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Old 10-18-2002, 01:40 AM   #1
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jk3? bring on the Yuuzhan Vong

if jk3 was based on the NJO with the Yuuzhan Vong that would just absolutely kick ass. it should have multiple playable characters whose abilities differ, like jacen, who could be somewhat sudued in the force due to his ideals but have him be an awesome saber fighter, and have anakin be much more force heavy than saber, stuff like that!
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Old 10-18-2002, 03:28 AM   #2
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I wouldn't buy it if it was.





... yeah I would. I just would be mad at myself.
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Old 10-18-2002, 04:14 AM   #3
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dear god why? NJO is a kick-ass storyline!
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Old 10-18-2002, 04:26 PM   #4
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I hate NJO so much that it.... it, I can't even put into words the hatred I have for it. It's storyline is worse than most comics.
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Old 10-18-2002, 04:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boba Rhett
I hate NJO so much that it.... it, I can't even put into words the hatred I have for it. It's storyline is worse than most comics.

*high fives Rhett*

Couldn't have said it better myself!




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Old 10-18-2002, 09:16 PM   #6
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amen, NJO is soooooooo bad it makes me cry, i hope they don't based JK3 on it. i would still buy though
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Old 10-18-2002, 09:30 PM   #7
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I concur with the sentiment that NJO sucks.
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Old 10-18-2002, 10:30 PM   #8
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the jk series is about the story of kyle katarn!!
if you wanted a njo game then they would need a new name for the games...
anyways it would be VERY hard to combine NJO into one game since it covers many different genres, like FPS, RTS, flying, etc. It would be a stupid idea too since the game would just be a re-telling of the NJO story. Do we have any book on Kyle? No (i dont think so).
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Old 10-18-2002, 10:33 PM   #9
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boba Rhett
[B]I wouldn't buy it if it was.

i agree with you partially since all the NJO books are written by different authors that when you read em together it just does not flow well from book to book. However the idea behind and concepts behind the story are sorta cool, *SPOILERS* like the bubble being broken and Luke, Han, Leia and Co. when Chewie, Anakin, and a bunch of others die.
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Old 10-19-2002, 06:25 AM   #10
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well, that sucks that you guys don't like the storyline. myself, i couldn't put them down. and i am an extremely picky movie, comic and book kinda guy. oh well, to each his own


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Old 10-19-2002, 08:44 AM   #11
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i read all the njo and absolutely hated a lot of them theyre characterisation was awful and there were plot decisions that made me cringe

but the last three that i read(the 2 where they reform the rebel alliance after coruscant falls where wedge is in charge of the base and traitor) were pretty damn good with a lot less drivel then the previous ones and some intersting stuff with jacen

the problem with making them into a game is that the yujhang vong (sp?)would be wierd enemies to fight (with there biological bunch-o-crap weapons) and they're so ugly i would get sick of looking at them


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Old 10-19-2002, 02:29 PM   #12
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Actually there are at least three books on Kyle Katarn (he's mentioned in some guides as being connected with fighting the YV, but I haven't read any of the NJO or any other novel or comic where he's mentioned fighting them), but they're really short (with big illustrations), and of course based on the games (with some differences):

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Old 10-19-2002, 04:53 PM   #13
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the characters from NJO look bad, and anyway as wassup said the jk series is about kyle katarn and the remnants not about NJO, i wouldn't buy it what is the point?


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Old 10-20-2002, 02:50 AM   #14
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I ditto with the NJO sentiment. I'd much rather have ALL the EU stuff take place in the past rather than teh future of SW. I don't think Lucas meant for Luke and the gang to go thru HELL after RotJ.


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Old 10-20-2002, 01:12 PM   #15
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I guess I'll add my voice to the chorus of boos at a NJO-related JK3 game. There are a few reasons why I think a game like that probably wouldn't work (or sell as well for that matter):

1. The majority of casual Star Wars fans don't know anything about the NJO storyline. They like Star Wars because of what's in the movies. If they pick up a game that says Star Wars on the box, they want to be fighting stormtroopers, battle droids, and see familiar locations from the movies. So if they buy a game that's all NJO, they are likely going to say WTF, where the hell are all the stormtroopers? Who the hell is Anakin Solo? Since when did Han have kids with Darth Vader?

2. Since the hardcore SW fans are a smaller percentage, and an even smaller percentage of them actually like the NJO (as you can see in this thread), Lucasarts would probably be limiting there potential sales.

3. Since the Jedi Knight series is obviously about Jedi, most people are probably playing the game because they want to pretend they are Jedi for a little while. And the majority of people see their powers in the movies, and want those abilities recreated to a large extent. Now, I've never read the NJO series, but from the bits and pieces I've heard about, the Yuuzhan Vong are unaffected by the force right? So if you make JK3 based on them, the majority of poor souls will be buying the game thinking that they will be force-pushing, mind-tricking, and saber-slicing all over the place. They will fire up the game or read the manual and find out that none of your force powers have any affect on the enemies in the game. What's the point of being a Jedi of you can do anything that Jedis do? People are going to correctly think that this is the dumbest game they've ever seen. Who's going to want to play a game like that?

Does that mean that there should be nothing out there about the NJO? Of course not. But IMHO a mod is probably more the way to go. I think there is one going on right now. Or at least a new game series based on it. The JK storyline should remain it's own entity. Now, I'm a hardcore SW fan, and I play JO because it is Star Wars, not because it is a FPS. And I like the fact that there are many familiar things from the movies. I like the storyline of the JK series, because I think that it is a closer representation of what might happen after ROTJ (getting the New Republic running, and all that). For me, aliens from another galaxy is just too cliche and out of left field. That's just me though.
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Old 10-20-2002, 01:34 PM   #16
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whats NJO?








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Old 10-20-2002, 01:35 PM   #17
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Old 10-20-2002, 01:45 PM   #18
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yeah.....no NJO
but the idea of multiple characters would be nice

i mean, how often do jedi go alone??

i wanna fight along side someone who doesnt scream like a girl (luke) when he dies.


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Old 10-20-2002, 06:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
I guess I'll add my voice to the chorus of boos at a NJO-related JK3 game. There are a few reasons why I think a game like that probably wouldn't work (or sell as well for that matter):
Some very good points, Prime. You forgot to mention the amount of work required to truely impliment the weird weapons of the Vong. The staff weapon alone would probably require a new engine or at least a crap load of new animations and physics programming.


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Old 10-20-2002, 06:27 PM   #20
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just so u know prime, they r coming out with a NJO mod. for info check the general editing forum!


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Old 10-21-2002, 12:42 PM   #21
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just so u know prime, they r coming out with a NJO mod. for info check the general editing forum!
I think I remember seeing that yadu. IIRC I went to their website and it looked like a pretty cool project. The mod idea is great. Those who like the NJO will no doubt be happy to have it, and those that don't can stick with vanilla JO.

Quote:
You forgot to mention the amount of work required to truely impliment the weird weapons of the Vong. The staff weapon alone would probably require a new engine or at least a crap load of new animations and physics programming.
Your right. I don't know too much about the Vong, and I am not all that familiar with the staff, but doesn't change into different things or something? Being a professional software guy, I can certainly appreciate the amount of work it would take to implement something like that.

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the idea of multiple characters would be nice
I agree. I am also a fan of making your own character and using him in the game. Being able to select your clothes, etc. would be pretty cool I think.
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Old 10-22-2002, 02:28 PM   #22
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I like NJO...I think they should make a NJO game but it should not be JK3.

I want JK3 also though...I really want to drive vehicles like in halo.


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Old 10-22-2002, 04:32 PM   #23
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JK3? Yes.
NJO? No.

I agree with the POV's above, that the Jedi Knight series is largely about Kyle Katarn, and any further instalments should have that character somewhere, even as a cameo role, and based around the same time as the other stories in this series.
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Old 10-22-2002, 04:56 PM   #24
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I don't like the NJO either ... but it is mainly because of the YV. I read a book or two in paperback in the middle of the series, and had no interest in going in either direction.

I would likely buy a game around it, but that doesn't mean I'd want to have a game based around it ...

To me, the YV are the anti-Borg. That's about it. Rather than expand on the force, they make the whole jedi history, including Yoda, seem pedantic and parochial. Pah!

Even though I know much of the SW EU, I still get a particular thrill shashing Stormies and pushing Rodians off ledges ...

Watching 'Star Wars' the other day (OK, Ep IV if I must ... I was 11 when it came out, and it will always be plain Star Wars to me) it is amazing how much 'force push fodder' the Empire built ...

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Old 10-22-2002, 05:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Altus_Thrawn

I want JK3 also though...I really want to drive vehicles like in halo.
Man, that would be tricky with SW vehicles. They move REALLY fast. The maps would have to be huge.

My thoughts is to have JK3 based on Kyle's father or someone else in the Katarn family. It seems implied that the Force is strong in the Katarn family.


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Old 10-22-2002, 05:14 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace


Man, that would be tricky with SW vehicles. They move REALLY fast. The maps would have to be huge.

My thoughts is to have JK3 based on Kyle's father or someone else in the Katarn family. It seems implied that the Force is strong in the Katarn family.
Unfortunately, in JKII I had to go beyond 'suspension of disbelief' to 'suspension of factual memory' as Morgan was not a Jedi, but he did have a friend Rahn who was a Jedi and was slaughtered by Jerec.

Morgan had no business being in the Valley (as he died on Sullust with his head on a stick), and was not a Jedi. It was Rahn who realized Kyle was strong with Force potential and pushed Morgan to give him the saber ...

... however, maybe some past connection in the family that Rahn knows about but Morgan doesn't ... maybe Kyle needs to solve a future crisis by making a connection to the past. Then they could have his great-great ... great grandfather battling sith or whatever somewhere between KOTOR and SW EpIV. He could evolve early in the game, then we go back to Kyle with full powers.

... and fly some ships

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Old 10-22-2002, 05:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Man, that would be tricky with SW vehicles. They move REALLY fast. The maps would have to be huge.
Not necessarily. I don't know if you've played Soldier of Fortune, but there was a 'Train' level in SP that used a rolling terrain effect, which was quite effective.

They did a similar thing with UT's Train Assault map.

And Raven managed to put a vehicle chase and Helicopter shooting run in SOF2, which worked quite well. It's usually just a matter of giving the illusion that the map is large.

So I don't think it would be a problem having fast vehicles in a map...but you probably wouldn't have the freedom to go beyond the confines of the moving terrain generator (or something - I'm no game techy ).

Anyway, you can build potentially huge levels with the latest Unreal tech.

On the other hand, you can always opt for slower vehicles (like the AT-ST levels in JO), or you can break up a level into sections, which is what they appear to have done with NOLF2 (which uses the Lithtech Jupiter engine) - you get to ride a snowmobile around an icy level, and that's no slouch - but again, you are limited to where you can go (the old steep-sided gully trick).

It's largely down to the game engine you use. I know that you can drive jeeps and other vehicles around in Operation Flashpoint, because the 'levels' are simply huge maps of rolling terrain. There's also the potential trick of miniaturising your models on a large level where you are just going to use vehicles, so that the level appears bigger than it is.

Which is why I think they should think seriously about changing which game engine is used for a potential 3rd instalment.
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Old 10-22-2002, 05:28 PM   #28
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Re: Vehicles

And let's face it ... in a game like SoF2 (I just happen to be playing now on another computer while I'm getting ready to go home) while you are getting shot at so much by so many enemies, you don't have time to study the scenery ...

But it looks pretty good to me ...


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Old 10-22-2002, 05:32 PM   #29
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Unfortunately, in JKII I had to go beyond 'suspension of disbelief' to 'suspension of factual memory' as Morgan was not a Jedi, but he did have a friend Rahn who was a Jedi and was slaughtered by Jerec.
Well, technically, the whole father background was only mentioned in the books and/or manual. If you go by just what's in the games, you'd think that Morgan was a Jedi.

As for vehicles, StormHammer, you mentioned SP instants of vehicles. Those examples couldn't work in multiplayer. A Op Flashpoint engine would work but...... Sides, SW vehicles couldn't really fit into a FPS without MAJOR, MAJOR changes to the gameplay. Everyone in MP would just drive around trying to run each other over.


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Old 10-22-2002, 08:40 PM   #30
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jk3 should definitely be based on tavion's advances into a sith lordress and causing problems for the new republic. You, of course, will be Kyle and now he will be a jedi master. Kyle will definitely have a kid with jan...and he should be teaching him the ways of the force. And then Tavion kidnaps his kid and attempts to turn him to the darkside...Kyle tries to save him and finally confronts his son, only to find his son is a sith. Kyle is so hurt and just falls to his knees as his son and tavion escape....and it would continue from there...


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Old 10-22-2002, 08:46 PM   #31
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that is a great story Jedi haseco!


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Old 10-23-2002, 01:51 AM   #32
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I completely agree with razorace... I think that after the last remnants of the Empire were wiped away, there would be relative peace in the universe... there would be criminal syndicates and terrorist organizations, of course, but most of the time, those things wouldn't affect your average New Republic citizen. And maybe the Sith would attempt to rise again, but they would be working in the shadows, as low as they ever were after Bane's army was defeated.

But the Yuuzhan Vong? Aliens from another galaxy? Just come on! And just because they're from another galaxy, they aren't effected by the Force which binds everything together... right... and what's this I've been hearing about the Dark Side being good? Sure, it might just be the Force reacting to man's inner demons, but it's very clear in the movies that the Dark Side is a bad place to be!

And just think about this in the context of Episode II... the Yuuzhan Vong are an alien race bent on invading this galaxy... okay... but in SW2, ten thousand systems are threatening to secede from the Republic... TEN THOUSAND SYSTEMS... even if the Jedi aren't a factor, how the heck could an invader from a completely separate galaxy strike into the heart of the Star Wars galaxy without being overwhelmed by the manpower and weaponary that could be amassed by TEN THOUSAND frikking SYSTEMS?!

Anyway... I also like Jedi haseco's idea, except for Tavion... I think that after the scare Kyle gave Tavion on Cloud City, she's gone straight (as in come over to the Light Side). I'd like to see Kyle get personally involved in a non-hateful-wanting-murderous-revenge kind of way, and bringing his kid into it might be a good way of doing that. I'd want to see him with a lightsaber and all of his Force powers at the beginning... if you want a first-person shooter level with blasters but no Forcepowers/lightsaber, just have him have to go through Myrkr to gather some information (Myrkr being infested with Ysalamiri).



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Old 10-23-2002, 02:46 AM   #33
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good points, Jedi_Monk.

Tavion didn't have the making of a baddie after that @$$ kicking she got from Kyle. I imagine she becauses a light sider after a long, hard, personal journey.


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Old 10-23-2002, 07:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk
I completely agree with razorace... I think that after the last remnants of the Empire were wiped away, there would be relative peace in the universe... there would be criminal syndicates and terrorist organizations, of course, but most of the time, those things wouldn't affect your average New Republic citizen. And maybe the Sith would attempt to rise again, but they would be working in the shadows, as low as they ever were after Bane's army was defeated.
Well, JK2 is set just before the Vong invasion. So even if there were a JK3, it would either have to be set in the past or after the Yuuzhan Vong war in a changed galaxy. Maybe not a full on war with the Vong but some Vong enemies would be a challenge.

Quote:
But the Yuuzhan Vong? Aliens from another galaxy? Just come on! And just because they're from another galaxy, they aren't effected by the Force which binds everything together... right... and what's this I've been hearing about the Dark Side being good? Sure, it might just be the Force reacting to man's inner demons, but it's very clear in the movies that the Dark Side is a bad place to be!
Traitor & Destiny's Way Spoilers
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Technically they CAN be felt through the Force. Using a radio comparison, you can pick up different things on different wavelengths. The Vong are just on a different wavelength.

The Dark Side thing is still something I'm getting used to. Unreasoning anger now leads to the Dark Side, but if the anger is reasonable and a natural emotion (i.e. Luke being angry at Vergere for inflicting pain on Jacen) it's positive. [/spoilers]
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Quote:
And just think about this in the context of Episode II... the Yuuzhan Vong are an alien race bent on invading this galaxy... okay... but in SW2, ten thousand systems are threatening to secede from the Republic... TEN THOUSAND SYSTEMS... even if the Jedi aren't a factor, how the heck could an invader from a completely separate galaxy strike into the heart of the Star Wars galaxy without being overwhelmed by the manpower and weaponary that could be amassed by TEN THOUSAND frikking SYSTEMS?!
Simple. Remember the original trilogy? The whole Rebel Alliance (now the New Republic) and Imperial War? The Empire had all the weapons. They would have anihilated the Vong. Completely. The NR was still getting on it's feet, it's just been over 20 years since they defeated the Empire, and they've been in power even less. There were a lot of rebellions, Imperial and otherwise, which had their attention.


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Old 10-24-2002, 03:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Technically they CAN be felt through the Force. Using a radio comparison, you can pick up different things on different wavelengths. The Vong are just on a different wavelength.
The Force is the god of the Star Wars universe. It is not waves and particles. The Force is a mystical energy field created by all living things. The Force is everywhere, the Force connects everything, even the past to the future to the present. The Force has a Will, the Force has a plan for the universe and the Force uses vergances to accomplish its goals--even to the point of impregnating a virgin with its Chosen One! The Force would not allow creatures like the Yuzzhan Vong to come about.

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The Dark Side thing is still something I'm getting used to. Unreasoning anger now leads to the Dark Side, but if the anger is reasonable and a natural emotion (i.e. Luke being angry at Vergere for inflicting pain on Jacen) it's positive.
Unreasoning anger now leads to the Dark Side... I love that now... suggesting that the books can change the impact and message of the movies. Jedi in the movies suppress their emotions and when they get angry for any reason, they're called down on it. Even fear is discouraged! Fear is the path to the Dark Side! Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, period.

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Simple. Remember the original trilogy? The whole Rebel Alliance (now the New Republic) and Imperial War? The Empire had all the weapons. They would have anihilated the Vong. Completely. The NR was still getting on it's feet, it's just been over 20 years since they defeated the Empire, and they've been in power even less. There were a lot of rebellions, Imperial and otherwise, which had their attention.
All in all, the EU is much smaller in scope than the "real" Star Wars universe that we see in the movies. You can't judge the strength of the collective galaxy based on anything you see in the EU. There are maybe thirty systems shown on the map inside of the cover of the NJO books. Nowhere near a hundred thousand, is it? Like I said, the manpower of all of those worlds, combined under a reinstated Republic, would equal an insurmountable opponent to any outside force.

The only reason why the Empire was so successful in taking over the SW galaxy was because the infrastructure was already there, the Empire just assimilated it. The Empire had all of the reach, all of the resources that had been behind the Republic; it also had all of the trust of the Republic--in the beginning. From what we see in the Prequels, the Republic changed very gradually into the Empire. A few rights were taken away here and there, and the people accepted it because they were afraid of the Separatists. One group was targetted here and there, the Separatists, the Jedi... everything happened in such a way as that when the people woke up to the fact that they were living in a dictatorship, it was already too late. The Empire did not come about by strength of arms, but by already having everything laid out before it.

The Empire is like what would happen if the US government became fascist. The Yuzzhan Vong, at best, would be the Nazis.




Last edited by Jedi_Monk; 10-24-2002 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 10-24-2002, 06:19 PM   #36
razorace
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I like your point on the Force and fear/angry. I agree, I've been thinking that too.

I think it's one of the subtle themes of SW. The path of the SW shows that the traditional ideas of the Force were wrong or at least misguided. Luke/Vader's love (attachment) for each other is what wins the day, not the cold seperation that Yoda preached.

The Sides of the Force are based on motives instead of emotions. While using angry does draw from the "Dark Side", you wouldn't turn unless your motives for its use change.


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Old 10-25-2002, 01:11 PM   #37
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Luke/Vader's love (attachment) for each other is what wins the day, not the cold seperation that Yoda preached.
I'll just use some quotes from Episode II to illustrate my point:
"Senator Amidala, your tragedy on the landing platform--terrible! Seeing you alive brings warm feelings to my heart!" ~Yoda

"Attachment is forbidden, possession is forbidden, compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life. You might say we are encouraged to love." ~Anakin



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