lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: BioWare ignored TSL...
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 03-05-2013, 06:34 PM   #41
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
But it is your conclusion not mine.I will write what I want to say.
It may not be exactly what you wrote but it's what I got from it. Especially considering you said what you said in reply to my questioning of Bellator, and how he said Kreia undermines what is great about the Star Wars Universe. I'm sure many people would agree with me that what I arrived at as a conclusion appeared to be an obvious representation of what you believed, given the wording of your reply and what statements you were replying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Don't attribute what I consider nonsense to me.
I can't really see how you could believe what you said, and then consider my conclusion off of your statement nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
I didnt. go that deeply or what I consider falsely into it.
You technically can't go "falsely" into something but whatever, I see what you mean by that. Whether you went that deeply in so many words or not, the implications are still very much there.


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 07:02 PM   #42
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Well since you just make up my meaning, I will leave you to continue the debate on your own. Anything I write would be irrelevant since you just make it up to fit your argument.



Last edited by mimartin; 03-05-2013 at 07:13 PM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 07:14 PM   #43
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
If you can't see the logic behind what I've said and insist I'm just lying to support myself, there's nothing really more to do besides be done with this. At least if you'd beaten me I would've admitted it.


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 07:53 PM   #44
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
If you would have actually debated and won I would have admitted defeat, but you didn't want to debate. You wanted to give new meaning to what I wrote. 2nd this really isn't a win or lose debate (even if you read what I actually wrote) it is merely opinion. That said, I have been known to change my opinion when some actually debates what I actually wrote.

For the record I am not saying you are lying to support your stance, but you are totally misrepresent what I wrote and completely misunderstanding my meaning. Instead of asking of asking for clarification. You just treated it as factual even when I wrote it was incorrect.



Last edited by mimartin; 03-05-2013 at 08:06 PM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 08:24 PM   #45
Bob Saget
Rookie
 
Bob Saget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 139
This is practically going back and forth. I was going to draw up a response to the Revan portion, but I guess I'll withdraw from that debate since someone either mis-interpreted what I said or took it a bit too seriously.

However, I will respond to the idea that you didn't read what I said mimartin. I said that TOR would have made a great singleplayer, not a multiplayer. TOR is practically a WoW clone just like any other game out there. After you beat the story, there is little to do. Pretty much the game ends, and everything becomes repetitive. A good MMO doesn't do that. If it managed to add something else other than the story, then it wouldn't have gone F2P. MMO logic 101

Also, I am skeptical of TOR since I have lost faith in Bioware thanks to DA2 and ME3.
Bob Saget is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 08:56 PM   #46
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Saget View Post
After you beat the story, there is little to do. Pretty much the game ends, and everything becomes repetitive
They have added plenty and are about to add even more, but then we are talking about taste. However, I have been playing since beta and I have plenty to do in endgame content, but then again I enjoy operations and group content. I can see where it would get very repetitive if someone was just doing single player stuff. However, I find group content anything but repetitive since people all do things differently. No two operations are exactly the same. I always find something new in group play. Again it may be a difference in people’s taste or the fact that my main is a healer and I have never played that type of role in any other game.

I was also against TOR, I wanted a RPG sequel to TSL, but it just isn’t that terrible game people have made it out to be. To me, it is more like bioware’s earlier games, KotOR and Jade Empire, just something you can play with friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Did you even play the game or listen to what she said, or did you just skip that?

Kreia said something to the effect that Revan went darkside to save the galaxy. Can we agree with that?

Well that goes against much of what Yoda has to say.

““Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

“To answer power with power, the Jedi way this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are.”

“Stopped they must be; on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now - if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did - you will become an agent of evil.”

“Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".”

So yeah, not really sure how being evil to do good fits in the star wars universe.
All I was doing is giving one example of what Kreia said that undermined KotOR or the Star Wars Universe. This was the only part of my reply directed at this question.

1st You may not care what Yoda has to say on the subject, but to me the movies are Star Wars, the rest is just superficial drivel to me (nothing against people that love EU, but it just isn’t my thing), so when talking the Star Wars Universe Yoda is the authority when it comes to the force. You don’t accept that, I don’t care, because I am only talking about my opinion, you have the right to yours and I have the right to mine.

2nd So what I was saying Kriea said Revan went Darkside to save the galaxy, but according to Yoda, the darkside is not the stronger way or the better way it is just the easy way, the lazy way.

To me Star Wars has always been more like the old western movies, the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad. There isn’t much grey in any of the movies.

So to me Revan going dark side to save the galaxy is saying Revan was just taking the easy way out. So he was just lazy, it was easier to just conquer than it was to take a lightside option. So you destroy your own troops to make the republic stronger, yeah that makes perfect sense to me.

So as you can see my rational had nothing to do with every facet of the universe. I was just giving 1 example from memory to something Kreia said that punched holes in the Star Wars Universe concept of good vs evil and the same thing kind of distorts the Revan I played in KotOR.

A little different from what someone surmised I meant from my example.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 09:05 PM   #47
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
If you would have actually debated and won I would have admitted defeat, but you didn't want to debate. You wanted to give new meaning to what I wrote. 2nd this really isn't a win or lose debate (even if you read what I actually wrote) it is merely opinion. That said, I have been known to change my opinion when some actually debates what I actually wrote.

For the record I am not saying you are lying to support your stance, but you are totally misrepresent what I wrote and completely misunderstanding my meaning. Instead of asking of asking for clarification. You just treated it as factual even when I wrote it was incorrect.
I debated what you wrote, especially given that you never offered anything as an alternative to my misunderstanding of what you wrote, aside from just stating I was wrong. But I'd really like to end this back and forth, and do so without bad blood. So could we just say the whole thing was a misunderstanding on both our parts and agree to leave this issue be?


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-05-2013, 09:55 PM   #48
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
I debated what you wrote, especially given that you never offered anything as an alternative to my misunderstanding of what you wrote, aside from just stating I was wrong.
you didn't ask for clarification either, so I just assumed you didn’t care to know what I meant in my reply to that question.

As to bad blood, while I take offense to people putting words in my mouth, I am a strong advocate to everyone having a right to their opinion and being allowed to make up there on mind. I just don’t like when they try to tell me how I feel or my opinion. My own family does not know me well enough to define my opinion on a majority of subjects. However, I take nothing personal on an internet gaming forum on something as trivial as discussion about a game.

It isn’t like I have the power to ban you or anything like that….Oh wait I do…

spoiler:
Joke - Trust me, if I banned everyone that disagreed with me, Achilles, Totenkopf, Tommycat, Q, Lynk and pretty much everyone else would be banned. I would be very lonely hanging out around here.



Last edited by mimartin; 03-06-2013 at 12:04 AM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 10:46 AM   #49
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
Yeah, Kreia's a liar and a manipulator, but what motive could she have for telling the Exile that a war, that he/she wasn't even aware of until talking to Atton on Peragus, had a more noble intention behind it than what the public knew. This doesn't really help steer the Exile in any direction.

Also, if I did take Kreia's word as gospel I'd have no qualms over saying the Exile is a stronger Jedi than Revan. Heck, it's not too far fetched for me to say it even without me taking Kreia's every word as fact.
Okay, I don't get it.... You admit Kreia is a liar. You admit she didn't even know about the war until Atton mentioned it. Yet you take her word on the MOTIVATIONS FOR THAT WAR? Seems fishy. I'd say her track record seems to prove that the only thing she was consistent on was manipulating the Exile into doing her bidding. She convinced the Exile to either kill or draw out the remaining jedi, and kill the ones who wronged her. She is more like the emperor in convincing people to do bad by changing the facts to fit her narrative. That's very consistent with Star Wars. The idea of Revan being somehow immune to the dark side influence seems outside the consistencies of Star Wars.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 04:23 PM   #50
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Okay, I don't get it.... You admit Kreia is a liar. You admit she didn't even know about the war until Atton mentioned it.
I admitted Kreia was known to lie. I said the Exile didn't know about the war before Peragus though, not Kreia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Yet you take her word on the MOTIVATIONS FOR THAT WAR? Seems fishy. I'd say her track record seems to prove that the only thing she was consistent on was manipulating the Exile into doing her bidding. She convinced the Exile to either kill or draw out the remaining jedi, and kill the ones who wronged her. She is more like the emperor in convincing people to do bad by changing the facts to fit her narrative.
I take her word for it because there is no reason to stretch the truth about Revan's motivations. Kreia stands to gain nothing manipulation-wise if she tells the Exile Revan had a nobler goal in attacking the Republic than most people believed. As I've already said, the Exile didn't learn of the war until Peragus. How could knowing the intentions of one of the agressors behind the war the Exile didn't even participate in, let alone know about, help to manipulate him/her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
The idea of Revan being somehow immune to the dark side influence seems outside the consistencies of Star Wars.
I never said Revan was immune to the dark side or that he/she never fell to the dark side, I said he/she had a much better reason to go out and conquer the Republic than other dark side villains do.


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 05:42 PM   #51
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
I take her word for it because there is no reason to stretch the truth about Revan's motivations. Kreia stands to gain nothing manipulation-wise if she tells the Exile Revan had a nobler goal in attacking the Republic than most people believed. As I've already said, the Exile didn't learn of the war until Peragus. How could knowing the intentions of one of the agressors behind the war the Exile didn't even participate in, let alone know about, help to manipulate him/her?
Simple reason. The Exile KNEW REVAN. Or at least respected Revan. And the Exile DID know of the war. There was even a segment of dialogue where she asks, "Then why didn't I follow him to war?" when speaking to the handmaiden. The exile didn't know of the near extinction of the jedi at that time. In fact there are parts where you(exile) correct Atton about a few of the happenings. The exile simply didn't fight in the great civil war. But the reason is still, simple. Convince the exile that not following the light path can be a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
I never said Revan was immune to the dark side or that he/she never fell to the dark side, I said he/she had a much better reason to go out and conquer the Republic than other dark side villains do.
Not really. The way you have described your position makes it out that somehow he was above the light side/dark side and maintained a positive message despite being DARK LORD OF THE SITH. They don't just hand out that "Darth" title as a sith academy graduation gift.


just noticed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
spoiler:
Joke - Trust me, if I banned everyone that disagreed with me, Achilles, Totenkopf, Tommycat, Q, Lynk and pretty much everyone else would be banned. I would be very lonely hanging out around here.
Grumble grumble.... I'll take being lumped in with Achilles Tot and Q, but LYNK!!!


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Tommycat; 03-06-2013 at 05:55 PM.
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 05:57 PM   #52
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
They don't just hand out that "Darth" title as a sith academy graduation gift.
They do in TOR.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 06:22 PM   #53
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Simple reason. The Exile KNEW REVAN. Or at least respected Revan. And the Exile DID know of the war. There was even a segment of dialogue where she asks, "Then why didn't I follow him to war?" when speaking to the handmaiden. The exile didn't know of the near extinction of the jedi at that time. In fact there are parts where you(exile) correct Atton about a few of the happenings. The exile simply didn't fight in the great civil war. But the reason is still, simple. Convince the exile that not following the light path can be a good thing.
But what good came of Revan not following the light? The Republic was shattered and weakened to the point of near utter destruction. Worlds were burned and millions of innocents slaughtered. Revan's intentions may have been good, but that doesn't mean anything good actually came out of what was done. And you can't argue that Revan really achieved power either. Revan was captured by the Jedi, and his/her mind erased. The events that play out in KotOR I's dark side version don't lead to Revan gaining power either. Not long after Revan killed Malak and took control of the Sith, he/she left. The Sith then destroyed themselves through a brutal civil war. Nothing really good came for Revan out of not following the light path, except for a limited amount of power that vanished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Not really. The way you have described your position makes it out that somehow he was above the light side/dark side and maintained a positive message despite being DARK LORD OF THE SITH. They don't just hand out that "Darth" title as a sith academy graduation gift.
I don't believe I implied that, but if I did, I didn't mean to. I meant that he had a better motive for falling to the dark side and being evil than other villains did.


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 11:04 PM   #54
The Lord of Chaos
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
I meant that he had a better motive for falling to the dark side and being evil than other villains did.
Yeah but there are people who think that's bull and Kreia was just full of it. Except that GO-TO, Disciple and HK-47 suggested the same thing Kreia did, too, but I guess they're all liars, too.


Liked KotOR and KotOR II? Didn't like TOR and the Revan novel? Check out what I would have done instead: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8913071/...nknown-Regions

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8977663/...own-Regions-V2
The Lord of Chaos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2013, 11:59 PM   #55
Bob Saget
Rookie
 
Bob Saget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 139
I think that we are forgetting how other characters in the game seemed to be repeating what Kreia was saying about Revan - he had a bigger plan in mind than simply having power for power's sake. as Chaos said - HK-47, disciple, and GO-TO as the most prominent.

Yeah, Kreia isn't the most trust-worthy character, but keep in mind that as the Exile was her student, you'd damn well think she'd want her to learn from her past students.

Of course, we can always revert to the same generic Sith Lord right? I get it that the OT ideology is great, but it might be great to also have a Sith Lord who isn't exactly simply drawn to power for power's sake.
Bob Saget is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 11:35 AM   #56
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
So you all agree that Revan went darkside for a noble reason of protecting the galaxy? He did evil, without required for the innocent to protect the innocent?

That is what Kreia and the others pretty much implied he did in the simplest form. You also also seem to agree that the Exile was the stronger of the two Jedi, that is what Kreia says too. Correct?

Well then, what is your problem with the way Revan is portrayed in TOR? Because that is exactly how they portray him. He is a pawn to the emperor, but at the same time Revan is scarifying himself to hold the emperor in check. Then he runs off and does some very grey things in his attempt to protect the Republic. So your problem isn’t what he did in TOR because you have no problem with him being a pawn in KotOR or Kreia’s stories where he did the exact same thing. Is your only problem with Revan in TOR, that Revan is in TOR and not a KotOR 3? Sure sounds like it.

Personally I loved TSL, one of my favorite games. However, its recon of Revan did make me like the character way less. I was way more offended by the way Revan was handled in TSL than I was in TOR. Again, that is just a personal opinion and will not apply to everyone, just me.

Kreia was a wonderfully written character, one of the best NPC I have ever seen in a game, but what made her great was also what makes her a terrible source. She was a great lair and manipulator, what makes someone a great lair and manipulator is when they sprinkle enough truth in the lies that makes it difficult to know when the truth ends and the lie begins.

Even at least some of what pushed Anakin to the darkside was for noble reasons, he wanted to save Padme. However, it isn’t always your intentions that make someone good or bad, it is how you reach your goals.

So you all agree that Revan went darkside for a noble reason of protecting the galaxy? He did evil, without required for the innocent to protect the innocent? Revan may have at first wanted to save the galaxy, but once he started down that path... Oh yeah Yoda quote don't matter in a Star Wars thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lord of Chaos View Post
Yeah but there are people who think that's bull and Kreia was just full of it.
Personally, I just think people (NPC) are putting a noble spin on Revan’s fall. Yes, Revan was trying to save the galaxy, however I don’t think he/she went darkside to save it. Since that pretty much goes against everything Star Wars stands for. Between the Mandalorian War, searching for star maps and then finding The Star Forge, Revan went darkside. It may have started as a noble undertaking, but “Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”.



Last edited by mimartin; 03-07-2013 at 11:53 AM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 01:10 PM   #57
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
So you all agree that Revan went darkside for a noble reason of protecting the galaxy? He did evil, without required for the innocent to protect the innocent? That is what Kreia and the others pretty much implied he did in the simplest form.
Without required for the innocent to protect the innocent? What does that mean? (I really just don't understand what that means, no hostility intended).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
You also also seem to agree that the Exile was the stronger of the two Jedi, that is what Kreia says too. Correct?
It really depends on the situation. Also, while I dispute the idea that Kreia had any reason to lie about Revan's intentions, the power of her prize pupil (the Exile is the prized pupil, just to make everything clear) does indeed seem like something she'd like to lie about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Well then, what is your problem with the way Revan is portrayed in TOR? Because that is exactly how they portray him. He is a pawn to the emperor, but at the same time Revan is scarifying himself to hold the emperor in check. Then he runs off and does some very grey things in his attempt to protect the Republic. So your problem isn’t what he did in TOR because you have no problem with him being a pawn in KotOR or Kreia’s stories where he did the exact same thing. Is your only problem with Revan in TOR, that Revan is in TOR and not a KotOR 3? Sure sounds like it.
My problem with his portrayal boils down to three things, in essence.

1. The fact they threw out the idea Revan's fall was a combination of his own choice to save the galaxy and his newfound lack of tolerance for those he found to be weak (a result of his observance of Mandalorians during the Wars).

2. They ignored any different outcomes of the two KotOR games when dealing with Revan and the Exile, which I find pretty poor because one of the major selling points of the KotOR series was the ability to choose your path. In KotOR II they made sure to at least factor in the most basic of your choices in KotOR I - whether you went light of dark and were male or female. But they didn't even try to take into account choices from the previous games with TOR, which for a game that's supposed to be KotOR IV, V, and VI (KotOR being a series where choice is an important factor) is pretty awful.

3. This isn't exactly a concrete reason, due to the like/dislike of TOR but I'll throw it in anyway. TOR, overall, really doesn't look or feel much like the KotOR games. Yet it boldly claims to be its successor. It seems to me they threw Revan in there to have a remote tie to the games they left behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Kreia was a wonderfully written character, one of the best NPC I have ever seen in a game, but what made her great was also what makes her a terrible source. She was a great lair and manipulator, what makes someone a great lair and manipulator is when they sprinkle enough truth in the lies that makes it difficult to know when the truth ends and the lie begins.
It's not always easy, but it's pretty reasonable to assume for some things that Kreia didn't lie, mainly just because she stands to gain nothing from lying about them. Also, just to point this out, Kreia was a liar, not a lair. If she was a lair the other Sith Lords would have gone inside her to plot their schemes and recuperate from battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Even at least some of what pushed Anakin to the darkside was for noble reasons, he wanted to save Padme. However, it isn’t always your intentions that make someone good or bad, it is how you reach your goals.

So you all agree that Revan went darkside for a noble reason of protecting the galaxy? He did evil, without required for the innocent to protect the innocent? Revan may have at first wanted to save the galaxy, but once he started down that path... Oh yeah Yoda quote don't matter in a Star Wars thread.
Again, without required for the innocent to protect the innocent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Personally, I just think people (NPC) are putting a noble spin on Revan’s fall. Yes, Revan was trying to save the galaxy, however I don’t think he/she went darkside to save it. Since that pretty much goes against everything Star Wars stands for. Between the Mandalorian War, searching for star maps and then finding The Star Forge, Revan went darkside. It may have started as a noble undertaking, but “Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
There are several people who would like to put a noble spin on Revan's fall, Mical being one of them. But there are also several people who wouldn't want to spin Revan's fall to be more noble in any way (and arguably, those who wouldn't are some of the most reliable sources on Revan and his intentions). Do you think HK-47 would want to embellish about Revan's fall to put it in a positive light? I'm sure if HK had known Revan's fall wasn't noble in the slightest he wouldn't attempt to put a "noble spin" on it. And then there's GO-TO, who's a realist and who's moral ambiguity is an essential piece of his character. He likes facts, straight up. He wouldn't try to sell a more noble Revan to the Exile.


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 01:50 PM   #58
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
Without required for the innocent to protect the innocent? What does that mean? (I really just don't understand what that means, no hostility intended).
It means the stupid auto correct on my phone stinks. Regard. As to the rest of my spelling errors, sorry I will quit posting if that is your attempt to win a non-win-able debate. This is all merely opinion by both sides

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
He likes facts, straight up. He wouldn't try to sell a more noble Revan to the Exile.
Plus the pure fact is nobody knows the pure facts about anyone’s motivations for anything. WTH are we debating anyways. I agree Revan went into it with the best of intentions, but fell to the darkside because he went down that path. Are you saying his straight up intentions were to go darkside? Now we get back to my earlier point that then he wasn’t taking the easier path, so then we are back to Revan being lazy. My Revan was not lazy, sorry that ruins the character more than anything TOR could have done.

Also TOR does poke a little fun at Revan’s actual sex on the Imperial side. The problem with TOR and Revan is people only play one class or see on YouTube video and base their facts off of that. I have played Smuggler, Knight, Consular and Agent to 50. I have also played Trooper to 41, and I still haven’t seen the full story of KotOR or TSL that TOR has to offer. Hell other than the Endar Spire, some statues and promise land reference in the smuggler story I hardly knew anything about either RPG before doing flashpoints. Same can pretty much be said for all the classes except the Knight and Warrior, although there is a quest on the Imperial side that has to do with a cult devoted to Revan, which is where I was talking about BioWare poking fun at Revan’s sex.



Last edited by mimartin; 03-07-2013 at 02:41 PM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 01:52 PM   #59
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
1. The fact they threw out the idea Revan's fall was a combination of his own choice to save the galaxy and his newfound lack of tolerance for those he found to be weak (a result of his observance of Mandalorians during the Wars)
Did you even play the game?
Quote:
They ignored any different outcomes of the two KotOR games when dealing with Revan and the Exile, which I find pretty poor because one of the major selling points of the KotOR series was the ability to choose your path. In KotOR II they made sure to at least factor in the most basic of your choices in KotOR I - whether you went light of dark and were male or female. But they didn't even try to take into account choices from the previous games with TOR, which for a game that's supposed to be KotOR IV, V, and VI (KotOR being a series where choice is an important factor) is pretty awful.
That's because the ending they went with has been labeled canon, and therefore anything that comes out AFTER they made it canon has to take Star Wars canon into account.

Quote:
This isn't exactly a concrete reason, due to the like/dislike of TOR but I'll throw it in anyway. TOR, overall, really doesn't look or feel much like the KotOR games. Yet it boldly claims to be its successor. It seems to me they threw Revan in there to have a remote tie to the games they left behind.
Have you even bothered to play TOR, or are you going off some bligger's rants. Because honestly there's more there than you are claiming.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 02:38 PM   #60
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
He has played it, but not enough to see the story. Hell I haven't played enough to get the full story. What I have and can remember off the top of my head

1. The Foundry Guide ---- I didn't like
2. Endar Spire - Cheap filler
3. Jedi Prisoner - I liked the Revan role (the exile role is what annoyed me).
4. Raghoul disease Well done
5. Promise Land - Very well done
6. Taris - Archives - Well done
7. Revanite - Nice nod to Revan
8. Statues on Corellia - Nice little Nod
9. Knight Companion - Very well done, I hate it and the companion, but it was well done.

After TSL, I always thought the trip into the unknown region was a one way ticket. I figured that was why Revan took off alone, she wasn't looking to win a war, she was looking to delay the invasion. So I guess TOR lives up to my expectations since Revan and the Exile meet the goal I set for them. Plus TOR is a hell of a lot of fun to play.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 05:04 PM   #61
Fallen Guardian
Wandering the Galaxy...
 
Fallen Guardian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Unknown Regions
Posts: 1,286
Current Game: Knights of the Old Republic
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
It means the stupid auto correct on my phone stinks. Regard. As to the rest of my spelling errors, sorry I will quit posting if that is your attempt to win a non-win-able debate. This is all merely opinion by both sides
No, I didn't mean anything by it. I just wanted to know what you were trying to say there. However, your point about the non-win-able debate does bring something up, which I'll address at the end of my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Plus the pure fact is nobody knows the pure facts about anyone’s motivations for anything.... I agree Revan went into it with the best of intentions, but fell to the darkside because he went down that path. Are you saying his straight up intentions were to go darkside? Now we get back to my earlier point that then he wasn’t taking the easier path, so then we are back to Revan being lazy. My Revan was not lazy, sorry that ruins the character more than anything TOR could have done.
It's true nobody knows anyone's true motivations, but you can estimate pretty well. And an estimation is about as close to fact as you can get with regards to someone's estimation. No, I was saying he went into it with the intention of using more of walking a delicate line between light and dark, and using a combination of power from both sides and eventually the dark side consumed him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
WTH are we debating anyways.
You know, I was asking myself that question a couple times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Did you even play the game?
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
That's because the ending they went with has been labeled canon, and therefore anything that comes out AFTER they made it canon has to take Star Wars canon into account.
It may have had to take Star Wars canon into account, but they could have added in non-canon things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Have you even bothered to play TOR, or are you going off some bligger's rants. Because honestly there's more there than you are claiming.
I wasn't saying that Revan was the only connection to KotOR, but I was saying it did seem like they threw him in there just to have a great big obvious connection to KotOR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
After TSL, I always thought the trip into the unknown region was a one way ticket. I figured that was why Revan took off alone, she wasn't looking to win a war, she was looking to delay the invasion. So I guess TOR lives up to my expectations since Revan and the Exile meet the goal I set for them. Plus TOR is a hell of a lot of fun to play.
But TOR doesn't live up to my expectations, which brings me to the realization that we're not going to ever (more than likely) be able to convince each other that our own view points are the correct ones. Some will agree, some won't. Point is, I don't want to be forever caught in a back-and-forth so this'll be my last post in this thread. It was fun debating, and it's definitely given me some stuff to chew on.


The truly fallen cannot return to the light. If someone "falls" and "returns," they never really, truly fell.

Current Work in Progress: Dantooine Tension

Released Works
Blaster Pistol Enhancement
Dustil Restoration
Ebon Hawk Texture Enhancement
Gaffi Stick Improvement
Weapon Model Overhaul Texture Rework (Thanks to Toasty Fresh!)
Sunry Murder Recording Enhancement
VP's Hi Poly Tin Cans - KotOR 1 Version
Fallen Guardian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 05:37 PM   #62
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Guardian View Post
But TOR doesn't live up to my expectations, which brings me to the realization that we're not going to ever (more than likely) be able to convince each other that our own view points are the correct ones. Some will agree, some won't. Point is, I don't want to be forever caught in a back-and-forth so this'll be my last post in this thread. It was fun debating, and it's definitely given me some stuff to chew on.
That was my entire point. Stated it a page ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
You can disagree all you want, that doesn't mean you are right.

And neither am I.
That is my entire point. Revan/Exile are our individual characters, we were the one playing hours on ending leveling through KotOR and TSL. We made the choices with what to do with our character. Sorry Fallen Guardian and The Lord of Chaos, but my Revan was a flawed character full of remorse for what she had done to the galaxy. She fell to the darkside in her quest for knowledge.
No matter what was done in TOR, many fan would have been disappointed with the way it was handled. Even if there would have been KotOR 3, there would have been disappointed fans with the way it was handled. It is really a no win situation for BioWare.

I have no problem with people hating TOR, my problem is when people act like their way is the only way and people that enjoy TOR are stupid. It is a matter or taste and opinion. I hate in EU that they killed Chewie, I don't yell and scream about it, I just ignore it. Others may like the book, I just understand that we have different taste and it is their right to enjoy it. I don't want every copy of the book burned just because I don't like the fact chewie dies in it. Also not a fan of the Star Wars Lego games, that does not mean I am going to belittle it and hope it fails, I just ignored them.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #63
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
I don't want every copy of the book burned just because I don't like the fact chewie dies in it.
I do, and since I'm the arbiter of all things that are right about Star Wars, in my own mind, only my opinion matters to me


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-10-2013, 05:07 PM   #64
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post

just noticed...


Grumble grumble.... I'll take being lumped in with Achilles Tot and Q, but LYNK!!!

Careful, Tommy, mim's just trying to get Lynk to do the dirty work.

As to overall topic at hand, was a bit disappointed in TSL, but it didn't stop me from playing it multiple times (esp due to modding). The ending felt a bit too abrupt for my tastes, but it was an ending just the same. And TOR doesn't feel any less Star Wars than any of the other games. Having read the Revan novel last year, I had an idea of what would happen in context of game. Don't really get attraction to Lego games......but whatever floats your boat in that direction (I'm not taking a ride though ). With a number of changes (mostly mechanics, not story), TOR would have made a fun SP game, but still w/enough flourishes to keep you in SW universe. Does feel like a grind at times as you lvl ever upward, but having dependable groupings makes it feel less so. Not really a big fan of mmo's anyway, but w/nothing to compare it too from experience......it doesn't suffer such criticisms for me. Now.....if I can just get to lvl50 before my sub runs out.......

And yeah, not a big fan of killing off Chewie......but it IS their property.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-10-2013, 07:48 PM   #65
Darth Avlectus
Your point?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Attack on Titan
Posts: 4,255
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lord of Chaos View Post
So why can't Obsidian make KotOR III and ignore BioWare? And BioWare did ignore Obsidian. They made it that the emperor turned Revan to the dark side, ignoring the fact that Revan left the infrastructure of the Republic intact and waged a war of conversion, not destruction.
This may be reaching a bit, but I'll give it a try:

It would make sense in war (pre encounter of Vitiate's obese force presence smother corruption surprise will crush thing) to save the infrastructure and tactical locations first.

Once Revan and Malak had beat back the Mandalorians and faced the old Emperor for the first (and for Malak, only) time, they came back. When they were out of reach of Vitiate, their will was their own once again, just now corrupted. It would make sense, then, that if Revan was going to take over the republic, he'd leave it intact enough to actually have something to take. Especially since he was planning mutiny against Vitiate.

As far as the war of conversion: though the will-crush effects and memories were directly sealed or blocked off in the minds of Malak and Revan to allow them to regain control (similar to supressing/repressing memories of abuse or disturbing horros), they knew/figured out what had happened and how it had been done.
Who is to say now that they didn't know how to use the power themselves at this point? Also, the Rakatan facilities did many, many advanced things, so it is not unreasonable to believe Revan had some kind of technological help to give him an edge over the minds and wills of the already willing followers for conversion. Malak probably did, too. Only thing was now, Malak was scheming to take over this movement for himself as Revan was preoccupied, scheming to take revenge on Vitiate.

Vitiate, having been Naga Sadow's apprentice, was probably aware of the Star Forge due to the star map in Sadow's tomb. However, the only time he might have been in a position to do anything about it and get it for himself, he was not powerful enough to have succeeded. The other pieces of the star map were either in neutral or Republic territory and remained so. Therefore he must not have known the full extent of its power or its drawbacks. So he trusted 2 new lackeys because he did not want to reveal himself. He essentially sent them on a death/suicide mission and planned to attack when the republic was still wounded and recovering.


Far as Kreia's other stuff: While she believed Revan knew the difference between falling and sacrificing himself to the darkness, she did disclaimer that this is as she knew him long ago and may not have been true anymore. Or it could hint that while Revan may have been corrupted, he possibly went with it at the last moment because Vitiate's will was not absolute (he'd have already taken over the galaxy if it was) and he needed minions for his deeds. So it was rope-a-dope, scheming, conniving.
I think sacrificing to darkness was more appropriate for Kreia because of the role she took, all the deception, lies, and manipulation, to get The Exile to evolve, change, and face the past once again. She's hateful and evil, but part of her motive was selfless (much as she wouldn't want to admit that).
I think even though she was dead serious about her dark desires to kill the force, she also wished to raise another apprentice like her first, or better.

Other contrary things she said can be safely chalked up to simply speculation or deception.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2013, 11:34 AM   #66
DAWUSS
Junior Member
 
DAWUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 357
It wasn't just BioWare who ignored TSL. Basically every run of TSL breaks SW canon.
DAWUSS is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2013, 06:26 PM   #67
Bob Saget
Rookie
 
Bob Saget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWUSS View Post
It wasn't just BioWare who ignored TSL. Basically every run of TSL breaks SW canon.
And that's what is stupid, LA should have been proud. It turned a bland Light Side/Dark Side dichotomy into a dynamic, very interesting concept. Neither side was truly right, neither side was wrong. And both had flaws... etc.
Bob Saget is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2013, 10:36 PM   #68
Paddy Garcia
Rookie
 
Paddy Garcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Over the hills and far away...
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWUSS View Post
It wasn't just BioWare who ignored TSL. Basically every run of TSL breaks SW canon.
TSL was the best thing to happen to Star Wars. As Saget said; it brought forth interesting questions and thought on the nature of the force, and people in general.

TOR reversed this progress, by reverting to the EVIL EMPIRE lead by the PURE EVIL Emperor. Bioware then blatantly copied TSL, by essentially giving this PURE EVIL Emperor the same abilities as Nihilus, except weaker (Nihilus didn't need some silly ritual to do what he did). The Emperor comes across as a villain who is powerful, not due to his own merits, but because the plot demands it.

But why does the plot demand it? Because the original trilogy was about good versus evil, and all of us love a good simple tale of a hero overcoming the villain every once and a while. What doomed Mass Effect series was when they went against this, when they tried to make the big indisputable evil into a beast with best intentions. By reversing the themes of the previous installments, they ruined the story.

KOTOR1 was largely your heroes journey, your standard Star Wars affair (with a few twists). However, that's not all it was. You had characters like Jolee questioning the values of the Jedi. You had the council, who thought themselves so morally right that they turned someone into someone else in attempt to make that person serve them. The Jedi weren't the completely perfect defenders of good and light in KOTOR, the narrative were questioned.

The same couldn't be said of the Sith, who were pretty much shown to be the evilest evil who ever eviled. KOTORII, as a good sequel, took the lambasting of the Jedi to a whole new level. You see the consequences of war, which show how horrible it can be and the affects the actions of those who are normally shown as the good guys can have on everyone else (if you don't think this belongs in the Star Wars Universe, check out the Clone Wars comics; those are another good example of the Jedi not being depicted as perfect). KOTORII brings some sympathy, some understanding to the Sith (though not very much), and completely lambasts the Jedi for their claimed perfection.

This "attack" on the Jedi is good; in order to tell a compelling story the characters and the factions in them must be sympathetic, must be something we can relate to. We (as humans) aren't perfect; there is no perfectly good faction that makes everything perfect just by being perfect with their magic or force. By deconstructing the Jedi, KOTORII made them more human.

TOR turns this around, by simply ignoring this. Jedi are turned into the largely perfect organization yet again, though I'm not entirely sure how bad it is as I haven't played much of it. Worse still, they ignore the issues and events brought up by KOTORII and just make up new ones, recycled from previous Star Wars stories. To add to this monstrous pile of nonsense, they compound this with a lack of roleplaying (less dialogue options besides evil and good), shoddy graphics, terrible gameplay, and hilariously awful writing catered towards "romantic" relationships ("payment in kisses").

I'm not saying that you have to be dark and serious, the Jedi don't have to be seen as "evil" (I would call them evil) as they were in KOTORII. The Reapers in Mass Effect were best shown as a pure evil, but every other race or character was shown to be a mix (prior to ME3). Not everyone has to be morally questionable, but for us to relate to them as characters, to make the narrative more believable, those that would appear human should act human. The flaws in the good guys make it easier for us to believe in them. Otherwise, you'll be as the Jedi are shown as in Episodes 1, 2, 3: painful Mary Sue depictions of the guardians of light and peace. As shown in the movies, who can relate to Mace Windu? Or Qui Gon? They aren't characters, they have no personality, we cannot relate to them.

Sorry this got so long, I only meant to write a short response. Also, I'm aware that not every rule or idea I wrote is always right; as I tried to show with the Reapers, pure evil and pure good are not always bad. However, when pure evil and pure good replace anything relating to characters, you have uninteresting names and faces acting out a story, rather than a story to which you can relate.

tl;dr
KOTOR I and II were the best thing in Star Wars since Empire Strikes back; perfect characters/factions (whether good or evil) are bad most of the time, TOR ignored the creativeness and themes of KOTORI and II and instead replaces them with overly simple good v evil. Also, I cannot write short responses and instead write incredibly pretentious, long winded ones.

Last edited by Paddy Garcia; 03-13-2013 at 10:47 PM.
Paddy Garcia is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2013, 11:07 PM   #69
DAWUSS
Junior Member
 
DAWUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 357
TOR does have its moments in regard to ditching the Saturday-Morning-Cartoon black-and-white feature, but they're often negated due to the Railroad Express being so blatantly visible. One Post-Act III Interlude storyarc is Exhibit A.

While TOR isn't exactly conducive to RP (beyond what happens along the quests' storylines), there are a few instances where things get interesting regarding characters. I find the light side Sith PCs interesting (because of the dynamic that they provide to Sith in general), but I have a feeling LA will just deem the dark side ones canon (complete with canon species and gender selections!). It was nice knowing you, Darth Imperius.

Another interesting thing to note in TOR is the number of dead high ranking Sith Lords and Imperial officers vs. dead high ranking Jedi Masters and Republic officers. And who in each group was killed by whom.

I would have loved to see TSL get a little more attention in SW lore, but it was being scuttled out the side long before TOR came into the public light (as I mentioned, you can't play the game [vanilla or RCM] without breaking SW canon, thanks to various material that covered the events of the game). I'd like to see Star Wars have more (intellectually) mature content in general, which is something that TSL (and few select SW entries) provided.
DAWUSS is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2013, 11:15 PM   #70
Paddy Garcia
Rookie
 
Paddy Garcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Over the hills and far away...
Posts: 10
But how, exactly, does it "break" canon? From what I understand of the canon, it didn't break anything. The force was never clear cut nor enforced in the canon, with new facets to it invented on a whim. KOTOR2 doesn't really do much to contradict anything else, as far as I can tell.

Last edited by Paddy Garcia; 03-13-2013 at 11:31 PM.
Paddy Garcia is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-14-2013, 12:34 PM   #71
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
I think DAWUSS was saying that Lucas ignored TSL when they made the events in it canon. For instance, Brianna and Mical both travel with the exile in canon. There is no way to get both to follow you in an unmodified game.

There are a ton of little hints of TSL through the game, which kind of fits since the exile was largely an ignored kind of hero. More like a Wedge Antilles kind of bad mofo. Think of it like Revan was more like Patton while the exile was more like Zhukov.

Like I ran across a couple of Clan Ordo(a TSL creation). Saw a few with the last names of people from the Mandalorian camp. There are a couple of tie in stories here and there on the BH story.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-14-2013, 12:55 PM   #72
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia View Post
TOR turns this around, by simply ignoring this. Jedi are turned into the largely perfect organization yet again, though I'm not entirely sure how bad it is as I haven't played much of it.
Sounds more like if you haven’t played the game at all, or we are playing two different TOR, because that isn’t the story I see conveyed at all. Now from the outside, smuggler and trooper stories, they Jedi do seem to be portrayed pretty much as perfect, but from the Knight story and to a lesser degree, but to a larger extent from the Consular’s story the Jedi order is shown to be anything put perfect. It even goes further on the Imperial side, the Warriors story and the Agent’s story show that the Jedi can be bordering on evil, when they let the best of intentions lead obsession.

TOR is nowhere near as deep as TSL, but it isn’t as shallow, superficial and predictable as KotOR either. All the stories are intertwined I have come to the realization that I have helped the wrong person a couple times on other characters while leveling my current character, but at the time, I did not have all the facts.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-14-2013, 01:20 PM   #73
Paddy Garcia
Rookie
 
Paddy Garcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Over the hills and far away...
Posts: 10
Oh, I have no doubt that it portrays problems in the order; I was more referring to the general depiction of the story. However, you cannot deny that the Jedi Order are once again "the good guys." Rather a fast transition, to go from the Jedi being few and corrupt to many and largely good again (and yes, I understand that it takes place several hundred years afterwards, but this is just an excuse to ignore previous plot developments and characters when it suits them).

KOTOR was hardly predictable, with it's rather excellent plot twist. Though you're most likely referring to how the main plot is rather predictable, how we are going to destroy Malak. Well yes, of course. An entertaining story requires confrontation (and usually defeat) of the antagonist. I guess if you perceive the story at a birds eye view in TOR, you look at the basic structure (who does what and when), the story is excellent. The same can be said for the first three movies in the trilogy (for the most part). If you consider the stories themselves, and not simply how they are told (such as important information being left out or characters making stupid decisions), the plot of the fall of the Republic is fascinating.

Episodes I, II, and III are still awful, however. When actually viewed in their entirety, with no EU or metathoughts to back them up, the narrative quickly crumbles. Why was the shield generator shot through the shield? Why was their a blockade earlier, but none now? Why does Qui-Gon only make stupid decisions? Why did the shapeshifter try to kill Obi-Wan, not part of her job, rather than leave?

The same can be said of TOR. From what I noticed, the narratives held up well enough, but every other part of them failed. The graphics and animations are lazy, the NPCs cookie cutter images of each other, the dialogue hilariously silly, and the dialogue choices ludicrously limited.

I will admit, I didn't play through all the characters. I got moderately far in the Agent and Bounty hunter playthroughs, and the experience was rather telling. The game was painful to playthrough, the copy and pasted fights of one to two button mashes, with silly cutscenes where I can choose to be GOOD or BAD and nothing else were frustrating.

Although, contrary to what I said, some of the plot lines were the most asinine things I'd ever seen. Like everything touching Revan. You're telling me, that the Exile (who defeated Nihilus) and Revan, could not defeat the Emperor, who was essentially a less powerful Nihilus (He had to do some complex ritual to eat a world). In fact, the Revan book provides a good idea of Bioware's priorities. Kill off the Exile and keep Revan alive for hundreds of years.

And just because some threads are split between characters, it doesn't mean the game is deeper. I think that's more of a ploy to ensure players would pay to play longer what was initially a subscription based game, so they could see all in the story.
Paddy Garcia is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-14-2013, 08:01 PM   #74
DAWUSS
Junior Member
 
DAWUSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia View Post
Although, contrary to what I said, some of the plot lines were the most asinine things I'd ever seen. Like everything touching Revan. You're telling me, that the Exile (who defeated Nihilus) and Revan, could not defeat the Emperor, who was essentially a less powerful Nihilus (He had to do some complex ritual to eat a world). In fact, the Revan book provides a good idea of Bioware's priorities. Kill off the Exile and keep Revan alive for hundreds of years.
And you want to make more of a parallel, take a look at the fates of T3-M4 and HK-47 and who made more use of which droid. While HK-47's was decided far before T3-M4's, it's still something to note.

Regarding the Emperor, while I wasn't expecting Revan and the Exile to off him, the entire sequence of events could have gone better.

Quote:
And just because some threads are split between characters, it doesn't mean the game is deeper. I think that's more of a ploy to ensure players would pay to play longer what was initially a subscription based game, so they could see all in the story.
And the thing is, after your first Republic and Imperial character, the only thing left to play is the class storylines, because the planetary storylines are the same for each individual who does them. So who did what when we're talking beyond the class quests? If you did them only on your first character that makes sense, but after that you have people dying multiple deaths or unique objects being found in the same spot by different people at different times.

Regarding the class stories, I think it makes things a bit more interesting in the fact that you don't have *THE one* like Revan or the Exile, but 8 major movers who shape the start of the war.
DAWUSS is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2013, 11:58 AM   #75
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia View Post
Oh, I have no doubt that it portrays problems in the order; I was more referring to the general depiction of the story. However, you cannot deny that the Jedi Order are once again "the good guys." Rather a fast transition, to go from the Jedi being few and corrupt to many and largely good again (and yes, I understand that it takes place several hundred years afterwards, but this is just an excuse to ignore previous plot developments and characters when it suits them).

KOTOR was hardly predictable, with it's rather excellent plot twist. Though you're most likely referring to how the main plot is rather predictable, how we are going to destroy Malak. Well yes, of course. An entertaining story requires confrontation (and usually defeat) of the antagonist. I guess if you perceive the story at a birds eye view in TOR, you look at the basic structure (who does what and when), the story is excellent. The same can be said for the first three movies in the trilogy (for the most part). If you consider the stories themselves, and not simply how they are told (such as important information being left out or characters making stupid decisions), the plot of the fall of the Republic is fascinating.

Episodes I, II, and III are still awful, however. When actually viewed in their entirety, with no EU or metathoughts to back them up, the narrative quickly crumbles. Why was the shield generator shot through the shield? Why was their a blockade earlier, but none now? Why does Qui-Gon only make stupid decisions? Why did the shapeshifter try to kill Obi-Wan, not part of her job, rather than leave?

The same can be said of TOR. From what I noticed, the narratives held up well enough, but every other part of them failed. The graphics and animations are lazy, the NPCs cookie cutter images of each other, the dialogue hilariously silly, and the dialogue choices ludicrously limited.

I will admit, I didn't play through all the characters. I got moderately far in the Agent and Bounty hunter playthroughs, and the experience was rather telling. The game was painful to playthrough, the copy and pasted fights of one to two button mashes, with silly cutscenes where I can choose to be GOOD or BAD and nothing else were frustrating.

Although, contrary to what I said, some of the plot lines were the most asinine things I'd ever seen. Like everything touching Revan. You're telling me, that the Exile (who defeated Nihilus) and Revan, could not defeat the Emperor, who was essentially a less powerful Nihilus (He had to do some complex ritual to eat a world). In fact, the Revan book provides a good idea of Bioware's priorities. Kill off the Exile and keep Revan alive for hundreds of years.

And just because some threads are split between characters, it doesn't mean the game is deeper. I think that's more of a ploy to ensure players would pay to play longer what was initially a subscription based game, so they could see all in the story.
I do believe that mim said that it wasn't as deep as TSL.

And really, how can you comment on story when YOU have not played them.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #76
Paddy Garcia
Rookie
 
Paddy Garcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Over the hills and far away...
Posts: 10
I haven't played them, I have watched part or all of most of the story lines. It's been a while, though.

I agree with DAWUSS' assessment, that the "eight major movers" is more interesting than THE ONE, though it'd be more interesting if someone made an RPG where you don't play as a big hero.

I'd have to rewatch the different stories to remember what was wrong with them, though what's wrong in TOR is mainly how they simply reverted KOTOR2 to a world similar to KOTOR1 (Big Sith empire v big Jedi Republic) and shoddy production values.
Paddy Garcia is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2013, 10:19 PM   #77
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia View Post
I haven't played them, I have watched part or all of most of the story lines. It's been a while, though.

I agree with DAWUSS' assessment, that the "eight major movers" is more interesting than THE ONE, though it'd be more interesting if someone made an RPG where you don't play as a big hero.

I'd have to rewatch the different stories to remember what was wrong with them, though what's wrong in TOR is mainly how they simply reverted KOTOR2 to a world similar to KOTOR1 (Big Sith empire v big Jedi Republic) and shoddy production values.
Trust me, play them. It's free. Then at least you can speak with some authority. Going by your assessment of the stories and the treatment of the Good/Bad dynamic, you really don't know enough to comment, and if the watching of videos left you with that impression, then you watched the wrong videos. Seriously, just play for yourself and make your own determination. Going light side on the imperial side is really fun, and produces some rather good story elements which explain why nice people would work for the empire.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2013, 11:54 PM   #78
The Lord of Chaos
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
I do believe that mim said that it wasn't as deep as TSL.

And really, how can you comment on story when YOU have not played them.
Well that's easy, he can comment on the story by reading about the story from people who have played the game and described the story.


Liked KotOR and KotOR II? Didn't like TOR and the Revan novel? Check out what I would have done instead: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8913071/...nknown-Regions

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8977663/...own-Regions-V2
The Lord of Chaos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-16-2013, 12:25 AM   #79
Paddy Garcia
Rookie
 
Paddy Garcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Over the hills and far away...
Posts: 10
I have played part of one, and watched most of them (one of the Jedi, the Smuggler I believe, and one of the Sith, the one where you become a member of the council). The stories themselves are not so bad, though I dislike where they've taken the overall setting. It's essentially KOTOR 1 2.0, with a few extra silly threads like Revan still being alive and the op because the plot demands it Emperor.

Saying that I've "read a story by reading about the story from people who have played the game and described the story" is disingenuous, watching a silent walkthrough that avoids all the "gameplay" sections isn't a description, it's footage of what actually happens in the plot. I just don't have to experience the hours of painful trudging and pve MMO combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Trust me, play them. It's free. Then at least you can speak with some authority. Going by your assessment of the stories and the treatment of the Good/Bad dynamic, you really don't know enough to comment, and if the watching of videos left you with that impression, then you watched the wrong videos. Seriously, just play for yourself and make your own determination. Going light side on the imperial side is really fun, and produces some rather good story elements which explain why nice people would work for the empire.
Yeah, when I look through the playthroughs again I was incorrect to state that the factions of TOR were made into more obvious good vs evil roles, and there's a lot more moral leeway than before (Episodes I, II, III).

I would give it another shot, if it wasn't such an awful game. It doesn't matter how strong the story and role playing elements are, when you have to trudge through hours upon hours of filler walking/swoop biking through uninteresting maps fighting hordes of enemies with that godawful mmo combat, it becomes a tossup between actually playing the story and roleplaying, or getting to experience the story without wasting so much time. I'd rather disregard the roleplaying aspect I'd get from playing my own character (what little there can be, with only 3 dialogue options at most at once) and watch a playthrough of it, skipping through the filler.

Besides this, the cutscenes themselves fail in every technical and artistic regard besides voice acting. The animations are ridiculous, the textures are terrible, the models/art design is dated, and the music seems to be entirely recycled KOTORI and II tracks.

Basically, in sum, the setup for TOR, the fundamentals of its lore (the Emperor, the fates of Revan and the Exile, and the whole war) just seem rather silly to me. They tried too hard to be the same as the clone wars, even the Republic armor looks like the clone trooper armor. TOR would've been better off without Revan and the Exile, in some other part of the Star Wars continuum. Of course, that bit is almost entirely subjective. What isn't subjective is TOR's shoddy production values.

Last edited by Paddy Garcia; 03-16-2013 at 12:33 AM.
Paddy Garcia is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-16-2013, 09:39 PM   #80
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lord of Chaos View Post
Well that's easy, he can comment on the story by reading about the story from people who have played the game and described the story.
Well I can comment on anything that I hear about second hand, but to form an opinion and speak definitively about how that story is a specific way(when it is actually not) seems a bit shallow. It would be like hearing the story of Star Wars from a Trekkie who heard about the story from someone else.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Game Discussion > The Unknown Regions > BioWare ignored TSL...

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:35 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.