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Thread: Petition: Remove Saber Throwing In FFA duels Next Patch
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:17 PM   #81
Khaydarin
 
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I dont think this should be allowed. I usually dont use saber throw, because with force its useless, and on noforce you can't throw your saber (i should hope so right?).
Here ' s a tip for you ZUFUSS !!!!!!!! NEVER TRY TO CATCH SOMEONE' S LIGHTSABER . Do you understand???? That s not a toy!!!!!! It s VERY PAINFULL!!!!!!

Legend Of Khaydarin.
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:29 PM   #82
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oh jesus I can't believe some of you people and your ignorance.

First I'd like to get something out, saber throw is not the only counter ot the heavy special. I NEVER use saber throw, and whenever they use the heavy special I just time my swing when they land in MEDIUM stance, and land a hit. I have beaten a TON of heavy stances using only the medium stance. You need experience, you need to know your enemy. Since I used to use medium stance I know all its weaknesses.

Second of all, sure saber throw is easy to counter, but how are you going to dodge saber throw AND attack at the same time? That's right, you can't. Let me give you a little situation that happened to me yesterday:

Duel in FFA, a guys only attack against me was saber throw, he did nothing else. I was dodging left and right getting out of the way of the throws but I could never catch up to the saber thrower. This is once again in medium stance, I finally catch up to him and take a swing, the first swing hits the air so I combo into my second swing, as I"m doing that he saber throws. Since i'm so close he gets his sword back instantly, and then he rolls away. This is how he killed me, whenever I took a swing he would saber throw and roll away. It takes a small amount of timing but within an hour of practicing you can have that move perfected and its impossible for the other person to catch you. With no force speed, pull etc. to aid you. If someone can name me one way to counter somebody who can roll away and never let you catch them, explain it to me because I must be missing something.

Some of you are just blind fools that can't see how horribly balanced saber throw is without other force powers to aid you.
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:39 PM   #83
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platy u can accompany zufuss in jumping off the bridge.
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:41 PM   #84
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If someone can name me one way to counter somebody who can roll away and never let you catch them, explain it to me because I must be missing something.

Some of you are just blind fools that can't see how horribly balanced saber throw is without other force powers to aid you.
ok I can name one way, and probably a few more after that.

but to meet your quota, try throwing your saber at them as they roll, it goes alot further and faster than any other attack and can easily catch someone whose rolling around.

also you can still force jump when in an FFA duel, so you can strafe force jump to where they are rolling to and hit them with an attack.

you can roll forward yourself and keep up with them at least, since the roll speed will be the same for everyone when no force is involved.

the purple one
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:44 PM   #85
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throwing saber at them as they roll.... no I don't want to do that because I don't want duels to turn into a saber throwing fest. Rolling to keep up with them doesn't work because there is a short delay after you roll that gives them time to strafe away.

Your only valid point is the force jumping, which is the only possible way I can beat them. It still fails sometimes though, because once again they can just roll away. Some of these duels have lasted 15 minutes for me, just dodging and trying to get that hit in. I feel really cheap using saber throw to kill them.
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:46 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elmo O.o
platy u can accompany zufuss in jumping off the bridge.
What a wonderful statement, backed up with amazingly logical evidence against my claims, how can I fight back, it is futile!
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:54 PM   #87
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oh yes u puny ant bow before me!
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Old 04-16-2002, 01:56 PM   #88
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well as mean as this may sound, you DO have the option to fight back with an effective tool, by choosing not to use saber throw, you are the one creating the imbalance. the options are there for you to use, if someone else is allocating their foce powers for saber throws, and you want to be able to effectively counter them, you need to do the same.

I suck at sabering, but it's still the only thing I do in JKII I don't use any other weapons, and I've managed to discourage many a saber thrower, by dodging their shot and nailing them with a throw of my own by getting in fairly close. they are completely exposed while their saber is spinning around trying to catch up with me, and since I'm close to them, I can hit them with my saber while they have no defense, and have mine back faster than them. if you do that once or twice, I find they really think twice about trying to use the throw near as much.

this is just in my experience, so you can take it or leave it, but the choice IS yours, you just choose to leave things harder on yourself by not using the throw.

the purple one
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Old 04-16-2002, 02:03 PM   #89
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^^wut the purple guy said.

Quote:
Originally posted by RabidPlatypus
throwing saber at them as they roll.... no I don't want to do that because I don't want duels to turn into a saber throwing fest. Rolling to keep up with them doesn't work because there is a short delay after you roll that gives them time to strafe away.
lol u see this is ur problem. do it gainst them too... coz aparently u have this "honor" that really sucks pig wang.
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Old 04-16-2002, 02:32 PM   #90
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Why don't you also take out force jump, and only allow medium stance in a duel. That way, everyone is the same.


-DarkEra

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Old 04-16-2002, 02:40 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by RabidPlatypus
throwing saber at them as they roll.... no I don't want to do that because I don't want duels to turn into a saber throwing fest. Rolling to keep up with them doesn't work because there is a short delay after you roll that gives them time to strafe away.

Your only valid point is the force jumping, which is the only possible way I can beat them. It still fails sometimes though, because once again they can just roll away. Some of these duels have lasted 15 minutes for me, just dodging and trying to get that hit in. I feel really cheap using saber throw to kill them.
if all you did was constantly try to attack them in the same way over and over, then you deserved to lose... you're just as repeditive as those you claim to dislike.

do you know what would happened if you threw your saber at him when he rolled? he would think "gee, when i roll i get hit. maybe i shouldnt do that!" and then he would *change his stragedy*. in this game of JK2, every single problem that people are complaining about is rooted in the fact that they want to play in only one certain way, and thus their own stragedy is horribly rigid... theres no room for growth. if you dont want to use saber throw, fine, dont use saber throw. but other people will, and by not using it yourself you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.

when i first started playing, i ran into that problem a lot... people throwing their sabers at me while i was swinging. but instead of whining and complaining, i adapted my own style to defend against it. and guess what, it worked. if this one guy keeps rolling away from you when you swing, then it sounds like you're not going fast enough... so try using light stance. light stance can be very deadly if you actually direct it instead of running around in circles.

you want everyone else to adapt to your playing style.. but thats not how it works. if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...
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Old 04-16-2002, 02:43 PM   #92
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Umm,

Keep the saber throws in FFA duels. The main problems with FFA duels right now are not the sabre throws, but the ability to use bacta canisters and stock up on shields before the fight.

Bacta canisters should NOT be allowed during dueling--thats total BS because both duelers should be on equal terms. Extra shields should NOT be allowed during duels either. You could be dueling someone with over 100 shield points while you have none. does that sound fair?

The main reason I use saber throwing is to beat the heavy stance unblockable. I've dueled against people who do NOTHING else but this move and its VERY hard to hit them afterwards because of this moves screwed up hit detection.

I know this discussion isnt about No Force duel servers, but I encourage you guys to try them somtime. Once you run into a heavy unblockable user there is little to nothing you can do to counter him after the unblockable.

Peace,
Bronze
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Old 04-16-2002, 02:54 PM   #93
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ummmmmm FFA isn't supposed to be fair, it's supposed to be survival of the fittest.

I don't think raven put in the saber challenge to let people have "fair" fights during FFA, it's just a way to still be able to saber against one other person, 1 on 1, without others interrupting, and may the best saberist win.

if you're on an FFA server, you must know that some people are going to have more health, different force powers, more shields, or maybe even a force powerup.

if you suspect someone of having a decisive advantage over you in a duel, don't accept the saber challenge. if you do accept it, then do your best to win, use every move available to you as it's needed, and may the best saberist win. Or, if that doesn't appeal to you, go and get extra health/sheilds/bacta cannisters yourself and level the playing field.

the only place I know of where fights are supposed to be fair, is on duel servers, that's why you start out with the same health, same shields etc... when you respawn, those fights are designed to have each opponent start off with the exact same health and sheilds and force powers, and no interruptions from other players.

FFA is just that, it's a free for all, anything goes (barring cheating of course) and may the most talented or most creative player win.

the purple one
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Old 04-16-2002, 02:56 PM   #94
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Nah...sorry,crap idea.

If your not skilled enough to dodge saber throws...then im afraid its your tough titty.

If you wonna play at star wars without the force,i suggest you leap around the back yard with a brightly painted bamboo cane.Instead of trying to impose your will unto others.
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:05 PM   #95
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Is this thread still going?

Yeesh...

Either learn to dodge or learn to block. Not hard really. either move or do nothing.


The contractors on the second Death Star knew the risks when they took the job. All contractors have to take these things into consideration when they take a job--Clerks
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:13 PM   #96
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Dodging Saber throws is cheap. I would like Ravensoft to remove rolls/jumps and even movement when a Saber is thrown at you.


/sarcasm off.
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:17 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sartis
Dodging Saber throws is cheap. I would like Ravensoft to remove rolls/jumps and even movement when a Saber is thrown at you.


/sarcasm off.

I will sign that petition, it's definitely unfair you can move when a saber is thrown at you!

...

...

...

Oh wait, it was a joke. Hahahaha, yeah that's a good one dude!


-- Jiro Kage
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:25 PM   #98
mima kake
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The solution for saber throwing is
that you should be able to throw but it shouldn't
boomerang back
so you have to pick it up

I don't use the force when i throw things so...
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:33 PM   #99
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I also vote NO.

Fighting a thrower is not just about 'skillz', it's also about strategy. And that makes it a challenge.....

If everyone were to use the same stance, and fought in the same manner, this game would get boring real fast. I feel the fact that there are options such as throwing adds that extra bit to make the game much more enjoyable.

Yeah, you have people who abuse a certain 'move' (be it throwing or something else), but so what? If they're a one trick pony, you should be able to develop a strategy that will take them out. If not, you've got more work ahead of you.....

I think the original poster prefers FFA duels for the same reason that I do: the unpredictability. You never know what you're in for, until you're in it. Where we differ is in our feelings about throws. I just think it adds to the experience (and I've lost my fair share against this type of player - I've also won too).
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:47 PM   #100
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Hey while were at it lets remove the lightsaber because a lot of people in the JEDI KNIGHT game like to dominate with guns.

Next lets get rid of the rocket launcher because a lot of people use it. Come to think of it let's put the flechette launcher and repeater rifle in there too.

The Force powers have to go to because some people use them way to often.

Um, ok, let's get rid of the explosives because everyone who drops them and Force jumps is "cheap" or "gay" so they gotta go too.

We'll have lots of fun with the Bryar pistol and Stormtrooper rifle!
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:50 PM   #101
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long live the stun baton
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:54 PM   #102
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Is there an aspect of this game that you guys WONT complain about?


Force Drain, heal, heavy saber stance, grip, saber throw- sheesh, get a life and learn to play the game.
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Old 04-16-2002, 04:45 PM   #103
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Ok, I think we've made our point, the overwhelming votes are for NO. Can we get a mod to lock this thread? It's only turning into a flame fest... well more so.
Good Day.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:00 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by PurplWulf
I don't think raven put in the saber challenge to let people have "fair" fights...
and may the best saberist win.
hope you realize you're contradicting yourself. obviously in that case it's not about the better saberist but who spent more time picking up powerups.

also, let's have a short crash course in game design. if your players have more than one option, make sure no option is better than another option. if they have to decide dont punish them for the decision. what would you say if you could pick a class and one class would be superior? it would be bad design but some would probably just say 'stop whining, play the better class'.

and especially jk2 is interesting to watch. you would expect the more experienced and skillful player ending up 1st, 2nd, 3rd but instead it's people using newb-tactics. why? because a trained monkey can use them and only a skilled player can defend against them. no matter what you say, that's pretty much the definition of 'not balanced'.

btw. is it just me or does it seem that you loose your saber a lot more often in sp? a lot of times i throw it and it just ends up on the floor and you have to pull it to get it back. thats never happening in mp.


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Old 04-16-2002, 05:01 PM   #105
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:04 PM   #106
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omfgz teh stun baton rawr
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:14 PM   #107
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Quote:
hope you realize you're contradicting yourself. obviously in that case it's not about the better saberist but who spent more time picking up powerups.
not at all, there's only a contradiction when someone else puts their own fatalism into my statements. I was dueling in FFA just yesterday, and had mega shield pickup, full health, and my opponent was only at 100 health, 100 shield, he still kicked my ass, and on my own server to boot where my ping was literally "1" to his 200 ping. he had better moves and better strategy, his timing was excellant, and he beat me 9 out of 10 fights because he was the better saberist.

let's not confuse having an "advantage" with being "invincible"
there's a huge difference. you could give someone with no skills all the advantages and people with true skill will still find a way to beat them.

if you choose to give up the fight just because someone else has an advantage, that's your choice, but there's no point in complaining about it. Some people take that disadvantage and find ways to work around it, and the game is that much better because of those people. They develop new moves, new tactics, and new strategies that eventually improve alot of other people's gaming skills as well.

Sure it's easier to just say, "well that's unbeatable so it should be removed from the game", but not everyone has that mindset, some of us like a challenge, and like to find ways to overcome it.

Some of those ways have already been discussed here and immediately dismissed by the people advocating this banning of the saber throw... the question is why? It obviously works as a good counter, but you CHOOSE not to use it. Is that our fault? or the games flaw??? No, it's your CHOICE.

the purple one
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:23 PM   #108
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BRAVO Purple 1!

Very Well Said. I commend you for your well thought out reasoning. If more people approached gaming the way you did there would be less cries of "l4mer" and "che4ter".

Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

Perhaps you should just post that as a new thread for everyone to read and maybe we can stop these endless threads on so called lame tactics.


The contractors on the second Death Star knew the risks when they took the job. All contractors have to take these things into consideration when they take a job--Clerks
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:31 PM   #109
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Well obviously the person who doesn't have the shields and bacta tank can still win but the point is it would be better if it was absolutely fair. I don't really mind it that much because I can beat almost anyone in dueling but when you have a bacta tank on your side it can change the tide of the battle.

Too many people refuse to have anything change, hey some things might be for the better so don't bash everyone who brings up balancing issues. I'm just going to take Blizzard Entertainment for example, patches are released for their games quite often to fix not only bugs but balancing issues. Now that JK2 has been out for awhile there may be a few things that can be changed for the better so think about that before you call everyone whiners and complainers. There is no doubt that some of these people are just plain bad and lose to a player who owned them with a certain ability and hench they think its cheap but not always.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:42 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by PurplWulf

not at all, there's only a contradiction when someone else puts their own fatalism into my statements. I was dueling in FFA just yesterday, and had mega shield pickup, full health, and my opponent was only at 100 health, 100 shield, he still kicked my ass, and on my own server to boot where my ping was literally "1" to his 200 ping. he had better moves and better strategy, his timing was excellant, and he beat me 9 out of 10 fights because he was the better saberist.
yes, he did so because he was a MUCH better saberist. if he would have been just a bit better you would expect that he should still win but if he has to land 50-100% more hits that wont happen. maybe i shouldnt see a duel as a test of skill where both players are on equal ground, but in fact i would even (during the duel) strip both players of their shields and increase health to 100. not only because the 1 hit kill wouldnt be so much better than a regular red swing (you need 3-4 if he's 'maxed out').

the better saberist will only win if it's a fair duel. the more advantages one player has, the bigger the 'skill-difference' has to be for the other player to win.
so it probably just depends on what you want to duels to be.


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Old 04-16-2002, 05:53 PM   #111
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Territo wrote:
Quote:
Well obviously the person who doesn't have the shields and bacta tank can still win but the point is it would be better if it was absolutely fair. I don't really mind it that much because I can beat almost anyone in dueling but when you have a bacta tank on your side it can change the tide of the battle.
granted, I don't think a single person here is saying there is no advantage gained by having Bacta available, but that's just like saying, "Bacta should be removed from the game because some people grab it before a duel, or already have it, and it's not fair to me because I don't use bacta at all, I find it cheap"

ok, this person finds it cheap, but they DO have the option to use it, they just choose not to, that's not a balance issue, it's a common sense issue IMO. If you're going to deny yourself the same opportunities that others are using, how can you go around saying it's not fair, when it's your choice?

Quote:
Too many people refuse to have anything change, hey some things might be for the better so don't bash everyone who brings up balancing issues.
once again, agreed, if there is a legitimate balance issue, it should be addressed and received with open minds, but ultimately it's Raven who'll decide what gets fixed in a game patch. Once the tools are released I'm sure we'll see dozens of mods that are "supposed" balance fixes, but again, I still don't see how you can call someone refusing to take advantage of the items in the game, or the moves that come with the game a "balance" issue. It seems to me that's a choice issue, one that individual made, and then wants to blame others for.

Quote:
There is no doubt that some of these people are just plain bad and lose to a player who owned them with a certain ability and hench they think its cheap but not always
based on the arguments I've seen here, at least for this particular subject, I'd be inclined to lean towards that being the major factor here. Most people don't seem to have a problem with the saber throw, and rightfully so. Nobody is forced into accepting a challenge from another player, it's another choice that they make. If you find someone that challenges you, or you challenge, that doesn't play in a way that you find enjoyable, simply decline any future challenges they offer, and stay clear of them when possible on the map.

Luck plays a factor in any game, as does Lag, Packet Loss, Computer Speed, Location, Reflexes, Mood, Attitude and countless other variables. The minute you fire up your game you're setting yourself to be at a disadvantage to someone out there who has one or all of those factors in their favor. If you tried to ban everything that gave someone an advantage, there wouldn't be anything left to play.

the purple one
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Old 04-16-2002, 06:08 PM   #112
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i don't get any of this.
personaly i've only been playing between myself and a friend.
light stance blocks just as well if not better than the others because of the fast recovery (its the stance i use!)
Heavy is easy to get past, ya know, while they swing you can let your saber settle down or take a few slashes in till they finally let the blow go.

as for the petition, i vote flat out no.
mostly due to seeing Zuf's pretty blowouts.
hes now on my troll list of people to ignore.
but also because.. i think force throw, like jump, is a should have.
i don't use it myself to often, but the jedi has the saber, now why shouldn't he be able to use it in more than just a slash attack?
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:08 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Territo
Well obviously the person who doesn't have the shields and bacta tank can still win but the point is it would be better if it was absolutely fair. I don't really mind it that much because I can beat almost anyone in dueling but when you have a bacta tank on your side it can change the tide of the battle.

Too many people refuse to have anything change, hey some things might be for the better so don't bash everyone who brings up balancing issues. I'm just going to take Blizzard Entertainment for example, patches are released for their games quite often to fix not only bugs but balancing issues. Now that JK2 has been out for awhile there may be a few things that can be changed for the better so think about that before you call everyone whiners and complainers. There is no doubt that some of these people are just plain bad and lose to a player who owned them with a certain ability and hench they think its cheap but not always.
Bacta in duels is a double edged sword, sometimes, when I'm on a server with a few people who are willing to just duel, I'll come out of a duel and will have very little health, only to be challenged and when the fight starts, I'll have to use that to get my health up, because the other guy is starting at 100 (I don't always get to use it before I accept the challenge as some people are trying to hack at us so I accept so I won't be cut down).

I will say, however, that I would be more content on a system to where if two people enter a duel their health is automatically boosted to full with no shields, and at the end of the duel the victor's health and shields are set to what they were before the duel. As it is now, some servers have it set to where after a duel you have full health, others not...I'd like to see a consistent system.
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:31 PM   #114
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Is there a poll for this question, it'd be interesting to see the result. Saber throwing never bothers me personally, its easy to block (even with light stance) and it's the best tactic for heavy stance users who can't switch to another stance.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:40 PM   #115
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Quote:
if you dont like the thread and consider it whining: DONT ANSWER.
Logic continues to elude this forum I see. See, The thing is, when Raven goes looking for **** to put in the patch, if no one but the few people that agreed with this were posting, Raven wouldn't know of the overwhelming majority that is against it. Preserving the game for as long as we can before the whinny *****es get everything nerfed just like every other game.
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Old 04-16-2002, 09:04 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bronzefist
Umm,

Keep the saber throws in FFA duels. The main problems with FFA duels right now are not the sabre throws, but the ability to use bacta canisters and stock up on shields before the fight.

Bacta canisters should NOT be allowed during dueling--thats total BS because both duelers should be on equal terms. Extra shields should NOT be allowed during duels either. You could be dueling someone with over 100 shield points while you have none. does that sound fair?

The main reason I use saber throwing is to beat the heavy stance unblockable. I've dueled against people who do NOTHING else but this move and its VERY hard to hit them afterwards because of this moves screwed up hit detection.

I know this discussion isnt about No Force duel servers, but I encourage you guys to try them somtime. Once you run into a heavy unblockable user there is little to nothing you can do to counter him after the unblockable.

Peace,
Bronze
then get your own bacta canisters and shield boosters WHAT A GOOD IDEA!

anyways, it's not meant to be equal (did anybody say that!?) it's meant to be survival of the fittest, like real life


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Old 04-16-2002, 10:24 PM   #117
StormHammer
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...it's good to warm my bones beside the fire... (Pink Floyd)

And what a lot of flames there are. At least my marsh-mallows have toasted nicely.

While Zufuss may disagree with or not wish to read some of the more positive feedback, and possible strategies, other members seem to have taken to flogging dead horses with flaming brands.

Sorry people, but flaming and insults are not appreciated here. Feel free to disagree with someone else's opinion, and state your reasons...but there's no need to descend to name-calling and flame-baiting. It does no one any favours. If someone is unwilling to shift their POV, then simply refrain from posting any further.

Zufuss...I have to say that I feel you've dug your heels in. Some of the other members offered some constructive feedback and advice in countering the saber throw, but you dismissed their arguments out of hand. If there are existing counter-measures to the move, then it is a simple matter to employ them. If you choose only to fight a certain way, using a particular stance, then I can only say that is your choice. There is an old adage, fight fire with fire...so if someone is exclusively using this tactic, then give them a taste of their own medicine. Also, I would imagine the last thing you want to do is prolong such a battle, and personally I would use any tactics necessary to take that person down. If you have defined your own particular code of combat...well, I'm sorry, but a lot of other players don't recognise honour, etc., and it would be unfair to the majority of players to remove a feature from the game simply because some players choose not to adopt the move, or employ some of the counter-measures.

Secondly, you also stated that you are quite happy to hunt down and score easy kills on saber throwers outside of duels. So what is the problem? If you lose in a duel, you can just get your own back later...

It's sad to see a thread descend into this kind of chaos, and it really leaves me no option but to close it.
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