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Old 05-13-2002, 02:00 AM   #1
crazyplaya73
 
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Question Why is there no FORWARD STAB in JKII????

I don't get why there is no front stab move in JKII? This move should be there. Think about it. If we have a back stab why no forward stab???

It makes no sense. I would love to see all of the stances have a forward stab. Logically a forward stab should have more power then a back stab. So it would be great if they could lower the damage for the back stabs and create forward stabs with as much power as the current back stabs.

This would put an end to people fighting with there backs to eachother. It is utterly stupid that the stongest swing is a swing behind your back. Its impossible. I'm not against it and I use it myself but we need a forward stab move added to the game. Please Raven.
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Old 05-13-2002, 02:45 AM   #2
Boreas
 
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It is an extremely common fencing move, but do Jedi in the movies use it?
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:07 AM   #3
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I dont think so. They use the backstab though, sort of. (Maul v Qui Gon, final blow)

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Old 05-13-2002, 03:31 AM   #4
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I wouldn't mind there being a forward stab, but I don't agree with it having more power. These are light sabers after all, lightly touch them to stuff and it goes through.

I think there should be less variance in the damage that moves do and instead more focus on a wider variety of moves that you would have to strategically utilize in order to get your saber to get around your opponent's and cause damage. Although with the speed of light saber battles it would probably still end up with the majority moving around randomly hoping to accomplish the move they need.

Such as... instead of giving strong higher damage you make it more able to knock your opponents saber further out of the way/for a longer period of time and have it less phased by such knocks from lower stances, which I believe it is like to a degree - but that should be what it's more focused around. In the case of strong versus strong which person gets knocked would be random, a 50/50 chance, producing a different kind of risk when fighting strong with strong. There shouldn't really be uber high-damage-causing finishing moves but instead fancy moves that are more prone to throwing off your opponent's attempt at defending/blocking.

Maybe it's silly, oh well.

That's all,
-Kaotic
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:42 AM   #5
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No I don't think it's silly at all. You're right kaotic, the stances shouldn't matter when it comes to damage, but that's the way it is. Raven wont do such a radical change at this point so only way to see that implemented is to make a mod for it.
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Old 05-13-2002, 01:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
I dont think so. They use the backstab though, sort of. (Maul v Qui Gon, final blow)
Why won't a Jedi try this move in the Star Wars universe? If they figured out how to do a back stab don't you think that they would have discoved the forward stab? I'm pretty sure that someone performed this move in at least one Star Wars movie.

I could see a combo where you have to double tap the forward key and press attack when someone is in front of you. It would leave you open for a few seconds before the move starts to balance it out. There has to be a risk and a reward for all special moves.
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:10 PM   #7
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If you want a forward stab, I guess the closest thing to it is the light stance forward lunge.
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Old 05-13-2002, 04:16 PM   #8
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It would probably get whored to hell.kthxbai.


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Old 05-13-2002, 05:10 PM   #9
ShockV1.89
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Well, so far the lunge hasnt really been whored. Briefly a few weeks ago, but not really anymore.

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Old 05-13-2002, 05:18 PM   #10
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Actually there is one Jedi that uses a stab, parry, riposte style of fighting. That jedi is ...(watch the movie). If the movie is the same as the book ....(watch the movie) will use an archaic form of saber fighting (fencing). The reason most Jedi now do not use a form of fencing is because against blasters it is pretty ineffective. Against other sabers though it is superior in every way(as you will see in AOTC).


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Old 05-13-2002, 06:13 PM   #11
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Strong stance does have a forward lunge stab move, but I've only done accidently.
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Old 05-13-2002, 07:05 PM   #12
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Actually, Luke uses a forward lunge in RotJ (its when he goes crazy at vader). He lunges at vader, but vader parries it.
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Old 05-13-2002, 08:17 PM   #13
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My 2 cents...

I say forget the damage period! Give the lightsaber a set amount of damage no matter the stance. You don't see in the movies or anything that when you hit a Stormtrooper a certain way, more comes off. A lightsaber goes through things. Period. Forget this multiple hit thing. Make solid contact, you get cut in two. You lose limbs, etc. You die. Simple as that.

Take for example Luke and Vader in ESB. He loses his hand. Not because Vader used any special stance, but because the lightsaber made contact with his body.

I find it absurd that you can cut holes and such in walls in the game, but it takes multiple hits to defeat a foe with the lightsaber (I'm SURE plasteel, ferrocrete, transparisteel and the other substances are hardier than good 'ol hide!).

My two cents.
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Old 05-13-2002, 08:33 PM   #14
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Lunges

Well in real life lunges are one of the most effective attacks, but it also has a high risk involved. When you perform a lunge it is easy to divert this attack with a proper parry, which could lead to a counterlunge or cut in response...

however, even with this being said, I am a strong supportor of a foreward lunge move, and I like the combo of button pressed you mentioned (foreward, Froeward +attack is pretty good).

But in the same vein what about a downward stab?

In truth on the battlefield and not in a duel or something, only a fool fights only with his weapon... you would be using other moves, and parts of your body to get ANY advantage. Real sword fighting and fencing ARE two differnet things entirely. Since Star wars is fantasy though some form of fencing is more enjoyable to watch and take part in... Be it kendo or the european fencing arts.

In real life in a real life or death fight I wouldn't limit myself to parries, blocks, and other weapon only moves... I would be grappling, throwing, punching,kneeing, locking, ETC. (all effectively Hand to Hand moves) in addition to using my weapon...

Remember the weapon is an extension of the self. If you only fight with your weapon you will lose to someone who has mastery of the ultimate weapon, the mind body and soul.

the point is, when someone is on the ground wouldn't you stab into them? not just try horizontal or vertical slashes? wouldn't you kick them? stomp them? honorable or not, even honorable men use these tactics in real life...

So I say yes put in foreward lunges... Make all thrusting moves onlymarginaly more powerful than swings (backstab does the damage suitable for the style it's being done in not more not less), foreward thrust would be very similar...

I also agree it needs something to balance it out... Perhaps make it easily parried. Like I said, unless you have been properly set up for the thrust, a lunge or thrust of any kind is dangerous, in some ways more so than a cut or hack. maybe in a lunge you have a reach advantage, but the move itself when it isn't set up with an initial attack has a low chance of scoreing against a skilled enemy who can bat it asside, and lunge back, or hack your arm off...

thus I think thrusts need to be easily parried, but perfect for finishing moves...

What this means is, as someone said, make each style break the gaurd of another style with a different effectiveness. the blue stance for example would pretty much be useless for breaking a guard, but yellow and red would be increasingly good at it.

In this example say your on guard... I use a heavy red combo, and break your guard for a second, then switch to light style for the jab/thrust as you recover from the broken guard.

thus I say the fronst stab should have improved damage if it's a light stance move only, doing more like yellow damage, or even medium red damage. However as I said make it easy to deflect, and make it so a deflected lunge opens you up to a sick counter blow in return. Meaning it couldn't really be spammed since you would have to break someones guard first, THEN use it.

As for the ground stab? Well with the pull + backstab manuever being so spammed, I think making another move useful for targets lying down is a bad idea... too bad really.. would be a cool looking finisher (you stomp on the enemies chest to hold them down then thrust your saber into them with both hands).

anyway thats all for me today


We all have to die, the only question is... Do you want it on your feet? or on your knees...
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Old 05-13-2002, 11:57 PM   #15
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Lightbulb cuts thrusts and other things that will get you killed...

actually cuts cause more damage than thrusts, and cover marginally more distance, BUT are easier to parry.

why? its much harder to accurately change the direction of a cut, whereas when thrusting it is very easy to deceive (drop underneath or other wise avoid) a parry

the reach from a cut vs thrust isnt significant. And you cant attack someones wrist when they lunge without parrying or sidestepping.

The significant disadvantage of a lunge is that (the longer ones that can truly qualify as a lunge) it leaves you motionless as it finishes (more or less depending on your skill and physical abilities. This leaves you open to counter attack.

Of course in the real world it is perfectly common for someone to lunge, expecting to be parried as they set-up for a counter riposte. It is referred to as second intention and is one of the most effective techniques.

However the defender can have the same plan, doing a simple (or relatively simple) riposte expecting the counter-riposte so that they in turn could counter-counter it.

On and on and on. This is the mental game of sword work.
What is intentional, what is fatigue and what is simply a lapse in concentration?

Quote:
Originally posted by CybrSlydr
I say forget the damage period! Give the lightsaber a set amount of damage no matter the stance.
Yes I agree, the damage the light sabre does should only be mitigated by range.
(more or less deep)

Quote:
Originally posted by Aoshi
Actually there is one Jedi that uses a stab, parry, riposte style of fighting. That jedi is ...(watch the movie). If the movie is the same as the book ....(watch the movie) will use an archaic form of saber fighting (fencing). The reason most Jedi now do not use a form of fencing is because against blasters it is pretty ineffective. Against other sabers though it is superior in every way(as you will see in AOTC).
actually a block is a block. There wouldnt be much difference between styles in relation to blasters. Parries are mostly the same across both eastern and western styles of fencing. The riposte methods and targets are different, but in reality the western styles are more drawn out, have more feints and deceptions, where as the eastern styles (Japanese at least as there is a far greater difference in other eastern styles than in the western forms that have mostly merged) are more quickly lethal often to both parties.


IMO thrust (and actually the quick men {vertical} cut common to kendo) should both be standard moves for all stances. The difference should be in the speed that they are executed, which should be the difference in the stances.

Yes there are (quite often) times when a slower cut is most appropriate as is often illustrated by older fencers to 18 year olds with stronger legs but less developed handwork.

The two most important factors in ANY form of combat are timing and distance. Technique only matters after that.


-----------------
it cuts.
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Old 05-14-2002, 02:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaotic
I wouldn't mind there being a forward stab, but I don't agree with it having more power. These are light sabers after all, lightly touch them to stuff and it goes through.

I think there should be less variance in the damage that moves do and instead more focus on a wider variety of moves that you would have to strategically utilize in order to get your saber to get around your opponent's and cause damage. Although with the speed of light saber battles it would probably still end up with the majority moving around randomly hoping to accomplish the move they need.

That is really the way it should be. It is funny that you can whack someone in the head 4 times with a saber really fast and not kill them, but do it once really slow and they die...
There should be 3 separate styles...STYLES as in style of fighting and choice of moves, not choice of damage.
It would over complicate the saber system to have one style with a hundred different button combos for each swing. Each style should have it's own separate animations and swings. As for speed, simply give the faster swings less range and the slower ones longer reach (speed up red stance a little, with equal damage it will need a slight speed boost).
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Old 05-14-2002, 03:44 AM   #17
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I also am all for the one damage for all moves,school of thought. I would much rather see each "style" have it's own set of moves. Same set of command inputs for simplicity sake. But a unique set of moves for each style.

However I feel each hit should do about 100 points of damage, rather than instagib. That way on average it will take 2 hits to kill. Up to four if the person happens to be lucky enough to be 200 health, 200 shields...

My .02 credits...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-14-2002, 03:46 AM   #18
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And oh yeah, I am all for a forward slash/stab, but I think the delay should be in the recovery time, not the wind up. After all, you can block or dodge. This way the usefulness of the move is not butchered yet it still has it's risk. Quite the risky proposition with high damage, or instagib lightsabers...


I love a good fight...
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Old 05-14-2002, 04:04 AM   #19
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The entire lightsaber physics are off, especially in episode 1...Ok, Qui-gon sticks his lightsaber through the blast doors, and melts them in seconds....

Darth Maul stabs Qui-gon, leaves saber in him for a few seconds...

Since strong metal has a much higher boiling point than water, that means Qui-gon would have litteraly exploded from the inside-out.

So, the only reason a stab, or backstab would be more powerful, would be the heat factor of the saber, and extended contact with the victim.

-Parallex
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Old 05-14-2002, 04:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaotic


Such as... instead of giving strong higher damage you make it more able to knock your opponents saber further out of the way/for a longer period of time and have it less phased by such knocks from lower stances, which I believe it is like to a degree - but that should be what it's more focused around. In the case of strong versus strong which person gets knocked would be random, a 50/50 chance, producing a different kind of risk when fighting strong with strong.
I was thinking about this the other day though - except that I don't think it would work, with the stances being the way are now. In the current light or medium stance, it should actually be easier to parry an incoming blow, since you are in a more defensive position - just look at where the sabre is held in heavy stance and you can see that it's not a defensive position; you're all primed for attack with no thought to defense.

In addition, in 'real life', big swings are not particulalry hard to block or parry - partly because you can move in such a way to use the attackers momentum and force against them - i.e. a 'little' parry can move the sword a long way with a heavy attack.

I think the current system, whatever we think about its comparison to the 'reality' of Star Wars and the actual effect lightsabres should have, is best for gameplay and dynamics. It's quite balanced (some say not perfectly, but it is balanced nonetheless) and it lends itself to a variety of techniques.

Maybe in Jedi Knight 3 (or if someone made a realistic-sabre mod) we can expect a more 'real' style of lightsabre fighting - but what we've got is good for the game we have now.
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Old 05-14-2002, 04:57 AM   #21
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On the other hand, if your swings connect in mid-air, and it's a heavy swing vs a lighter swing - the heavy swing should win out - and maybe only go to a sabre lock if it's two equal stances.

My previous post was in the context of a swing connecting with a non-moving sabre, i.e. still in the basic stance.
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Old 05-14-2002, 05:01 AM   #22
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I see your point, but the light stance is supposed to be the best for blocking attacks.

Something for the next patch perhaps
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Old 05-14-2002, 05:13 AM   #23
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Lightbulb your first lesson

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Tim
In the current light or medium stance, it should actually be easier to parry an incoming blow, since you are in a more defensive position - just look at where the sabre is held in heavy stance and you can see that it's not a defensive position; you're all primed for attack with no thought to defense.
ROTFLMAO!
but the red (edit: YELLOW if the blade was a bit straighter) stance as is right now is approximately the same as chudan no kamae. the first and most basic stance in kendo.

its primary purpose? when properly established (wrists about 2 fists length from the hara {stomach or center point} and with the tip directed roughly between the opponents eyes-throat area {mostly toward the throat, but varies slightly depending on relative height of attackers.}) offers no openings to be attacked from, while still allowing a fairly quick non-telegraphed attack to the primarily vulnerable areas,(wrists, head, waist in that order usually) as openings appear.

(edit) ----------------
ok duh. lack of sleep and not having had a chance to play the game for 3 days, one was picturing the yellow stance while writing that.

the RED stance is closer to hasso no kamae. which IS a very agressive stance, but not because there is no thought to defense but because you are offering hidari-kote (left wrist) to be attacked so you can counter attack.

an agressively defensive posture of sorts..

Last edited by Sartori; 05-14-2002 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 05-14-2002, 05:26 AM   #24
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Post

[
QUOTE]Originally posted by Parallex Jedi
The entire lightsaber physics are off, especially in episode 1...Ok, Qui-gon sticks his lightsaber through the blast doors, and melts them in seconds....

Darth Maul stabs Qui-gon, leaves saber in him for a few seconds...

Since strong metal has a much higher boiling point than water, that means Qui-gon would have litteraly exploded from the inside-out.

So, the only reason a stab, or backstab would be more powerful, would be the heat factor of the saber, and extended contact with the victim.
[/QUOTE]

the "exploding from the inside" could be debated for ever, so i wont go there, but what would theoretically make a stab more useful is that if it hits, even in the slightest, as you return to your guard position you could also slash.

the technique (no longer taught in modern sport fencing or kendo) used to be to bring your blade parallel to the earth as you thrust and withdraw to avoid possible entanglement with the ribs (in case you needed your blade again suddenly for his friend )

with lightsabres able to cut thru anything, and the "shock moment" you would likely get from your victim, you could do more damage on the way out than you did on the way in, effectively finishing your opponent.
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