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Old 07-08-2002, 07:28 AM   #41
QuietSith
 
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The good thing about this is the following:

If you play on my server, and use allow download, it'll grab the pk3.

You can join any other server around - it will not put you in a 1.04 mode all the time - only if the other server is using it.

Now if you want to host a server, and not use that, simply remove it from base - u104mod.pk3

So basically you can join any normal server or other modded server and the existence of the "u104mod.pk3" file in your base directory will not have any effect on your going on those other servers.

I hope that helps.
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Old 07-08-2002, 09:35 AM   #42
jd91651
 
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?huh?

. . . of course whining about people who whine is more noble than just normal whining . . . 'cause we're so much better than they are . . .
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Old 07-08-2002, 10:55 AM   #43
Kurgan
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Wink

Maybe I've been going about this argument all wrong.... see, I see the lightsaber as "just another weapon" but I realize that on a DUEL SERVER, since 9 out of 10 duel servers are "sabers only" its your ONLY WEAPON. IIR, most Duel Servers are low or NF as well...

So that really limits your options. And then people get upset about certain moves because it makes a stance unbalanced or something. I see the stances as just sets of moves. I don't use one exclusively. I switch to the one I want in order to do the move I want, that's best for the situation.

But I guess when you limit yourself to NF DUELING (or Saber challenges on a FFA low force server), then maybe you get protective and just a bit picky about what tactics you want to allow.

Everybody's got their preferences, I just feel like certain people want to shoe-horn everybody into their group, by limiting what you can do or you get called a lamer or a cheater and when you win, using tactics you feel are legit, they say you're using exploits and all that stuff.

I feel like it's easy for me to just practice and learn new tactics and work to adapt. Other folks feel that it's better to wait for a patch or to form groups and plead their case on the forums for others to follow their rules.

Frankly the whole "bowing" thing I thought was silly, not because I had something against role playing, but that you got CALLED NAMES if you didn't do it! Some people acted like it was all you could do. By the same token, if you used the DFA, you were a bad person and same with the backstab or whatever. In JK (and MotS), I guess we had an advantage, because there WERE NO GAMEPLAY CHANGING PATCHES so everybody just had to learn how to play the game and put up with its nuances, or just make a mod (and you had people that did that too).

Despite the "smaller" community (it felt smaller) of JK/MotS, you still had people whining constantly about how Grip was cheap and Protection was cheap and etc etc. People got accused of cheating and trash talked each other. It's easy to forget and think it was a utopia, but it wasn't. Still, most of us were able to simply brush it off and have fun anyway.

As myself and others have said before, for many of us:
COMPETITION = FUN

It's not that we're trying to "win at all costs" and not have any fun, but trying to win IS THE FUN. It's not like the RPG players are the only ones having a good time. If it's not fun, don't play... otherwise it's a waste of time. Perhaps there are people who play the game and don't enjoy it, I think they should stop.
; )

For the record, I enjoy playing CTF and team games probably most of all, I also enjoy FFA deathmatch and Dueling. Though I love saber duels, I recognize that they aren't the only style of gameplay and that it takes different skills to be good at that verses fighting with all the weapons and powers verses a bunch of people. I haven't played much CTY, Holocron, or Jedi Master, and haven't ever tried Jedi vs. Merc (I have doubts about the balance, let's say... and the fact that so many people will just be Jedi).

I didn't want to turn this into a flame war, if I've offended anyone, I apologize (again). I just want to make the case that my way of playing is just as legit as the next guy's, even if I don't subscribe to extra rules. If Raven makes a new official patch, that's their perrogative, and I'll welcome their decision. It's what I did with the 1.03 patch.. I learned to master the new stuff, and moved on. I guess what makes me the maddest is the slight elitest vibe I get when people talk about how they have more honor and are better because they saber duel and don't use the backstab or DFA or whatever the flavor of the month honorable rule is. Nobody put up with that back in the JK1 days...
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:26 PM   #44
Homosexual Ewok
 
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The way I look at it is, if you can find a hole in my defensive strategy and exploit it, no matter if you do so with swift precision or sloppy random hits, it is up to me to patch that flaw in my play style.

I simply hold my opponents up to this standard as well.
But by no means do I attempt to humiliate them. If a player is willing to learn, I have never refused help.
For those of you that are frustrated with the pull/backstabs, before you flame someone for using it, try asking them to show you a few pointers on how to prevent it. You would be surprised on how much you can learn by simply (politely) asking someone for help.
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Old 07-09-2002, 06:46 AM   #45
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Kurgan,

I see your point re: competition being your source of fun, and more power to you. I also think that you're a bit different from a lot of the "competitive" players out there, in that you view a move as just one tool to be used. I doubt that you exclusively use ANY move, weapon, or stance.

However, leaving the backstab as the death-dealing blow it is now (given that it can take a person who just spawned from 100/25 to instant death) without adding some sort of major detracting factor (IE: the ability to block the move, being frozen in place for a few seconds, long recovery time, etc.) AND allowing people to spin around as they do in pure 1.03 IS a problem. It unbalances the game.

For me, at least, that's the crucial flaw of the move. I wouldn't mind if it was incredibly powerful. I wouldn't even mind if it was an instakill move, as long as it had a corresponding achilles heel to it. The DFA in its current iteration is basically perfect. I think they could make it a little easier to execute or maybe a bit faster, but overall, the benefits and drawbacks are well balanced. Yes, you can kill someone basically instantly. But, you'd better be DAMN sure you hit the guy.

The backstab in pure 1.03 has no similar drawbacks. It's essentially an instakill move, BUT, you can spin while doing it and kill multiple enemies at once, AND it's unblockable (remember -- in PURE 1.03. No cvars messed with). Granted, turning out ghoul2 and messing with sabertrace helps increase blocking, but that's only really for when you're standing. If you get pulled to the ground, and the guy instantly backstabs, you're still toast.

The way I see it, if you want to leave the move so that it can rotate, is unblockable, and can be done off a pull combo, you should nerf the damage. Yeah, I said it. Nerf. Nerf nerf nerf.

If you want to leave the damage as it is, remove the spinning ability, allow it to be PARRIED (not blocked -- difference = you have to be swinging to parry it), and make all stances use the blue backstab. This would prevent the pull/stab combo (the blue stab goes right over your head), would leave the move as quite deadly, but would not make it unbeatable.

As for the 1.03 patch, I think they got a lot of stuff right. Most of the changes that they made I agree with. DFA, the increased blocking, the ammo consumption changes, and the chaining changes (reducing the chainability of yellow stance), I think all of these things definitely added to the game. By NOT fixing the backstab issue, however, Raven left a gaping hole in what would otherwise be a solid, tight game. Actually, I'd have reduced the blocking somewhat, to be honest. Ultimately, I just wanted MP to be like SP, which I thought was perfect in terms of saber fighting. The rest of the changes, I couldn't care less about. The guns vs. sabers issue, well, I could've gone for a gun user being slowed down slightly when running backwards, but that's really a minor concern. I'd have loved it if they really made a truly balanced mercs v. jedi mod (the current version, a beta, is really very much a beta), but again, a minor concern.

Overall, I was happy with the 1.03 patch. It wasn't until the rise of the assfighters that I got sick of it. But, when the anti-assfighting servers showed up, the game became fun again. Add in the ghoul2/sabertrace stuff, and it's basically just like SP -- what I always wanted.

Would another patch likely fix more stuff? Sure. There's always stuff that could be tweaked or enhanced. But overall, with the exception of the backstab, I'm happy with 1.03. I don't even really mind the increased blocking all that much. I wouldn't mind if it was toned down, but overall, I'm neutral on it, long as some blocking does exist in a more effective form than 1.02.
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Old 07-09-2002, 08:17 AM   #46
Kurgan
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Good comments. A couple of things though:

Quote:
I see your point re: competition being your source of fun, and more power to you. I also think that you're a bit different from a lot of the "competitive" players out there, in that you view a move as just one tool to be used. I doubt that you exclusively use ANY move, weapon, or stance.
This is true, I mix it up, mainly because it makes it harder for my enemies to lock onto a patern they can exploit. However, let me just say that there have been situations where I join a game and I am WAY BEHIND AT THE START. I try my best to get up with the leader, even if I can't win. It's fun when they have like 50 kills and you TIE THEM when the level ends! lol

Anyhow, the way I play, it often happens that I'll fall into a pattern just the same (that's how the human mind works, we like patterns, they're easier and more comfortable). I'll run a pattern through the level picking up the same items as they respawn. I'll target and kill the same guys who like to camp in certain areas. I'll use the same stuff, to, you guessed it EXPLOIT MY ENEMIES'S WEAKNESSES!

If I KNOW a guy lacks absorb, I'll pound him with grip and lightning, for example. If I know he lacks seeing, I'll use Mind Trick. If he likes to use the saber, I'll use the explosives and the DEMP2. I do whatever it takes and if they can't adapt fast enough, THEY DIE.

I admit, it may get boring if the person falls for the same weapon/move over and over, but if I'm trying to make up that point deficiet, I will.

See, when I compete, I am NOT going for movie-like duels or dramatic kills. Sure, to wow newbies or if I'm recording a demo, I might want to try for that sort of thing, making each kill unique, but in general it doesn't matter, it's just whatever works.

For example lets say you're trying to win, do you duel somebody for 5 minutes? Or do you run around shooting people? Chances are in that super long movie-quality duel, you could have gotten a half a dozen frags or more. Oops! That's why if you do a lightsaber challenge, it's only out of boredom (fighting, say the only other good player on the server or your friend) or if you aren't going to win anyway and you just want a quick fight. Otherwise a duel server is a much better test of your lightsabering skills. In a regular FFA or CTF, the saber is used as just another weapon and takes second fiddle to other more powerful weapons.

I may use the lightsaber while on defense in CTF, but that's again in certain situations. You don't chase a flag runner with your blade for example. NF CTF Sabers only? I don't think so!

Quote:
However, leaving the backstab as the death-dealing blow it is now (given that it can take a person who just spawned from 100/25 to instant death) without adding some sort of major detracting factor (IE: the ability to block the move, being frozen in place for a few seconds, long recovery time, etc.) AND allowing people to spin around as they do in pure 1.03 IS a problem. It unbalances the game.
ONLY, if you are playing NF, sabers only Duel, or possibly in lightsaber challenges. In FFA FF CTF or Deathmatch or anything else where you use everything, it's PERFECTLY FINE.

In CTF, you NEED to be able to do fast kills. You can't wait around fighting people, because in that time, attackers pass you buy and take your flag! Or somebody snipes you from a distance while you're dueling. See, you can't have all this movie-quality, long-drawn out stuff in CTF. So you either have to have different sets of saber styles for dueling and everything else, or you leave it how it is now (or how it was in 1.02).

In FFA Deathmatch as well, you have OTHER WEAPONS so the backstab is balanced. Also, as long as its not NF, you have force powers to counter it with.

I think the problem is that these lightsaber challenge, NF Sabers Only people are limiting themselves and so this one move is making it harder for them to have their movie-quality RPG duels, and that's creating problems! People DO play all those other game modes. I am arguing that nerfing and removing all of the one hit kill moves available to saber users only benefits a small percentage of the game, while crippling the rest.

Eventually, it will become so bad that in non Duel/Lightsaber challenge gameplay, the saber will simply be useless and one that nobody ever users (KIND OF, like it was in JK1. Note: I'm not saying the saber was useless in JK1, but for most players, it was only a last resort weapon... only master players were able to use it effectively instead of the conc, mines, rail det and other powerful guns).

So why cripple the rest of the game just for the saber duelists? I know many people want to just play duels, but the rest of us get mad when we see the saber becoming less and less useful in open combat, and more and more just a dueling weapon.

Quote:
For me, at least, that's the crucial flaw of the move. I wouldn't mind if it was incredibly powerful. I wouldn't even mind if it was an instakill move, as long as it had a corresponding achilles heel to it. The DFA in its current iteration is basically perfect. I think they could make it a little easier to execute or maybe a bit faster, but overall, the benefits and drawbacks are well balanced. Yes, you can kill someone basically instantly. But, you'd better be DAMN sure you hit the guy.
So how about make a mod that simply nerfs the backstab or removes it in duel mode, in fact, removes ALL one hit kill moves in duel mode, but preserves the original styles of 1.03/1.02 in CTF, FFA and everything else?

Quote:
The way I see it, if you want to leave the move so that it can rotate, is unblockable, and can be done off a pull combo, you should nerf the damage. Yeah, I said it. Nerf. Nerf nerf nerf.
Actually, I would love to see the full damage, "king cheapo" versions of all the saber moves returned for DM and CTF. That would be better than what we have now. As it is, the saber is just made so that saber duels take forever, but it hurts its effectiveness against other weapons... people say the blocking is silly, but it's only silly against OTHER SABERS as I've seen. I can still shoot down saber wielders quite easily in all out combat with 1.03. That should not change.

Quote:
If you want to leave the damage as it is, remove the spinning ability, allow it to be PARRIED (not blocked -- difference = you have to be swinging to parry it), and make all stances use the blue backstab. This would prevent the pull/stab combo (the blue stab goes right over your head), would leave the move as quite deadly, but would not make it unbeatable.
Again, people need to realize that the saber's use as a dueling weapon is NOT its only function, and in fact the minority game mode. Duel and lightsaber challenge are the EXCEPTIONS, the "rule" is CTF/CTY, DM and Holocron DM and Jedi Master. Sabers verses guns/explosives and sabers, not just sabers verses sabers with no force!

Quote:
As for the 1.03 patch, I think they got a lot of stuff right.
They did! But the stuff they changed with the sabers was really only of benefit to duelists. And again, they didn't "go far enough" because people are still complaining. They won't be satisfied until all moves are nerfed and nothing kills in one hit. The RPG players want duels to last a long time like the movies, but again, if you carry this over to open combat, it makes it silly and the saber a weapon you don't want to use if you want a shot at winning for yourself or your team.

Running backwards as fast as forwards is also something that should NOT be changed. Again, it might be "fun" in duels, but in the rest of the game modes, you NEED this! Think about this in the context of CTF for example. Again, most players like me use everything, not just the saber exclusively, so we combine tactics. It's not always just saber verses saber with NF.

Quote:
Overall, I was happy with the 1.03 patch.
I'm fine with it. It has some stuff I love and some stuff I don't, but I have adapted to play with it. But some of the suggestions people are making are turning this into a duel-centered game. I can't just duel all the time, I want to enjoy the vast and varied FUN game that Raven made, and play all of the game modes, not just one.

Quote:
It wasn't until the rise of the assfighters that I got sick of it. But, when the anti-assfighting servers showed up, the game became fun again. Add in the ghoul2/sabertrace stuff, and it's basically just like SP -- what I always wanted.
So I'm assuming you're one of those guys who focuses on dueling as the sole aspect of the game that deserves your attention? We should remember that JK2 is an FPS with a melee combat system tacked on. It's not a melee only combat game, like Rune or Bushido Blade or Blade of Darkness or Die By The Sword or something.

Quote:
Would another patch likely fix more stuff? Sure. There's always stuff that could be tweaked or enhanced. But overall, with the exception of the backstab, I'm happy with 1.03. I don't even really mind the increased blocking all that much. I wouldn't mind if it was toned down, but overall, I'm neutral on it, long as some blocking does exist in a more effective form than 1.02.
I wouldn't mind seeing an OPTIONAL "dueling saber style" chooser in the admin settings, but as far as I'm concerned, the saber usage with regard to all out combat in CTF or DM was perfectly fine in 1.02. That's my honest opinion. I'm not saying the new stuff is wrong, but people act like its BROKEN and NEEDS TO BE FIXED. If they would see the POV of a person who isn't obsessed with dueling NF only, they might see my POV, I think.
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