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Old 05-17-2002, 09:23 PM   #1
Topdan
 
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I have a problem with Count Dooku

Ok, I take for granted that Palpatine = Darth Sidious and that Count Dooku is Darth Tyrannous.

At the end of the movie you see those 2 meeting and Palpatine says to Dooku that he did a goob job. At this point, I realized that Palpatine told his apprentice Dooku to form a separatist alliance (called the federation of independant planets, I think). Then the Republic would see a threat to the unity of the Republic.

So Palpatine is the one who really controls the separatist movement. And he used the threat of separatism to have the senate vote all the powers to the Chancellor, by fooling Jar Jar, who replaced Amidala... Everyone follows me on that ? Here comes the clone army, that Palpatine was aware of that someone (safadias, not sure of the spelling, but the jedi that died 10 years ago...) ordered to be made by the people of Kameno, the water planet. So the army took 10 years to build and when it was ready, Palpatine managed to have the separatist movement growing and the senate vote all the powers to him so he can rule...

As of here, everything is clear in my mind.

The problem I have with Dooku is that he tells Obi-Wan (when Obi-Wan is prisonner in the magnetic thing) that someone from the dark side is controlling the senate. Why would he give such a hint to Kenobi. The direct result is that Obi-Wan tells the Jedi council and they agree to watch the senate more closely...

Any ideas on that... Am I off track ?


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Old 05-17-2002, 09:30 PM   #2
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Dooku actually names him by name...

he says something to the effect of ~The Republic is under the control of a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious~

I don't know why he would use his actual name, unless Palpatine doesn't think that it matters if they know his name... everything *is* going according to his plan apparently... but perhaps Palpatine is using the Jedi order's arrogance against them. If they're going to keep a closer eye on the senate, they'll probably end up not liking some of the senate's decisions, and try to stop them. The senate will perhaps therefore try to act against the Jedi.

Darth Vader does wipe out all the Jedi after all... perhaps Palpatine and the senate order the disbanding of the Jedi council/order... and then Lord Vader is sent to deal with those who resist.

btw, James Earl Jones is already slated to be the voice of Darth Vader in episode II according to IMDb.com... thise excites me grealy... YaY Lord Vaer


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Old 05-17-2002, 09:38 PM   #3
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Maybe Palpatine wants himself to be revealed to the Jedi.
Is it also possible that Dooku is not that faithful to the emperor and really wants to build a real separatist movement (to become the rebels in the original trilogy)...

I really don't know. The fact that the trade federation turns on Palpatine (weren't they allies in TPM) and accepts to join the separatist movement, is also really weird to me.

Another thing that bothers me is that the separatist movement is the one who think about building the death star, not the Emperor.

This whole political twist is to be answered in Episode 3, I guess.


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Old 05-17-2002, 09:39 PM   #4
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Well, there is no way that Obiwan or any other Jedi could ever suspect that Palpatine was actually Darth Siddious. The dark side is too clouded for Jedi to see any of that. Obiwan probably cast it off as an attempt by Dooku to turn him (Obiwan) to the dark side.
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:42 PM   #5
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But... there is a real speratist movement... being manipulated by Count Dooku... who is under the command of Darth Sidious... and yes they are the ones responsible for the Death Star's plans...

But... BOTH factions are under the control of the future Emperor Palpatine. so, in a way, the Death Star is his idea.. or the idea of someone under him... they just don't know they're working for him... and thats why Dooku brings the plans to the Emperor.

And the Trade Federation didn't turn on Palpatine... They were never working for Palpatine... they were working for Darth Sidious (I know they're the same, but I don't think the Trade Federation does...) and in this movie, they're still working for Darth Sidious, under Darth Tyranus.

(Actually, I know the Trade Federation doesn't know that Lord Sidious is Supreme Chancellor Palpatine... in The Phantom Menace, he's their adversary)


Let not your anger blind you, rather, let it consume you, and in the purity of your hatred will you find the deaths of your enemies. Long live Emperor Palpatine!
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Old 05-18-2002, 01:18 PM   #6
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The Reason why Dooku want Obi to join him.

It is simple why Dooku want Obiwan to join him to defeat Darth Sidious. In the sith there can be only 2. A Master and an apprentice. (Because some 2000 year ago there were many sith and they destroyed each other thus Darth Bane created this rule.)

Thus, It is the nature of the Sith that if the Apprentice wants to become a Master he must defeat his master. However the master will always withheld knowledge from his apprentice to ensure than he is always more powerful then his apprentice.

Thus the only way an Apprentice can become a master is to find someone esle to join forces with him and together defeat the Dark Master. Once the Master is gone He would be come the Dark Master and the other guy become his apprentice and would serve him as he serve his master.

This is the same reason Vader wanted Luke to join him and defeat the emperor thus Luke will become Vader's apprentice and they would rule the galaxy forever.

And this is the same reason Dooku want Obi wan to join him.

The Dark Master knows that the apprentice cannot be trusted thus when there is 2 sithlord he would get them to fight each other and let the victor be his apprentice by killing the other, thus as the Emperor said to luke as vader lie defendless on the death star floor, "Now full fill your destiny and take your father place at my side." Cuz there can only be 1 Apprentice.


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Old 05-18-2002, 01:35 PM   #7
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Re: The Reason why Dooku want Obi to join him.

Quote:
Originally posted by IRG_GhostBear74
It is simple why Dooku want Obiwan to join him to defeat Darth Sidious. In the sith there can be only 2. A Master and an apprentice. (Because some 2000 year ago there were many sith and they destroyed each other thus Darth Bane created this rule.)

Thus, It is the nature of the Sith that if the Apprentice wants to become a Master he must defeat his master. However the master will always withheld knowledge from his apprentice to ensure than he is always more powerful then his apprentice.

Thus the only way an Apprentice can become a master is to find someone esle to join forces with him and together defeat the Dark Master. Once the Master is gone He would be come the Dark Master and the other guy become his apprentice and would serve him as he serve his master.

This is the same reason Vader wanted Luke to join him and defeat the emperor thus Luke will become Vader's apprentice and they would rule the galaxy forever.

And this is the same reason Dooku want Obi wan to join him.

The Dark Master knows that the apprentice cannot be trusted thus when there is 2 sithlord he would get them to fight each other and let the victor be his apprentice by killing the other, thus as the Emperor said to luke as vader lie defendless on the death star floor, "Now full fill your destiny and take your father place at my side." Cuz there can only be 1 Apprentice.
BINGO DUDE! I was just about to explain this to everyone, but you did it for me! It's not that hard to understand. It is a natural urge of the Sith to want to gain power, therefore the master can never fully trust his apprentice.
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Old 05-18-2002, 03:06 PM   #8
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Now if only this would have been ultimately that clear when I saw it in theatres......


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Old 05-18-2002, 05:25 PM   #9
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Wink Dooku is plotting..

Palpy has nothing to gain, Dooku wants a rising star, (and already a Master) for his apprentice so they can wrest control from Sidious. He does it the same way Vader does: he makes himself look good.

"I must stop Darth Sidious..."

"Lets us end this destructice conflict, and bring order to the Galaxy!"

The only difference is that Dooku does it better, and retains the moral highground (tho Obi knows he doesn't really have it) while vader so just wants to rule with his son.

Dooku also uses the respective mentors to try and turn them: "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father..."

"Qui-Gon would have followed me..." Obi knows that they were both mavericks, but he also knows his master wouldn't be fooled.

Dooku is also more charismatic. "Qui-Gon spoke highly of you, I know the truth and must stop it..., etc"

Vader: "Let us kill the emperor, crush the rebellion and slag off your master... Oh, and you'll probably need something for that hand I just severed... Oops."


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Old 05-18-2002, 10:10 PM   #10
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Lucas did an excellent job in creating the anakin tie-in. If you haven't quite got it yet, Anakin/Vader is not the smoothest character. He is powerful, but not very smooth. Take for instance his clumseyness with women, his brash actions and impatiant attitude, and also as the last post pointed out he is very blunt. Not political at all. You can totally Anakin in Vader.

COOL


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Old 05-18-2002, 10:27 PM   #11
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Its not too difficult to understand why Dooku told Obi wan about Darth Sidious controlling the senate. At that point in the movie Obi wan was not aware that Dooku had fallen to the dark side, and Dooku tries to keep him from learning the truth about him by pretending he is working against Sidious/dark side, and trick him into joining the separatists. Essentially Dooku is also trying to confuse the Jedi and sow mistrust between the senate and the Jedi council and further weaken the republic.
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Old 05-20-2002, 04:21 AM   #12
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You don't think that Dooku told Obi Wan about Sideous in order to "Hide Things in Plain Sight"?. I mean - Obi tells Mace and Yoda about what Dooku said about Sideous controlling the semate, but who would believe what comes out of the lips of a Sith Lord?

What more evil thing could a dark lord say than the truth?

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Old 05-20-2002, 12:24 PM   #13
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I don't know why you assume Dooku was letting something slip - he assumed that if ObiWan did not join him, he was dead meat anyway.
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Old 05-21-2002, 05:19 AM   #14
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Ani/Darth aint too bright.

Obi-wan and the council are smart, but they are being played, obviously by someone more cunning. But Av8tor is on the right track about Anakin. I think the dark side isn't just for the rash. It's for the foolish. It's foolish to take the easy way, and Ani seems a bit doltish. He's a bit dumb and thus easier for Sidious to manipulate. I think we'll see him get twisted right into becoming bitter, hateful and finally killing Amidookie and everyone in sight. But remember, even Palpatine couldn't see all fates in the end.
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:10 AM   #15
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Sidious...

I agree that Dooku/Tyrannus revealed that a Sith was controlling the Senate in order to hide what was in plain sight. From the way it came out of Dooku's mouth, one would think that maybe there was a Sith Lord behind the scenes somewhere using some mind tricks and coercion to take control of the Senate. No one would suspect that by "controlling the Senate" Dooku really meant the Chancellor, who coincidentally has emergency powers now. The Jedi Council may be watching the Senate more closely, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that the Sith have already clouded the Jedi's vision. It clearly isn't all that important to Sidious that the Jedi know his name, because they still have no clue how to find him.
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Old 05-21-2002, 06:56 AM   #16
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Actually from evrything written in the book and said in the movie Douoko was a still a jedi when found out about the information from nute gunray of the trade federation te years ago.
Also as indicated nute gunray knew that sidious had some control in the senate sonehow. As was said he was betrayed, or abandoned by sidious.
Dokoou stated that he tired to warn them but they didn't listen.
This could of been when Doukoo went on his own to form the sepratist movement (read prelude to attack of the clones}thus being banned from the jedi order.
However because of receiveing info from Bute gunray im sure he knew that darth maul had died, and maybe Dokou thought he could get closer to defeating the sith by infiltrating their ranks.
Giving to the darkside and going by the sith alias tyrannus


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Old 05-22-2002, 06:33 AM   #17
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hmmm i think maybe dooku is under instruction from sidious to seduce obi to the dark side. dooku knew very well that if he ever try to rebel sidious can sense it. do u all ever notice that sidious or palpatine always like to say everything is going on as i have forseen. dooku said that a sith lord is controlling the senators but he never say whether internally or externally. maybe obi and the jedi council assumed externally as they are too proud to admit that they cannot sense that a sith is controlling the senators without they themselves sensing it. as u can see during the first part of the show yoda and windu is just sitting in front of sidious but y can't yoda sense it. bacause sidious is even more powerful that him. even dooku the bingo dared to challenge yoda for a fight but when he see sidious he is just like a dog. remember what yoda said to luke in dagobah. do not underestimate the power of the emperor he is the one who made ur father suffered.
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Old 05-22-2002, 06:33 AM   #18
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hmmm i think maybe dooku is under instruction from sidious to seduce obi to the dark side. dooku knew very well that if he ever try to rebel sidious can sense it. do u all ever notice that sidious or palpatine always like to say everything is going on as i have forseen. dooku said that a sith lord is controlling the senators but he never say whether internally or externally. maybe obi and the jedi council assumed externally as they are too proud to admit that they cannot sense that a sith is controlling the senators without they themselves sensing it. as u can see during the first part of the show yoda and windu is just sitting in front of sidious but y can't yoda sense it. bacause sidious is even more powerful that him. even dooku the bingo dared to challenge yoda for a fight but when he see sidious he is just like a dog. remember what yoda said to luke in dagobah. do not underestimate the power of the emperor he is the one who made ur father suffer.
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Old 05-22-2002, 06:38 AM   #19
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what kf6tec said is true those jedi nerds only know about mind tricks. they did not suspect that the reason is as simple as the chancellor himself.
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:28 AM   #20
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Allright first: Palpatine isn't Darth Sidious! Its the same actor! I dont know why lucas made The Emperor and Sidious looking as the same, but that is what i think! But where are Count Dooku, and Sidious, when Palpatine is the emperor? Did he killed them? We would know it on EpIII....


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Old 05-22-2002, 10:35 AM   #21
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Palpatine is Darth Sidious.

Darth Sidious is the Emperor.

Nuff Said.

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Old 05-22-2002, 04:08 PM   #22
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Don't be silly. Of course Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Episode I made it so obvious, even a three week dead gangrenous hippopotamus could figure it out. Come on! Besides his comments about controlling the senate there was: "Which was destroyed? The Master, or the apprentice?" then the camera moves slowly onto Palpatine and there is a dramatic sting in the music. Duh! How could anybody not know they're the same person? Even my cat figured it out!

As for Dooku, I'd probably go with the plain sight argument. To get Obi-Wan to join him, he would have to turn him to the dark side. Fighting Sidious would not do that. He would still be fighting for jedi reasons. With Vader, he made it no secret about the dark side. He was trying to get him to turn to the dark side as much or more than he was trying to get Luke to join him. I can see why some people might think that Dooku could turn out to not be a sith afterall, but he had too many dark force powers for me to buy that argument.

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Old 05-22-2002, 10:15 PM   #23
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Sidious

All these takes are definitely possible. The thing that really confuses me is how a career politician can become a Dark lord of the Sith. What kind of time could that person have to train himself (or be trained) vs. Jedi, who spend their time from practically the womb doing nothing but training and gaining experience?

The only way I can rationalize it is that somehow there are two Palpatines (clone?), or a Sith "soul" takes control of Palaptine at some point.
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:19 PM   #24
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....and

I almost forgot another thing, which is that Palpatine is probably a native of Naboo--- the happy, happy, joy, joy planet of the Galaxy.

How does someone like that even get introduced to the dark side? Clearly not everyone on a happy planet is going to be happy, but the odds seem against it. The person would have had to be a heavy interstellar traveller, which would probably make his/her ability to mount a political career difficult.
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Old 05-23-2002, 06:09 AM   #25
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aiya so simple. palpatine is by right a sith lord so in order to secure power he just join naboo and from there become a senator lar. u don need to be born in america to be a american citizen right? as for those nerds who still don believe that palpatine is sidious, let me the sith master guide u padawan to http://www.theforce.net/episode2/characters/scroll down and look for palpatine. they will put supreme chancellor palpatine aka darth sidious

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