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Old 03-02-2002, 04:25 AM   #41
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Listen the whole point of force rage is how it is like luke that is all he had boiling anger come to that point so he went into the rage and became stronger and faster with his attacks, where as usuallly he couldn't overcome vader on strength, that been obvious up to that point.
However Vadar surprised at the anger that Luke had which made the force flow through him with strength through his instense emotions thew him into the rage and caused him to win.


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Old 03-02-2002, 05:05 AM   #42
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<font color=cbcbff> Sort of looked to me as though Vader lost because he was a crippled old man in an iron lung. But that could just be me. Luke's anger mainly caused him to attack Vader. And yes, fiercly. I don't think Luke was being augmented by the force any more than usual, though. Vader's suit gave him several times the strength of a normal human, even with the force, Luke's physical strength would have been no match for his. I'm just nitpicking though, I think that's about the best example of it in the movies.
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Old 03-02-2002, 08:51 AM   #43
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Clearly Luke was drawing on the power of the Dark Side when he defeated Vader. Luke was angry and agressive - a no-no for a Jedi. When Luke got Vader on the ground and helpless, Luke looked totally pi$$ed. This was not the calm and serene Jedi that he had been trained to be - this was the pure Dark Side. But then, he remembered his training, calmed down, and the rest is history. This seems fairly obvious to me.


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Old 03-04-2002, 03:04 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vagabond
Clearly Luke was drawing on the power of the Dark Side when he defeated Vader. Luke was angry and agressive - a no-no for a Jedi. When Luke got Vader on the ground and helpless, Luke looked totally pi$$ed. This was not the calm and serene Jedi that he had been trained to be - this was the pure Dark Side. But then, he remembered his training, calmed down, and the rest is history. This seems fairly obvious to me.

Thanks for agreeing with me...in your own words


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Old 03-04-2002, 10:30 AM   #45
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First up, Vagabond and Moses, great to see guys who get Starwars posting.

(though being a Vader fan I prefer to think that it was Vader's conflicting emotions about his son that allowed a twerp who was essentially a whiney farmboy to beat him)

Next up, back to rage, from what I gather it is an enhanced version of force speed, presumably drawing on all your hate and anger to push your body to the limits, ignoring fatigue and minor flesh wounds (like losing a limb!) while you concentrate on dismembering your puny opponent. As such it provides positive multipliers (possibly dependent on star level if they don't adopt the JK approach to 'elite' force powers) to speed and damage dished out, while also applying negative modifiers to damage you receive. At the end of the power you suffer a period of exhaustion in which you are very vunerable (everything the darkside gives it takes back with interest).


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Old 03-04-2002, 10:51 AM   #46
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I'm not saying Vader lost merely becuase of mixed emotions... I don't mean Vader was day dreaming, so he just lost merely by chance...

As you said, Vag, he was ment to be defeated by Luke for the reasons you mentioned, however, the force didn't make Luke stop from killing Vader, but he choose to, so in a sense, Luke both choose his destiny, and was fulfilling what he had been made for.

In the same sense, Vader lost to Luke (and defeated the emporer) because he was ment to, but also he did so because he choose to. If Vader was just out for blood with Luke, he would've wiped the floor with him... But instead, he felt love for Luke and couldn't bring himself to kill him. So in the same sense as above, Vader was ment to be defeated by Luke, but also choose it by his own power...

Gee... I feel so silly debating the Star WArs mythos... Maybe I haven't completed my training into the relm of SW geekdom .
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Old 03-04-2002, 12:06 PM   #47
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I agree, RoyalGuard and Silent_Thunder, Vader did have some conflict, contrary to his assurances to the Emperor. And although this played some small part into his inevitable defeat at the hands of Luke, it was Luke's rage with the Dark Side that gave him the power to bring Vader to his knees. Yet, it was also Luke's love for his father, and the careful guidance of Obi-Wan and Yoda, that kept Luke from killing his father.

Overall, in the context of this thread, I think it's the Force Rage that played the most significant part of Luke's defeat of Vader.


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Old 03-04-2002, 12:07 PM   #48
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<font color=cbcbff> oooooh. Not yet. The <i>forum</i>. You must confront <i>the forum</i>! Then, only then, a geek will you be.
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Old 03-04-2002, 12:13 PM   #49
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"oooooh. Not yet. The forum. You must confront the forum! Then, only then, a geek will you be."

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