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Old 06-02-2002, 09:51 PM   #1
paulbob
 
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Post Simple Suggestions to Perfect JKII (Non-PlayBalance Issues)

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UPDATE:
This post is NOT about about the backswings etc. It's about the nongameplay balance issues that would help make JKII the perfect game that Raven set out to make. the I know it's a long post, but at least read the first few paragraphs and tell me what you think. Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated!!


//************************

Jedi Knight II is my favorite Star Wars game, no doubt about it. Overall, it's an awesome game. Sure, the game isn't perfect: there's still a few kinks that need to be worked out; by now, I'm sure you've encountered some gameplay issues, such as the backstab/backspin spamming, or at least heard of them on these forums. So instead of creating yet another post about those issues, I've taken it upon myself to focus on the small, tiny issues that could make Jedi Outcast even more enjoyable to play than it already is. Besides the general spamming of backstab/backspin/kickflip/saberthrow (and I've also heard complaints about absorb being too strong and Dark Side being "nerfed too much" in 1.03?), here's a list of all the small things I think would help perfect JKII, not only as a game, but as an engine as well:

First off, I just have to say kudos to Raven for the voting system. I have never seen such a well implemented voting system that makes it so easy for even a first time player to participate in voting. I just wonder: why stop at the current options available in the voting menu? Why not make every aspect of JKII voteable? Rule by the people, or in this case the players, would almost indefinitely make the gameplay experience more enjoyable. [ Don't like some tiny detail? Get rid of it! ] I've already mentioned a couple examples of things that could be included in the voting menu in the previous paragraphs.

The main aspect I'd at least like to see implemented, would be the voting to enable or disable certain guns or force powers. Such as in 1.02: where people thought the alternate fire on Repeater to be too powerful. A simple voting to disable that weapon would have fixed that problem indefinitely. Maybe a certain force power is too strong? Or everyone is spamming saber throw? Vote to disable it.

One problem I see frequently is that vote kicking doesn't work if the person about to be kicked changes his or her name. I find it very annoying, and I'm sure some of you may agree with me, to see an immature player cursing everyone out with the caps lock on, only to change his or her name right before the vote is about to end so that he or she doesn't get voted off the server. Kicking someone out of a server for whatever reason is an important feature to have. But if this small issue doesn't get fixed soon, everyone will know about it and votekicking will become useless.

On the topic of votekicking, why no votebanning? A simple ban or "ban for x minutes" under the kick option would be great. As I said, kicking a player for whatever reason is a good feature, but if they can come right back, what's the point? Banning someone for 15 or 30 minutes would be great. Or maybe multiple options for different amounts of time.

Next, I'd like to address one of the most disputed topics in all of JKII: killing people with their sabers down or while they are typing. I have a simple solution that may end this problem: invulnerability. Why not have it so that people who have had their sabers down or have been typing/using console for X seconds be rendered invulnerable? I say only after X seconds, maybe after 5 or 10 seconds, so that people can't just open the console right when they are about to be hit so as to avoid damage. And maybe make it so that people have to stay in one spot for the invulnerability to activate so that someone can't take their saber down for 5 seconds, walk up to someone and then kill them right after taking their saber out. And also, make invulnerability voteable via the voting system.

I can only see one problem that might arise from this: people that take their saber down and then use force powers such as grip and lightning. To end this problem, I suggest a solution that should be implemented anyways: inability to use force powers while a player's saber is down. When someone has their saber down, (to me anyways) it is an indication that they wish to refrain from battle for a few moments. Players shouldn't be allowed to take their saber down and make their opponents think that they are not fighting, and then push them off a cliff. As for guns, maybe have invulnerability ONLY when the saber is the chosen weapon and the saber is down. And of course, allow for voting whether or not players can use force while saber is down.

My second point of praise is the duel system. Whoever came up with this idea of letting two people in an FFA server fight 1 on 1 is a genius. Pure genius! But of course, there is much else that I'd like to see done with this. First off, why only one duel? Why not two? Or three? Or why not make a variable for this, and letting an admin decide on its value? And then making this value voteable via the voting system?

My next point about dueling is in CTF or TFFA servers etc. Why no dueling in these game types? I see no reason why not. Or instead, make this feature voteable so that the players can choose whether to have dueling enabled or not in these game types.

Also, how about making all other players transparent to duelers? It's very annoying when two people are trying to duel and then someone else comes along and sits there trying to hack away at the duelers (i.e. first time players). Or sometimes players try to get in between the duelers because they think it's funny to disrupt their duel. I think that once two people begin a duel, all other players in the server should either be transparent (ghost-like) so that the duelers can walk through them or all the other players in the server should instantly disappear. (But of course, non duelers should still be able to view the duel, whether or not the duelers can view them.) It would also be helpful if this idea was voteable via the voting system.

What about some indication for who is dueling who in FFA games? Sometimes I'd like to know instantly who is dueling who without having to ask (as the duelers certainly won't answer) or looking in the console and pressing Page Up a half a dozen times for the "Person A has engaged with Person B in a duel" message. Maybe something in the scores menu? The duelers' names highlighted in a certain color or their names put at the bottom or the top of the list would suffice. Or something similar to the current leader's picture and name on the right side of the screen. (And if increasing the number of simultaneous duels possible sounds like a good idea, it could be easily used in conjunction with this idea of highlighting the duelers' names in the scores menu with different colors for each pair of duelers.) And it would be good if people could vote via the voting system on which method to use or to use any method of indication at all.

Also, why not put the "Person A was defeated by Person B" in the console as well? Sometimes I'm fighting someone and I don't pay attention to the message that comes up on the screen so after I finish fighting I can look in the console to see who won.

And on the topic of console messages, maybe a few different messages for different saber deaths? I notice that there are a few such as being kicked, being killing by lighting, or being thrown to doom etc. But for being sabered, there's only one. I think it would be interesting to see something akin to the way Counter-Strike handles death messages. If not with the little pictures, at least with words. Something like "Padawan was caught in Darth Pimp's backspin" or "Padawan's head was split by Sith Doughboy's DFA". And with the rapidly growing community for JKII, I'm sure you guys will have no problem getting responses if you simply asked the community for ideas for each saber death. And maybe make these custom saber messages enabled or disabled voteable via the voting system.

For duel servers, I'd like to see a time limit for each duel. I.E. something like in fighting games such as Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter. More than once I've witnessed two friends come onto a server and when they face each other, they just sit there, laughing at everyone else because they can hold their duel indefinitely. It would be great if the admin could choose whether to have a time limit on each duel and decide on how long that time limit was. Or maybe if it was all voteable.

This brings me to another point. Why can't spectators in servers vote or call votes? I see no reason why not. Especially in duel servers where it only takes 2 votes to do anything. As in the previous paragraph, I've seen people come into a server and then start votekicking everyone else out. Sigh...

As for duel servers, I'm not sure if this is true, but when someone quits from a duel server, the next person in the list gets spawned in. But the person who stayed doesn't get his or her default 25 shields back. I say that I'm not sure because I have only seen this once, and I was the person who was spawned in second. The person who I was dueling told me that they didn't get the default 25 shields, only their life back to 100. If someone else can confirm this?..

A few more small things:
-The Darth Maul-esque dual saber: this needs to be taken off the cheats list and used more in general gameplay. Who wouldn't want to use this saber, or maybe two sabers at once, like Anakin in Episode II. Maybe make two sabers/dual saber a powerup or an item you can pick up like a regular weapon. Or maybe a gameplay type similar to Jedi Master but with these special sabers.
-Allow for downloading of maps from a server instead of giving the "error loading map message".
-Maybe an AT-ST map somewhere along the road? (although a mod would be just as great.. *hint hint*
-An option somewhere in the options menu whether or not to use the dueling music in FFA games, or to keep the map's music always running throughout
-In the options menu, a place to setup color names so first time players can color their names right away without having to enter a game and be laughed at when they ask how to do so.
-Some way to officially decline a duel challenge? I.E. something in the Esc menu to choose to decline someone's challenge.
-More skins, more saber colors, more name colors. I think we can all agree that's a good idea, right?


------

For a great, well-written post about the gameplay issues (i.e. backspin), go here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...threadid=58271
I agree with most of Areoch's ideas, especially the minor changes.

And if you haven't done so already,
http://www.oculis.org/asc/guides/retirement.html

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Thank you for taking the time to read my post. If you have any suggestions, comments, changes, or additions, feel free to post away!
-Soldier2200

Last edited by paulbob; 06-05-2002 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 06-02-2002, 09:56 PM   #2
BlackDove
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I'm not reading all that. Although good suggestion on the invul thing. Might work.....humm....but then you get idiots who when they are about to be hit, just press esc and make themselves invul. Whatever challenging move you do, you can always press esc, and get off the danger train.


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Old 06-02-2002, 10:26 PM   #3
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OMG! Intelligent Suggestions, I wholeheartedly agree. Not one mention of backswings being too powerful. Don't know how feasible these will be to implement, but I think they could work very well.
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Old 06-02-2002, 10:29 PM   #4
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*feels the thread is going to be about backswings*


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1. I kill you.
2. You cry for a lightsabre damage nerf.
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Old 06-02-2002, 10:40 PM   #5
paulbob
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
I'm not reading all that. Although good suggestion on the invul thing. Might work.....humm....but then you get idiots who when they are about to be hit, just press esc and make themselves invul. Whatever challenging move you do, you can always press esc, and get off the danger train.
LOL! I know how you feel, I'm pretty lazy to read long posts too. But at least try to read through the second paragraph. As you mentioned about pressing esc to get out of harms way, I addressed that. Read through that paragraph and tell me what you think? Your feedback is important to me

Thanks!
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Old 06-02-2002, 10:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
OMG! Intelligent Suggestions, I wholeheartedly agree. Not one mention of backswings being too powerful. Don't know how feasible these will be to implement, but I think they could work very well.
Thank you! I appreciate the support. Yeah, I tried to keep this as much as possible away from the backspin issues and all that. I'm also trying to keep it as simple as possible so that Raven can implement these ideas without too much trouble. Because as we all know, Raven is already busy on their next game...

Once again, thanks for the support!
-Soldier2200

Last edited by paulbob; 06-02-2002 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 06-03-2002, 12:31 AM   #7
Emon
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The problem with invulnerability is someone could turn their saber off then grip and lightning people to death. A better solution would be invulnerability when typing or in the menu or console, since you can't do jack there.


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Old 06-03-2002, 01:26 AM   #8
paulbob
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
The problem with invulnerability is someone could turn their saber off then grip and lightning people to death. A better solution would be invulnerability when typing or in the menu or console, since you can't do jack there.
You're right. I didn't think about that because I only play on No Force / Sabers-only servers. I'll update my thread. As for the second sentence you stated, I think mentioned that.

Thanks for the tip
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Last edited by paulbob; 06-03-2002 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 06-03-2002, 07:18 PM   #9
paulbob
 
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w00t! I emailed Raven the entire post and they emailed be back today:

Quote:
I will pass all of your feedback along to the team.

--Kenn

Kenn Hoekstra
Project Administrator/
Director of Support Services
Raven Software Corporation
http://www.ravensoft.com/
Hopefully at least a couple of these ideas make it into a future patch.

-Soldier2200
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:03 PM   #10
nauticalll
 
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you brought up some good points about gameplay. These really need to be addressed to balance out the game.
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:12 PM   #11
KnightHawk420
 
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Many good suggestions some mistakes, but overall good post.
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
The problem with invulnerability is someone could turn their saber off then grip and lightning people to death. A better solution would be invulnerability when typing or in the menu or console, since you can't do jack there.
Imagine stealing the flag in CTF, and then just standing there with talk on. LOL! That would drive people insane.
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Old 06-05-2002, 01:25 AM   #13
Soldier2200
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by nauticalll
you brought up some good points about gameplay. These really need to be addressed to balance out the game.
Thanks nauticalll. I wouldn't say that these issues have to be addressed to balance the game, but I really do hope some of them make it into a future version of JKII. Which points did you like the most? Any suggestions?

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Quote:
Originally posted by KnightHawk420
Many good suggestions some mistakes, but overall good post.
Thanks. Which mistakes did I make though? Any suggestions or feedback about a certain topic would help a lot!

------

Quote:
Originally posted by jarek


Imagine stealing the flag in CTF, and then just standing there with talk on. LOL! That would drive people insane.
That's a good point you brought up, but I would surely hope that there would be restrictions on invulnerability to prevent some of the more obvious problems that could arise such as that one (I.E. no invulnerability in Duel or Jedi Master servers, etc.). And if invulnerability was voteable as I suggested, players could quickly and easily vote to turn it off after they see that someone misusing the ability. Thanks for your input jarek!


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Old 06-05-2002, 03:51 AM   #14
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Making people invulnerable because they have their saber down is just stupid.

I like to run around with my saber down zapping people, as only then can I use rolls and not be overly visible.

It would detract from the feel of the game if people could just go invulnerable all of a sudden... imagine the people running off and standing still so they can regain force and heal themselves.
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Old 06-05-2002, 08:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boreas
Making people invulnerable because they have their saber down is just stupid.

I like to run around with my saber down zapping people, as only then can I use rolls and not be overly visible.

It would detract from the feel of the game if people could just go invulnerable all of a sudden... imagine the people running off and standing still so they can regain force and heal themselves.
Constructive criticism only please

Yes, people could just run off in the middle of a battle and heal themselves. Or they can run away and pick up some shield packs. But why is that any different from now?

-Soldier2200


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Old 06-05-2002, 02:30 PM   #16
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One problem with saber down = invulnerable is that some players might use this to allow their force to recharge. Simple solution is that when a player is invulnerable then they are effectively out of the game; can't move, can't use force powers, can't attack and force doesn't recharge.

btw nice to see an intelligent topic not complaining about 1.03/1.02/backstab/lamers/whiners/etc


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Old 06-05-2002, 03:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mallory Ringess
One problem with saber down = invulnerable is that some players might use this to allow their force to recharge. Simple solution is that when a player is invulnerable then they are effectively out of the game; can't move, can't use force powers, can't attack and force doesn't recharge.

btw nice to see an intelligent topic not complaining about 1.03/1.02/backstab/lamers/whiners/etc
You bring up a good point Mallory Ringness. That's a good suggestion. I agree with you on that 100%

Thanks for the feedback and the support!

-Soldier2200


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Old 06-05-2002, 03:48 PM   #18
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Post One possible problem with any invunerability thing...

... is I see people using it as a sort of "uber-block" so to speak. If someone see's an incoming attack that they can't avoid for some reason or another (they're already doing a slow attack/the attack is too fast/does splash-damage/ you're fighting someone with expert aim) or in saber battles if you want to get in a few quick hits with quick or medium stance while you're opponent is winding up the strong hit, but not take damage from theirs at all, just hit escape or such at the last second, then again as the attack passes through and jump back in the action... a sort of manual uber-block so to speak. I think that's why in all the years of these kinds of games being out with multiplayer, I don't think a single one of them actually impliments this kind of thing... Sure it's a pain and really annoying to get killed while typing or when trying to be honorable, but an invunerability could be abused even worse IMO...

My real suggestion for those with the typing/saber-down problem... Remember getting your saber out is as quick as hitting primary/secondary attack, and the attack happens as it comes out. If someone gets close enough to attack you with their weapon of choice and has it out facing you(gun from a distance or saber-on close), take your saber out as well and/or be ready with a back-flip. Typing is an unavoidable problem unless you're just saying your own catch-phrases and bind them, but remember, you're there to play more than talk. if I have something to say, I wait 'till I'm in a very quiet area or better yet, dead already, and I type concisely and am ready to hit escape to cancel if I see someone comming for me. When you need to change your settings, find a secluded place to do it and face a wall. You shouldn't be messing with settings too often anyways, as force powers only change on respawn (and you can change them while you're dead right before you spawn again), and what I do with "aesthetics" (models/saber-colors) is bind them to keys. I have personally 5 keys bound to my favorite models/skins and 3 more for saber colors (green for good, red for evil, and yellow for somewhere in the middle)

Wow, I typed entirely too much when expressing my concern... It's not that I'm totally afraid of Raven actually implimenting this, but they have shown us that they're willing to follow the mob rule in some cases rather than grit their teeth for the good of the gameplay. Though that backfired with larger, more angry mobs, and I have a feeling they became more scared about changing things with another patch and making potentially 3 factions which is why we haven't heard anything really about a 1.04... but that's another post in itself.
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Old 06-06-2002, 12:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Char0n
... is I see people using it as a sort of "uber-block" so to speak. If someone see's an incoming attack that they can't avoid for some reason or another (they're already doing a slow attack/the attack is too fast/does splash-damage/ you're fighting someone with expert aim) or in saber battles if you want to get in a few quick hits with quick or medium stance while you're opponent is winding up the strong hit, but not take damage from theirs at all, just hit escape or such at the last second, then again as the attack passes through and jump back in the action... a sort of manual uber-block so to speak. I think that's why in all the years of these kinds of games being out with multiplayer, I don't think a single one of them actually impliments this kind of thing... Sure it's a pain and really annoying to get killed while typing or when trying to be honorable, but an invunerability could be abused even worse IMO...
??

Quote:
Originally posted by paulbob
Next, I'd like to address one of the most disputed topics in all of JKII: killing people with their sabers down or while they are typing. I have a simple solution that may end this problem: invulnerability. Why not have it so that people who have had their sabers down or have been typing/using console for X seconds be rendered invulnerable? I say only after X seconds, maybe after 5 or 10 seconds, so that people can't just open the console right when they are about to be hit so as to avoid damage. And maybe make it so that people have to stay in one spot for the invulnerability to activate so that someone can't take their saber down for 5 seconds, walk up to someone and then kill them right after taking their saber out.
Thanks for reading my post, Char0n... (I think??) :\

Quote:
Originally posted by Char0n
My real suggestion for those with the typing/saber-down problem... Remember getting your saber out is as quick as hitting primary/secondary attack, and the attack happens as it comes out. If someone gets close enough to attack you with their weapon of choice and has it out facing you(gun from a distance or saber-on close), take your saber out as well and/or be ready with a back-flip.
Yes, I agree; taking out your saber right when you are about to be attacked can of course be executed quickly with one simple keystroke. But this is in no way fool proof. What about first-time players (I don't like the term "newbies") or players who don't have as quick reflexes as you do? Or what about someone who comes into the area where you are with his or her saber down as well; a seemingly harmless person. Then they stand right behind you and suddenly decide to backspin you? No matter how fast you take out your saber, the backspin can and most likely will kill you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Char0n
Typing is an unavoidable problem unless you're just saying your own catch-phrases and bind them, but remember, you're there to play more than talk. if I have something to say, I wait 'till I'm in a very quiet area or better yet, dead already, and I type concisely and am ready to hit escape to cancel if I see someone comming for me. When you need to change your settings, find a secluded place to do it and face a wall. You shouldn't be messing with settings too often anyways, as force powers only change on respawn (and you can change them while you're dead right before you spawn again), and what I do with "aesthetics" (models/saber-colors) is bind them to keys. I have personally 5 keys bound to my favorite models/skins and 3 more for saber colors (green for good, red for evil, and yellow for somewhere in the middle)
"Typing is an unavoidable problem... "
That's why I suggested the idea of invulnerability.

"...find a secluded place to do it and face a wall."
Yes, but again, this is in no way 100% fool proof. Remember that, in general, if you can reach a secluded area of a map, anybody else can too.

And besides, problems are made to be solved, not ignored.

"You shouldn't be messing with settings too often anyways... and what I do with "aesthetics" (models/saber-colors) is bind them to keys."
What about first-time players? How can you expect them to instantly know everything about the game to know what their settings should be upon joining their first server?
Furthermore, most first-time players don't even know how to access the console, let alone know how to bind model and saber color scripts to keys. Even some experienced players don't know how to bind aesthetics commands.

---

You make some good points, Char0n, though you lead me to believe that you did not read my post in its entirety, although I may be wrong. What do you think about any of the other points in my post?

-Soldier2200


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Old 06-06-2002, 06:22 PM   #20
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Kal-whiner wrote:

"humm....but then you get idiots who when they are about to be hit, just press esc and make themselves invul. Whatever challenging move you do, you can always press esc, and get off the danger train."

Kal-Whiner, your worse than those that do it, by posting how to do it on an open forum. I bet your just a troll who doesnt even play the game.

Hehe...whiner.
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Old 06-06-2002, 07:20 PM   #21
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Well expressed thoughts!

paulbob...

first off, yes, I read everything you wrote, all the way down. I won't claim to remember all of it in detail tho! But I like your ideas a lot. The only concerns I personally have is voting on every little aspect of the game. It would be hellish for the programmers to implement, and could lead to all sorts of screwiness. Also, each voteable aspect should then be a setup variable when setting up the server. (I dunno, maybe it already is? I'm not expert here.) But perhaps Raven already has this in hand. If so, LET'S VOTE!

Next, the invulnerability is a good idea, and a great idea if properly implemented. And thus, I launch into my 2 cents on this topic...

Invulnerability just by running around with your saber off isn't a good idea, for reasons expressed above. I do this a lot, just to tell people I don't want to fight, or that I will not pose a threat, I only wish to pass. Let's not implement invulnerability here. Let's continue to rely on common courtesy. If a player isn't courteous enough to recognize this, then kick/ban them. if no one on the server is this courteous, go to one that is, or keep your saber up as a defense.

As for invulnerability in chat or console, or the menus, great. Give the player in question that magnificent keyboard icon (BTW, Great idea raven!) and an invulnerability bubble, just the same as when a player spawns, so it's obvious they are protected. Though this presents another issue. Someone standing there, waiting for you to re-enter the game so they can strike you down as soon as your bubble is down, or otherwise conspiring to kill. For this reason, give the player 0.25 seconds of continued invulnerability AFTER they re-enter the game, during which time they cannot take damage, NOR can they CAUSE damage to another. This will give time for them to move out of harms way. Heck, this could go up to 0.5 seconds even.

As for hitting the ESC key to save your hide in the heat of a fight, I fully support a delay on the invulnerability kicking in. It really does not need to be very long though. 1 second is long enough that it won't stop someone's current attack, but they don't have to worry about someone running up 3 seconds later, when they're knee deep in typing or menus and hacking them up. In the case of being targeted by, say, a long range attack from a missile weapon, say it takes 2 seconds for that weapon's projectile to arrive, Raven should implement 2 seconds as the delay. The delay should not be longer than the time for a current attack to complete. At this time, the bubble should be visible, so players all know this person cannot be harmed, so they don't have to waste time hacking needlessly, then whining about it later.

Duelers having exclusive movement w/o other players getting int he way? I like this. It seems a bit campy to go etheral and clip through other players not in the challenge, but heck, it would solve a frustration. Then again, it's kinda rude to get int he way. I guess it's not a bad idea tho, to keep people from getting upset at other players who may be new to the game.

I don't think I've said anything here that doesn't go along with the original post. I whole heartedly agree. Very well articulated and written. I was especially pleased to see that Ken H. himself had given it his attention enough to comment. This is VERY encouraging, and I believe we'll be seeing some of your ideas in a future update. Good Job!

Okay, I think my 2 cents have been spent. Thanks for the mic.

TBJ


"Who is the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows it?" --Ben Kenobi
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Old 06-06-2002, 07:21 PM   #22
-Techno-
 
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You brought up some go0d points,
But on the saber down/invunerability, First off people should just NOT kill people who have there saber down talking, but it happens I KNOW, i think the invunerability is going too far, just vote him out, or get everyone to gang up on the chat killer! < I've seen that work alot> You could also go to spectate to chat safely. If the invunerablity is implimented, there better be a way to turn it OFF in the server cvar or to vote it OFF. but that's just my opinion!

I love the idea of the multiple dueling in a FFA game, it sux you have to wait for a duel to finish in order to start your own duel. I think it would also be cool to accept multiple players into one duel (so you could fight 1vs2 or 2vs2 etc. in one duel) what do you think?

Having the double bladed saber in the CHEATS only was a mistake in the begining, it should definitely be an option to vote on !!!

one last thing before i take off, JK II MUST HAVE A YODA MODEL AND THE ABLITY TO USE AT-ST's

i gotta stop typing before i get introuble at work, peace
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Old 06-06-2002, 08:36 PM   #23
RockerForceXV
 
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Post Bad ideas...

[NOTE: this is long, but it's all good stuff...very important that at least the original poster of this thread reads this all the way through]

Now while I appreciate the effort you put into these thoughts, and the conscious avoidance of the back-attack subject, these are clearly not the right ideas.

First of all, the invulnerability idea. I can all too easily imagine that being abused in a variety of ways, especially with some of the variants posted here on the idea. EXTENDED INVULNERABILITY, for instance, was one of the ideas here...because this fellow claimed that you could get attacked as soon as you come out of the console or chat or what have you. I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but I could easily imagine people with their sabers down gaining invulnerability, then using that second or so delay where it stays to allow them to free attack an enemy player.

I can also easily imagine two players getting into a duel and one of them going into chat for ****s and giggles.

I can also easily imagine people who use weapons, and open fire down a hallway on a saberist, only to go into the menus and achieve invulnerability before the saberist arrives to retaliate.

And speaking of saberists--adding the double bladed saber officially, and adding a dual saber mode, are both lousy ideas. That's mod material, not game material. it would be cool if Jedi Master were done better so that everyone had sabers/no force, and the one Jedi Master had full force and the double bladed saber, and only took half damage, or something like that...but otherwise adding additional "saber types," while feasible, is not a good idea.

One of the ideas I did agree with is the multiple duel idea. That would be cool--it would have to be a somewhat limited number, between 3 and 5 I think would suffice--but duels are popular because of the excessive use of force for BS kills (like the backstab).

The idea of making other players ghost-like, however, is not a feasible or interesting idea. In fact, not only is it tacky and unnecessary, but let's be honest--you're supposed to be a jedi. If some guy gets in your way, just move: it's really that simple.

I'm an avid dueller and I nor none of my friends have EVER been successfully bothered by someone sticking their nose between us. We either move, or the guy gets himself killed by not paying attention to others.

It's when someone comes on the server, trying to be all hardcore duellist, that this becomes a problem. There are guys--I suspect some of whom have posted in this very thread--who want to duel but don't like the waiting aspect of the Duel mode of gameplay. So what do they do? Hop on an FFA server...and walk around with their sabers down...and when they get someone's attention, they initiate a duel.

The multiple duel idea would be alright, although it's not really needed either way. Duellists need to learn that FFA matches have different etiquette--it's not about having a nicely choreographed battle anymore, and acting honorable. It's a big brawl, no two ways about it. Yeah, some real dishonorable **** happens, but it's not usually so severe that you can't just leave the server, and find another.

Or, if you are like me and some of the others out there, you learn to capitolize on the situation and turn the tables, instead--like a REAL jedi would do. Everytime someone tries to assfight me, for instance, it just allows me to rape the back of their neck with my saber or weapon of choice, for instance.

You adapt and develop to different play styles. You don't beg the company to change it around so it's more like the one you prefer. Just so everyone knows. :0)

Regarding the backstab, by the way--I don't mind it at all. It is counterable with moves that are just as lethal, most of the time. Even if pushed onto the ground, it can be escaped; it's most difficult to escape from if it is done in conjunction with pull or the flipkick move, however (A possible solution to this would be to make pull not knock you down, just move you towards the user. if you let them get close enough to get kicked then you deserve the stab).

Another problem with duellers is that...well, to be frank...they as a group tend to get used to 1v1 combat. So if they are in an FFA match (and believe me, there's one of these guys in every server on earth), and some guy dives into a fight and ends up getting a kill out of it (or sometimes even if he does nothing but die) the duel pro will snap on everyone because some guy was "rude" and jumped into "his duel."

If duellers want ONLY duelling, then let them play Duel servers.

Personally, if a guy jumps in my fight, I kill him too, but that's just me. Do or do not, there is no try, right? lol

Regarding voting on everything: some things seem good. I think the game should have server side options to disable certain weapons or powers, but not certain moves or animations or features...the game has to be static, it should not be so customizable that we can go from server to server and have to relearn everything. Then we'd have people building whole servers based on their individual preferences..."force jump is bs, you shouldn't be able to run up the wall...and the jump kick is gay...and no backtsabs...and I like my lightsaber view in first person and since I can't see behind myself in that view I'll set it so everyone has to default to it...and that one swing in heavy stance that always kills me, I'll take that out too..."

Incidentally, the day I go into a server that only allows first person lightsaber combat, I'm going to go on a shooting spree or frustration.

Or imagine some of these other VITAL scenarioes:

--The value for this invulnerability idea being tampered with...thus making the delay inexistent...pure server can't even protect from this kind of cheat. And the variable can easily be edited by the server admin, too...making people able to run servers and be invincible all the time without cheating.
--A vote is called for your sabers only/guns only match to make it have only guns and no sabers (or vice versa). You lose the vote...and you then have to leave and find another server.

Personally I think the fellow whos tarted this thread is just playing in the wrong places...I get typekilled occasionally yes, but the game is still going on in the background and usually my sound or the bright blade of an incoming enemy will tip me off to hurry up with what I'm doing.

Typekilling simply IS NOT that big an issue in this game.

Let's face facts--the multiplayer FPS/action genre has been around for some time now and made considerable strides. There is a reason why invulnerability has never been an option to fix any problem--it can be edited and exploited. It's bad enough that people can now bind a single keystroke to effortlessly do a complex attack that should require some skill to execute...but imagine what these types of players could do if along came an option for invincibility?

And the voting thing...imagine if you will, every five seconds, some guy voting to make the match saber only cause he keeps dying by gunfire/guns only because he keeps dying by sabers...or decides to vote out shields to make it easier to kill...or decides to shut off duelling...or a kick...or your most favorite swing...hell, why not just vote out the whole blue stance? See, most players are too busy fighting to vote, and it is easy to get these things done by one or two jerk players.

Imagine a combo of problems--these two jerks join some server and duel each other, making them invulnerable to all other players. They stick close to each other, and so the duel doesn't sever. They walk around voting off techniques and players repeatedly until eventually they catch everyone at a busy moment and only their votes go through. Imagine them voting the invulnerability delay to zero like that. Even if duels were time limited (not a fun option IMO, but it could be added as an optional configuration and not be so bad), they could just reduel every time it runs out and continue.

This brings up a whole other problem--the voting selection is IN THE MENU ITSELF...which means that these guys wouldn't even have to duel, they'd be invincible the whole time they were making the idiotic votes on these minscule aspects of the game.

Imagine someone voting the speed variable on the server to half its value...or worse yet, 4 times its value? Or voting the force power level up or down in midgame? It would be absurd.

This post basically suggests giving the jerk players the toys and trinkets necessary to achieve total godhood. I'm sorry to sound like a jerk but these are just my impressions, I meant no disrespect.

It just seems to me that you are maybe putting your personal experience at the front of the agenda, here.


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Old 06-06-2002, 09:10 PM   #24
Char0n
 
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Post My bad

Yes, I guess I missed the time-delay thing... I attribute it to probably posting late at night/the fact that I tend to skim posts as there are plenty of them to read.

The time delay seems like an interesting concept, but once again, not foolproof. I'm not sure how it would play out in JKII, but in other games it would probably be considered the camper's best friend. find a secluded place with a powerful weapon, go into standby, invul kicks in, when someone walks by they turn it off and attack. don't have to worry about watching your back. I haven't seen a real camper problem JKII (probably because sabers are just too cool to not use ;-) ) but just a potential thing.

"Yes, I agree; taking out your saber right when you are about to be attacked can of course be executed quickly with one simple keystroke. But this is in no way fool proof. What about first-time players (I don't like the term "newbies") or players who don't have as quick reflexes as you do? Or what about someone who comes into the area where you are with his or her saber down as well; a seemingly harmless person. Then they stand right behind you and suddenly decide to backspin you? No matter how fast you take out your saber, the backspin can and most likely will kill you. "

The way I see it is it's all a part of the learning curve. The game is based as much on skill as fun. Blocking with your saber up isn't a fool proof way of totally stopping a cheap shot either, but I don't think they should make all blocking 100% all of the time. Some New-folk might also not know the extent of splash damage on their own weapon or others, but it doesn't mean they should be eliminated to be "fair to those who don't know". These things that aren't obvious and make you think about what you're doing and develop a strategy are part of what makes these games so much fun.

As for free safety from a$$es and the like, remember you're on the Internet with many random people and maybe some you know. If some stranger who you knew was going around killing people stood next to you with a katana in real life, even if he wasn't specifically coming at you swinging, and maybe even had his sword in it's sheath, would you stand there next to him, or back off a bit? I follow the "don't trust anybody" philosophy, where as if someone has a gun out, my saber is out (I'm a saber/force purist player) and my finger is ready on pull/push depending on the weapon. If they have a saber selected, out or not, I don't let them within saber's length of myself. I simply back up or if they start swinging, so do I. I of course make exceptions to these rules, but only with people I've played a few rounds with, have maybe talked with between bouts, and feel I can trust. If they kill me cheaply, I don't make the same mistake a second time. It's just like real life in that sense. If you're naive enough to think everyone is going to be wonderful and nice and follow a certain ettiquite and not try to take advantage of you, you're going to get burned at some point, and probably badly. Be prepared for the worst and make the best of it :-)

For configuration, I hope that a new player would figure out after a few times of "These changes will take effect the next time you spawn" that messing with force settings when you're not dead is a waste of time. As for model/name/chat/sabercolor bindings, I sorta half agree with you that it sucks for new players. But once again that's part of the learning curve IMO. I only recently because of JO learned all the Q3A-ish commands for binding special keys (the classic newb "How do you taunt?" question got me that skill), changing models (back in 1.02 when you could be ghost morgan, that was the best, my fave skin, a pitty it's gone), and saber color. I figured it all was possible when I saw other people doing it, and I politely and simply asked them how. This I CAN'T stress enough. Sounding like what you just saw someone do made you piss your pants isn't the best way to get respect and an answer. instead of "D00D!!!!!! HOW DID j00 DO TH4T?!?!?!?! TELL ME NOW!!!!" try "Hey, that was pretty cool, would you mind telling how to me how to do that move?" Being able to switch models on the fly without risk and such is something I consider icing on the cake of learning the ins and outs of the system. It's fun to pace in front of someone and shift between a few models mid-pacing, or better yet bind waits and sabercolor changes so you get a color-wheel-flashing effect with your saber when you push a certain key. Sure some new people might not be able to do that and it could be considered an advantage, but I earned that advantage by asking enough people and when it didn't work, looking it up on my own. But maybe instead of just arguing my side I should make counter arguments/proposals.

My problem with the invunerability thing is I just hate invunerability in all of its forms in a multiplayer environment, with the slight exception of a hard-to-get, rare, and very temporary powerup(and that still is a bit sketch for my tastes), which is probably why I jumped on this with a "hold the phone" post. The time delay is good, I wish I saw that, but in addition, I think they should make it so you're in a menu and can't see what's going on around you, that is make the menus on an opaque background instead of overlaying them somewhat translucently. This way camping would stay a non issue, or any other unforseen abuse of this giving you a "wait 'till the right moment" invunerability as you couldn't see that right moment. Just be prepared when you jump back in, and if you worry about people waiting for you to come out and jump you, have it give you a second or two of invunverability when you come back when you can't attack either. I thought about letting it just kill yourself without losing a point, but then that had too many disadvantages (free jump from low to full health, depriving someone else of a well earned kill, losing all your weapons...)

Reiterating, the way I see it is give it a 3-5 second delay after you get into the menu for invunerability to turn on (long enough that you wouldn't be able to avoid an already incomming attack that would hit you), make it so you can't see what's going on around you when you're in the menus, and last 1 or 2 seconds after you got out, where you couldn't attack/force yourself.

As for your other ideas, I think they're good and can't really think of how to improve them (The menu's for voting on nearly anything is great, I had thought about that but never really saw it as something I would push for before other issues), except for banning being votable. Even a slight abuse of that IMO is far too much as a bunch of people who don't like the fact that I'm owning them while being honorable/see me using a move once and knee-jerk me as a "cheap XXX spammer!" can get a bunch of friends to join and ban me from a server I may frequent, and it would only get fixed the next time the person running the server happened to look in on it. Just keep kicking the cheap guy, he'll get the message and eventually it won't be worth him joining to be kicked but seconds later.

Except for the hard time actually implimenting a good-looking/working version of the double-edged/dual sabers, all the rest (Such as levels/skins/etc) are feasible and good ideas. Though since they only allow one duel per server, I have some feeling there's some deep stupid technical issue they can't work around that prevents them from allowing more than one duel per server. Oh, and you can set time limits on duel servers, I think it's right in the initial options when setting up a server in-game, and I've played on a few timelimited duel servers...

As for multiple duels, how about a sort of Rocket Arena for JO (or rather a "Saber Arena"?) It's basically running multiple duel maps with their own queues on a single server, and lets you jump between them quickly and easily. This usually consists of several small 1vs1 duel-type maps and 1 large team-duel map (team duel would basically be handled like a Last Man Standing game with 2 teams, and the last team with a person alive in it wins)? From what I've seen, it's all up to us now that we have the source code and Raven seems to have cut off real contact, so it's all up to the mod makers.
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Old 06-07-2002, 06:31 PM   #25
The Blind Jedi
 
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Hey Guys...

Nice additional comments I say. Tho i think there was a bit of discussion about a possible exploit that I thought I addressed. Therefore, I'm pasting a couple of my previous paragraphs again. Please be sure to read them carefully. if HTML works in here, I'll bold out the portions of special interest...

As for invulnerability in chat or console, or the menus, great. Give the player in question that magnificent keyboard icon (BTW, Great idea raven!) and an invulnerability bubble, just the same as when a player spawns, so it's obvious they are protected. Though this presents another issue. Someone standing there, waiting for you to re-enter the game so they can strike you down as soon as your bubble is down, or otherwise conspiring to kill. For this reason, give the player 0.25 seconds of continued invulnerability AFTER they re-enter the game, during which time they cannot take damage, NOR can they CAUSE damage to another. This will give time for them to move out of harms way. Heck, this could go up to 0.5 seconds even.

This would address the concern about someone coming out of the menus, still invulnerable, and using that invulnerability to take down a passer by/opponent.

I do see the point of the post above saying we shouldn't made any of these modifications. You're right, we ask a lot, but we're all just trying to help make the game the best we think it can be. Opinions are free. if Raven listens/acts on them, that's their own business. No big deal. We all just like having our say. Isn't that what the forums are for?

TBJ


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Old 06-09-2002, 04:28 PM   #26
Soldier2200
 
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Yeah, most of these changes can only help. If Raven implements only a few, I'll be happy

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