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Old 04-11-2002, 03:03 PM   #121
FWB
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Cheating, aka hacking, is the manipulation of a game's files/code to give an advantage to the cheater. Strafe-Jumping is a bug exploit. The fact that you can even confuse the two is laughable. Bugs can be exploited by everyone without altering the game in any way.
Go to a dictionary and look the word "cheating" up. You'll see it has no reference to hacking. I fear you need to take an English class.

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And, with your insistance that JO conform to your idea of what "Star wars should be about," you are making it clear exactly how much of a "fanboy" you are.
If that is what you think, fine, I couldn't care less. I still maintain it conforms to the genre as best it can.

Quote:
Oh please, you wouldn't even BE here complaining about bunny-hopping if you were only in it for the gameplay. No, you're here ranting about how evil it is, because you want to win, but can't, and bunny-hopping is your excuse of the day.
Again putting words into my mouth. You sure love to do that. I don't have a problem winning, and I certainly don't have a problem losing. It is clear I'm not the only one who feels bunny-hopping is not playing the game in the right spirit. Don't try coming up with some lame excuse because we disagree on a matter.

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I don't think you truly understand the definition of irony, my friend. And no, you can't extract it from any Alanis Morissette songs.
I need to spell it out to you? By dismissing those calls that ask for the "bug" to be removed you are imposing your view of how the game should be played. It works both ways, so I wouldn't try and bring that argument up.

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Good, since it wasn't a question, but a statement. Now here's a question you haven't answered, regarding your stance on gun-users. Do you wish gun-users to be disempowered by having their Force removed in FFAs? It certainly seemed that way in your previous post.
Yes, I would support that, but I will not make an issue of it because it fits in either way into the spirit of Star Wars. Bunny-hopping, on the other hand, doesn't. On top of which... but again you seem to enjoy ignoring my posts... it is unbalancing. It nulls force speed. That was, in fact, my main concern.

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Defending what "settings" exactly? Are you referring to the bunny-hopping? As I recall, I stated twice that "It's irrelevant to me." It's irrelevant to me, because I have better things to do than to complain about it. And people who do complain about it, have ulterior motives for doing so.
If you find it so irrelevant, why are you here? If you don't care what happens, why are you even discussing it? I think you're just looking for an argument sicne you have nothing better to do.

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What I have defended, and do defend, is the right of those who go onto a FF guns FFA server to use both Force powers and guns.
That is not part of the topic. Read the thread title, please.

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lol, unlike you my primary concern for the game is not whether Jedi Outcast "conforms to the Star Wars universe." Now you're really sounding like a fanboy.
The name calling continues. It is easy to spot weak arguments. They resort to such childish resources. Sigh.

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Perhaps you're unaware that Jedi Outcast is... Shock horror - a game. Games are fun, but they also have winners and losers. Without a goal to accomplish, a game is no longer a game. And why do people want to win? Because winning is the goal of the game. Whoever reaches that goal first, gets a buzz.
You're missing the point. There's a difference between those who aim for a goal and those who will do whatever they can to reach it, even if it involves moving outside the spirit of the game.

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Yes, I enjoy winning, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't. But somehow, I don't think I'm the one obsessed with it... Those who complain about the way in which others win a game, do so because they wished to win in his/her stead, and become obsessed.
A very poor deduction. It is so sad that you are incapable of appreciating the fact that some people simply don't care about winning. You may think it is everything, but believe it or not, many do not.

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As I said previously, people who are so vehement about such bugs, tend to be the ones who cry the most sour grapes while losing.
So spawnkilling is alright? Base-raping is fine? Using the skin which only has two arms is ok too?

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It's obvious to me that you have neither the interest in, nor the dedication to JO to become one of the so called "elite."
The first bit of sense you've made. 100% right. I simply don't have the time to play video games that much. But from the sounds of things, I wouldn't want to be part of the "elite", if all they do is tell you to shut-up, refer to you as a "fanboy" and keep calling you a poor loser. The correlation continues...
I get no excitement from being called a good player in a game (I mean, come on, it is all down to hand/eye co-ordination, not something I really care about). The only reason I enjoy any such remark is because it highlights the fact that I've finally found a server full of "nice" people.

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And that would be fine, if you weren't so bitter. However, your obsessive insistance that JO conform rigidly to the alleged rules of the Star Wars universe, show a level of commitment to Star Wars that makes the "busy outside" and "enjoying the sunshine" portions a little too hard to stomach.
lol. I also get pissed when Hollywood distorts history in its films. I didn't start the thread, someone else did. I've voiced my opinion and will continue to do so. I know there's a culture that is fine to sit back and not say a word when they think something out of place (even worse are the guys telling you to shut up), but I'm not going to be part of it. Progress would never be made. I'm sure Raven are keen to hear what people are thinking. The thread was here, so I posted. Aprt from which, it takes me all of 5 mins to post a message. I don't know, maybe you require much longer for your replies, but I hardly find it time consuming, and I'm certainly not thinking about it other than when I read the forum messages.

My ask what you're obsession with posting here is then, other than telling us to shut up?

Last edited by FWB; 04-11-2002 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 04:53 PM   #122
hughJ
 
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"Go to a dictionary and look the word "cheating" up. You'll see it has no reference to hacking"

'hacking' (external/modified game code to alter game mechanics) is about the only thing you can classify, without a shadow of a doubt, as "cheating" in online multiplayer games.. some game bugs are accepted, some are not.. these such things fall under a 'preference' category, as whether they are accepted or not can vary from league to league, or server to server... however convenient it may be to fall back on the "look it up in the dictionary" response, the context obviously doesn't relate to every given situation, including this one...

if I looked 'hacking' up in the dictionary, its definition would fall pretty closely to that of cfg modification, scripting, and other such things that aren't necessarily 'bad'... so it's kinda a moot point to bring dictionary definitions into this..
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Old 04-11-2002, 05:17 PM   #123
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Strafe-jumping, or bunnyhopping, is in no way a cheat. It is a coded part of the game, there for the advantage of canny users. If the developers had thought of it as a cheat, it would have been removed - it has been around and known about in the Quake3 engine (purposely) for a long time now. Hey, its not even unrealistic - in a game where you can force jump 8 times normal height, bunnyhopping fits in well in my opinion. Don't complain about people using it to get away from you - learn how to do it, and catch up!
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Old 04-11-2002, 06:02 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by 70-228
PS. Jiro Kage I don't know where you got the idea that bunny hopping is only bunny hopping if started with a rocket powered speed up. It's always just been the another term for strafe jumping. And a usefull one too as it's clearer to describe what it does than how to do it.

You lost the plot buddy, and don't know your "gaming history". Back when this whole thing was learned about, you didn't strafe to catch the speed. It was known as bunny hopping then, because obviously, why would you say strafe jumping when you don't use strafe at all? when Q3 came on the scene and it got big (here I could be wrong - dunno how Q2 fits in it, but from WF I don't remember it) people started referring to it as strafe jumping. Therefore, some of us who still play TF/MTF refer to it as "bunny hopping" to differentiate the two styles of speeding up.

Besides that, bunny hopping is a LOT faster than strafe jumping could ever hope to be.


-- Jiro Kage
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Old 04-11-2002, 06:38 PM   #125
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Quote:
Go to a dictionary and look the word "cheating" up.
Certainly I shall! The Collins English Dictionary definition of cheat:

"Cheat vb 1. to deceive or practice deceit, esp. for one's own gain; trick or swindle (someone). 2. (intr.) to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game of cards."

Oh, and here's Dictionary.com's definition:

"cheat: v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats v. tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle - To deprive by trickery; defraud
To mislead; fool - To elude; escape. v. intr. To act dishonestly; practice fraud. -To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards. - Informal. To be unfaithful: cheat on a spouse."

Now why don't you tell me how the word "cheating" applies to strafe-jumping? Hmm? Let's see: "To violate rules"? No, there is no rule saying that: "strafe-jumping in CTY games is banned and outlawed." Well, only if it's you who's made up the rules.

No, strafe-jumping is a bug exploit.

Quote:
You'll see it has no reference to hacking.
Neither do the definitions contain any reference to "Bunny-Hopping." Thanks for proving my point so concisely, bunny-hopping is not cheating, and your belief that it IS cheating, is wrong.

In a game, when someone accuses one of cheating, they are accusing one of hacking the game. This is a normal online gaming link, and if you are unaware of it, then you truly have very little gaming experience.

Quote:
I fear you need to take an English class.
Oh, how wonderfully condescending of you, my little smickering dumpling! What next? Would you dazzle us with the remainder of your enormous repertoire of snide gibberish?

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I certainly don't have a problem losing.
I very much doubt that you find losing difficult in any way, shape or form.

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I'm not the only one who feels bunny-hopping is not playing the game in the right spirit.
Such an opinion is bound to attract many followers, to be sure. This does not make your opinion of what the "right spirit" is, the correct one. Just so you know. Certainly, get a petition together and ask Raven to remove the strafe-jumping capability, if you wish to, and good luck to you. But don't fall into the trap of believing yourself to be the sole arbiter of Star-Warsyness on the planet Earth. Nor should you fall into the trap of believing that your idea of what a Star Wars game should be about, is important in any respect.

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By dismissing those calls that ask for the "bug" to be removed you are imposing your view of how the game should be played. It works both ways, so I wouldn't try and bring that argument up.
Ahh but you are not me, a fact which I am eternally grateful for. Irony is, and I quote once again from Collins: "The humorous or mildly sarcastic use of words to imply the opposite of what they normally mean." or: "incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is," So if I were to say that your arguments are adult, well-formed and based around factual ideas rather than your own self-interests, I would be using irony.

What you MAY be trying to accuse me of, is being a hypocrite... which would also be nonsense. You are the one talking about changing the basic structure of the game to suit you. The fact that I am pointing out your self-interested motives in this pursuit, is honest and forthright... anything but hypocritical.

Also, I have never said that bunny-hopping is a good thing, in fact, I have said that it is irrelevant to me. You insist on implying that I am defending bunny-hopping in some way, when I have made it plain that I don't give two figs whether it's in or out.

Now, I asked: "Do you wish gun-users to be disempowered by having their Force removed in FFAs?" You have answered:

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Yes, I would support that
So! You would support the taking away of Force Powers from gunners. This says it all. You are only interested in obtaining a larger advantage for yourself in a game, because you have not the stomach to learn how to use a gun, yet you wish to play on guns servers. Petty. You would support the act of spoiling the game for gunners.

If you were truly unconcerned over whether you won games or not, you would not support the crippling of innocent gunners in this manner, because whether they won or not, would be irrelevant to you. I submit that it is painfully obvious that you wish to tailor the game to suit YOU, in order that you might stand a chance of winning more often. All your assertions that you "do not care" about winning, are bunkum and nonsense.

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why are you here? If you don't care what happens, why are you even discussing it?
I initially responded to TDS' comments concerning "gun-whoring," and since then, I have been replying to your less than mature comments, notably your opinion that your view of what JO should be like, is the correct one. An opinion in which, you are painfully mistaken. You need to accept that gunners should, and do play the game while using Force powers. You also need to accept that after bunny-hopping, you'll probably find something else to complain about, because the game will never live up to your gargantuan expectations of how truly "Star-Warsy" it should be.

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That is not part of the topic. Read the thread title, please.
Shouldn't I go take my English class first, just to make sure I'm prepared?

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It is so sad that you are incapable of appreciating the fact that some people simply don't care about winning. You may think it is everything, but believe it or not, many do not.
Oh I'm quite sure that there are some people who don't give a hoot about winning. You however, are not among them. As for me, I like to think that I make a bit of an effort to get better at the game every time I play, which is one way I get my fun from the game. To get better at the game, one must learn to accept defeat AND victory as part of the learning process. Thus, I care less about individual victories and defeats than your average player, and compared to you? Well, let's just say compared to an obsessive, I'm a positive picture of serenity.

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I've voiced my opinion and will continue to do so
Oh joy.

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I know there's a culture that is fine to sit back and not say a word when they think something out of place (even worse are the guys telling you to shut up), but I'm not going to be part of it. Progress would never be made.
Oh get off your crusading horse, the sheen of your armour dazzles mine eyes. Here you go again, your opinion is the right one, you're the spokesman for a legion of right-thinking people, you're the knight who'll free the shackled sabreing denizens of Antibunnyhopland.

Let's make this plain and clear:

You've bought the game.

You go online.

People annoy and defeat you by using guns with force, and bunny-hopping away from you.

Instead of trying to learn tactics that counteract these situations, (and there are ALWAYS such tactics, tactics which may make bunny-hopping entirely useless as a practice, negating the need to have it removed) in less than two weeks after the official release date, before people have even had a CHANCE to get to know the game, and certainly before you've learned much about it yourself, you would like to have force powers taken away from gunners, and have strafe-jumping removed.

Well that's fine. Premature, but still, your choice. Petition Raven about it, see what they say.

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So spawnkilling is alright? Base-raping is fine? Using the skin which only has two arms is ok too?
Well, I personally don't have any trouble defeating the people who have attempted such tactics when I was present. But if you want the things removed or disabled, petition Raven.

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My ask what you're obsession with posting here is then, other than telling us to shut up?
Who did you say needed "to take an English class?"

Well, all grammar (or lack of it) aside, I post here to air my views. Your views and mine appear to be in conflict, so a debate has emerged. Questions have been asked, statements made. I continue posting, to respond to such statements and answer such questions. There's your answer.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 04-11-2002, 06:42 PM   #126
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Quote:
You're obviously not happy with the game, since you want to abuse a bug in the engine
I'm very happy with the game, actually

One last time, and the last thing I say on this particular topic...

Strafe jumping does NOT null force speed - without speed strafe jumping I can catch a strafe jumper with no problems whatsoever.

me out.


... ¬¬
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:02 PM   #127
FWB
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Now why don't you tell me how the word "cheating" applies to strafe-jumping? Hmm? Let's see: "To violate rules"? No, there is no rule saying that: "strafe-jumping in CTY games is banned and outlawed." Well, only if it's you who's made up the rules.
So what if there is a bug that allows you to become invisible? Is that not cheating? Just because it is part of the system does not mean it can by definition, not be cheating. That is why I brought it up. There is no black and white line on cheating, though you seem to think it exists. As for bunny-hopping, well I think it is cheating. You seem to be pissed off at this notion, but it won't stop me saying so. The thread is about it. If you are incapable of keeping on track with the topic then I suggest you create another thread where you can throw your insults (through all my time online I've amazed that people continue to believe they have any impact) around.

It also... I'll say it again... imbalances the game. The force speed is of no use. I notice you've avoided this issue throughout the entire "debate".

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Neither do the definitions contain any reference to "Bunny-Hopping." Thanks for proving my point so concisely, bunny-hopping is not cheating, and your belief that it IS cheating, is wrong.
By the same argument neither is an aim-bot cheating.

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Oh, how wonderfully condescending of you, my little smickering dumpling! What next? Would you dazzle us with the remainder of your enormous repertoire of snide gibberish?
Hey, if you see something condescending there, well then that's your problem. Perhaps it is something inside of you you should investigate.

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Nor should you fall into the trap of believing that your idea of what a Star Wars game should be about, is important in any respect.
I hope you realise the same of your's. I have not once denied the fact that it forces people to play the game a certain way, but you seem to be blind to the fact that any support of it does the same.

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Ahh but you are not me, a fact which I am eternally grateful for. Irony is, and I quote once again from Collins: "The humorous or mildly sarcastic use of words to imply the opposite of what they normally mean." or: "incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is," So if I were to say that your arguments are adult, well-formed and based around factual ideas rather than your own self-interests, I would be using irony.
Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person:

Irony: Use of language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned.

Once again, I suggest you take an English lesson... perhaps an eye-test would be better.

Quote:
So! You would support the taking away of Force Powers from gunners. This says it all. You are only interested in obtaining a larger advantage for yourself in a game, because you have not the stomach to learn how to use a gun, yet you wish to play on guns servers. Petty. You would support the act of spoiling the game for gunners.
I've asked you to do this a number of times, but you obviously don't understand it... please read my posts. If you had, you'd actually see I prefer using the guns. This rest of your comments regarding this are pointless since you've assumed wrongly.

As for the removal of force powers... once again you don't read my posts. I clearly stated it was from a reply to an e-mail someone sent to Raven (it is in the forum if you want to look). The developers themselves believe there is an imbalance here. I support it. Please, do your research before even beginning to design a response.

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Oh I'm quite sure that there are some people who don't give a hoot about winning. You however, are not among them.
Thanks for telling me what I am.

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Well, let's just say compared to an obsessive, I'm a positive picture of serenity.
Says the guy who has also dedicated such long posts to this.

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Well, all grammar (or lack of it) aside, I post here to air my views. Your views and mine appear to be in conflict, so a debate has emerged.
Well it seemed like a debate until you resorted to such childish comments. Why is it so many individuals have to resort to such language? The topic was still in focus until you decided to move it with comments on "fanboys" and "obsession". I'm more and more convinced that everyone's a bully on the internet.

Last edited by FWB; 04-11-2002 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:03 PM   #128
70-228
 
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You lost the plot buddy, and don't know your "gaming history"
If you can tell me what the Ziggurat cheat was then I'll believe you know "gaming history"
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:13 PM   #129
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Whew! Flames getting a bit hot in this thread!

Everybody calm down! It is after all just a game. This is after all an Internet forum and lets face it not everyone is going to agree with one another.

I think we've found some folks here who don't. I'm not saying hug and make up just tone it down a bit and try not to attack one another. Differing opinions are what makes the Internet great, not flame wars.


/me runs in case any flames shoot my way.


The contractors on the second Death Star knew the risks when they took the job. All contractors have to take these things into consideration when they take a job--Clerks
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:28 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by G-Ninja
Hey, its not even unrealistic - in a game where you can force jump 8 times normal height, bunnyhopping fits in well in my opinion.
Only one problem with saying that G-Ninja - Force jumping is a deliberate part of the game, and it's a part of the SW Universe. Bunny hopping is not.


I am Obi-Cyph.
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:30 PM   #131
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Originally posted by Mafia_Jabba
-conclusion....Join a server w/ rules setup...thats the end i guess
seeing as how i doubt it will be removed, this will be the only option in the end ...


i still am not completely sold on the idea that it is soo horrible, and i definately don't agree with it, i guess im in the middle ...
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:21 PM   #132
Spider AL
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So what if there is a bug that allows you to become invisible? Is that not cheating?
No my son, if it comes with the game, ready and able, it's a bug. It occurs to me that you're confusing "cheat" with "cheap." Yes, there's only one letter's difference, but you really should try your best to spot these things.

If you want a bug to be removed, petition Raven. Whining at me, does you no good on that front. But it's a vaguely amusing distraction from the humdrum world around us for a few minutes a day. For that, I thank you wholeheartedly.

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As for bunny-hopping, well I think it is cheating. You seem to be pissed off at this notion, but it won't stop me saying so.
You could scream it to the high heavens mate, doesn't make your opinion any less flawed. A bug is a bug, if you don't agree with it, fine. Petition Raven. But frankly, all this complaining is just sour grapes, and the only "pissed off" person in this room, is you.

You said that bunny-hopping:

Quote:
imbalances the game. The force speed is of no use. I notice you've avoided this issue throughout the entire "debate".
As a matter of fact, I've addressed it several times. I have stated, and will again, that bunny-hopping can carry on forever, or it can stop today, and either way it will make no difference to me. I simply don't care about bunny-hoppers, no more than I care about people using Force Speed, or the Strong stance, or the Disruptor. There are ways of taking them out, good teamwork in CTY one example. If you can't find someone to play with you as a team on a server,.. well, go find someone.

On a side note, Force Speed has uses other than increasing forward speed, which you're obviously unaware of, and I'm not going to disadvantage your righteous opponents by informing you of them. You'd probably try to have them removed, anyway.

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By the same argument neither is an aim-bot cheating.
If I'm not mistaken, knowing comfortably little about cheating methods, a Quake 3 aimbot usually must be added to your system to work, having been downloaded or compiled by you. Therefore, it is a cheat. Strafe jumping is a bug, like Supergrip was in JK. You could do it without altering your game. If there were an unintentional Quake aimbot that could be activated "out of the box" as it were, then it would be defined as a bug, and it would be the choice of the community whether to petition Id to remove it. Having said that, bugs are available to be exploited by everyone, so it's up to the individual concience of each player to choose. I personally never touch bugs.

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if you see something condescending there, well then that's your problem.
Actually being condescending is your problem. One of your problems. One of your many problems.

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I have not once denied the fact that it forces people to play the game a certain way, but you seem to be blind to the fact that any support of it does the same.
And who's supporting bunny-hopping, other than your imaginary friend? For the last time, hopefully, I don't give a hoot about bunny-hopping. I care about guns with Force being preserved. Something, you wish to destroy. Shame on you.

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Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person: Irony: Use of language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned.
And your source for that definition? I provided mine, or have you never compiled a list of sources/bibliography?

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Once again, I suggest you take an English lesson... perhaps an eye-test would be better.
Aww "I wub ur widdiw insuwts." For someone with your obvious "flair" for grammar, you bandy the English lesson thing around a little too freely. But you bandy everything around too freely, from your tenuous opinions to your fundamentally flawed ideals.

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My ask what you're obsession with posting here is then,
"Exqueez my!" who was your English tutor then, Jar-Jar Binks?

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The developers themselves believe there is an imbalance here. I support it.
Ahh so whatever the developers decide is the "right thing," is that what your argument hangs on?

Then... what about the fact that they left bunny-hopping in? That doesn't seem to have pleased you too well.

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it seemed like a debate until you resorted to such childish comments.
Now that's hypocritical. (Not ironic.) Childish comments, like... ohhh "you need to take an English class," or "Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person?" Physician, heal thyself.

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Thanks for telling me what I am.
Someone has to mate, otherwise you'd just be obliviously unpleasant.

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I'm more and more convinced that everyone's a bully on the internet.
lol I'm a bully? You're the one who's trying to force his view of what JO should be like onto the entire Outcast playing public. Your hypocrisy stuns me friend. Either you're intentionally selfish, or... god knows. Good luck in your petition to Raven... You'll need it.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 04-11-2002, 09:40 PM   #133
hughJ
 
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"what about the fact that they left bunny-hopping in?"

considering we're talking about Raven here.. whom have made more Quake-engine adaptions than I can count (every single Quake having some form of bunnyhopping/strafejumping) I guess the (honest) question remains, why didn't they remove it?

it's been able to be dealt with in other games through various methods.. why not here?

Last edited by hughJ; 04-11-2002 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 10:08 PM   #134
Zodiac
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fyunch Click
Whew! Flames getting a bit hot in this thread!
Everybody calm down! It is after all just a game. This is after all an Internet forum and lets face it not everyone is going to agree with one another.
I think we've found some folks here who don't. I'm not saying hug and make up just tone it down a bit and try not to attack one another. Differing opinions are what makes the Internet great, not flame wars.
/me runs in case any flames shoot my way.
Exactly!! All this bickering is no good at all:
Will some anti-bunny-hop person convince a bunnyhopper to stop doing it by posting a lot on these boards? NO
Will a bunnyhopper convince a anti-hopper it's all good an legit? NO
I haven't seen anybody yet who said: "oh ok, you're so right, all your posts have convinced me that bunnyhopping IS good/bad!".

This is the internet, I've seen so many discussions on many forums, always one group who's against something, and one group who is for something. And it always ends up with one group who's against something, and one group who is for something.

So just... stay objective.. stop the personal insults.. RavenSoft's the only one who can do anything about it, so address your points to Raven, and don't flame personal insults at some dude behind his pc.

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Old 04-11-2002, 10:08 PM   #135
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I think we may have accidentally stumbled upon the third topic beyond religion and politics that its just plain pointless to debate over.....bunny hopping

I think everyone has said their piece, and each additional post seems more like a waste of bandwidth. I smell a closed thread in the air....

TDS
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Old 04-12-2002, 01:03 AM   #136
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Quote:
Will some anti-bunny-hop person convince a bunnyhopper to stop doing it by posting a lot on these boards? NO
Actually once upon a time I was a pro bunny! That was quite a few years ago though. However it was threads like these combined with the effect it had on one of my favourite games that changed my mind. Basically the game I like was dying when a few people rediscovered strafing and within months the game was dead.

These threads "can" open people's eyes. However most don't actually reveal the fact as it can be an ego bruising experience to admit when you're wrong.
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Old 04-12-2002, 03:02 AM   #137
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Well, its like I said... just agree to not play together and where will the problems lie? If you don't like bunny-hoppers don't play with them.... and vice versa ... if you don't like each other then avoid playing against each other....damn.

This thread is like the wars that have been going on in the middle east for centuries. They've been going at it for so long with so many casualties that neither side will give up the ghost just out of sheer spite and pride. They don't even know what they're fighting about now and Im not sure I do either... is the arguement about strafe-jumping, winners vs. losers, guns and the Force or is it about grammar? Or is it about whos pen15 is bigger?

I forget.


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-12-2002, 06:17 AM   #138
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>No my son, if it comes with the game, ready and able, it's a bug. It occurs to me that you're confusing "cheat" with "cheap."<

ah, so if you enter helpusobi 1 youre not activating the cheats but youre exploiting a bug? if you enter CHEAT-codes in any game youre only using a bug?
that definition is too simple to work and though i dont agree 100% with someone saying bug exploiting is cheating i agree with that a lot more than 'hey, its in the game so its fair to use it'.

it's quite simple:
-someone is using it and you dont like it: vote for a kick and see if the others share that opinion or leave the game
-you are using it and get kicked: dont be surprised


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"...at least, he fails to appreciate Star Wars, which is a failing of intelligence in my opinion" - Jeanne Cavelos
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Old 04-12-2002, 06:36 AM   #139
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Bunnyhoppers -- bug, cheat, legit, whatever you want to call it -- do you at least concede this, and only this: if you saw Luke bunnyhopping in Star Wars fighting Vader, would you think it was retarded-looking?

You're playing a Star Wars game. Let's say the developers were on crack and added an old-style tommy gun from the '30s. But it worked pretty well. Would you use it with no complaints, or would you say "it works great, but... I don't know what it's doing here."
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Old 04-12-2002, 09:48 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL

If you want a bug to be removed, petition Raven. Whining at me, does you no good on that front. But it's a vaguely amusing distraction from the humdrum world around us for a few minutes a day. For that, I thank you wholeheartedly.
I dread to think how boring your life might be that you get kicks from this.

Quote:
You could scream it to the high heavens mate, doesn't make your opinion any less flawed.
My, what an open-minded person you are.

Quote:
And your source for that definition? I provided mine, or have you never compiled a list of sources/bibliography?
I would have thought the eye-sight comment would have given that away. The same source as yours... a dictionary, the Oxford dictionary to be precise. But it appears you only read the first line of anything printed. I'll have that apology now.

Quote:
Ahh so whatever the developers decide is the "right thing," is that what your argument hangs on?

Then... what about the fact that they left bunny-hopping in? That doesn't seem to have pleased you too well.
Developers are aware they make mistakes. That is why they seek to correct them. I didn't say the developers support it and thus so do I, I said that I happen to agree with them.

Quote:
Now that's hypocritical. (Not ironic.) Childish comments, like... ohhh "you need to take an English class," or "Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person?" Physician, heal thyself.
Nope. If you read the sentence again you'll note I'm refering to you starting the insults. Another misreading on your behalf. You really need to think when running through the posts.

Quote:
lol I'm a bully?
I didn't say that.

It seems I have touched a never with my general comment though.

Quote:
You're the one who's trying to force his view of what JO should be like onto the entire Outcast playing public.
Do you not see you are doing the same? Whether it be defending those who "cheat" or supporting gunners and force usage.
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Old 04-12-2002, 10:07 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by hughJ
"CS aswell as HLDM run on the quake2 engine so bunnyhopping was possible"

HL/CS/TFC run on a modified Quake1 engine, not Quake2..

the bunnyhopping mechanics for HL/CS/TFC are slightly different than that of Quake2 and Quake3, due to the relative low amount of air-control involved in Quake2 and Quake3, compared to HL...

...
When will the which version of the quake engine is HL on
discusion DIE!

According to valve they STARTED with the original Quake [with opengl renderer] source code, and were given SEVERAL updates by id, who was molding the quake engine into the quake2 engine, leaving them somewhere around the quake 1.5 engine.

Chances are the bunny hopping "feature" was in those UPDATES, so......... Rasafrackin tangents to the point of the thread.....


Force, Schmorse, I got da Schwartz!

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Old 04-12-2002, 05:16 PM   #142
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Bunny (Strafe) jumping nor roling DOES NOT eliminate the use for force speed. Granted you can move lineraly faster with these techniques but force speed has other uses than running away.
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:31 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by 70-228
If you can tell me what the Ziggurat cheat was then I'll believe you know "gaming history"

Unlike you, I don't follow the cheats in a game. In fact, it could be the name for something that I know as something different. Ie, Gotwalls and AA are often mislabeled as the same thing.

However, I have one word for you....boom.


-- Jiro Kage
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Old 04-12-2002, 05:48 PM   #144
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Smile Strafe jumping

It didn't start with Q1 until the quakeworld mod became popular. After that, Q1 was split up into two comunities, Netquake and Quakeworld players. It was Q2 that made it a intergraded part of the game. I could never play Q2 without strafe jumping, it was second nature to most Q2 player, I do it without even thinking about it. Which I guess hurts me since Q2 as I automatically try to strafe jump in every fps I try, lol. In Q3 they reduced it to only 2 starfe jumps in a row. I haven't played Q3 in over a year so I don't know if this changed as I switched to UT. I still love Q2/Q3, and I'll always think of myself as a Quaker, funny how games become part of you. As for the jumping in JKII, I think this won't be looked at by Raven until JKII gets into big lan tournaments and online tournaments, this is when most of the changes come when tourney players start to complain and the organizers of the tourneys set standard rules for gameplay.

BA
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Old 04-12-2002, 06:09 PM   #145
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This is in regard to Competitive play:

As of now the TWL is not considering it a cheat and it is not banned in ladder play.

That said, the TWL isn't running CTY ladders at this moment either.

Competition is starting now. Give us, the folks in the ladders and leagues, some time to deal with it. We're going to hammer the game to death, if something sucks then we'll vote to have it removed from the ladders and see if Raven can do something about it, or we'll get someone to create a Tourney Mod that prevents it.

As to pubbing?
I play on a pub to relax and have fun. True coordination doesn't happen on pubs. Never has, never really will at least not until we can all talk directly to one another without voicecomm progs. So don't whine, just ask the offending player to stop, if that fails vote to kick, if that fails go find another server. It isn't like there's only 10 servers out there.

{BTW, Don't flame me, I'm just trying to cut through to the heart of the argument and bring it to a civilized resolution. }


The contractors on the second Death Star knew the risks when they took the job. All contractors have to take these things into consideration when they take a job--Clerks
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Old 04-12-2002, 10:29 PM   #146
Spider AL
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I dread to think how boring your life might be that you get kicks from this.
Aamof my good, dear friend, "For that, I thank you wholeheartedly." etc. was irony. Something you're not too familiar with, I understand.

Quote:
The same source as yours... a dictionary, the Oxford dictionary to be precise.
Ohhh a fact you may not be aware of: Different dictionaries use different wording in their definitions. Or do you think that all dictionaries by all scholarly publishers are printed exactly alike? lol It's not my eyesight that's at fault, it's your apparent belief that all lingual reference books contain the same print, verbatim.

As for the definition itself, it proves my point. "Use of language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned." bears no relation to my previous posts. I stated that your attempts to warp the game to your idea of what Star Wars should be like, was selfish and self-interested. You contend that I am guilty of the same thing, so you're still confusing irony with hypocrisy and you can add dithering incomprehension to your loooong list of personal faults. Once again, you prove my point admirably. Thank you! You are truly a gift to anybody with an opposing viewpoint to yourself.

Throughout this thread you've made it clear that you consider yourself the person with the "correct" viewpoint, qualified to tell game-developers when they've made mistakes by leaving such things as bunny-hopping in? Truly you are a godlike figure!

Let's be clear, you're the one who wants to alter the engine to disadvantage guns/force users.

Quote:
I'm refering to you starting the insults.
Care to point out where I started the insults? Just so that the good people here can see what innocuous statement sent you off into this blind, self-righteous and self-aggrandising chain of posts, naturally.

And re: you calling me a "bully," you state:

Quote:
I didn't say that.
Ohh you didn't eh? Let's see:

Quote:
I'm more and more convinced that everyone's a bully on the internet.
Yes, seems a pretty clear and plain case of childish sideways implication, but if you say it's not, I'll believe you.

But on a completely different subject, here's a "general comment," (unrelated to you of course,) I'm more and more convinced that "everyone's" an arrested, whining loser on the internet.

Quote:
It seems I have touched a never
Jar-Jar's really making you study hard, isn't he.

Quote:
Do you not see you are doing the same?
Actually what I'm doing is pointing out your blatant selfishness, in wishing that gun-users be penalised for using guns by having their Force powers taken away. Shame on you, and those who share your view on the guns/force subject, for forcing your view of what the game should be like onto innocent players who are currently enjoying themselves on servers designed specifically for guns and force. How dare you.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 04-12-2002, 10:45 PM   #147
Spider AL
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Quote:
it was threads like these combined with the effect it had on one of my favourite games that changed my mind.
Yes, threads such as this do affect some people, sometimes. Hopefully, some people who resent losing on public servers will be affected positively by the debate on here, and will see the flaws in whatever hangups they possess that cause them to whine. However, realistically, debate serves relatively little purpose, but as social animals we all feel the need to voice our views at some time.

Quote:
ah, so if you enter helpusobi 1 youre not activating the cheats but youre exploiting a bug?
This is a good question, but I must point out that cheat codes in games such as JO and Quake are disabled on servers by default. They must be enabled manually and intentionally by the server admins for users to use them in games. Therefore, players that use them on those servers cannot be classified as having broken any rules, thus they have not "cheated" per-se.

The term "cheat-codes" was coined back in the arcade game days, and is hence a throwback that bears little resemblance to the hardened, mercenary and evil multiplayer hacking that people do in order to cheat these days.

Also! If people recode their games so that they can use the codes on servers where the cheat codes have not been enabled, then they have hacked their game, hence that would definitely be cheating!

Because cheating is when you truly do cheat, to further your own game in secret, or to just plain annoy other players by ruining their games. Games tend to be designed (at least slightly) to resist behaviour of this type, thus people must manually recode at least some portion of their game in order to cheat. It might be very easy, as easy as importing a new config file, or adding a .pk3 to your system, but it's still cheating. But if, like strafe-jumping or Supergripping, there is something you can do without altering your game in any way, it is surely a bug, which everyone, regardless of fore-knowledge or coding ability, is able to emulate, do by accident, or otherwise employ.

Not all bugs are evil, rocket jumping in Quake was a bug. Id never thought it could be used in the way it was used by the players... and yes, some people whined about rocket-jumping. Yet it's integral to the FPS multiplayer community these days.

Hope that's clarified my opinion, anyway Trienco. Peace, out.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 04-12-2002, 10:56 PM   #148
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wow... you guys love to argue semantics... and deeply too
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Old 04-12-2002, 11:00 PM   #149
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You ppl really have alot of time...writing pages and pages of nonsense all day...STFU and play the game already!
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:27 AM   #150
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I skipped all the posts.

If everyone can do it, its not a cheat.
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Old 04-13-2002, 01:28 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by grandmasterlee
I skipped all the posts.

If everyone can do it, its not a cheat.
If everyone was suppose to do it, it would be in the instruction manual.

-Caster


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belts with those shield of yours!
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:50 AM   #152
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if everyone wasn't supposed to do it, they would have removed it from the game..

other games have it removed or nullified it through various code implementations.. this is raven we're talking about here.. they obviously knew it existed.. they have loads of quake engine experience..
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Old 04-13-2002, 03:01 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by TdM
thank god one person in this forum called it strafe jumping thank you valdarious - I presume strafe jumping is the same thing... what kinda ridiculous word is bunny hopping....

you do that on bikes and it sounds stupid then... strafe jumping is the term yes all technical so nice...

umm... anyway can you do the signiture curve? strafe jump continuously in one direction in a big long curve then after about 5 or 6 jumps switch direction and strafe jump the opposite way - used to give you a massive leap in action quake 2 giving you a massive advantage....

So, is it called "strafe jumping"? I thought it was bunny hopping. So to strafe jump, do you just press jump and then strafe to the side or something? I thought it was crouch, or is this a different thing altogether?


"Well, you look like an overgrown Kowakian monkey-lizard"
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Old 04-13-2002, 06:05 AM   #154
Trienco
 
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i know what you meant, just wanted to point out that your definition will only work for mp on servers that dont have cheats enabled. in sp it's 'in the game' but it's still called cheating.

and on the matter if raven wanted strafe-jumping to be in the game. i doubt it, it makes force speed unnecessary. but just wait for a first patch. if it will still be possible they want it if not they just forgot to do something about it (or didnt care).

but i honestly doubt that any serious game designer would ignore the fact that one of the features of the game becomes obsolete because of a 'bug' in the engine if someone brought up that topic during development.


f@dz http://festini.device-zero.de

"...at least, he fails to appreciate Star Wars, which is a failing of intelligence in my opinion" - Jeanne Cavelos
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Old 04-13-2002, 11:55 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caster


If everyone was suppose to do it, it would be in the instruction manual.

-Caster
maybe they forgot to put it in the manual?

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Old 04-15-2002, 01:23 AM   #156
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bumb
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Old 04-15-2002, 02:30 AM   #157
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I can't believe you F-(rhymes with ducking) bumped this thread that has been raging for too long already!!!! Oy!


Hehehehe oh well...


Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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Old 04-15-2002, 03:26 AM   #158
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I am a server admin of a duel server. Ocasionally we get a couple people in there that bunny hop and connect it with a heavy (one hit kill) downswing. That is very unbalanced since heavy is supposed to be a slow swing. I have seen people on my server do two bunny hops followed by the downswing and then immediatly do a backflip...and start all over again. Not only does it look ridiculous it is Cheap IMO. It detracts from the "Fun" factor of playing or watching a duel.
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Old 04-15-2002, 06:31 AM   #159
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Ater reading a several of the posts here, I have to side with the anti-bunnyhoppers.
First off, for those who hate the term bunnyhopping, I realize it doeasnt sound as cool or technical asstrafe jumping, but it is a bunny hop. If you saw someone in real life hopping down the street I doubt you would say,"Hey, look at that guy strafe jumping."
As for the move in the game, it is a a lazymans tactic and as close to a cheat as you can get without entering a code. The reason I say it's a lazymans tactic is because it requires no skill whatsoever. Sure it may take some time to perfect but thats irrelevant. The real "pros" are the guys who can use things like lightsaber skill, weapons skill, and force powers to give them selves an edge over the competition. I've lost count on how many times I've had someone come up on me from behind, force grip me, and move me around so fast I cant force push my way out of it before dumping me off a cliff. I've use the same move against others as well. Then there are some guys sho are such pros that they can get out of such situations more often than not and make me wish I'd never tried it. There are guys who know the maps so well they can get all teh god weapos fast and know just how to use them to kick everyones butt. For those who dont like rocket launcers, I've also been in situations where I thougth I was about to blow someone away just to have them run right at me and force puch all my rockets right back at me making that launcher work against me. There are also guys out there that have practices so much with their saber that they can kick anyones butt in a duel just by knowing what to do and when to do it. These guys are the real "pros" because they can use the game as it was intended and still win most matches. Even the so called "cheap" moves at least involve some real tactics. If someone has just barely won a lighsaber duel with someone, why not hit them with a burst of force lightning before they get a chance to heal up. Not my fault he took so much damage during the fight. These things take practice, talent, and a general understanding of tactics. The guys who use bugs in the game like bunny hopping or some of the invisible models, are just too lazy to realy learn how to play a game.
I'm not saying the bunny hopers are bad people or somehow less than human (this is just a game after all). What I do think is that they generally are inconsiderate and dont care if they ruin the fun for others. So, for those bunny hopping gurus out there, please make your own servers to play on and leave the rest of us in peace. Otherwise, dont get upset when you get kicked off of servers where people dont like what you are doing.
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Old 04-15-2002, 06:57 AM   #160
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umm no matter if strafe jumping is "skill" or not - but there are big differences between speeds different players gain in quake 3, and after how many jumps they gain the speed (some people seem to be going at twice the normal speed after few jumps) -, lets say you respawn on the opposite side of the map (compared to where all the others happen to be fighting)... are you supposed to just slowly run there (and maybe get immediately killed again once you get there)... i have used and will use strafe jumping to move faster around the maps.. i dont use it in fights (i dont know how it would be good for fights), but i dont care if others do (actually i dont care how others play in general)
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