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Old 04-17-2002, 04:57 PM   #41
S!TH!NAT0R
 
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Excellent ideas!! -I too feel that the saber-control is way too loose and random in the heat of a intense duel. It is too easy to make a dumb mistake when u intended something else. Poor collision-detection is also a major problem! So many times I die or kill another player when it should'nt have happened at all due to poor collision detection. Also, i've noticed many times that hits that should have connected didnt register at all! Very frustrating. JK][ is a damn good game but Raven should have refined the MP saber-combat more and made the control much tighter....way too loose. Anyway, lets hope Raven has been aware of the concerns of the majority of the players and fix some things with the patch.I kinda don't blame them because they most likely had a stern release deadline to meet from LucasArts. I don't remember where but I read somewhere a couple weeks back that they had alot more they wanted to put into the game but did'nt have time.Though knowing Raven, they are most likey hard at work on a kicka$$ patch -They are an excellent company like Epic!


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Old 04-17-2002, 05:10 PM   #42
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Excellent ideas!! -I too feel that the saber-control is way too loose and random in the heat of a intense duel. It is too easy to make a dumb mistake when u intended something else. Poor collision-detection is also a major problem! So many times I die or kill another player when it should'nt have happened at all due to poor collision detection. Also, i've noticed many times that hits that should have connected didnt register at all! Very frustrating. JK][ is a damn good game but Raven should have refined the MP saber-combat more and made the control much tighter....way too loose. Anyway, lets hope Raven has been aware of the concerns of the majority of the players and fix some things with the patch.I kinda don't blame them because they most likely had a stern release deadline to meet from LucasArts. I don't remember where but I read somewhere a couple weeks back that they had alot more they wanted to put into the game but did'nt have time.Though knowing Raven, they are most likey hard at work on a kicka$$ patch -They are an excellent company like Epic!


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Old 04-17-2002, 05:10 PM   #43
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Excellent ideas!! -I too feel that the saber-control is way too loose and random in the heat of a intense duel. It is too easy to make a dumb mistake when u intended something else. Poor collision-detection is also a major problem! So many times I die or kill another player when it should'nt have happened at all due to poor collision detection. Also, i've noticed many times that hits that should have connected didnt register at all! Very frustrating. JK][ is a damn good game but Raven should have refined the MP saber-combat more and made the control much tighter....way too loose. Anyway, lets hope Raven has been aware of the concerns of the majority of the players and fix some things with the patch.I kinda don't blame them because they most likely had a stern release deadline to meet from LucasArts. I don't remember where but I read somewhere a couple weeks back that they had alot more they wanted to put into the game but did'nt have time.Though knowing Raven, they are most likey hard at work on a kicka$$ patch -They are an excellent company like Epic!


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Old 04-17-2002, 06:16 PM   #44
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Nice triple post. How about deleting some of those extra ones, or learn not to hit the button so fast. =]


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Old 04-17-2002, 07:17 PM   #45
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Yeah, I thought it was random the first time I played against my friend... I couldn't land a hit on him... But with practice I learned to control it.... Just because you try it once or twice and it doesn't "click" doesn't mean it is broken... I can make the saber hit exactly how and when I want on any of the stances... espcially hard stance... People don't get it to work perfectly for them right away so they whine whine whine.. instead of practice practice practice... I have been duelling with 2 friends on a lan at school for the last 2 weeks just us 3 with no lag... our internet here sucks but I found a decent ping today with saber only FFA and I scored a 44... 1st place with the 2nd place being 28... That is what practicing gets you... I can assure you I didn't randomly hit my way up to 44...
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Old 04-17-2002, 07:28 PM   #46
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Well it's official, 85% of you don't understand my point.
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Old 04-17-2002, 09:11 PM   #47
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...and that's very bad. But I guess some of the posters here understand your point and agree but discuss only small details of what to enhance in saber combat control. IMO the Die by the Sword control would be great but being realistic I'd also be plain happy if they made the moves 100% repeatable.
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:41 PM   #48
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No.... I completely understand it...You want to change the system because YOU don't like it...That is an awfully selfish reason despite how many might follow you... if you don't like the game, sell it... However, I, like many, would hate to remaster the saber in this game because some guy decides hes self-righteous enough to try to speak for the entire JK2 fanbase...and if you aren't that.. you should keep your thoughts to yourself. Personally, I love the system...
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:47 PM   #49
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I have a solution that I think everybody that hates multi-player saber battles might like:

A modification that allows you to use single-player movement, moves, and collision detections. Then you get proper saber locks, saber battles that might actually take some skill instead of mostly lucky hits, a system that doesn't feel so cumbersome and annoying.


Insert a witty and thought-provoking quote here, I can't think of any.
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Old 04-18-2002, 02:44 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silent Wolf
solo,
for raven to renig and revamp the lightsaber multiplayer combat would be essential to saying ...hey guys we Fked up...lez fix this pos. The system is not a POS, i fail to see how it is even "random" when i can duplicate the moves i need and want at anytime. From a business point of view, there is no way nor any reason to change the combat. They made the combat the way it is for a reason, tweaking the hit detection or the netcode are valid points i agree, however emulating something they obviously did not want to (the single playercombat) in a patch would be ludicrious. I for one have no problem owning with the lightsaber as it is now in multiplayer, to be honest i prefer it. The sheer thril of going up against a fellow "human" with a lightsaber excites me, maybe im simple.

-Wolf

p.s. Im not trying to be combative, sometimes my writting is edgy, i enjoyed your read very much solo

Honestly, I don't really think sabre combat is random so much as it is BORING. Part of why I want the combat to be like SP is because SP sabre combat was exciting. MP combat seems sluggish and lacking in precision. It seems less like using a sword and more like using a club to me. Most of the sabre fights I've been in have been two guys running at each other, trying to time a strong swing so as to hit the other guy without themselves being hit. That's pretty much it from what I've seen. Frankly, that bores the crap out of me. I've played on duel servers, and this happens a little less frequently, but the duels just bore me. They have no pizazz, no flash, no style to them. But more than that, they have no precision to them. There's no blocking, no attack, parry, and counter attack. It's just swing your sabre and hope you hit the guy before he hits you. Most of it has to do with the angle of attack anyway. If you come in at a slightly off angle, he won't block. At all. That's part of the problem, and it's why people end up running around like headless chickens. To me, that's not what sabre combat should be. IT doesn't have to be like Ep. I, but it still isn't anything like any of the original trilogy, where at least there was some strategy to the fighting. If you watch ANH, the fighting there actually has some thought behind it. It's precise. They block, parry, attack, etc. You don't really do any of that in the current system. You just swing and pray. This is the major reason why I've deleted the game from my system. I've beaten the single player game, have played enough multiplayer, and have grown bored or aggravated with it. For my time and money, I'd rather be having fun, and as it is, the game just isn't all that fun to me. It lacks immersiveness. It just feels like typical Q3A deathmatch with a few changed graphics and sounds, and some force powers. The sabre is actively discouraged in FFA games, and the MP sabre combat is just dull and lifeless. So, I've gone back to RTCW. I keep up with things here in the hopes that I'll hear about a patch or a mod, but I'm not holding my breath on either any time soon.
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Old 04-18-2002, 03:42 AM   #51
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posternutbag, you still don't get it. Thanks for trying drive thru.
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Old 04-18-2002, 01:12 PM   #52
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LOL... That is twice now you are sayign ridiculousness with NO backup... What YOU don't get is that THIS IS THE GAME... suck it up or get out... LOL though... hilarious how you say "you dont get it"... umm, there is nothing to get about your post.. YOU dont like it so you came here to whine... I still don't see a reason "85% don't get it"... i think you need a clue...
And to the guuy that thought single player combat was exciting... umm, using speed boost and hitting the same mindless drones over and over is not exciting.. using strategy to 1on1 people with saber/force powers is... but then again if you havent invested the time to learn it, that is fine... the people that think there is a lack of strategy and control are not the ones ranking in the top 3 on the servers.. there is a reason for that...
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Old 04-18-2002, 01:32 PM   #53
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Thing is we LOVE the game and therefore are eager to get rid of obvious failures to make it even better. Sabercombat is a field where great improvements could be made to make a great game greater.

BTW Eternity got a point there:

"I have a solution that I think everybody that hates multi-player saber battles might like:

A modification that allows you to use single-player movement, moves, and collision detections. Then you get proper saber locks, saber battles that might actually take some skill instead of mostly lucky hits, a system that doesn't feel so cumbersome and annoying."

Hopefully singleplayer combat is transferrable to multiplayer. That would at least be some improvement.
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Old 04-18-2002, 01:44 PM   #54
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Angry Saber is OK already.

It doesn't need any bloody fixing, if you think the combat is random then you probably just can't handle your saber properly. I do not score "lucky hits". I know exactly what I'm doing. If you think there is nothing more to it than "swing and hope" then you probably just really suck. If you think that the blocking is crud, then you can't even face your opponent properly and you are just totally stupid. The game is fine the way it is.
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Old 04-18-2002, 02:18 PM   #55
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Nill,

I realize that your handle on this forum kind of dictates your behavior, but simply popping up and saying "Quitcher*****ing!! You guys obviously suck!" doesn't really help the debate any. If you're such the uber-Jedi, why don't you post a few tips and tactics and educate all of us lowly whiners on how to properly use a sabre. But simply posting yet ANOTHER flame post does NOTHING to further what is otherwise a fairly reasonable debate about how to improve the game.

You're right, though, the game isn't really random, as I see it. It's just boring. "Properly handling your sabre" comes down to basically timing a heavy stance swing and running away when you can't time it properly. That's what I've noticed on most FFA games, especially the sabre-only ones. As far as duels go, there's a bit more use of the other stances, but for the most part, people still joust rather than duel. You charge at the guy, swing, hope you timed it properly (or, I guess in your case, know you timed it properly) and hit the other guy. You hardly ever block a sabre blow, and locks are almost nonexistent. In about 30 duels and fights on FFA matches, I think I've locked maybe twice. I've probably blocked maybe 12 times total. Changing the game to implement the SP style of fighting would make the game more immersive, exciting, and entertaining. Leaving it as it is, the game's just boring. I've played on duel servers and have done well, holding the lead spot for five or six rounds at a time, and frankly, it just gets really dull after that long. There's no intricacy or precision to the fighting. It's just two guys swinging clubs at each other and hoping not to get bashed in the process.

For everyone else,

If you're honestly concerned about this, and would like to see MP sabre combat mimic SP sabre combat, post to this thread and sign the petition. If you want Raven to change things, you have to let them know. Those of you who don't agree with that post, please don't bother going there to flame. That's not the point of the post. The post is designed to be a petition to encourage Raven to change. If you disagree, start a petition of your own to leave the game as it is or something.
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Old 04-18-2002, 02:40 PM   #56
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You want advice? Try this:

ANTI GUN HINT:
Some bloke tries to shoot me with the repeater, I PULL it out of his hands, and shoot HIM with it / slash him to pieces. Some people have actually been stupid enough to pull out a rocket launcher at ridiculously close range.
*YanK*
I'll have that thank you.

EXAMPLE:
Some guy runs around me slashing in heavy stance. I'm standing still, looking at him. After he runs around for a bit batting at the air like a frustrated child, he finally steps towards me, at which point I step back a tiny bit, avoiding the blow, and then strafe past him in MEDIUM (yes, shock, horror) stance slashing at him.

[READ CAREFULLY]

If my first hit connects, I strafe (just strafe, no other keys apart from attack) in the opposite direction immediately after my first hit connects which makes you slash again without finishing your last swing. This can be done up to four times, slashing in the opposite direction everytime. Someone coming out of DFA is SO DEAD when you hit them with this, heal or not. This works for both medium and light.
Note: if you react to slow you will go into a spin, it must be done fast. If done fast enough you can practically slash four times on the SPOT. You'll never move more than a meter and will have done about 140 damage in about 2 seconds.

BIGGEST HINT EVER:
Why run from him slashing? Just step outside his range, not far away from him. It's like, someone swings a punch at me and I lie down on the floor to avoid it, when I could have just moved my head out of the way. You want to stay as CLOSE to the enemy as you can without entering his range. This range thing isn't a problem if he is using light or medium, cause you can just block. All you need to do is walk backwards (yes walk) and look directly at him. Only one or two of his hits will ever get through.

ANOTHER HINT:
Someone using light to endlessly combo you? Just block the idiot until he kills himself on your saber, or hurry it up with aforementioned tactic.

LAME BUT EFFECTIVE HINT:
Force pull, followed by the kick. You can do this over and over again, effectively kicking people to death in zero time. Especially good against:

-Drain (if you react quickly)
-Lightning
-Guns (you pull all his guns this way too)
-Grip (especially to pull people after you when they try to drop you)
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Old 04-18-2002, 03:57 PM   #57
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Damn that Nill guy isn't a fool, he actually seems to know what he's talking about. I'll be sure to test this out (especially the pull your gripping opponent to death with you - that should teach them

Now I don't say sabercombat is utterly random, but even a skilled fighter will depend more on his luck than he should. In normal shooters I'd say skill matters about 90% while in JK Sabercombat it's hardly more than 75%. But then of course in normal shooters you have to get your guns and you could call it random bad luck if you get killed repeatedly just because there are no guns. While in JK everybody gets equal chances in sabercombat - everyone has one from the beginning.

But even so, I still say it IS improvable. Maybe we can settle on this?

Oh and I gotta agree with Solo on this one:
It is a jousting and it is less accurate as I would like (due to the strange collision detection probably)
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Old 04-18-2002, 04:29 PM   #58
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I admit it could be improved, but then again, what could not be?

Make Quake 3 have a whole new set of weapons. Make Pamela Andersons lips less scary. Make saber combat in JK1 better. Make Quake look like Quake 4. You can ask to make anything better like this.
No One Lives Forever is a crappy game, how about someone mods it until it is a different game that is cool?
Get my drift?

If the saber collision detection was better, then this game would totally own anything in my opinion. And some better blocking animations for MP... But that is all in the future and we have to be happy with what we have got now. Saber collision is currently the way it is because there is too much information to be sent down the line for the collisions. So, you would get sabers going though eachother and then suddenly bouncing back. Or killing someone when they actually blocked, cause your sword just continues.

Since about a million people have poted an idea for the Die By The Sword style of control, I think people who suggest it again should have their thread closed ASAP. Die By The Sword was funny, but sword combat was a zillion times more random than JK2. You couldn't actually block properly, cause you had to parry in exactly the right direction. Matches quickly became a case of swinging your sword from left to right and hoping for the best. It was still funny though...
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Old 04-18-2002, 04:46 PM   #59
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To the person that says they love it so much and that is why the want to "improve" it... that is utterly ridiculous.. since the saber system is FINE as is.. you cannot presumably just speak for everyone when you claim how poor it is.. If you think any of the stances are luck, you have no practiced enough. If you 1on1 me and think you have a 50% chance every round due to "luck"... you will be VERY disappointed...
...also, locks suck because it just goes down to button mashing.. that is why it does not occur frequently... and if you go against people with medium style vs medium style, you block very often if you face them and dont attack... against heavy style, the medium style is not supposed to be able to block very frequently.. but it is so clumsy that if you know what you are doing , you should be fine.. and if not, then switch to heavy stance and show them how it is done... i hope you know that you could force push heavy stance users to the ground whenever they are mid-swing because it is so slow.. and if they try the attack, followed by the jump attack, just force push them mid-air.. simple... If they changed the saber system due to a few people who haven't gotten the handle, they would lose a lot of customers, including me. I bought the game, practiced, and learned how to play the game well.. and you want them to remake it for you because YOUR opinion is that it is poorly done? If someone wants to respond that this is MY opinion... yeah, it may very well be, however, THIS IS THE WAY THE GAME IS... I am not being self-righteous enough to want to change it because I don't like it...
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Old 04-18-2002, 06:34 PM   #60
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Nill the Mean- I flamed you in another thread about "Who is the Best" I recind that, you, unlike most people know what's up.

Posternutbag- Let me explain this clearly so we don't have to hear your overused cliche "self-righteous" anymore.

What I proposed is that the current saber combat system stays the same. STAYS THE SAME.

In addition to NOTHING CHANGING with the current system, I thought adding a free saber movement mode would really add to the control in fights. So big deal, people are discussing ways they think the game can be improved? Some people agreed with me, some didn't.

Do you hear me telling people "NONONO! You don't understand this is how it should be!." um no.

Everyone has a right to express their opinions, and discuss them until their faces turn blue. People like you that can only say "Stop *****ing" "This is the way it is, get used to it" blah blah blah just end up sounding like uncreative oppressive jerks.

So carry on as you will, but the irony is that you are the one sounding "self-righteous."
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Old 04-18-2002, 06:37 PM   #61
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Thumbs down

IMO, Saber combat is fine as is.

- Gaeb
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Old 04-18-2002, 06:50 PM   #62
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Right, Nil, I don't doubt your skill in multi-player (although your attitude probably needs some tuning) but I take some issue with what you say. You claim that the saber system doesn't need to be fixed, it's the fine the way it is. You say over and over again that if you don't like something, go away. You say, don't speak for the majority.

Guess what. The majority don't like the sabering in multi-player.

You point out that there is more depth to sabering in multi-player then just wild slashing and hacking. This may be, but it's a skill that is cumbersome, not fun to use, and a hell of a lot worse then the single-player skill package.

The hints you pointed out, which aren't really hints:

1) The anti-gun one is acceptable. It's a useful hint for n00bs. However, it doesn't involve sabering in any way, so rendered redundant when you are talking about sabers.

Quote:
Some guy runs around me slashing in heavy stance. I'm standing still, looking at him. After he runs around for a bit batting at the air like a frustrated child, he finally steps towards me, at which point I step back a tiny bit, avoiding the blow, and then strafe past him in MEDIUM (yes, shock, horror) stance slashing at him.
2) This backs up my point. To overcome the cumbersome combat system, you use tiny exploits. You aren't cheating. You have found ways to find victory, and they are all perfectly okay, and probably involve skill in pulling off. But basically, your always trying to overcome the combat system with tricks like that. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a system that didn't require that?


Insert a witty and thought-provoking quote here, I can't think of any.
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Old 04-18-2002, 06:52 PM   #63
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Cmon Eternity, you can't call those "exploits" in any form.
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Old 04-18-2002, 06:55 PM   #64
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Quote:
You point out that there is more depth to sabering in multi-player then just wild slashing and hacking. This may be, but it's a skill that is cumbersome, not fun to use, and a hell of a lot worse then the single-player skill package.
If winning were easy, everyone would be doing it.

Single player has no lag. Fear the lag.

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Old 04-18-2002, 07:01 PM   #65
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I call them 'exploits' in the context that you are using them to get over the cumbersome combat system, yes. Not like 'I'll use the overhead slash because of a bug that allows me to gain health' kind of exploit.

And I know the single-player system would cause lag. That's why I propose a modification that only allows it to people who want it with broadband connections and limited people...

EDIT: Oops, I used the wrong quote, that's probably why. I was talking about the one when he was explaining the '4 slash attack'...


Insert a witty and thought-provoking quote here, I can't think of any.
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Old 04-18-2002, 07:18 PM   #66
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The 4 slash attack takes a lot of timing and practice to get good at though. I think its legit.
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Old 04-18-2002, 07:44 PM   #67
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I think I have a good grasp of what the dilly is here so allow me to say: almost everyone is on the right track in this thread now.
We've agreed that it does take 'skill' to master the saber. I certainly agree that any mod which employs some form of VSIM like control would be really cool to mess around with. I think people sort of lost track (as you said) of that this is a mod idea, not some required patch that is trying to be imposed upon those that don't want it. There is nothing wrong with adding to this game, hands up who wants more JK2?
I see too many people using sabers in MP to believe that sabering is unpopular amongst the community. Sorry, I just can't buy that.
And all games have their little exploits... once we all know them then the fun can really start.
As for an attitude tuning... hehe, I like me just the way I am. But don't hesitate to shut me up if I'm out of line.
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Old 04-18-2002, 08:11 PM   #68
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Yes there are some things that NEED to be changed and some that WOULD BE NICE if they change it.

1.Collision detection NEEDS to be changed. Biggest flaw in MP sabering.
2. A tighter control. the moves are too uncontrollable to execute them reliable due to the long feedback slope they build in (keyboard mainly). Tighten it and it would be better.
3. The randomness in MP is a two edged sword...BUT...if you would practice a bit and see that all swings that are direct in some form (forward, strafe left and so on) are NOT random in effectivness, then you wouldnt complain (maybe even whine).
Did you ever think of it, that it was intenionell, so that some of those hyper reflex coordination fellows cant cut YOU up in a mere second, but can miss due to the randomizing 1 in 10 times? I bet not.
Btw, the swings are not THAT far of the line they are supposed to go. Life with it. Master it.

Last note. The mouse contolled saber idea is not that bright. You may have more control over the saber (good luck with blocking) but you can scrap the control of your feet (talk about evading). It will render you defenseless and will boil down to the fastest trigger finger. Grats, you just ruined a great game )
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Old 04-18-2002, 09:42 PM   #69
posternutbag9d9
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 23
Finally, something I agree with.. collision needs to be tweaked.. however, it is very hard with people with various pings and stability... The people that claim the "majority" doesn't like sabering must be thinking along these lines, "i dont like it.. and the people in one thread on one site on the internet dont ....so it must be the majority!"... since over 100,000 people own this game, it is ridiculous to ASSUME that the majority doesn't like it... there are plenty of saber only servers, and on non saber only, a majority play the saber... so they must like it... I love the complaints by the people who suck with the saber though.. just makes the victories online even more satisfying... there is a much greater difference between the skilled and unskilled saber users than there is in fps games...Makes it more satisfying to the skilled...
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