lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Wanting a reason to believe
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 11-03-2013, 06:39 PM   #41
Canderis
Mercenary
 
Canderis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Unknown
Posts: 2,497
Current Game: Skyrim
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
But how can something never have started?




Canderis is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-03-2013, 09:57 PM   #42
supreme kotor
Junior Member
 
supreme kotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: I'm lost.
Posts: 324
Current Game: Modding.. Wait is that a game?
Even though this is an old thread I was talking with a friend today and fealt like I would share this. It seems that atheism and Christianity bump heads alot so I'll use those two as my example. Lets say man#1 was athiest and man#2 was Christian. Lets day one day Christianity is wrong and atheism is the correct view neither man lost anything. But if one day Christianity is proven true then man#1 lost alot.


Current WIP: Learning to mod Kotor
supreme kotor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-03-2013, 10:14 PM   #43
DuckfromPortal
Rookie
 
DuckfromPortal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 131
Current Game: TSL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderis View Post
But how can something never have started?
Well it starts itself through its own end and creates a time loop sort of, it's hard to explain. . .
DuckfromPortal is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-03-2013, 10:29 PM   #44
Canderis
Mercenary
 
Canderis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Unknown
Posts: 2,497
Current Game: Skyrim
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckfromPortal View Post
Well it starts itself through its own end and creates a time loop sort of, it's hard to explain. . .
I know what you mean, I've come up with that before, but it is another concept I cannot comprehend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supreme kotor View Post
Even though this is an old thread I was talking with a friend today and fealt like I would share this. It seems that atheism and Christianity bump heads alot so I'll use those two as my example. Lets say man#1 was athiest and man#2 was Christian. Lets day one day Christianity is wrong and atheism is the correct view neither man lost anything. But if one day Christianity is proven true then man#1 lost alot.
What if islam is true? Then they both lost a lot. It's not a 2 party system where if you 'believe' your soul is automatically saved if the other one turns to be false. There's a lot of religions out there. Picking one at random in hopes its right is like trying to win the lottery when you don't even know if a single number will be drawn. Plus believing just for the sake of 'maybe it's right' really isn't believing, is it? Its like saying i love you with your fingers crossed.




Canderis is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-03-2013, 10:55 PM   #45
Darth Avlectus
Any other dumb remarks?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Driving a garbage truck
Posts: 4,228
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderis View Post
Alright. I'm an atheist. And I hate it. The most frightening thought to me is that when we die, that's it. I can't imagine what true nothing is like. I just cannot grasp it. But unfortunately, because of how my mind works, that is what I believe happens when we die.
Perhaps another way of looking at it is that you are left unsatisfied with what you know and realize with harsh reality, intellect, fact? If that was the end-all-be-all, then it would be enough. But it isn't the end-all-be-all.


Quote:
I really wish I could believe in something different, a religion or something, just to help make the end a little less scary, but I can't just believe in something to believe in something. I can't do it. I could say I do, but then there's still that thought hidden behind the believing exterior. It's really hard to have a positive look on life and think like this. Does anyone else feel the same way? Can anyone help me change my belief?
Well, I've been in a similar place. While I cannot say I completely believe everything in religion, I relaxed my disbelief in the idea there's something more to reality. See, I used to automatically shut it out just because. Then I came to the realization that I was just as strict and lacking for lenience as some theists out there. Now I like to think I'm a happy medium. highly intellectual folk may think me whacky, highly religious folk may call me heretic. I am what I am.

Thing is we're different people. I have my reasons I came back to faith. I can share them if you'd like but do realize it isn't going to be easy for me.


I have met atheists who not only acknowledge spirituality, but profess it because they recognize it is another aspect and dimension to who we are, and thus it is part of our overall health.

Can I help you change? That depends. You say you want to, but you can't.
With all due respect: Are you even sure you have any idea what you want?

Before you can know what you want, do you even know yourself? How can you be sure? These are things you can answer to me if you want but you need to ask yourself and answer them for yourself. Nobody else can make you believe anything.

I want to help you by encouraging you, because I myself am seeking encouragement in this point in my life. In order to do that, you have to meet me halfway.

No, I do not have all the answers to any questions you might ask.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-04-2013, 06:32 AM   #46
Me_Who_Else
Rookie
 
Me_Who_Else's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderis View Post
But how can something never have started?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing
Me_Who_Else is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-04-2013, 11:27 AM   #47
Alexrd
Senior Member
 
Alexrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 2,094
Current Game: Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 HD
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me_Who_Else View Post
Even Wikipedia showcases the main flaw of that book:

"use of the term nothing to refer to a quantum vacuum"

Quantum vacuum is not nothing.



Star Wars: In Concert - Lisbon - Some pictures of the exhibition accompanying the event.
Alexrd is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-05-2013, 05:10 PM   #48
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,778
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Exactly...the only question you really are left with is what is it that always was and didn't need some kind of origin......God or matter/energy.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-05-2013, 10:26 PM   #49
Darth Avlectus
Any other dumb remarks?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Driving a garbage truck
Posts: 4,228
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
@Canderis: I'm curious to know your sense of self. This thread is about you afterall. So please give me an idea how you see yourself. I ask because while repeatable results and scientific soundness are one thing, ultimately YOU are the only truth you actually know. Nobody else can know what you know like you know it. Life is about your journey to find the truth for yourself.

Nobody and nothing can make you believe in anything, or disbelieve for that matter. I think your concerns are very real.


@ above posts: I don't know if "Super Uniformity" is what this was called, but there was a position out there which states: What is happening has always happened and will always happen. Some see this as a means to explain away supernatural, others merely see it as too similar to God having always existed thus invalid and dismissible as such.

Theories of Energy transfer IMO is ironically not all that different from reincarnation--in fact I joke it is the atheist version of reincarnation.



Lastly:
This isn't so much a reply to J7 as it's reading over J7's post I see something I have to reply to:
Quote:
by Bertrand Russell,
“I think all the great religions of the world-Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and Communism-both untrue and harmful. It is evident as a matter of logic that, since they disagree, not more than one of them can be true” preface to 'Why I am not a Christian', emphasis [J7's]
Curious Judaism, Shintoism, Zen, and others (like political beliefs) didn't make it onto that list.

Perhaps Buddhism has qualities which rival religiosity which make it understandable, but the statement of it being a religion is incorrect. It is a philosophy and a way of life, and is compatible (or at least can be) with religions. Both objectively and in my personal experience, Buddhists don't worship him as a God, but rather Bhudda means 'elightened one' or 'one with highest enlightenment'.

There have been Christian and Moslem Samurai.
Shaolin teachings originally came from Bhuddist monks, their ways are compatible with religions like Christianity and Moslem too.

Zen, like Buddhism, is much the same in that regard. It's (in summary) about balance and concerns itself with the actual, with what is.

And don't forget atheists can practice Buddhism and Zen as well!

Also, anyone who thinks Buddhism is just all about peace and pacifism are very very naive about just what extremes the Yin-Yang covers. I'd suggest a trip to visit the world tree in person--then come back and talk about it. I'll just leave it at that.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-05-2013, 10:52 PM   #50
Canderis
Mercenary
 
Canderis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Unknown
Posts: 2,497
Current Game: Skyrim
Veteran Modder Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Avlectus View Post
@Canderis: I'm curious to know your sense of self. This thread is about you afterall. So please give me an idea how you see yourself. I ask because while repeatable results and scientific soundness are one thing, ultimately YOU are the only truth you actually know. Nobody else can know what you know like you know it. Life is about your journey to find the truth for yourself.

Nobody and nothing can make you believe in anything, or disbelieve for that matter. I think your concerns are very real.
When I created this thread I was in a very different mindset than I am in now. I was actually quite depressed and it caused me to think about this subject a lot. Since then I have not been depressed really, but the though still comes to mind often. Saying death is my greatest fear would be a false statement, my biggest fear is 'nothing'. That 'nothing' is what follows death. I'm afraid of that because it is a concept my Mind cannot grasp, what is true nothingness.

This is all I know to say to answer that question, but I not afraid to say more. I'm just not sure what other information about myself is needed for this conversation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Avlectus View Post
Lastly:
This isn't so much a reply to J7 as it's reading over J7's post I see something I have to reply to:


Curious Judaism, Shintoism, Zen, and others (like political beliefs) didn't make it onto that list.

Perhaps Buddhism has qualities which rival religiosity which make it understandable, but the statement of it being a religion is incorrect. It is a philosophy and a way of life, and is compatible (or at least can be) with religions. Both objectively and in my personal experience, Buddhists don't worship him as a God, but rather Bhudda means 'elightened one' or 'one with highest enlightenment'.

There have been Christian and Moslem Samurai.
Shaolin teachings originally came from Bhuddist monks, their ways are compatible with religions like Christianity and Moslem too.

Zen, like Buddhism, is much the same in that regard. It's (in summary) about balance and concerns itself with the actual, with what is.

And don't forget atheists can practice Buddhism and Zen as well!

Also, anyone who thinks Buddhism is just all about peace and pacifism are very very naive about just what extremes the Yin-Yang covers. I'd suggest a trip to visit the world tree in person--then come back and talk about it. I'll just leave it at that.
May I ask, are you buddhist?




Canderis is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 11-06-2013, 12:16 AM   #51
Darth Avlectus
Any other dumb remarks?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Driving a garbage truck
Posts: 4,228
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderis View Post
This is all I know to say to answer that question, but I not afraid to say more. I'm just not sure what other information about myself is needed for this conversation.
Look to the last post I made for reference:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Avlectus View Post

Quote:
Alright. I'm an atheist. And I hate it. The most frightening thought to me is that when we die, that's it. I can't imagine what true nothing is like. I just cannot grasp it. But unfortunately, because of how my mind works, that is what I believe happens when we die.
Perhaps another way of looking at it is that you are left unsatisfied with what you know and realize with harsh reality, intellect, fact? If that was the end-all-be-all, then it would be enough. But it isn't the end-all-be-all.

Quote:
I really wish I could believe in something different, a religion or something, just to help make the end a little less scary, but I can't just believe in something to believe in something. I can't do it. I could say I do, but then there's still that thought hidden behind the believing exterior. It's really hard to have a positive look on life and think like this. Does anyone else feel the same way? Can anyone help me change my belief?
Well, I've been in a similar place. While I cannot say I completely believe everything in religion, I relaxed my disbelief in the idea there's something more to reality. See, I used to automatically shut it out just because. Then I came to the realization that I was just as strict and lacking for lenience as some theists out there. Now I like to think I'm a happy medium. Highly intellectual folk may think me whacky, highly religious folk may call me heretic. I am what I am.

Thing is we're different people. I have my reasons I came back to faith. I can share them if you'd like but do realize it isn't going to be easy for me.

I have met atheists who not only acknowledge spirituality, but profess it because they recognize it is another aspect and dimension to who we are, and thus it is part of our overall health.

Can I help you change? That depends. You say you want to, but you can't.
With all due respect: Are you even sure you have any idea what you want?

Before you can know what you want, do you even know yourself? How can you be sure? These are things you can answer to me if you want but you need to ask yourself and answer them for yourself. Nobody else can make you believe anything.

I want to help you by encouraging you, because I myself am seeking encouragement in this point in my life. In order to do that, you have to meet me halfway.

No, I do not have all the answers to any questions you might ask.
I'd like to add: though my reasons for returning to faith are my own, I doubt they'd be of much help to you. Your life is you, not me.

Yes I may faithfully 'believe' something but honestly at the end of the day I probably don't know any more than you do (Well, tested against objective standards anyway!)--I can only presume. We can neither prove nor disprove a negative.

Facts: We all die. We don't know what happens afterward.

I'm not going to pretend some bull**** like I have answers for you what happens after, be it through science or mysticism. But I can try to help you see this in a different way. What is important here is why you see things in life the way you do. Much of the reason for that, possibly, is how you view yourself.

Life is about the journey. In the end are you going to be proud to have lived or not?

Quote:
May I ask, are you buddhist?
You may ask, and no I am not. More or less am freelance/non denominational Christian-probably have more in common with an agnostic. However, I'm not going to impose upon you. You've probably had more than your fair share of THAT--am I right?

I am studying and practicing the philosophy of Shaolin. If possible I want to help you at least get a perspective on what you can control and change in your own life.

Why? Not because I think I can be some invincible badass like Jet Lee or something. Simply because at 29 I need to learn
1) new ways to help myself and
2) to feel encouraged in order to better self-motivate.

The best way I can do that is to help others and to encourage others. Like yourself. So if you do not mind, how 'bout we start from the above quoted post?
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > Hot Topics > Wanting a reason to believe

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:54 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.