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Old 10-20-2013, 10:32 PM   #1
supreme kotor
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The effectiveness of a classic suicide prevention saying.

*******************Disclaimer********************
In zero way am I promoting suicide. That's your own choice and don't listen to what I'm saying.
***********************************************

Now for the topic, we've all heard the classic argument "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". If you haven't heard this argument it is a common argument used by both big prevention corporations and normal people.

I'm not going to beat around the bush, many of the problems that people commit suicide over are not temporary problems. I've even known a man that committed suicide because his parents died when he was 15. This is not a temporary problem, his parents could never come back. I've also heard the argument that suicide solves all the problems you could have, it solves all the permanent and temporary problems.

Anyone who really thinks this through can easily justify suicide using this argument. Isn't it time that a better anti-suicide areguement is adopted? Or is this one is effective and fine?


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Old 10-21-2013, 08:45 PM   #2
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A fair, shall we say 'inquiry' in any and every case is what that individual's problems actually are.

I'm not going to go over all the issues which might be unsolvable or permanent.

Attitude overall is certainly indicative. Another thing to factor in might be brain chemistry.

It certainly isn't hard to see why someone with terminal conditions (disease, injury, genetically inherited disorders, etc.) would start disliking life after so long.


Part of it, I think, is how the long road is forgone in an age of instant gratifications. We (the common people) don't learn to root ourselves in reality, so consequently we drift and dream on a perch until we get knocked off and have to live in a rut. It repeats itself over and over. When you have a solid foundation then it's harder to 'knock you down' so to speak. I'm a realist. It's okay to both dream and see difficulty, but just keep it all in perspective.


Point being is perception and attitude plays a bigger role in suicide prevention than one might think.


On the other hand...I can't say anything to those who see no logical reason to keep going if their situation isn't going to get any better (a.k.a. hopeless without drama and hyperbole).

Maybe something to consider is what makes life worth living in the first place despite complication and difficulty.


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Old 10-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #3
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My thoughts to anyone considering it is that it's the single most selfish act that you can commit against your friends and family because it does nothing but spread your pain to them when you're gone.

I'm sure that it's at the point in their lives where they just don't care how other people feel, but in general, people that commit suicide aren't trying to hurt anyone except themselves and often forget about all the people that they will be hurting.



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Old 10-24-2013, 03:51 PM   #4
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The person attempting to commit suicide isn't trying to hurt themselves or others, they're trying to end/stop whatever is hurting them.

This is a poor analogy, but when you're on fire and there's no way to put it out and the only way you know of to stop the unimaginably painful burning is to take your gun and shoot yourself in the head to finally stop it once and for all... it doesn't seem like such a ridiculous thing to do. It doesn't matter if there are people who are there trying to put out the flames unsuccessfully who care about you and are trying to help you. At the point, the only thing that matters is stopping the pain, no matter the cost.

This will sound strange to a lot of people, but suicide is a way to protect ones self. It's a result of certain responses that are built into the human mind that may not make much sense because of the end result, but if we didn't have them, we wouldn't have been able to survive as a species since we'd have no concept of protecting ourselves when bad things happen to us that cause us pain. Suicide is a result of so much pain happening to a person that the only way to stop it is to resort to killing ones self.


What I find amusing in all of this is the way people deal with someone who is thinking of committing suicide or is suffering from depression is to blame that person for feeling the way they feel, as if the action they have taken or want to take is some kind of spiteful act toward people around them. They see suicidal people as a person who is making a bad choice when in reality, that person has already tried everything else that is available to them and has already run out of choices available to them. At the moment they're ready to commit to suicide, they have no choices left to them.

It's an illness people suffer from that ultimately leads to suicide. It's a terrible thing for a person to have to go through and it's a terrible thing for people around that person who cares about them who feel like that can't do anything about it... so then why do those people around that person blame the person who is suffering from that illness to begin with?

I mean, we don't blame people for getting cancer, do we? We do everything we can to try to help the person get through it and then abide by their wishes when it gets to the point where that person feels like nothing more can be done for them and they need to let go.

But that's the stigma attached to mental illness... it's more like contracting AIDS than it is cancer... in some cases it's worse. There's something wrong and you need help, but you know there's a stigma attached to it so you try to deal with it yourself without success and when people do finally come in to try to help, in most cases it's already too late and the people who think they're helping, aren't. Then when the person commits suicide, the people left get bitter about it and the vicious little cycle of stigma continues.


As for the issues that may or may not cause someone to commit suicide, those are too many to count. There are plenty of reasons why, the defining thing about suicide is that it's a way to stop the hurt, where the only way to gain a positive outcome for yourself is to end it all.

Finally, for those who think suicide is selfish... yes, that person is thinking of themselves, they're going through something terrible where, as I've said over and over, the only way out is to end it all. They're obviously at the point where all they can think of is a way to stop what is happening to them... but let's turn this around. If someone is going through all of that unimaginable pain, is it selfish to want them to continue going through that just so you feel better?

I mean, we do this all the time... just think of all of those people who send their aging parents to those homes for the elderly but then refuse to turn off the life support machine when it's finally time. People are living in a culture that is so afraid of death but so comfortable ignoring the quality of life... or the lack there of a person has.

In this society, people think it's better to be alive and perpetually in the worst pain that can be inflicted on a person than for them to be dead.

It's easy to have that view when you're not the one feeling what they feel, extremely difficult when you are.

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
The person attempting to commit suicide isn't trying to hurt themselves or others, they're trying to end/stop whatever is hurting them.

This is a poor analogy, but when you're on fire and there's no way to put it out and the only way you know of to stop the unimaginably painful burning is to take your gun and shoot yourself in the head to finally stop it once and for all... it doesn't seem like such a ridiculous thing to do. It doesn't matter if there are people who are there trying to put out the flames unsuccessfully who care about you and are trying to help you. At the point, the only thing that matters is stopping the pain, no matter the cost.
The biggest difference to me between this situation and the kind of suicide we are talking about is that the type of pain you're referring to would inherently kill the person regardless, and I don't look at it the same way as someone who does it because they are so desperate to get rid of the emotional pain that they feel. For example, I don't judge people that jumped out of the twin towers on 9/11 for a last few gasps of air or because they wanted to go out on their own terms, or they just didn't know what else to do; however, I do judge someone who has family/friends who care about them but decide to end their life because of emotional damage.

I can't even fathom what it's like to be in the state of mind that I'd seriously consider killing myself, but I still know that it goes against my opinions of nature to kill yourself (in instances not related to the one you described).

I'm sure that makes me a judgmental person, but suicide is a touchy subject for me, and I can't help but just be angry at a person who commits suicide like that.



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Old 10-24-2013, 05:31 PM   #6
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They don't want to do it either, but what choice do they have? You say you don't judge the people who jumped out of the twin towers, but that's exactly what a lot of suicidal people are doing, ending their own life is the last sense of relief they'll ever have before they die. Perhaps some of them want to go out on their own terms before they're crippled by depression or lose their mind? And if you're wondering, it does happen and it's a whole lot more common than people want to admit, there are plenty of people who end up alive but not really living due to some very terrible and crippling depression.

But can I be angry or hate someone who is thinking about suicide or has committed suicide? Never.

And just to put the point down. Emotional damage is just as real and devastating as physical damage and should never be underestimated or taken lightly. We strive so hard to cure physical illnesses, but we're terrible at recognizing just how important trying to fight against emotional illness really is.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:46 PM   #7
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To the topic, That's a bumper sticker. It's not any real argument against suicide. The arguments against suicide vary based on the individual. One friend of mine was suicidal because he was going through a divorce. That friend of yours who wanted to commit suicide because of his parent's dieing, is actually a temporary problem. The parents are dead. The problem is how he takes that temporary depression. Should I commit suicide because my sister was murdered when I was young? No, I am not still depressed over that. It was a temporary depression. The truth is that people make the stupid decision to end their lives because they THINK there is no other solution.

Some people have a very valid reason. But those are much more rare. Chronic illness, extreme pain, Being burned to death. I can understand those. But some people let their piddly problems become a reason to kill themselves. I lost a boyfriend WAAAAHHHH! I lost a girlfriend WAAAAAAHHH! I've been picked on WAAAHHH! Gimme a break. You ain't the only one who's had that happen to you, and there are people much worse off who are willing to stick it out. Go volunteer at a children's hospital where they have kids dieing of varying diseases. Go ask one of them if they would trade places with you, and most would do so in a heartbeat. Suck it up.


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Old 10-24-2013, 05:57 PM   #8
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And that there is the problem.

Someone is looking for help and all they get in return is ridicule, condemnation, mocking and other related asshattery.

Sure, some people may have reasons for suicide that seem silly, but giving them **** for it has a much larger chance of reaffirming their view that suicide is what they need to do rather than convincing them otherwise.

If you know someone who is thinking about suicide and it's obvious, it's them saying "help me" to whoever will listen and what do they get? "Suck it up."

Yup, peachy.



EDIT: Also take into account that different people have different thresholds for physical and emotional pain. Also, consider that just because something works for one person doesn't mean that it can work for everyone. People find strength in different ways, and telling them to suck it up isn't going to help a lot of people... it could even make things WORSE for them and lead them to this very end.

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
And that there is the problem.

Someone is looking for help and all they get in return is ridicule, condemnation, mocking and other related asshattery.

Sure, some people may have reasons for suicide that seem silly, but giving them **** for it has a much larger chance of reaffirming their view that suicide is what they need to do rather than convincing them otherwise.

If you know someone who is thinking about suicide and it's obvious, it's them saying "help me" to whoever will listen and what do they get? "Suck it up."

Yup, peachy.



EDIT: Also take into account that different people have different thresholds for physical and emotional pain. Also, consider that just because something works for one person doesn't mean that it can work for everyone. People find strength in different ways, and telling them to suck it up isn't going to help a lot of people... it could even make things WORSE for them and lead them to this very end.
Slag off with that. I've dealt with MANY people who were on the verge of suicide, and some of them really needed a kick in the pants to get them to wake up(my close friend it required a punch in the nose to wake him up). Look at the THIRD SENTENCE in that post. I start with compassion, and finding out what their issue is. My "suck it up" is my frustration about the reasons some give for wanting to kill themselves. So far the majority of the "excuses" people give are just them over-inflating smaller issues. Sure it sucks to lose a family member. My sister was more of a mother to me than my real mother, as she was the one raising me. Her murder at the hands of some rapist affected me, I won't lie. But adding to the death count solves nothing, and is just me being selfish.

too many people think that the only way to handle them is to coddle them. Not true. In several cases you actually have to force them to realize that they are much better off than they realize. But again. Take it on a case by case basis. You can't come up with some easy to define slogan like "Temporary problem solved in a permanent way" to define the millions of different people out there. Some really need medication to handle the emotional crap that's killing them on the inside. I've seen a few of them. I volunteer with counselors and victim advocates. One of the toughest women I met was a rape survivor who actually had her throat cut. Even as tough as she was, she admitted that she needs help. If you want a slogan, Suck it up is better than the temporary problem line. If you want to help a person who is suicidal for real? Seek out professional help.


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Old 10-24-2013, 06:33 PM   #10
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I never said coddling them was the thing to do, just that different people find strength differently. But yes, with this second post of yours, you're making a whole lot more sense now that you've elaborated rather than your first post which was severely lacking.

I totally agree that handling things differently for each case is the way to go and yeah, I do agree that some people just need a kick in the rear to set them straight... others don't. This second post of yours is what should have been your first post.

As for telling me to slag off, let this be your first official warning from me and the only one you'll get for anything. Don't talk to me that way again. I'm very harsh in my moderating compared to all of the moderators here which is why I usually stay the hell away from Kavar's.

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:59 PM   #11
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I didn't like the tone of your post, and felt it was kind of rude. But whatever, not important to the discussion. I'll edit it out if it's that big a deal to you...
At any rate... Having actually dealt with persons through being the first one called to "talk someone down" I can state that more often "suck it up" works better than "It's okay." It seemed to me that you were excusing suicide. I can never do that. I will never excuse suicide except for the extreme cases. It seemed that you were willing to give those who take the easy way out almost a pass. I'd rather try to save them as best I can.

Pro-tip: If you know someone who is contemplating suicide, get them talking. They usually want to finish what they are telling you before they go out. Keep asking questions. Even if the questions seem stupid in hind sight. If you can find a way over to their house to talk to them in person. Very few suicides are carried out in front of other people. Above all else, GET THEM HELP!


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Old 10-24-2013, 07:52 PM   #12
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And I totally agree, but your initial post said nothing to that effect. You came out on the attack without elaborating. I didn't like the tone of your original post.

As for me excusing suicide. No, I wasn't, I never have and I never will.

The issue I have are the people who direct hatred and contempt toward people who do contemplate or commit suicide. Just as you and people you know have been through a lot relating to this subject, so have I... and I've observed that hate in others... a kind of hate I can't bring myself to feel for even the one I loved who committed suicide even when her family basically disowned her after the fact.

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Old 10-24-2013, 08:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supreme kotor View Post
This is not a temporary problem, his parents could never come back.
But that's not the real problem, now is it? The problem is the inability to deal with the loss of his parents, and that one could say is temporary/possible to be changed.



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Old 10-24-2013, 09:22 PM   #14
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I feel this needs to be said because of the sensitive topic the way things are worded in this post really needs to be carful. We all(yes I need to remember this too and I'm fully admiting it) need to remember a swift kick in the ass may be the solution to some problems but others that may just make it worse. Allow me to use one of my horrible analogies:
Lets say you need to make a nail go in farther, a hit with a hammer will solve this problem. But if you need to fix a crack ok your windshield a hot with a hammer will only make the problem worse. So lets all just please watch what were saying.

More focused on the subject though, another thing people have to realize is someone I care about helping me through the situation is a solution to suicide. And I promise you the areguement I listed above is the first thing any inexperienced person will go to. Even if you google how to help someone in considering suicide that argument is almost always listed.


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Old 10-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
They don't want to do it either, but what choice do they have? You say you don't judge the people who jumped out of the twin towers, but that's exactly what a lot of suicidal people are doing, ending their own life is the last sense of relief they'll ever have before they die. Perhaps some of them want to go out on their own terms before they're crippled by depression or lose their mind? And if you're wondering, it does happen and it's a whole lot more common than people want to admit, there are plenty of people who end up alive but not really living due to some very terrible and crippling depression.

But can I be angry or hate someone who is thinking about suicide or has committed suicide? Never.

And just to put the point down. Emotional damage is just as real and devastating as physical damage and should never be underestimated or taken lightly. We strive so hard to cure physical illnesses, but we're terrible at recognizing just how important trying to fight against emotional illness really is.
Just note: I'm not telling people to suck it up and that emotional damage is not anything to take lightly. But people who are sitting in a burning building with no way out are dead regardless. People who have emotional trauma and choose suicide have chosen death over even trying to live. That's the difference between those two types in my mind.



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Old 10-25-2013, 02:00 AM   #16
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The people who jumped out of the towers have chosen death over trying to live... How did they know that jumping out of the building was their only option they had left? Did they know for sure that they were dead regardless at the time? We know now because of hindsight, but they didn't have that option. I'm sure there were plenty of people who were trying to get out of that building without jumping to their deaths.

Also... "trying to live" ...these three words together... confuse me. I don't know why.



EDIT: Also, just to make things clear, I'm just really confused as to how people can so easily demonise people who consider suicide or go through with it so easily. It's a very... disturbing thing I've noticed in western society. I've never said we should coddle people who are going through this, rather I find that there's a stigma behind all of this which is doing more to stop people seeking help because of the attitude people have toward them which ultimately leads some people who could've easily gotten help to hide away and get worse.

I think ultimately, that's the big problem I'm having when it comes to this issue as well as those who do come forward and are met only with hostility. I'm sure some people here are saying "that doesn't happen, that's stupid"... but it does, it really does, and it's scary, very scary to see it happening.

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Old 10-25-2013, 03:59 PM   #17
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As I pointed out, it's an individual as-per-case basis of how it needs to be evaluated. There is no universal 'one size fits all' solution.

I agree in some cases people need to snap out of it. I also agree in some cases a more delicate approach needs to be taken. Either way implies a sort of 'tunnel vision' where the person under contemplation can only see their destination and no other way out.

There's overlap between people who have attempted suicide (where rescue is quite possible), versus actually committed (much harder to rescue and much more difficult to see it before it happens), but there are two camps. That isn't to say the people who may be playing a dangerous game just for attention should necessarily be ignored, but the premises for the former usually tend to not be as severe or be personally dead serious (no pun) about it as the latter. This might account for the difference in cases.

What this means is the people who are much more serious about it is probably because their perception about reality as it stand is not distorted because their reality truly is bad. We have to be careful, however, not to dismiss or invalidate others because we don't know if their mental health is on a precarious edge: we don't want to send them over that edge. Having said that, those whose issues aren't as severe tend to have a more distorted perception about their problems and about reality which can be for any number of reasons.

We often do not realize the importance of rooting ourselves into a sturdy personal foundation. No this is not something we're born with, so it must be taught. It's tragic, I think, that people are not learning this. I'm not going to get off into what or whom is to blame for that. However, one thing is clear to me: many issues can be averted if not avoided entirely if we would learn the difference between real self worth and false self worth.

.....Or am I just ranting and nobody really cares about a solution because they're too busy arguing?

Where someone is blowing a problem out of proportion, yes they need a wake up call. They need things to be put into perspective.

Where someone is in a situation that may never change but there is still good to be seen and had in their life, it is IMO worth trying to keep them here and not allowing them to commit suicide.

Suicide is not a very easy thing to do. The difficult choice could be made but they may still be looking for any reason to live because they want to feel better again. These people may hesitate to go through with it because there may be something more that they want from life that they aren't getting. These people may want something more to live for but just can't see it as much as they try. They're trying to live because they're trying to find a reason to go on living.


Quote:
Originally Posted by supreme kotor View Post
I feel this needs to be said because of the sensitive topic the way things are worded in this post really needs to be carful. We all(yes I need to remember this too and I'm fully admiting it) need to remember a swift kick in the ass may be the solution to some problems but others that may just make it worse. Allow me to use one of my horrible analogies:
Lets say you need to make a nail go in farther, a hit with a hammer will solve this problem. But if you need to fix a crack ok your windshield a hot with a hammer will only make the problem worse. So lets all just please watch what were saying.

More focused on the subject though, another thing people have to realize is someone I care about helping me through the situation is a solution to suicide. And I promise you the areguement I listed above is the first thing any inexperienced person will go to. Even if you google how to help someone in considering suicide that argument is almost always listed.
I agree. Somebody being there could make all the difference. Not just in suicide prevention but in other issues because it could prevent unneeded suffering. This kind of listening is very different than drama queens who just needs someone to listen to them as a crutch. Those people IMO are bad because there isn't any mutual exchange. Whereas someone in serious trouble may need someone who cares simply to be there, no stigma, no judgment. They will reciprocate and be more thankful than you know if you help bring them out of their darkest place.


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Old 10-27-2013, 11:00 AM   #18
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I find myself, for I'm pretty sure the first time in eight years, agreeing wholeheartedly with Lynk.

Suicide is a hard issue for me. I was suicidal as a teenager. Twice, actually. Once at 13, when I actually attempted to kill myself as a result of some heavy bullying; and again at 17 following both a hard breakup and the death of my Grandfather. And since then I've also dealt with the depression and suicidal thoughts of more than one friend. Some worked out in the end, and I like to think I had a part to play, even a small one, in their eventual recovery. Others... I dealt with rather badly, with less than happy results.

The issues being dealt with by someone contemplating suicide are never seen as temporary. Grief, fear, rejection, and loneliness all have a way of blinding one to the rest of reality and circumstance. And these are all things that different people with different life experiences handle in their own ways and at their own pace. Some people take a very long time to come to terms with these things compared to others.

I'll use my own experience as a brief example. My then-girlfriend had next to no relationship with her own grandparents, so she wasn't able to understand my grief after losing my Grandfather. So while I wasn't yet ready to let go of my grief even a month later, she saw me as depressing and needy. Then when we broke up the following summer, many of my friends didn't realise how difficult the weight of loss over the previous months was for me, and felt I was being overly dramatic. Other people expected me to have been able to deal with events and emotional issues the same way and in the same time they themselves would, and this just isn't the case.

I can't say I agree with the idea that some people just need to "snap out of it". Maybe some people can indeed be forced to see and acknowledge the whole of their circumstances through tough love... but I was never one of them, nor are any of the people I've known who've suffered through suicide or depression. Clinical depression just plain isn't something that someone can "snap out of" - they need medication, therapy, and emotional support to overcome their very real mental illness.
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:26 PM   #19
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Why do I demonize those who want to commit and or do commit suicide? On the whole the idea of suicide irritates me. It is the equivalent of someone slashing a priceless painting. How angry would you be to find that someone had destroyed the Mona Lisa? Every person alive is worth more than the Mona Lisa in my eyes(except criminals, but that's another discussion). To save their lives, I'd just about burn down the Louvre. So for them to destroy the unique art that is their life, and their person, does anger me to an extent.

Oh, and I was suicidal for a time. I even had "A Plan" as they say. Now, I guess I'm not typical, but a friend of mine saw how I had set up the makeshift gallows that was going to serve as my final farewell, and made me angry enough at him to finally talk about everything that was affecting me. Bullying, lost girlfriend, dead sister, parents divorce, mom leaving for Japan, Dad suffering massive stroke, severe loneliness, blah blah woof woof. Pretty much could have made an after school special about my life. I thought my life was the worst life there was. His response? He beat the tar outta me. Is that the way everyone should be treated? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It was just the only thing that worked for me. It wasn't until I started really fighting back that I realized MY LIFE was worth saving. it sounds strange that getting beaten up like that would actually straighten me out, but you kinda had to be there. I had to learn that for myself. That I had value to myself.

Again. that doesn't work for everyone. There's a reason there isn't only one tool in a mechanic's tool box. That's the equivalent of a 10lb sledgehammer. Sure, most people use the "Temporary Problem" line. It's the suicide prevention equivalent of "Have you tried switching it off and on?" You know what the best line for suicide prevention is? "Hey man, lets talk." But that doesn't look good on bumper stickers, or posters, or on the suicide web page.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:00 PM   #20
supreme kotor
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Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
"Hey man, lets talk." But that doesn't look good on bumper stickers, or posters, or on the suicide web page.
I think we all understand full well that what needs to be said and what makes everyone happy to hear us usually quite different. In a serious topic I think you can't worry about what looks good on a number sticker but instead what needs to be said.


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