video on the internet, they can suck it.

(sorry for the rant... it's rather personal for me)
It is slightly personal for me as well. I am a Muslim, although most cannot tell right away because I am Caucasian.

Every time the religion convo. pops up, and I state what I believe in, they ask me if I'm a terrorist.

I mean, really? And it's ten times worse for me, because I live in the south (Georgia). Most people here are just dumb*ss, ignorant, and prejudiced rednecks.

Even though they cannot tease/insult me physically because I am 6'5", I still occasionally recieve insults. I am above most people on a maturity level, so I won't resort to threatening to beating people up.

Forgive if I sound like a b*tch. I feel a ton better now that I expressed myself.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:29 PM   #16
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Yeah, I don't give a rip about those either, however I do not equate everyone that can be categorized to one particular group, responsible for the actions of small extremist minority within that group. I know that is precisely what the terrorist are doing, but I do not consider myself an extremist, nor do I consider my country to be extremist beyond a few rating hunting entertainers on the radio and television and I don’t give a rip what they have to say about it either.


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Old 09-13-2012, 01:31 PM   #17
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It is slightly personal for me as well. I am a Muslim, although most cannot tell right away because I am Caucasian.

Every time the religion convo. pops up, and I state what I believe in, they ask me if I'm a terrorist.

I mean, really? And it's ten times worse for me, because I live in the south (Georgia). Most people here are just dumb*ss, ignorant, and prejudiced rednecks.

Even though they cannot tease/insult me physically because I am 6'5", I still occasionally recieve insults. I am above most people on a maturity level, so I won't resort to threatening to beating people up.

Forgive if I sound like a b*tch. I feel a ton better now that I expressed myself.
To be fair, I was speaking more of the people living in that region. Nearly every Muslim I know of in the west has a much more level head. Sure they may not like someone insulting the prophet or Allah, but they aren't about to go drag them through the streets because of it.


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Old 09-13-2012, 01:41 PM   #18
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To be fair, I was speaking more of the people living in that region. Nearly every Muslim I know of in the west has a much more level head. Sure they may not like someone insulting the prophet or Allah, but they aren't about to go drag them through the streets because of it.
Sorry. I just needed to vent. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:34 PM   #19
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@mimartin: Those terrorists are the minority. Those terrorists are the same minority who would kill someone over a cartoon. The next generation terrorist would still be in that same minority that you would have us "understand." You put more weight into the underlying cause. I was explaining(probably badly) that I don't care about their excuse for attacking us. They will make their own excuse. This whole excuse of infidels walking in Mecca is just BS. They are simply murdering f***tards who deserve no sympathy or attempt to understand their reasoning. If we were to yank all our troops out and allow Israel to be driven into the sea, they would find a new excuse to hate us. There are certain clerics in that region that would feel right at home in The South if you simply replaced the religion with "Baptist." Those clerics push their brand of hate. They give their people excuses to murder people not like themselves. Heck maybe they could run as a Republican and talk about how much they hate gay marriage.

@thejman217: No worries, I was not offended. I felt I needed to clarify because I realized that it may have seemed as though my attack was on all the followers of Islam, rather than the select few who become terrorists and would murder people over their offense.


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Old 09-13-2012, 03:03 PM   #20
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So people are born terrorist? That is all we need to know. Sorry I just would like to know why people would consider strapping a bomb to themselves a good option. However, I have no doubt that we will continue to treat the symptoms instead of trying to see if there is a cure to the disease. It will end up being just as successful as our war on drugs.


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Old 09-13-2012, 03:06 PM   #21
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Perhaps because this isn't Kavar's people don't want to get into the political aspect of it
Exactly.

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...however I do not equate everyone that can be categorized to one particular group, responsible for the actions of small extremist minority within that group.
I agree with this also.


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Old 09-13-2012, 03:34 PM   #22
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So people are born terrorist? That is all we need to know. Sorry I just would like to know why people would consider strapping a bomb to themselves a good option. However, I have no doubt that we will continue to treat the symptoms instead of trying to see if there is a cure to the disease. It will end up being just as successful as our war on drugs.
I don't believe I said that people are born terrorists. Some are pre-disposed to listening to the rantings of lunatics. Do you try to understand the KKK? Do you wonder how we could make them happy? They make their own reason for hate, whether real or imagined. Just as some people in the US are more likely to listen to and agree with Rush or Beck others are likely to listen to the rantings of raving lunatics over there.

Note: I'm saying they are more like us than either side would like to admit, it's just that Rush and Beck aren't actually getting people to strap bombs to themselves.


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Old 09-13-2012, 04:45 PM   #23
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I never said anything about making anyone happy. Sorry you seem to be adding preconceived notions into what this liberal, fascist, commie, pinko is saying, when I am actual closer to Ronald Reagan in my ideology in this department.

Yes I try to understand people that have such hatred, even those in the KKK, but again I could careless on how to make them happy. I would like to stop people from getting to that point, from what I have seen in life and from what I have learned in school we are not born with a hate gene. It is a learned emotion.

Note: Rush and Beck are blowholes entertainers much like Maher (even though Maher is more intelligent and funnier), I see no real danger with any of them except for the idiots that have blind faith in them and listen to them like they are preaching the gospel. I far more sacred of idiots that put such blind loyalty in those outside of the media spotlight.



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Old 09-13-2012, 05:56 PM   #24
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So people are born terrorist? That is all we need to know.
How does that make any sense?

EDIT
I also get really irked when people say "That is all we need to know".
Really? I'm not saying @mimartin is closed minded, but you are so closed minded and refuse to accept any other truth so you plainly say "That is all we need to know"?
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:05 PM   #25
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He was being sarcastic @ thejman217

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Old 09-13-2012, 06:43 PM   #26
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He was being sarcastic @ thejman217
No use spelling it out. I'm pretty sure if he had read any of my post beyond those two lines he could have easily figure out that I was sarcastic.

@thejman217 what does it show when you only read two lines and make a judgement? Isn't that the samething you're accusing me of?


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Old 09-13-2012, 07:23 PM   #27
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"I'm not saying you're close minded. But you're close minded."
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:40 PM   #28
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"I'm not saying you're close minded. But you're close minded."
Man, my analogy of things is really terrible.

Hahaha. I laughed pretty hard when you restated my poor choice word order. XD

I meant that he's not close minded.

However, the second part of my statement when I used second person, it was not directed at mimartin.

@minartin: Crap, I sound like a hypocrite don't I? I took the time to read your whole post, but (shame on me) even though I am a senior in high school taking all honors and AP classes, I still had trouble detecting what you where trying to say.

For me, it is difficult to detect sarcasm on the Internet unless one puts an emoticon or applies the use of emphasis.

EDIT
Sorry if I p*ssed anyone off. I didn't mean to sound like I am contradicting myself and being a hypocrite.

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Old 09-13-2012, 11:30 PM   #29
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More like all of the above...You put 5 Americans an any room and you get 25 different opinions on any subject.
Why is this a bad thing? Surely the point of importance would be whether they were wiling or not to cause harm to each other based on those opinions?


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Much like the drug war, we will never win the war on terrorism because we refuse to examine the underlining cause.
As far as I can tell, the reason there is a war on drugs, is because people are willing to fight for drugs when they're opposed; which in turn comes from the appeal of drugs, which is that they alter natural brain chemistry to produce naturally desirable effects. Basically, human neuroanatomy, combined with the fact that there are such things as hard drugs.

What do you think is the reason for the war on terrorism?

It appears to me to be an issue of morality. The extremists were acting on according to a morality derived from a religion whose holy texts define the destruction of people not part of that religion, as righteous.

The retaliation from the victims of the violence (eg. the countries of the West), comes from a sense of victimization, and from a drive for justice derived from a morality which defines the destruction of people in the name of religion, to be reprehensible. (a morality derived from multiple factors, but is mostly a reflection of the people of those countries.)

Hence the 'war'.

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It is slightly personal for me as well. I am a Muslim, although most cannot tell right away because I am Caucasian.
You seem like a reasonable, upstanding fellow, so let me ask you this:

I have Muslim friends. Good friends, too. They are polite, friendly, and good fun to be around. They know I'm a Christian; I know they're Muslims. We go to each others places for meals, and when they come to mine, my family makes sure that we only serve Halal meat. We're considerate of each other in those regards.

Now, the Koran has in it, many verses that:
1. Call for the destruction of nonbelievers
2. Place believers who actively fight, above those that 'sit at home'
3. Forbid believers to take Jews and Christians as friends

Show spoiler

This is a genuine question, and I mean no sarcasm or antagonism by it in any way:

Are these verses not applicable to Muslims today? Are they out of context? Have they been nullified by some later revelation?
How can my friends justify their actions with these and other verses in the Koran?
Or are they cherry-picking or simply ignoring those parts (as is a common practice among Christians)? Or knowingly defying the verses?



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Old 09-14-2012, 03:42 AM   #30
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IIT we remember the victims of 9/11 and the heroic efforts of the people who tried to save them by debating political views...

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Old 09-14-2012, 07:16 AM   #31
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@JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan: Those verses are certaintly applicable to the terrorists today obviously, but for the majority of the Islamic population worldwide, I don't think it applies to them a significant amount.

Sure, the Koran states that one must not befriend a Muslim. However, I myself am not a strict Muslim, and neither are my parents. I pray twice a day, once in the morning and once before i go to bed, but not five times a day. Almost all of my friends are Christians, atheists, or Hindus.

I don't think today's Muslims are straight up defying the verses of the Koran, because it would be highly impractical to meet (and reproduce) with only other Muslims. We would have eventually died out if we only reproduced with other people from our religion. I think they are just ignoring the verses, because it is morally wrong to kill people from other religions. (some may view ignoring these specific verses as sin)

@LynkFormer: not political views, but religious views.
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:38 AM   #32
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Why is this a bad thing?
Who said it was bad?

Was just saying the country is divided and it is really difficult to build a consensus on any issue when we can't get even agree with ourselves on the best course of action. Opinions are not bad, but in a Republic it is really difficult not to have a consensus when working together and compromise is consider a weakness by our own vocal extremist.


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As far as I can tell, the reason there is a war on drugs, is because people are willing to fight for drugs when they're opposed; which in turn comes from the appeal of drugs, which is that they alter natural brain chemistry to produce naturally desirable effects. Basically, human neuroanatomy, combined with the fact that there are such things as hard drugs.
And we are treating that right? No, we are not. We are just throwing money at housing these people in prison.


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What do you think is the reason for the war on terrorism?
we were attacked. That is the reason we are at war, but that does not explain why someone would think it is in their best interest to die killing westerners.

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It appears to me to be an issue of morality. The extremists were acting on according to a morality derived from a religion whose holy texts define the destruction of people not part of that religion, as righteous.
It is people using religious text to convince people murder is justified. Someone could use the same religious text to convince the acceptable that it was wrong. You could use the bible to do the same thing the Koran is not the only book that can be interrupted and used to convince people to believe what they want to believe. So the question is still the same what makes people acceptable to such suggestions?



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Old 09-14-2012, 12:00 PM   #33
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@JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan: Those verses are certaintly applicable to the terrorists today obviously, but for the majority of the Islamic population worldwide, I don't think it applies to them a significant amount.

Sure, the Koran states that one must not befriend a Muslim. However, I myself am not a strict Muslim, and neither are my parents. I pray twice a day, once in the morning and once before i go to bed, but not five times a day. Almost all of my friends are Christians, atheists, or Hindus.

I don't think today's Muslims are straight up defying the verses of the Koran, because it would be highly impractical to meet (and reproduce) with only other Muslims. We would have eventually died out if we only reproduced with other people from our religion. I think they are just ignoring the verses, because it is morally wrong to kill people from other religions. (some may view ignoring these specific verses as sin)
So most Muslims don't derive their morality from the Koran? Got it.


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And we are treating that right? No, we are not. We are just throwing money at housing these people in prison.
So you consider the US's method of going about the 'war on terror' to be wrong, like it's methods in the war on drugs. What I want to know is what you think should be done differently.

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It is people using religious text to convince people murder is justified. Someone could use the same religious text to convince the acceptable that it was wrong. You could use the bible to do the same thing the Koran is not the only book that can be interrupted and used to convince people to believe what they want to believe. So the question is still the same what makes people acceptable to such suggestions?
Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what you're saying here. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not.

I'll just say what I said previously: When it comes to religion (most, anyway), you don't base your morality on society, or create your own. You're supposed to base it on your understanding of the religion. A reason some people would consider the suggestion of murder as acceptable, is if they think their religion sanctions it. (There are obviously a multitude of other reasons, and this one isn't relatively common in our societies, but it's the most relevant one to the topic at hand.)



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Old 09-14-2012, 12:29 PM   #34
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@mim Are we going to play the semantics game again? REALLY? You put words in my mouth, then I asked about your position(requesting clarification if you will). and suddenly I'm accusing you of being commie/pinko/liberal/whatever?

I don't think we need to know more than they are zealots. They listen to certain clerics, who tell them what they want to hear about why their world is bad compared to the greedy west who blah blah... We know their reasoning. It's the same reason the TEA partiers exist. It's the same reason the OWS exists. People telling them just enough of a truth to get them riled up and willing to lash out. We don't need more information than that.


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Old 09-14-2012, 01:12 PM   #35
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commie/pinko/liberal/whatever?
humor... Not Kavars was trying humor at my own expense. Sorry.


Again, I don't care about a terrorist, I don't care about making them happy. There is no helping or making them happy that will change anything. I would like to know how to PREVENT FUTURE GENERATIONS FROM BECOMING TERRORIST.

No clue what would do that, but just say teaching people to critically think would cut down on the problem in the future. It would be cheaper and less destructive to help these countries build schools than to keep sending our money and our soldiers over there. NOT SAYING THAT IS THE ANSWER, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT TAKEN THE TIME TO KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS, just using it as a example.

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So you consider the US's method of going about the 'war on terror' to be wrong, like it's methods in the war on drugs. What I want to know is what you think should be done differently.
Yes, we are doing it wrong... We are using the military to fight a war on terrorism, when this is more a police action than a military action. When you have boots on the ground and soldiers in your country, it is a military invasion no matter the reason. When you violate your on Constitution it makes you look like hypercritics not beacons of freedom. I could care less what the terrorist think about us, but I do care about how we look to rest world and more important to me, I care about how we look to ourselves.

You can say they are over reacting, well I can’t speaking for the rest of the US, put if a foreign country would come into Texas to liberate us, we would consider them the enemy too.
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Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what you're saying here. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not.
Agreeing, just saying the Koran does not have the monopoly on it. People use the Bible to manipulate just as easily.



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Old 09-14-2012, 01:26 PM   #36
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If you think about it, maybe these terrorists just had a bad upbringing. (for example maybe their parents informed them of their radical/terrorist views and their children sought to carry it out.) Many serial killers today are serial killers because they were raised wrong.

I don't think any of these "terrorists" used ideas of their own and/or had some sort of religious "epiphany".

I hope no one views my statement as if I am defending them. I'm not. I hate terrorists myself.
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:24 PM   #37
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humor... Not Kavars was trying humor at my own expense. Sorry.


Again, I don't care about a terrorist, I don't care about making them happy. There is no helping or making them happy that will change anything. I would like to know how to PREVENT FUTURE GENERATIONS FROM BECOMING TERRORIST.
Gotcha, Sorry, this is why I waited a whole day avoiding the topic. I didn't really want to get into a political argument.

The only way to prevent future terrorists is the same way you would prevent future racists. You would have to remove children from their parents, teach them tolerance and love from the start, and never let them know what it was like before, and have them believe that is what it is like for everyone... Essentially you cannot completely prevent it. Remove troops from the areas the terrorists tell us to, and they claim victory and they use it to get other things they want. Retaliate with brute force and you get people who sympathize with the (now) martyrs. Teach them... How exactly? Forcibly take over their school system?

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Agreeing, just saying the Koran does not have the monopoly on it. People use the Bible to manipulate just as easily.
And Christians have their own brands of terrorists.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

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Old 09-14-2012, 02:39 PM   #38
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Like I said, I don't know the answer, the teaching them to critically think was just an example, not the answer.

However, no I would be against someone taking over our schools, so I would be against us taking over another country's schools. Also considering how well our school work here, us taking them over may only make things worse. However, I do think lack of education and lack of jobs does add to the problems, but is not the only cause or the magic pill.


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Old 09-14-2012, 02:58 PM   #39
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Like I said, I don't know the answer, the teaching them to critically think was just an example, not the answer.

However, no I would be against someone taking over our schools, so I would be against us taking over another country's schools. Also considering how well our school work here, us taking them over may only make things worse. However, I do think lack of education and lack of jobs does add to the problems, but is not the only cause or the magic pill.
I think it's probably more the lack of jobs than anything. Even when uneducated people have jobs and are able to make ends meet, they tend to be less likely to want to change that situation.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:48 PM   #40
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Again this is not kavars so this is a joke, but it did pop into my head while reading Tommycat post. Just instead of food, change it to jobs.

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