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Old 08-31-2012, 02:03 AM   #1
Sithspecter
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To Holowan Veterans Regarding New Modders

A growing trend here in Holowan Laboratories has been to dissuade new modders from attempting the modifications that they would like to complete. This trend started out with good intentions: at first it was a friendly, "You might want to get some more experience before you attempt that."

But lately, it's gotten worse. Probably to the point that it could drive new modders away from Holowan. Instead of being the, "Friendly Technology People," we've become the "Mod Shoot Down People."

So, it's got to stop. If there's a new poster/modder, and you don't think they can complete the mod idea that they've posted, that's fine, that's your opinion. But do refrain from posting it in their thread. Instead, you could say:

"Welcome to Holowan Laboratories, here's the tutorial section, and if you have any questions, please feel free to post them, and we will do our best to answer them. Good luck with your mod!"

If we get any more: "Oh, well, you shouldn't attempt this, because, well, you're new," then I will personally edit your post to say:

"Welcome to Holowan Laboratories, here's the tutorial section, and if you have any questions, please feel free to post them, and we will do our best to answer them. Good luck with your mod!"

And I will possibly volunteer you to help them out.

If they can't accomplish it, then they won't accomplish it. If they can, then they will do it. One great example of this that popped up, oh, four years ago is logan23's Revenge of Revan. New modder, huge mod, pretty much everybody doubted. Now, four years later, he's released an amazing demo and he's still chugging along.

So please, be welcoming.

That is all.




Last edited by Sithspecter; 09-03-2012 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:37 AM   #2
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What if i disuade newb modders and i am not a modder :P

I never said Holowan Modders, I said Holowan Veterans.

And if you do that, I will volunteer you to help them with their project.

-SS

Last edited by Sithspecter; 08-31-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:25 PM   #3
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What if i disuade newb modders and i am not a modder :P
Then I suppose you will have to learn to mod then...


I am back.
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:56 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Sithspecter View Post
One great example of this that popped up, oh, four years ago is logan23's Revenge of Revan. New modder, huge mod, pretty much everybody doubted. Now, four years later, he's released an amazing demo and he's still chugging along.
^ This.

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Then I suppose you will have to learn to mod then...
Oh, the woe!



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Last edited by LDR; 08-31-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:53 PM   #5
Sith Holocron
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Message received. Over and out.




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Old 08-31-2012, 09:09 PM   #6
90SK
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I try to be constructive with my comments, definitely message received and also reiterated - I remember being a new modder in the presence of elders and its such a plus to have someone with experience give good advice over discouragement.

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Old 08-31-2012, 09:33 PM   #7
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I guess if/when I've put someone down, it's because I don't want TC mods, I want quality put into something useful to me. Why should I be invested in someone's poorly fleshed out story/idea when they have nothing to show for it yet? And pretty much everything they end doing could be released as a seperate, cool mod that can appeal to a wider audience. Instead of putting individuals down for their ambition though, I try not to comment instead.

Idk, this is me being candid about how I feel about new, overly ambitious young'ns. I figure if we realize why all of this pessimism is surrounding these projects, we can better understand how to solve the problem - not just (no offence, SithSpecter, you know I love you) tell us to not hurt their feelings.

To sum up my feelings, I believe the answer lies in how it is all said. Don't encourage them, don't discourage them, but persuade them to start out smaller.

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Old 08-31-2012, 10:04 PM   #8
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I guess if/when I've put someone down, it's because I don't want TC mods, I want quality put into something useful to me. Why should I be invested in someone's poorly fleshed out story/idea when they have nothing to show for it yet? And pretty much everything they end doing could be released as a seperate, cool mod that can appeal to a wider audience. Instead of putting individuals down for their ambition though, I try not to comment instead.
Sounds like a bad case of entitlement, honestly. You're not being asked to be invested in anything. I believe the point of Holowan Labs is for people to show and receive feedback on what they ARE working, not for people to tell what they SHOULD work on.

This is something for private messages. A modders WIP thread should not be swarmed by 5-6 older members of the community as soon as it's made with pretty much "don't bother".

By making a public spectacle of their ideas, their mods, and the people themselves, it drives people away. WIP threads are for constructive feedback, the "you're not good enough" comments should be done through backchannels. I've honestly never seen such an unwelcoming modding community, usually people rush to help newbies, because new modders ='s new content for everyone.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:36 PM   #9
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Sounds like a bad case of entitlement, honestly. You're not being asked to be invested in anything. I believe the point of Holowan Labs is for people to show and receive feedback on what they ARE working, not for people to tell what they SHOULD work on.

This is something for private messages. A modders WIP thread should not be swarmed by 5-6 older members of the community as soon as it's made with pretty much "don't bother".

By making a public spectacle of their ideas, their mods, and the people themselves, it drives people away. WIP threads are for constructive feedback, the "you're not good enough" comments should be done through backchannels. I've honestly never seen such an unwelcoming modding community, usually people rush to help newbies, because new modders ='s new content for everyone.
I honestly haven't seen any comments that down right said "You're not good enough.", whether it said that plainly or alluded to it, and I've read a lot of threads in Holowan. Now I do agree that we as a community should try to be more welcoming to the new modders, and help them out more, but I fail to see how telling someone they should wait and get more experience before starting a TC or an SC is making a public spectacle of their ideas. If anything it is providing feedback.

But again, I can see how that "You should get more experience" line can be taken as, or can actually be meant to be, hostile/shooting down people's work.

So maybe if someone's already mentioned the idea of getting more experience no one does so again in the thread? If the modder decides to continue with whatever they're doing and someone's already told them that they should probably get more experience, then from then on only feedback about the mod's work should be given.


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Last edited by Fallen Guardian; 08-31-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:01 AM   #10
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I wrote up 3 different versions of this post before I realized I really don't care anymore.


So I'll adhere to this since I respect Sithspecter. Doesn't change how I feel, but hey, maybe we'll see a turn-around.


Speaking of trying things different, I'll forget about trying to address anything Disturbed above me said.


Last edited by VarsityPuppet; 09-01-2012 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 09-01-2012, 01:18 AM   #11
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To sum up my feelings, I believe the answer lies in how it is all said. Don't encourage them, don't discourage them, but persuade them to start out smaller.
I understand where you are coming from, but, these things will really sort themselves out.

When I started out, I had grand plans for a big giant completely new area mod for KotOR. Looking back, people were really very friendly and encouraging. They helped me out and showed me the tutorials and tools that I was looking for. Pretty quickly, I learned a lesson. Don't plan too grand. It was a lesson that I had to learn for myself. As a new modder, you really want to do big stuff, and there's not a whole lot that anybody can do to convince them otherwise. So the excessive posts persuading them to try something smaller just comes off as negativity.

On another forum I frequent that has a Buy/Sell/Trade section, there's sort of an inside joke that goes around. If a new seller posts a product with a ridiculous price, people will post, "Welcome to forum XXXX, good luck with your sale!"

If you think somebody's mod is too large for them to handle, feel free to post, "Welcome to Holowan Laboratories, good luck with your mod!" I only want to see this once per thread though, don't overdo it or anything.



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Old 09-01-2012, 02:51 PM   #12
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Then I suppose you will have to learn to mod then...
Make me


"Welcome to Holowan Laboratories, here's the tutorial section, and if you have any questions, please feel free to post them, and we will do our best to answer them. Good luck with your mod!"

-SS

Last edited by Sithspecter; 09-03-2012 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:39 PM   #13
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Make me
Not to invoke any wrath from the mods and admins but... they could ban you from the forum if you deem incompliant.


I am back.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:55 AM   #14
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Unless you're testing for bugs or other such issues I don't see any need for such negative criticism or "give it up" type of comments. An individual mod is not like a MMO update/DLC, it is not required in order to progress further or to complete the game -- it is a privilege that some modders take from their free time to invest into adding something fun & new to the experience. If you just don't like the mod because it's not something YOU would do then by all means step out and make your own, no need to rain on someone else's parade simply because you dislike or have low faith in the person's modding skills.

Constructive criticism is entirely different -- if you played through a mod and noticed issues with it, or maybe there was something about it that you think could have been improved upon then that is where the pos/neg feedback is essential as it is not only helping the modder but is also helping to get the mod fixed and re-released. That's my 2 cents on the subject.


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Old 09-03-2012, 03:55 AM   #15
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Constructive criticism is entirely different -- if you played through a mod and noticed issues with it, or maybe there was something about it that you think could have been improved upon then that is where the pos/neg feedback is essential as it is not only helping the modder but is also helping to get the mod fixed and re-released. That's my 2 cents on the subject.
Not everyone takes criticism lightly... Or even at all.A good example was of this.long lost mod called Cathalan. I never commented on it in the WIP thread but I will admit it did look enticing. However, said modder did not seem to be open to actually improving his mod. If I remember correctly, there were a number of us who suggested valid changes, but he pulled out the ol "If you don't like it, then don't download it" card.

Okay, I understand that, but what's the point of starting up a WIP thread and gathering attention and input if you're only doing it for yourself? Maybe this is just me, but I mod to try to find a middle ground - something I like that I think other people will like too. That's just me talking realistically about my philosophy. For other people it's about artistic fulfilment, or a bunch of other reasons - those of which I don't understand.

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Old 09-03-2012, 05:48 AM   #16
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Personally ill direct myself as an example, *ahem* (HACK!!!) Okay im good now...

Once i figured out how to use KotOR Tool little than a month ago i started out firing straight outta the gate with what i had knowledge of. My first attempt was modeling a Dragon Ball Z scouter and instead of learning how to model before i announced it to you good folks at LucasForums i went straight for Gmax and attempted a daunting task. Blew up in me cranium.

Skins! I think out of what i could do at the moment better than modding anything KotOR related is skins, but of course i realize i JUST started so the result of my anxiousness was my Face of Evil mod. (I tend to embarrass myself like that)

And finally Scripting. Not even knowing i had to mess with scripts, or what they were for that matter, i was determined to make shopkeepers expendable in KotOR. So telling LF members it was a WIP saved my skin there in a way, but i have a long ways to go for that to be completed.

All in all i welcome the criticism because if someone tells me it cant be done i will search for a way it can be done. My progress still continues but i have learned to not act in haste when it comes to things you dont understand. Takes time 8D

So... When you guys are ready direct your lightsabers and blasters in this direction, im a great example monnn.


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Old 02-10-2013, 06:39 PM   #17
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So many of the threads in here are so old I fear stepping into one and raising the dead.

I came here to see previous attempts to see models improved in the game. Not surprised most input here and elsewhere has been with retextures which is nice but increasing the resolution still isn't good enough to match Bioware's level of texturing. Increasing the resolution for textures here and there only makes everything else look bad in my opinion. 'tis why I avoid retextures unless they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

What needs to be done really is remake the models for the game, apply new 2013 ready UV maps and go for a very similar but much more detailed texture. No texture flipping on clothes to create that awful pattern effect where the ends meet. I'd like to just improve the existing models but the import process screws up the mesh (or modelling in those days wasn't as good, I don't know) and make it much harder to work with. Triangles are bad and what models I've seen each mesh is made of them.

What are modders able to replace? Are we able to replace the body mesh (like c_female) bind the rig again and will it still work? If it would still work, with animations working properly for a new mesh then I'd love to give the game a makeover. I know you can replace weapon meshes and I doubt that's too hard but being able to change clothing and armour would be awesome.

If that's possible and I'm able to replace character and weapon models with new UV maps and textures I might start thinking seriously about a project of which I could spend a lot of my time in as I have plenty of it, especially in the summer holidays.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:06 PM   #18
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It is a stickied thread, so (waves hand) the Forum will forgive me.

This was a cycle, the matter that this OP addresses. I thought it had ended with the completion of the major mods, but apparently old habits die hard.

I have been guilty of discouragement. My rectification for this was the Script shack; and that Script shack has a disclaimer.

Ultimately, I find it amazing that new people still want to make mods for these games. Makes me wanna scratch some rust off...

Reality checks, delivered with respect, should be allowed. Necro's of old topics that a newb has confusion about should be forgiven and answered. Trolls should be squashed.

I am just happy to return to a forum with some semblance of sanity. I am afraid the BSN brings out the disgusted angry Sith-leaning Qui.


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Old 06-10-2013, 10:18 AM   #19
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I admittedly was harsh against new people, though looking back, it's much clearer why (not that that makes it alright).
It seriously was all of the "Let's make a KOTOR 3" threads that pop up from from bran new people. Nice to see though that the real dedicated ones have stuck around, even if they didn't manage to pull off their ambitious mods.

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Old 11-04-2013, 03:49 PM   #20
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I firstly would like to say I back up everything Sithspectre has said, our numbers are dwindling and being friendly and helpful does make a difference to people sticking around. I look back at my first mods and some of the questions I asked, and would be if it were possible; a little embarrassed.

That said back when the forum was busier it could certainly be said to have discouraged Total Conversion mods... There was a time when new Total Conversion mods were posted every other day; I was admittedly harsh in them, however for me partly that was because I felt (as a Moderator) to make sure experienced modders threads, and those who had legitimate question threads were not pushed to page 2 and missed because there was yet another TC thread with 0 actual work having been done and just an idea being all that was in place. That is obviously now not a problem.

I do still think if people post I want a huge conversion mod thread in modding requests and wonder why no modders have taken on the huge work of implement their idea we should hit them wit a wet fish.



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