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Old 05-22-2002, 06:14 PM   #41
Nathan Wind
 
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in a game that scores off of kills and nothing else, whoever gets the most kills has the most skills. bottom line.

In this game, you are either a cannon or cannon fodder; hunter or prey. The only difference between killing a hunter and killing prey, is in bragging/flamming/humiliation rights.

3 undisputable facts

afk kills are available to everyone
people who have health can be killed
people afk are relatively rare in the grand scheme of things
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:26 PM   #42
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in a game that scores off of kills and nothing else, whoever gets the most kills has the most skills. bottom line.
Well, following that line of logic, people should just DL hacks and aimbots and get the highest score possible. Thats the bottom line, after all. Who cares how they got there?

I also take it you had no problem with the DFA bug? (read, BUG) I mean, being killed by a sabre 6 inches underground is ok, since all that matters is kills, right? Right?

Quote:
afk kills are available to everyone
people who have health can be killed
people afk are relatively rare in the grand scheme of things
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here... game hacks are availible to everyone. So are AK-47s and nuclear weapons. That doesnt make them right, does it? (well, ok, nukes are allright... )

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Old 05-22-2002, 09:32 PM   #43
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it is not my logic that is the problem, friend.

re-read and re-think what you wrote.

if you need help understanding me, ill be happy to post descriptive and illustrative analogies
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Old 05-23-2002, 05:29 AM   #44
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/me rereads his post three or four times.

Erm, I still feel the same way. The bottom line is never, EVER that simple. Nothing ever is.

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Old 05-23-2002, 07:05 PM   #45
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but it is that simple. truth be told, the only thing that is hurt is variety.

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here... game hacks are availible to everyone. So are AK-47s and nuclear weapons. That doesnt make them right, does it? (well, ok, nukes are allright... )
You are trying to make a moral argument. In a game, morality is based exclusively on winning. Wheither winning has to do with aim, strategy or point allocation, winning is still winning, and to consistantly win takes skill.

I only play on pure servers.

However, you made a point about hacking programs and how they were available to everyone.

If hacking the game is the factor in winning, then hacking becomes a skill and whoever can hack the game the best wins.

Conversely, shutting out hackers also becomes a skill.

Hell, if being blind ass lucky is the determining factor in winning, than being blind ass lucky becomes the DETERMINING SKILL.

AFK kills were never the factor in winning, and when they became one, then yes, afk kills require skill, as in who can get the most the most efficiently.
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Old 05-24-2002, 01:05 AM   #46
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If hacking the game is the factor in winning, then hacking becomes a skill and whoever can hack the game the best wins.
......



Riiiiight....

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Old 05-24-2002, 06:27 AM   #47
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Thumbs up

I agree with Nathan mostly. I myself do not kill someone typing a message. I myself type sometime to communicate with others in a game. But I know that it is my responsibility 100% to protect myself. Because nobody else has the resposibility to protect myself in a FFA game. So if someone comes near me w/ intent to kill, I hurry up with the typing and continue my play. I don't blame the guy for trying to kill me. It's a game of war folks. It's unwise to let your defenses down. Who once said that BTW?
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Old 05-24-2002, 07:08 AM   #48
Luc Solar
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This is amazing..

Nathan Wind, I completely disagree with everything you have ever written on these boards. Every post, every sentence, every word. Amazing. I sure hope we never meet in real life. LoL!

Btw - here's one word for you, look it up sometime: ...FUN.

Yeah; "FUN". As in "having a good time" or "enjoying a GAME".



Got Honourz? Great.. I hope you choke on it!

I r0xx0r all j00 nooberz that mess with me. You nooberz suXor out of my way or I eat j00....

Most ridiculous Quote of the century: >)O(< ENmiTy: promoting mindless FFA and SD kills promotes disorderly conduct amoung the online community.
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Old 05-24-2002, 07:23 AM   #49
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Erm, I gotta agree. What's the point of 'being the best' if it's no fun? Jeez, we buy games for entertainment.

Another lamer for the list: someone called ST-Bob. He DFA's repeatedly, and if he can't hit you with it, he'll pull a janitor pull-backslash combo. When I complained he said 'learn to avoid it', which I could; I beat him about 3 times earlier when it was only me against him. But he ran into corridors of people, and then used DFA, and then backslashed everyone else, all of whom were stuck in the corridor.


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Old 05-24-2002, 07:31 AM   #50
Luc Solar
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Quote:
Originally posted by defalc
Erm, I gotta agree. What's the point of 'being the best' if it's no fun? Jeez, we buy games for entertainment.
Yeah...but still we got these "Nathans" on every server and thread who just DOESN'T GET IT.

FUN. FUN. FUN. FUN.

And if your "fun" means that no-one else in the game has fun (cheating and such lame crap) then you are an Ass.

It's very simple, really...that is all there is to it.


Got Honourz? Great.. I hope you choke on it!

I r0xx0r all j00 nooberz that mess with me. You nooberz suXor out of my way or I eat j00....

Most ridiculous Quote of the century: >)O(< ENmiTy: promoting mindless FFA and SD kills promotes disorderly conduct amoung the online community.
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Old 05-24-2002, 10:19 AM   #51
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I used to not kill people who had their saber down or were talking. But times have changed.
I was in a saberfight with another guy and I was winning. He lowered his saber and the chat bubble went up. I waited and he said nothing. Chat bubble went away and he drained me and eventually won the fight. The worst part is that he beat me because I was a sucker.
The next time we fought it started out the same way, the chat bubble went up...but this time I cut the SOB's head off. He protested and I told him why I did it. He denied the earlier encounter but I knew.
My new moto that I live by is "You are unwise to lower your defenses"
Look at my name, it even says Darth. I am evil. I don't care anymore if your saber is up or down, chat bubble up or not. If I see you I am going to try to take you down by any means necessary. If you don't like it too bad. Vote kick me off server? Works both ways, I can vote kick you too. Of course I've never been kicked before...

Bottom line is if you are gonna chat go into specator mode or IRC or somewhere that I can't find you. Because if I do then you're going down.
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Old 05-24-2002, 11:20 AM   #52
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When playing ffa or ctf online, there is only 1 motto : Kill 'em all.

On duel I fight with honor, and always NF.


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Old 05-24-2002, 11:32 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luc Solar
...if your "fun" means that no-one else in the game has fun (cheating and such lame crap) then you are an Ass.
DAMN STRAIGHT! I couldn't have put it any better. I mean, sure, if you like running around backwards, looking like an ass and gaining the disrespect of the entire community, there's something seriously wrong with you. If you get so much of a kick out of it, try doing that in real life.


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Old 05-24-2002, 12:03 PM   #54
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It also takes away from other peoples fun when they have to continually try to appease all the whiney bitches who go "YOU N-----! I WAS RECHARGI...I MEAN...TALKING! YUO FAGOT I HATE YOU I WANT YOU TO DIE!"
So I just ignore them and kill everyone. Enough is enough. If it's somebody I know then maybe I won't kill them. But otherwise they go down.
I find it more fun to completly make these *******s pop with their anger than to allow myself to become aggravated.
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Old 05-24-2002, 12:20 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by *Darth Vega*
It also takes away from other peoples fun when they have to continually try to appease all the whiney bitches who go "YOU N-----! I WAS RECHARGI...I MEAN...TALKING! YUO FAGOT I HATE YOU I WANT YOU TO DIE!"
So I just ignore them and kill everyone. Enough is enough. If it's somebody I know then maybe I won't kill them. But otherwise they go down.
I find it more fun to completly make these *******s pop with their anger than to allow myself to become aggravated.
Heh, sorta true...when one dude kept spamming backstab I just sat in a corner when he came and hit him when he was open...repeatedly...he left me alone after that.


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Old 05-24-2002, 01:25 PM   #56
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I dunno, there are certain situations in which type killing is ok. That situation with the duel is one of them, Darth. I'd be pissed too. But I wouldnt extend that anger to everyone. After all, the majority of players out there dont pull nasty tricks like that.

Yeah, if somoene pulled that on me, it'd be DFA, pull/sweep, typekilling bonanza on his ass. PO him to no end.

One situation I know I would kill a typing opponent is if he was in the middle of a big sabre/gun gangbang. I'd be sayin "Dude, your an ass..." and cut him down just cuz he's in my way. But if I come around a corner and theres a guy hiding in the corner, sabre off, obviously trying to keep out of the way, with a chat bubble over his head: I'll leave him alone. I'll probably meet him later anyway, kill him then...

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Old 05-24-2002, 03:04 PM   #57
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Seriously, I don't think this is that difficult of a subject.
There are weapons in a game to use, if you are killed by some metod which was put into the game to be used to kill people then I don't think you can complain (I'm refering to complaining about saber-throwing and guns mostly). However, if you, for some reason must take yourself out of the action for a few seconds or minutes, and it is obvious that the you have made an effort to remove yourslef from the action, I don't think that anyone has a right to kill you. Typekilling, afk killing, whatever, its just plain old ****ty playing. If you do it to me, whatever, but I know and you know that it was a kill that really means absolutely nothing regarding your skill, you might as well use cheat codes if you're looking for free kills like that. On the other hand, if you are sitting there, out of commission for a while, don't expect to be alive when you're ready to play again, and don't complain about it, because it is part of the game. In my experience, most really good players won't bother with a kill like that, so if you see that someone did that, go kick his ass.

I'm out.
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Old 05-24-2002, 03:12 PM   #58
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Quote:
In a game, morality is based exclusively on winning. Wheither winning has to do with aim, strategy or point allocation, winning is still winning, and to consistantly win takes skill.
LOL
Nathan,

Game or not, morality has NOTHING to do with winning. It has everything to do with your conduct, your actions, and your ideology. It's not weither you win or lose, it's about HOW you play the game.

mo·ral·i·ty (m-rl-t, mô-)
n. pl. mo·ral·i·ties

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
3. Virtuous conduct.
4. A rule or lesson in moral conduct.
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Old 05-24-2002, 04:17 PM   #59
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I guess it all comes down to whether or not people want to be moral in a game. Do I? Yes. Am I dumb? Apparently to the people who "speed kill", but not really. Some people want to just win in life by any means. Some people don't want to win life by any means but feel it is fair in video games. Some people want to be moral in life and video games. No big deal. It pisses people off, but only because "it's their way or the high way"(bing called a lame whiner noob). I get mad when people start attacking me while I'm readjusting my force powers, but then I get out of the menu and push 'em off a ledge. If the game isn't limiting in the way it is played, than it will be played in all ways that are possible. Some people play "honorable" some people play to win. This is true in game and out, and if you can't accept it your in for a big surprise in real life.
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Old 05-24-2002, 09:48 PM   #60
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Is there really anyone who think it is very fun to chop down people with no defense on, people who, for the moment, cannot defend themselves? You know, there is a word for those kind of people: Suckers
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Old 05-25-2002, 06:50 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by HandsomeDan
I guess it all comes down to whether or not people want to be moral in a game. Do I? Yes. Am I dumb? Apparently to the people who "speed kill", but not really. Some people want to just win in life by any means. Some people don't want to win life by any means but feel it is fair in video games. Some people want to be moral in life and video games. No big deal. It pisses people off, but only because "it's their way or the high way"(bing called a lame whiner noob). I get mad when people start attacking me while I'm readjusting my force powers, but then I get out of the menu and push 'em off a ledge. If the game isn't limiting in the way it is played, than it will be played in all ways that are possible. Some people play "honorable" some people play to win. This is true in game and out, and if you can't accept it your in for a big surprise in real life.
We can accept it in real life. But we play games to escape from the world every once in a while. Which makes it really crappy when people are more whorish in a game than they are personally. Some people might want to win quick in games, but if it isn't fun then its pointless. And as stated earlier in this thread, if that's your idea of fun then you're a jackass.


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Old 05-27-2002, 04:30 AM   #62
Nathan Wind
 
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1. your definition of morality applies to what i said. this game gives you a pat on the back and a gold star for kills, ie killing is a virtue.
2. afk killing is stupid for one reason. if you are going to be afk, then you shouldnt be in the game. there is a spectate mode. you dont have a character that stays in the game, dying over and over again when you are at job or school. if you are afk, thats trust in everyone else, and you dont have any room to complain.
3. if a game scored points off bowing and loving one another, i wouldnt buy it or play it.
4. If playing honorable is in no way synonomous with winning, then you are playing a dirty game.
5. You can make your own server with your own rules.
6. You dont have to play with people who are bastards. This is always true.
7. you can vote people out or leave at any time.
8. If playing does not involve winning and loosing, then it is not a game.
9. If bastardrey equates to winning (and that is a sad thing), then superior bastardrey is the goal.
10. If 9 is true (which i dont think is the case with jk2), and you dont want to play a game with bastards, then whatever your playing is not a game.

Last edited by Nathan Wind; 05-27-2002 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 05-27-2002, 04:53 AM   #63
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Is chivalry dead?

Whether you are a light or dark Jedi, the saber code demands that you give your opponent courtesy when his saber is lowered. Dark Lords do have a code of honor, just different from the Jedi. I personally have never had this problem, but just my $0.02.
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Old 05-27-2002, 04:57 AM   #64
Nathan Wind
 
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saber code is bs
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Old 05-27-2002, 07:15 PM   #65
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We can accept it in real life. But we play games to escape from the world every once in a while.
Listen friend, if you play games to "escape from the world" then... you're probably not alone, but if I were you I'd get out more. I play games for the CONTEST. It's an ARENA, in which the rules are fixed.

Someone said earlier in this thread that 'if you're just in it for the score, you may as well hack the game,' as if that were the same thing. Hacking the game is breaking the rules and therefore it makes the playing field uneven. The whole point of a game is to hone and demonstrate your skills by winning, but in a level playing field.

This is a game, a contest, a piece of exciting diversion. It's SO up to people if they want to pretend to be real Jedi, bow (squat constipatedly) before duels, rant about how the sabre is "teH onlaAY ohnorable WEAAOPN!!!1" or whatever. But the fact remains the game is a game, a contest and a playing field on which one pits one's skills against other human opponents. It's a game of skill, it's about skill, and winning the game.

1.03 has ruined the game for serious competitors, and whether they know it or not, it's taken a lot away from everyone who plays the game.

1.03 has introduced many cheap moves. For example the pull/backswing combo is a one-hit-kill, when it wasn't before the patch, because it now hits several times in a single strike causing maximum damage, whereas pre-patch the first hit moved the opponent a short distance away from the backswinger, meaning further damage was impossible unless the opponent was prone and/or backed right into a corner.

The force powers are now imbalanced, lightsiders like myself reign supreme while darksiders may as well be flicking navel lint at us.

To quote one of my old friends: "It's all gone pear-shaped."


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 05-28-2002, 04:28 AM   #66
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I was the one that referred to hacking the game. I was referring to Nathans line of thought. Under his idea of fair play, it was ok to hack the game and use that to gain kills, as the only thing that mattered was the bottom line, which is number of kills gained.

My statement...
Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here... game hacks are availible to everyone. So are AK-47s and nuclear weapons. That doesnt make them right, does it? (well, ok, nukes are allright... )
His response...
Quote:
If hacking the game is the factor in winning, then hacking becomes a skill and whoever can hack the game the best wins.


And Kun, I try to follow the sabre code, but only when my opponent does. I'll do the bowing thing if they do, but I know there are douche bags out there who will exploit other players beliefs.

Nobody HAS to use the sabre code, do it if you want to. But dont scream when someone else doesnt, its purely a personal preference.

Always bow with your sabre up.


Quote:
It's a game of skill, it's about skill, and winning the game.
Totally agree. But notice there the word skill. Is killing someone with their sabre down and a big blue bubble over their head skill? I mean, did you have to practice that? Did you spend time perfecting that technique? Yeah, sure, about as much as the l33t backstab. Anybody who thinks that type kills are skillful is fooling themselves. (and I'm not accusing you, Spider.)

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Old 05-28-2002, 06:02 AM   #67
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........um...... how do u bow, btw¿¿¿.........and how do u taunt??......i really dont know yet........only had the game a few days.... thanx in advance 4 tha help.....not 4 the flames....
hehe.....my 2nd post Woohoo!!
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Old 05-28-2002, 08:32 AM   #68
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even with all your quotes, my point stands.

by including hacks ak's and whatever, into the game, you are changing the rules. You are creating a new rule set. under that rule set, a set which includs hacking, then hacking becomes a skill.

but in reality, the game does not include hacking. hacking is most certinly not available to everyone. the fact the you would liken it to afk killing, which IS in the game, is redicilous.


seriously, think about it in terms of ffa and not duel. you are competing for first with someone. you are tied. he kills afk player and you dont. that becomes the determining factor and he WINS. the fact that those same kills were available to you make all the difference. those kills, and the win, could have been yours. but he had the skill to take them.

is this so hard to understand?

and in no way did my line of reasoning imply that i was for the hacking of games.

but if playing dirty is what it takes to win, whoever can get dirtiest wins. getting dirty is then a skill.

anyone who cannot see this is living in a fantasy land
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Old 05-28-2002, 12:39 PM   #69
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Quote:
but in reality, the game does not include hacking. hacking is most certinly not available to everyone. the fact the you would liken it to afk killing, which IS in the game, is redicilous.
Nathan is absolutely right Shock. Any attempt to liken hacking to ANYTHING people think is cheap within the game is laughable, hacking is not within the ruleset and therefore is not legitimate. Anything WITHIN the ruleset is legitimate. It's definitely the tendency of many sabres-only-squat-before-a-duel types to liken DFA, backswing (or whatever else) to hacking, but the two are so far apart... It's really just them whining.


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Old 05-28-2002, 01:16 PM   #70
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Quote:
but he had the skill to take them.
WHAT? He had the skill to kill that AFK player? I dont think you see MY point. Killing the afk player DID NOT TAKE SKILL. In no way whatsoever was that skill.

Look at it this way: When you look at the final scoreboard, and you're just one or two kills over the 2nd place, placing you in first, you think back in the fight. Hey, you typekilled someone twice. Now can you look at that scoreboard with the same degree of satisfaction as if you had made those two kills with skill?

If so, well, I wish I could see the world in black and white like you do. But its not that easy.

And I know that afks dont always result in that sort of situation, but even then, its just a stupid way to kill someone.

And I never said I supported the whole bowing thing. I do it if the opponent does, but am always careful of them to jump me. I do get annoyed if you both turn your sabres off, you challenge, and he jumps you.

And the hacking thing was in response to Nathans idea of "If it gets kills, nothing else matters."

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Old 05-28-2002, 01:43 PM   #71
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ugh, your thinking is set to duelist.

and my attitude wasnt "If it gets kills, nothing else matters."

it was, kills=skills
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Old 05-28-2002, 03:32 PM   #72
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kills=skills?... not always. Is a type-killing a skill?

Quote:
but if playing dirty is what it takes to win, whoever can get dirtiest wins. getting dirty is then a skill.

anyone who cannot see this is living in a fantasy land
Maybe it's a skill some of us don't need.


Vestril was here!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-28-2002, 06:29 PM   #73
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perhaps its not so much skills, but smarts. While it is not smart to run around with light stance waving a saber around in a guns server, it does take a lot of skill to kill someone. While it does not take much skill to kill someone who is AFK, it is rather smart.

-HP
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Old 05-28-2002, 08:11 PM   #74
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smarts=skills.

vestril, i argued that it was
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Old 05-28-2002, 08:45 PM   #75
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Speaking as someone who never kills people who are typing (unless, as MANY people do, they fight me, get their health down to 10 points, run away towards the health packs and start typing as a shield) I can honestly say that typing long sentences in the middle of free for alls is STUPID. It's asking for death. When I type something in a free for all, I am PREPARED to die, because I'm INVITING it. If some dishonourable person kills me while I'm typing, I do NOT blame them, because I ELECTED to type. If someone kills me while I'm typing, it's MY fault, not theirs.

I don't kill people who are typing because it's cheap. Likewise I try to vary my sabre strikes from the perrennially useful backswing, and I try to use a wide range of weapons instead of just one...

But I do NOT expect, nor do I ask, nor do I attempt to force people to use MY personal code of honour. This is a game, and the wonderful thing about it (more so pre-patch) is the variety of styles of play.

Frankly, the people who kill other people while they're standing in a corner typing tend to have less skill than those who know they can win without resorting to such measures. But that's not always the case. Type-killing may be cheap, but it, and move-spamming are NOT hacking, they are not "evil"or satanic or all the other things some people call them. Believe it or not, there will ALWAYS be type-killers and move-spammers.

The problem with this version of JO is that move spamming in the form of pull/backswing combo, is the quickest, easiest and therefore the best way to win. DFA spamming was never that powerful. Imbalance imbalance imbalance.


[FW] Spider AL
--
Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:32 AM   #76
Elegy
 
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Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 355
I say screw all the opinions here, both sides. Honor shouldn't matter, nor should efficiency with "kill as much as you can, whenever you can, however you can and honor be damned!" What should matter is the server you connect to, and the rules they enforce. There are all sorts of servers for each type of player out there. And what should matter in a MP game is the rules that the server upholds. If a server doesn't specify that you shouldn't attack a man with sabers down or an afk sign above his head, then expect to get your ass reamed regardless of whether you're prepared or not. But if the server states that you gotta follow sabers down, etc., then you better ****ing follow that crap. There's a game out there for all of us, folks. Some servers are for the agressive, and some servers are for the refined. There would be alot less complaints if we all just stuck to the servers that supported the style of gameplay that we all like to enjoy.
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Old 05-29-2002, 02:48 PM   #77
Nathan Wind
 
Join Date: May 2002
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the funny part is, i dont even kill afk. i thought i made that clear earlier. truth be told, there arent that many opportunities to kill people afk. and when i die afk (about once or twice a round) i dont even care. my point was that afk kills, perhaps the cheapest of the cheap, are really only unfair in people's mind.
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