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Old 12-01-2002, 01:59 AM   #1
Tarus
 
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Really Disappointed with this game...

Ive been playing Jedi Outcast since it came out (not non-stop). Ive been throught he patches. Overall I think the game is really lacking, ill explain why. And I would like other opinions whether you agree or disagree.

First off the combat, overall, is lacking. In any server with force powers enabled the combat is simply boring. You ether have non-stop lightning bolts, or you have the stupid "force throw force pull combo". While some people may view it fun to play and counter these force powers, I think it really makes this game mroe like super heros then jedi.

Force, not jedi like? In the movies, when vader threw his saber it was a dirty trick. He did it once in 3 movies unless im forgetting something. The reason the jedi did not often force push or anything of the like is because any aware jedi could easily counter. The few times they did it was right after a hit or something.

The stances, in the game, are just sickening. I see people swinging light sabers like baseball bats. Worse yet is they start a swing and they are halfway across the map before the swing is completed.

So when im playing the game I see super heros zapping lasers from their eyes non-stop with glowing sticks in their hand that they never use..unless of course they are throwing it. Or I see people with big glowing baseball bats. I do not feel like im playing as a jedi when I play this game.
-----------------------------------------
What I would like to see in a future game.

I think stances were a good idea but poorly done. Each stance should do nothing more then open up various fighting styles. The styles shouldn't do more or less damage, merely different moves.

Saber combat should be the main part of the game. Saber combat should have at least 30 different moves throughout the stances...some offense based, others defense based. So the whole of a combat is quick thinking attacks and parries.

Guns are not a problem but some of them are carried away. Rocket launchers, those pea-shooter things, etc. Those just make the game stupid. If I wanted to blow people up with rockest I would play quake...seems very unstarwars like.

Forces powers should exist but very limited. No gripping...that power wouldn't even work on another jedi unless he was weak. Mind tricks should be out....jedi are not weak minded. Healing is not a bad power but it should be a type of heal like level 1 heal in the single play (saber off and kneeling, not instant). Lightning is a joke...again, easily countered by any skilled jedi. Absorb and protection...ditch them. Rage, out. That drain power, gone. The powers, in multiplayer saber combat, should be nothing more then force jump, the reduced power heal if your lucky enough to get away from your foe for enough time, and force seeing (which should show a rough map overview to show wherep oeple are like the original jedi game). Push and pull are useful but they shouldnt' be used to shove people around, just items, flip switches, etc.

Jedi battles should have few force powers used (other then jump), and they should be fast paced. Not baseball bat swinging heavy swings and lightingbolts/force throws up the wazoo.

Thoughts, comments? Think there is any chance of them making a game like this or you think the jedi games are doomed to be x-men with sabers?
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Old 12-01-2002, 02:46 AM   #2
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You sound like myself and other people I've read on the forums. Basically, you're sick of the exploits and the CONSTANT spam attacks. The overall lack of balance in the game -especially since the version 1.04 patch was released. The last time I played vanilla JO online, the people weren't even using their sabers! They were just running up and kicking me to death -and I had MY saber out! Okay, so they were doing more damage to me with a kick than I could do with my saber. What is wrong with this picture??? Anybody see any of the movies!?!?!?

It's sad but true, vanilla JO is a game for gunners, and perhaps Soccer players. And I agree, there is nothing wrong with guns and gunners. But C'mon! Were the Jedi were REALLY that weak???

Anyway, I don't play vanilla JO online anymore. I only play with ProMod now, because it makes the game what it SHOULD HAVE BEEN in the first place. If you haven't used it, you need to check it out and learn about how and why it works so well. It totally changes the way Multi-Player works, and it does away with exploit spam attacks! It was created by a guy who was basically where YOU are now.

ProMod 3 was just released today. Check it out. Maybe it will re-establish JO in your mind. We're trying to grow a community here -hopefully it will become a standard. If it does, everybody stands to benefit.


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Old 12-01-2002, 02:47 AM   #3
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Tarus. Many of your comments both I and some of the community have shared. If you want a suggestion as to what to do, look into the jedi outcast mod called Promod.

Promod 3.0 has just been released. Look into it, donwload it, it's less than a megabyte. this isn't jedimod or jedi plus. They are fun enhancements to be sure, no disrespect intended to that community.

However, if you're looking for something that seriously addresses the issues you're having, and seeks to create a game that is competitively balanced all across the board, i.e, more than one area of expertise in this game can excel, and skill is necessary rather than exploit, then promod is your mod. Yes, there is a jetpack, but I assure you that it is customized to fit the game. Of course, the 3.0 hasn't been out that long, but I can assure you that you'll be hard pressed to find a weapon or gadget that will trump all other things. The lightsaber does double damage against non saber wielding opponents, higher normal saber damage rates for duels. The saber blocking system has been made very predictable, i.e it's not random, you musth ave a very precise aim AND stance ready to defend yourself. The list of options and enhancements are too many to go into. This is what you're looking for.


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Old 12-01-2002, 03:00 AM   #4
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...

I noticed promod after posting this and I plan on giving it a try...once there are some servers.

Sounds interesting.
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Old 12-01-2002, 08:01 AM   #5
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I just went on the promod server, it was very fun, but I could use any custom skins, I wanted Jango Vs Obi-Wan.
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Old 12-01-2002, 09:29 AM   #6
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Well, as for online spam attacks, thats not raven's or lucasart's fault. The people make the community,and the community makes the people. If one goes bad or crappy, the entire symbiotic relationship falls with it.

If people would stop saying it is dead; it wouldn't be dead, etc.


The online MP of Jedi Outcast is only crappy when you

A) lag too much

b) lag too much (that counts as twice)

c)fight some server admin who sucks then they kick you because you beat them

d) fight a person who spams the same move........over..and over.....and over......etc.

e)lag too much. (ok, thats three)




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Old 12-01-2002, 01:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Well, as for online spam attacks, thats not raven's or lucasart's fault. The people make the community,and the community makes the people. If one goes bad or crappy, the entire symbiotic relationship falls with it.

If people would stop saying it is dead; it wouldn't be dead, etc.


The online MP of Jedi Outcast is only crappy when you

A) lag too much

b) lag too much (that counts as twice)

c)fight some server admin who sucks then they kick you because you beat them

d) fight a person who spams the same move........over..and over.....and over......etc.

e)lag too much. (ok, thats three)

I have a problem w/ D. What do you mean by "spam?" I'll tell you, you're one of those players that would get pissed off if someone kicks you to death right? I'm sorry, that's not spam. Spam is lightning. Spam is drain. Spam is healing. Kicking takes skill (being good at it). Swinging your saber randomly does not.
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Old 12-01-2002, 04:40 PM   #8
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To me spam is when you DO use it over and over and over...

EX:
-You kill me by only kicking me in the face. Okay. Good job...I know that takes skill to do. But if that is the ONLY way you kill people then it is spam.

Lightning...toss it out a alot? Okay. Once again, if that is all you do then you are spamming the move.

It comes down to onlyhaving the skill to do one thing and then just running with it. Kick, lighting, drain, whatever...if you do it well then okay...if you do it ALL THE TIME then stop spamming it.

I don't consider Healing to be a spam...that keeps you alive. If you have to use it alot then just get better at fighting.


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Old 12-01-2002, 04:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kam Riser
To me spam is when you DO use it over and over and over...

EX:
-You kill me by only kicking me in the face. Okay. Good job...I know that takes skill to do. But if that is the ONLY way you kill people then it is spam.

Lightning...toss it out a alot? Okay. Once again, if that is all you do then you are spamming the move.

It comes down to onlyhaving the skill to do one thing and then just running with it. Kick, lighting, drain, whatever...if you do it well then okay...if you do it ALL THE TIME then stop spamming it.

I don't consider Healing to be a spam...that keeps you alive. If you have to use it alot then just get better at fighting.
Ok..let me explain something. If I kick you to death, that's more humiliating to you. Bitching about spam is just that, bitching. It's so you can gain some sort of self-respect by passing someone off as a, God forbid, "spammer," even though that person didn't even have to use anything else. Spam is a stupid concept in games and should be kept to chat rooms. Thank you.
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Old 12-01-2002, 05:11 PM   #10
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Spamming a move is different from using a move to get an advantage.

Example:


If you stand there and shoot lightening, a person charges you, you run away, sneak up, use lightening, run away, sneak up, use lightening, that is spam.

Using lightening, fighting, is not.

I don't know if that cleared anything up, but i think it's a relatively logical answer.




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Old 12-01-2002, 05:13 PM   #11
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Ok people, this is a game. There is no code of ethics or any of that bull****. There is no spamming. You live or you die. There are those on top and those that complain about those on top. If you can't beat someone, shut the hell up and live w/ it or keep practicing.
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Old 12-01-2002, 05:24 PM   #12
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Good players don't spam moves, they merely use single moves a lot. A spammer is someone who uses a move more than they need to. For example, someone who uses force-pull about 5 times in a row, despite the fact that just once is enough. Or someone who fills a corridor with flechette shots without actually aiming a single one.
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Old 12-01-2002, 05:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Good players don't spam moves, they merely use single moves a lot. A spammer is someone who uses a move more than they need to. For example, someone who uses force-pull about 5 times in a row, despite the fact that just once is enough. Or someone who fills a corridor with flechette shots without actually aiming a single one.

I agree w/ that.
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Old 12-01-2002, 05:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Break_dF


Spam is lightning. Spam is drain. Spam is healing.



Quote:
Originally posted by Break_dF
There is no spamming.

You have just contradicted yourself.

I am now officially confused.




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Old 12-01-2002, 05:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13








You have just contradicted yourself.

I am now officially confused.

Obi, you seem intelligent...take the posts into context. Examples...hmm, ok, I should've said that ppl should bitch about lightning, drain, etc, and I would understand it. It's just button pushing. I thought that was inferred...anyway, personally, I don't think that's spamming. I don't think spamming applies to games in the active sense...read Detric's post. Now, if you're still confused (which is likely) go read some of Emerson's essays on what it means to be great.
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Old 12-01-2002, 05:58 PM   #16
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DeTRiTiC-iQ does indeed make a good point. I do agree with it. Pulling that many times is ridiculous.


on the part about Ralph Waldo Emerson, I have read his essays. (quite a few of them anyway). Good guy, he was.




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Old 12-01-2002, 06:00 PM   #17
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Your kidding right? You thinking getting kicked to death is embaressing?

Kicking people to death is much easier then killing them with a saber. Only thing more easier, I think, is shooting that one explosive gun.

If you think you have skill becuase you can kick someone to death then I think your thoughts are clouded. This games a joke. A kick does more damage then a saber and can't be defended? bleh. If someone kicks at a jedi I would be more inclined to say they would lose their leg.
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Old 12-01-2002, 06:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tarus
Your kidding right? You thinking getting kicked to death is embaressing?

Kicking people to death is much easier then killing them with a saber. Only thing more easier, I think, is shooting that one explosive gun.

If you think you have skill becuase you can kick someone to death then I think your thoughts are clouded. This games a joke. A kick does more damage then a saber and can't be defended? bleh. If someone kicks at a jedi I would be more inclined to say they would lose their leg.
Let me apologize for ..LEARNING THE GAME! Jeez, if you spent half as much time playing as you did bitching then you may actually be a good player.
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Old 12-01-2002, 06:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13
DeTRiTiC-iQ does indeed make a good point. I do agree with it. Pulling that many times is ridiculous.


on the part about Ralph Waldo Emerson, I have read his essays. (quite a few of them anyway). Good guy, he was.
I was referring to when he says, "to be great is to be misunderstood." There's a whole essay dedicated to self-contradiction.

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Old 12-01-2002, 06:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tarus
Really Disappointed with this game...
So don't play it. Or go play singleplayer. Or make some singleplayer.
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Old 12-01-2002, 08:05 PM   #21
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I find it funny how people are so quick to insult a person because of their "Spamming" or "X-move-combo takes no skill", yet when challenged to do it themselves, for some odd reason they can never seem to pull it off...

Must be because they have too much "honor" and nothing to do with the complexity of doing something more than running around with mouse 1 held down and jumping like a moron...

Let me provide a perfect example for you.
{FotS} Clan Server - Saber Only FF (66.150.29.213:27942)

You will see nothing but people turning on Absorb and popping off one DFA after another. Hell, they donít really even aim the damn things; they just do them over and over.

That's it.
Not a single move other than that.
Would that be called Spam?
By most people's definition, yes.

But, I also should mention that I have been kicked from this server several times for beating the Hell out of them in front of their own clan mates.

How was this accomplished?
They did the same attacks; I did the same (effective) counters.

Last edited by Genes1s; 12-01-2002 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 12-01-2002, 08:11 PM   #22
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I'm also dissapointed in this game as well. It requires too much luck and too much time to get good at. I joined the Jedi Academy a while back, but with school and all I can't devote all my time to a game. It seems like there are people who are great at the game and people who suck at it; no in between like in most other games. All I wanted was a fun Heretic II meets Star Wars game from Raven Software, and instead we get this extremely difficult game that got no support at all and the company paid no attention to the community. They rushed this game out and threw together a few patches and that was it. I really hope that Knights of the Old Republic will be a lot better than this game.
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Old 12-01-2002, 08:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Genes1s
I find it funny how people are so quick to insult a person because of their "Spamming" or "X-move-combo takes no skill", yet when challenged to do it themselves, for some odd reason they can never seem to pull it off...

Must be because they have too much "honor" and nothing to do with the complexity of doing something more than running around with mouse 1 held down and jumping like a moron...

Let me provide a perfect example for you.
{FotS} Clan Server - Saber Only FF (66.150.29.213:27942)

You will see nothing but people turning on Absorb and DFA.

That's it.
Not a single move other than that.
Would that be called Spam?
By most people's definition, yes.

But, I also should mention that I have been kicked from this server several times for beating the Hell out of them in front of their own clan mates.

How was this accomplished?
They did the same attacks; I did the same (effective) counters.

Holy Jesus, Preach IT! You're right on the money. Dead on. By the way, that clan hates me, I mean HATES me. I was banned from there a LONG time ago. For what reason you ask? Well...they started the talk when I came in their server soo, I was as whorish as possible and completely dominated their server. They just passed me off as a scripter. Too bad it's impossible to script ptk...stupid, stupid people.
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Old 12-01-2002, 08:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Demolisher
I'm also dissapointed in this game as well. It requires too much luck and too much time to get good at. I joined the Jedi Academy a while back, but with school and all I can't devote all my time to a game. It seems like there are people who are great at the game and people who suck at it; no in between like in most other games. All I wanted was a fun Heretic II meets Star Wars game from Raven Software, and instead we get this extremely difficult game that got no support at all and the company paid no attention to the community. They rushed this game out and threw together a few patches and that was it. I really hope that Knights of the Old Republic will be a lot better than this game.
Well, for a beginner this game can be very difficult and that's simply because it has nothing to do w/ luck. Yes there are those who really suck and those that are good but there seems to be a teir of skill based on what game type people play and who they play. For example, people from the old Quakesh*t servers own at FF saber dueling...it's almost impossible to catch back up w/ 6 months of experience.
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Old 12-01-2002, 09:52 PM   #25
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I believe the word everyone is looking for is "repetitive". Not saying it is. I've been playing it for a couple months now and its still very fun to play. Even though I hate to run into Force Spammers..


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Old 12-01-2002, 10:13 PM   #26
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i agree with Euro, i've been at it for a couple months, and i think it gets better. joined a group (a clan if you will call it) and made some good friends (Viva!!). learning how to kick someone's ass with yellow stance, while they red dfa away is also quite pleasing.
i think it is a great game, and dont think i've clocked this many hours into any other game...EVER!.. kidna scary really... plus i'm getting into (or trying to get into) skinning, so another aspect opens up. as for the earlier comments (arguements i should say) about spamming/kicking/etc, i always get a kick (no pun intended ) out of kickin someone to death, (it says, "Noob recieved a swift kick in the face from Noob Killer) or whatever, anywho, just my two cents


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Old 12-02-2002, 12:48 AM   #27
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I do have to agree with the notion that there is a major split between the good and not so good. The "average" players that populate most other games are not as common as they are in JK2.

The main reason, as far as sabers/Force go, is because there is no great "equalizer" attack that everyone can do to shift the tide.

Sure there are things like the DFA that can end a match quickly, but really let's be honest; it is such a high risk move that usually the person who attempts it is the first to die.

Other games like Quake 3 have weapons like the rocket launcher, and even in the hands of a so-so player, a decent score can be achieved.

A lot of people whined about the backstab in 1.03, but to be honest, it is exactly what the average player needed to be able to compete with people of a higher skill level.
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Old 12-02-2002, 03:38 PM   #28
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the game requires a lot of skill compared to some. u have to have good fps and timing to kick well.

there isn't anymove in JO thats cheap.

i get booted from servers from pushing newbs off edges. its there fault. since they are near an edge and jump up anyway. i pull kick and gete booted also, unless im in an xpert room, which alot of ppl use pull kick then.

its a unique game thats good.

my only complaint with the game is that even with speed and hop, its still so slow. well its fast close range, but at actually running long distances, u move so slow, even hopping.
when i first played it, i hated it. it was way too slow for me at first and i thought it was newby. i thought the game was slow and the force was too weak (they took out destruct and surges and speed doesn't regen during speed).

the game has its uniqueness like pull kick, grip kick and stuff like that, which make it good.

for those of u who say its a gun game, its really boring as a gun game. JKI now is a gun game for ff guns. jkii is better designed as a sab game just because their isn't a power gun. the splash damage radius is too small and too slow, the flechette is powerful, but not godly. the major splash damage guns don't fire straight like in most gun games. now i play alot of ctf and ff dstar guns. The only reason why the guns suffice is cuz the game is so slow at long ranges


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Old 12-03-2002, 02:20 PM   #29
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The game requires a certain amount of skill, I agree. I have no problem with that and if I spent the time I could, no doubt, become quite skilled at the game.

What I don't like is that often times the game goes to the best scripter. I hate using scripts as its more fun to pull the move off....however if someone who is using a script goes against me then they have the advantage usually. Things like saber lock, again, in most cases the better scripter wins.

The other main thing that I dislike is the style of play. I want a quick paced sword fight with attacks and counter attacks. If I see someone doing a DFA I should be able to pull a counter move which will block it and perhaps leave the guy open....the game lacks that sort of thing. Most saber fights seem to be nothing more then a guy swing his heavy stance over and over.

Someone was telling me there is no way to make animations which means no way to make custom moves in a mod...which, if true, destroys any chance of this game ever being much fun to me. Hopefully they'll design a saber intensive game....doubtful though.
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Old 12-03-2002, 10:13 PM   #30
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At least you took (does math) 7 months to decide that it's disappointing, rather than taking five minutes like some other people ^_^.


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Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
This would be really funny if it weren't happening to me.
In the land of California, in the heat of San Jose the dark haired PSIONIC JEDI forged in secret a master computer to control all others and into this computer he poured his money, his computer parts and many screws
One computer to rule them all. One computer to find the foes
One computer to bring them all to hell and in the darkness conquer
In the online gaming world where the envying ones lie.
-Original dito119
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Old 12-04-2002, 12:06 AM   #31
Prime
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I'm also dissapointed in this game as well. It requires too much luck and too much time to get good at. I joined the Jedi Academy a while back, but with school and all I can't devote all my time to a game. It seems like there are people who are great at the game and people who suck at it; no in between like in most other games. All I wanted was a fun Heretic II meets Star Wars game from Raven Software, and instead we get this extremely difficult game that got no support at all and the company paid no attention to the community. They rushed this game out and threw together a few patches and that was it. I really hope that Knights of the Old Republic will be a lot better than this game.
As for taking too much time to get good at, I found it was riding a bike. Once you find out the tricks, the game is pretty easy and fun. However, like it or not, if you don't spend as much time as other people playing it, they will be better than you. It's like most things that way.

As for "no support from Raven Software", are you serious? Whether you like the game or not, you can't say they "paid no attention to the comunity". For starters, they released development tools and MP source code so the moders out there could go to work. This allowed things like Promod, etc. to be developed to cater to peoples personal tastes. They were under no obligation to do that. Their developers were active on these forums answering many questions and providing help. They released several patches to try and improve the MP game, not just fix bugs. They listened to peoples' opinions about gameplay issues and tried to correct them (I leave it to you to judge if they succeeded or not). I for one think the game is better now than it was when it was first released. I'm not sure why you think the game was rushed (serious question). And actually, they made the game easier than they could have because they wanted the game to be fun for the average Joe, not just the super-geeks. Imagine if you had to manually block? How difficult do you think it would be then? You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but at least give Raven a little credit for making a pretty decent game (especially SP).

You'll also be sorry to hear that KOTOR will be of a completely different style to JO. You will have no control over the swings you make or what moves you do. You will simply point and click to say "kill that guy", a la Baldur's Gate. As far as first person Jedi experience, JO is as good as it gets. I'm sorry that you are disappointed with it.

Cheers
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