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Old 01-10-2003, 08:25 AM   #1
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Right-to-Die

Every year thousands of people discover they have a terminal illness. Regardless of the specific illness, perceptions about life and death are forever changed. Euthanasia (assisted suicide), a very controversial issue, isn't easy to discuss let alone execute.

People who believe that assisted suicide should be legalized maintain that individuals should have control over the timing and manner of their own deaths. Some argue that actively bringing about ones death is no different legally than refusing life-sustaining treatment. However, opponents contend that legalizing assisted suicide will cause many problems. They fear that vulnerable individuals may be coerced into suicide as a result of financial pressure or fear of burdening their families. Religious opposition to assisted suicide is often based on the belief that God, not humans, should make the choices regarding death.

When it comes to your death or that of a loved one-should choice play a role?



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Old 01-10-2003, 09:03 AM   #2
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Personally, I think everbody has the right to chose there own destiny and it's conclusion if they are fortunate enough to have the opportunity.

If a person wishes to die when there is no hope of recovery and life is an endless blur of pain and misery then that is their decision not mine until such time that I am in the same position.

If people don't want euthanasia then sure that is their choice.

But I have no intention of living till I am nothing more than a vegetable sliding into oblivion. If I contract a debilitating or painfull disease, then I don't want to live in a continual drug induced stupor. Life is mean't for "living", it is not to be "ecked out" to please some religious nut or doctor.

When my quality of life no longer meets my expectations, euthanasia will be an option. I hope by then I will be allowed to do it painlessly and with dignity. I hope self-interested people will not do me the indignity and injustice of interfering with my right to die.



"It doesn't matter. Use whatever technique you like. However. Once I've said I'll kill you, your death is assured." --Himura Kenshin
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Old 01-10-2003, 09:27 AM   #3
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I'm for it.

Wise words, skitzo, I agree with everything you said.

People can kill themselves if they want to anyway, no problem there. I say we give them the right to do it properly without train drivers getting haunted at night, or the family of an old geezer getting puked up over a nasty sight.

And God does not have a say in when we die. If he did, we wouldn't have free will. The exact same can be said about birth.


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Old 01-10-2003, 10:14 AM   #4
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I congratulate the netherlands on being the first country to legalize euthanasia. I've had to watch several close relatives, far too young to die, suffer long, painful, cancerous deaths in the past few years. It makes me sick the way they just keep them alive on life support, pumping them with morphine.

Honestly, what kind of quality of life is that?


My mum's family is dutch, so if I ever develop a terminal illness, I can gain dutch citizenship and do what needs to be done, heaven forbid.

If any christians come in here spitting stuff about god and him disagreeing, answer these first. If this 'god' doesn't want us to be able to take our own lives, then why did he make us want to? Why does he kill us off like this? Why did he create these deadly diseases?

He didn't. Satan created them!

bs....

There's a master plan for us all. He has a better use for use now elsewhere

yeah, bs.... if he has a better use, then why take us slowly and painfully? Why make our exit from this life one filled with pain and misery?


People should be able to choose if they want to live or not, providing they have a vaild reason, not just normal depressive suicide.


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Old 01-10-2003, 11:14 AM   #5
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it's not right to go accusing God for our sickness. it's us who caused it since we're the ones who sin. read the Bible someday.


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Old 01-10-2003, 11:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rogue15
it's not right to go accusing God for our sickness. it's us who caused it since we're the ones who sin. read the Bible someday.
But if we caused it, we have the right and power to end it too, no?

By "sin", do you mean the "original sin" which was born when Adam ate the apple etc?

Again: If God chooses when we're born and die, we have no free will.


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Old 01-10-2003, 11:30 AM   #7
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Again - just like abortion- I feel the choice is the choosers. The person who wants to die. It is ridiculous when government tries to control this kind of thing. It is no different than someone jumping off a building. These people just can't roll themselves off a bridge now can they. Modern medicine is keeping them alive...and just barely. You want to talk about god choosing when we die...well....back in the day when they didn't have all this scientific medical crap that keeps you barely on the edge of life...you would have died. Science has made it possible for people to "stay" alive beyond what god more than likely intended us to. If there is a god, and I believe there is one, I'm certain he does not want us to suffer and die a horrible drawn out death. Again, this is a tough choice to make and should only be made by the person that wants to die. As far as, family members having to make the choice cuz the person who is ill can't make the decision themselves. I believe that unless it says it in the WILL that "I want to have assisted suicide should I become terminally ill" etc. that nobody can choose for the person. Because that is just too risky. It has to be in writing from the person or from the person's own mouth.


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Old 01-10-2003, 12:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by GonkH8er
If any christians come in here spitting stuff about god and him disagreeing, answer these first. If this 'god' doesn't want us to be able to take our own lives, then why did he make us want to? Why does he kill us off like this? Why did he create these deadly diseases?

He didn't. Satan created them!

bs....

There's a master plan for us all. He has a better use for use now elsewhere

yeah, bs.... if he has a better use, then why take us slowly and painfully? Why make our exit from this life one filled with pain and misery?
Bulls-eye, as always. But I personally think that one should, so to speak, "hold the knife himself". While jumping out in front of trains is inconsiderate in the extreme, towards the driver, and tends to close down train traffic for an extended period of time, and therefore should not be attempted, I do believe that almost everyone can kill himself in a quick, painless, and practical way if he did some research on the topic.

Assisted suicide, on the other hand, could be abused. Basically, someone could be murdered, and the murderer could go free because the court thought that it was "assisted suicide". We had a really nasty case some time ago in Denmark, about a situation like that. Actually the accused was found innocent, but unfortunately her reputation was utterly destroyed, because the press had already convicted her.

I would feel safer about it if the client would commit ordinary suicide.

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Old 01-10-2003, 12:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Assisted suicide, on the other hand, could be abused. Basically, someone could be murdered, and the murderer could go free because the court thought that it was "assisted suicide". We had a really nasty case some time ago in Denmark, about a situation like that.
But the idea I had in mind was that it would only be possible through the government. This still means a murderer could do this by joining the public job that it required, but of course it would still need to be completely formal. I expect only a written piece of paper, or a taped voice of him wishing euthanasia would be basis for it.

Resorting it at home would be still be illegal.

I don't know though - how are the Dutch doing it?


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Old 01-10-2003, 01:19 PM   #10
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I'm against it.

To want themselves dead is always a foolish thing, and that is why it's illegal doing suicide. People that suffer from many diseases, are not in a condition where they should be able to decide whether they want to live or not, I actually think most of them would regret it (though they can't) if they are killing themselves.

Quote:
I congratulate the netherlands on being the first country to legalize euthanasia. I've had to watch several close relatives, far too young to die, suffer long, painful, cancerous deaths in the past few years. It makes me sick the way they just keep them alive on life support, pumping them with morphine.
The quality of their life is not the point, it is still a life, and should not be thrown away just because they aren't very healthy. And the quality of life can always improve, but if you are dead, you can't come back.

Quote:
People should be able to choose if they want to live or not, providing they have a vaild reason, not just normal depressive suicide.
"Valid reason"? There's no valid reason for killing.

Quote:
When my quality of life no longer meets my expectations, euthanasia will be an option
Well, that's what normal suiciders think too, when their life isn't as good as they want it to be, they want to throw it away like garbage.


But as I said, the major point is that people who suffer from diseases, are not in a good state to decide whether or not they want to live.
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Old 01-10-2003, 02:03 PM   #11
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Qui: Only the person in the factual situation can ultimately make the call on what's best for him/her. If you're in immense pain, death can be a blessing.

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The quality of their life is not the point, it is still a life, and should not be thrown away just because they aren't very healthy. And the quality of life can always improve, but if you are dead, you can't come back.
It can't always improve. It might very well continue to detoriate until your body self destructs. Yes, you can die from feeling bad about yourself. Widowed men sometimes get very physically ill after their wife has died. They've fulfilled their role in society, and either they'll eventually kill themselves, or their own bodies will self destruct.

If you're dead, you're unable to feel pain or suffering. Which might very well be the only thing those persons feel at all.

Regardless, persons in such extremely bad situations will either kill themselves or continue to live in misery until they die a "natural death".


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Old 01-10-2003, 02:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Assisted suicide, on the other hand, could be abused. Basically, someone could be murdered, and the murderer could go free because the court thought that it was "assisted suicide". We had a really nasty case some time ago in Denmark, about a situation like that. Actually the accused was found innocent, but unfortunately her reputation was utterly destroyed, because the press had already convicted her.

I would feel safer about it if the client would commit ordinary suicide.
Shadow Templar, the point with legalising Euthanasia is that it SHOULD provide "proper" legal provisions to protect against coercion. You seem to think that this is impossible. While it may be hard, I don't see it as an impossibility.

The basis for your whole arguement seems to be that because you believe such safeguards are impossible to develope, legalising euthanasia should be dropped all together.

At the end of the day, there are arguments supporting both sides while you may not believe such safegaurds are possible, there are many others like myself who do. Isn't this the issue of the debate, rather than saying, as you did, that people are better off suffering for the sake of those who MAY be coerced?

Please, we're not talking about someone saying, "yep, I want to die, let's do it now". Any law should involve an extensive period, and series of consultations, counselling sessions, and assessments of the patient and the patient's family (physically and pyschologically) and this should only be one aspect of any safegaurd measures.

Abortion is legal and here the fetus doesn't even have a say in its own death and yet euthanasia, where a patient with a terminal illness wants to end his/her life is not.

It's about time the govt. started looking seriously at developing such a law with stringent safety measures taking into account coersion.



"It doesn't matter. Use whatever technique you like. However. Once I've said I'll kill you, your death is assured." --Himura Kenshin
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Old 01-10-2003, 03:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
"Valid reason"? There's no valid reason for killing.
You seem to be a bit hard-line about the words used, for example killing, murder, euthanasia. suicide, etc. But in fact there are wide range of circumstances and situations to which these words can apply:

- Terminating someone's life against their will either for gain, for passion, for 'kicks', or for political reasons (i.e. war-crimes) or in a battle situation, etc. This is usually called murder (except most law seems to usually make an exception for wartime battle situations).

- Accidentally killing someone when it was intended only to injure or frighten them.

- Accidentally killing someone through negligence stupidity or carelessness (i.e. many car accidents).

- Accidentally killing someone through no fault of your own.

- Deliberately killing someone without their consent, when they are terminally ill or wounded say in a war battle-field situation. This would be done to end their suffering or because there is no hope of getting them to appropriate help. It would usually be done for your own convenience not for the benefit of the other person.

- Deliberately killing someone at their own request. - i.e. doctor gives lethal dose to terminally ill patient, soldier kills mortally wounded comrade, etc...

- Helping someone else to end their own life. This might only extened as far as obtaining the necessary materials and/or keeping other people away who might interfere.

- Taking one's own life. Within this there are a wide range of motivations such as to avoiding capture or torture, ending terminal illness, ending severe chronic pain, depression, mental illness, avoidance of a bad situation (financial ruin, family shame, scandal, etc)

- Giving one's life to save someone elses, or to save them further suffering...

I'm sure there are many more. As you can see there are a wide range of situations which involve death. We have widely different laws and sanctions for these acts. I suggest that it's time to think about this a bit more and to widen our laws to cover all these acts appropriately.

Blindly labelling all killing as "wrong" or labelling euthanasia as "murder", doesn't take into account this sort of spectrum and isn't helpfull.



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Old 01-10-2003, 08:09 PM   #14
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Assisted suicide is the most humane thing this world has ever come up with...but most places don't have it because well you are money to them...I can't stand to see some video of someone try to kill themselves and someone manages to save em......there are some rights you just have..born with em and always have em....and having control of your own death is one of em.
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Old 01-10-2003, 08:49 PM   #15
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Yeah, stop taking 'kill' at face value. Humans have all rights to choose their fate.

I can agree with the comment about assisted suicide being abused as a way to get out of murder, and if the government ran it, what's to stop retards from saying the government murdered them against their will and then suing them? People in America make idiotic lawsuits all the time, and chances are the government would just make an out-of-court settlement with the family, costing yet more money to the government.

Pain and suffering.. yeah, you're not always going to recover. If your hospital stay is costing millions to your family, just to keep you alive and suffering for a few years, that's silly. In a case like that, Euthenesia is totally okay by me.
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Old 01-10-2003, 09:13 PM   #16
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Skitzo: I'm not saying that the concept should be dropped altogether. I'm saying that I want to see those failsaves first. By all means conduct research on this subject.

Even if the research fails to find safeguards against abuse of assisted suicide, it would most certaily still unearth new knowledge about the methods of fraud/coercion/delusions. Knowledge is never bad. But I don't think that it is safe yet. And until such time as it is, I am opposed.

Also, I basically don't find that there is a need for it. I think that anyone who is physically capable of undergoing the check procedures is capable of killing himself in a painless and quick way.

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Old 01-10-2003, 09:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Also, I basically don't find that there is a need for it. I think that anyone who is physically capable of undergoing the check procedures is capable of killing himself in a painless and quick way.
I disagree.

I believe it's very possible for would-be "suicidists" to end up hurting themselves immensly (but not dying) and scarring others emotionally. Think of the train drivers dammit. It's not their job to cope with people killing themselves.

If a teenager in distress cuts his own wrists, he might end up at a hospital, but barely alive. Or that person who thinks wrestling with bulls is a good way to go. I'm sure you can think of many other creative forms of suicide which would render the subject in much more pain than before.


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Old 01-11-2003, 04:40 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
The quality of their life is not the point, it is still a life, and should not be thrown away just because they aren't very healthy. And the quality of life can always improve, but if you are dead, you can't come back.
Actually, it IS the point. Why bother living if it's just pain and suffering? To prove that you can endure it? To show them you're tough? What good will that do, honestly.

And most of the time, when euthanasia is what they turn to, there is NO getting better.

Like with my good friend who passed a few years back.... when you're haemorhaging just because move the tiniest bit, and you're losing litres of blood everytime you haemorhage, there's no getting better. They kept her alive for weeks like that, pumping her full of painkillers. They knew she wouldn't live. Everyone knew. She knew, and she accepted it. She didn't want to stick around and be a burden. She wanted to slip away quickly. Yet, they kept her alive.... why? Honestly, why the hell would you do that? What reason woul dsomeone have to keep that person alive, other than to delay their own greiving. There is NO quality of life there. Absolutly none whatsoever. She couldn't even sit up to talk to people. As soon as she was put in that palative care bed, she wasn't going to leave it. Everyone knew it. She was made to endure and suffer, and for what? Absolutely nothing.

Yeah, so she stayed with us for a little longer, but it was agonizing for her. Utterly agonizing and pathetically cruel. She deserved better.


It's not a simple case of them being not so healthy as you put it. These people have terminal illnesses. Laying in a bed, losing litres of blood everyday, hardly being able to talk, looking like crap and being in incredible pain- I wouldn't call that living at all. It's a pathetic excuse for life.


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Old 01-11-2003, 05:12 AM   #19
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Ditto gonkh8er, it should be the quality of life, not endurance of life, one of the main purposes to life is living it and being confined to a hospital bed without the ability to do much of anything, where nothing is worth anything, isn't what i'd call living, and perhaps scientists find a cure 20 years, but then the patients just wasted that much of their life, and it probably cost millions of dollars to keep them alive
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Old 01-11-2003, 05:22 AM   #20
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Many years ago, Crazy Horse echoed a Souix Indian saying to his men just before battle, "It is a good day to die."

He was referring to the fact that they lived their lives properly and if they died in battle then there should be no regrets.

Often the suffering that someone may feel doesn't end with only themselves. If I were terminally ill and my being "maintained" created a hardship on my family, then when my time finally does come, it would not be a "good day to die." I would regret that I put my family through that pain and discomfort of seeing me, caring for me, and interrupting their lives.

But one can suffer through more than just terminal illness.... I can think of many instances in which death may be preferable to living in situations involving redemption of honor. Many cultures throughout the world believe that suicide can save face and preserve family honor.

My life is mine, but living it can affect others. Taking can also affect others, so suicide is certainly not the quick choice, but must be meditated upon and consequences must be anticipated pro and con. I suspect that most who have engaged in euthenasia have done so, the exception being those mentally distraught individuals (such as teenagers) who tragically take their lives out of frustration, fear, and depression.

In these situations, it is family and friends who stand the best chance of easing the pain... not suicide. If this type of suicide occurs, the fault usually resides with the survivors.

But my life is mine. If I commit suicide and it's illegal..... arrest me.


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Old 01-13-2003, 05:45 AM   #21
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I believe that every one has the right to die by their own hands if they are really wanting it, and that not even the government should be able to step in to prevent it. Do you know its illegal to try to commit suicide? I think thats utterly ridiculous. If a person is desperate enough and wants to do it. Let them, because if they are desperate enough, nothing anyone can say, despite all chances, can really stop someone, and like I said, the government should NOT interfere.


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Old 01-13-2003, 05:48 AM   #22
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I believe it's illegal to attempt to commit suicide, not just actually doing it. If you're successful in your attempt, then there's not much they can do about it really is there. Arrest your pet dog?


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Old 01-13-2003, 06:25 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by GonkH8er
I believe it's illegal to attempt to commit suicide, not just actually doing it. If you're successful in your attempt, then there's not much they can do about it really is there. Arrest your pet dog?
illegal huh?..what a sad world we live in...we truly are slaves...
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Old 01-13-2003, 10:17 AM   #24
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u know we put animals "down" everyday just because there isn't enough room for them at the shelters. We consider this humane. We consider it human to shot a horse in the head when he is suffering. The horse or the animal doesn't get to say "shoot me please". Here...the person is saying "please help me die painlessly"...and we don't consider this humane??? Like I said before Modern medicine is prolonging these peoples lives..whom otherwise would have been dead a long time ago. Yes, the medicine is for helping them....improving quality of life, perhaps healing them. But when the medicine has failed, when it isn't improving the quality of life and you are suffering. You should be allowed to choose the suicide route. Like I said...you know its "illegal" for people to commit suicide...and they CAN because who is going to catch these people. But these terminally ill patients who can't even lift there head....they can't roll themselves out the window if they want to now can they? Of course we are going to deny them the right to choose to leave the world if they want to because we can control them. The others who commit suicide..because they are selfish or for what ever reason...they can jump off a bridge if they want to any old time they wish - for stupider reasons than laying in a hospital bed getting poked, proded and in so much pain you can't bare it anymore. Like I said...and yes the whole god thing. But I don't think god would want us to suffer that way. Our time is over and the modern medicine kept you alive...but god is slowly taking that away - you are dying. Let these people die if they so wish. It has got to be the hardest damn choice in the world to make. Why should we let the government determine it for us. Ridicoulous.


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Old 01-13-2003, 10:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by RoguePhotonic
illegal huh?..what a sad world we live in...we truly are slaves...
Why is that sad? Suicide is a really bad thing, you know. Most of those who commit suicide are teenagers who got dumped by their girlfriend or something. People who really has something to live for, but just can't see what there and then. And what about family and friends? Suicide simply isn't a good thing, and I am glad people do a lot to try to stop it, for example by making it illegal.

About the original topic: People are stupid. In general, I mean, of course, I'm not talking about anyone here. Anyway, these stupid people are suffering from bad diseases, so that the stupid people are even in worse condition to decide on such an important matter on whether they want to live or not. What if they just feel a lot of pain right there and then, so that they don't want to live anymore, right then? If enuthanasia would become legal, I am sure that a lot of those descisions on whether they want to live or not, are not well enough thought through, and people who actually could have good later on in their lives, will die without much reason.
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Old 01-13-2003, 11:05 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Suicide simply isn't a good thing, and I am glad people do a lot to try to stop it, for example by making it illegal.


Do you honestly think that someone contemplating suicide is really going to care that it is "illegal", its also a sin in the bible. But if they are really set on it - nothing is going to stop them from it. Especially if there are no concequences they have to face for breaking the law.


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Old 01-13-2003, 01:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn
Why is that sad? Suicide is a really bad thing, you know. Most of those who commit suicide are teenagers who got dumped by their girlfriend or something. People who really has something to live for, but just can't see what there and then. And what about family and friends? Suicide simply isn't a good thing, and I am glad people do a lot to try to stop it, for example by making it illegal.

About the original topic: People are stupid. In general, I mean, of course, I'm not talking about anyone here. Anyway, these stupid people are suffering from bad diseases, so that the stupid people are even in worse condition to decide on such an important matter on whether they want to live or not. What if they just feel a lot of pain right there and then, so that they don't want to live anymore, right then? If enuthanasia would become legal, I am sure that a lot of those descisions on whether they want to live or not, are not well enough thought through, and people who actually could have good later on in their lives, will die without much reason.
I'm not certain you fully understand the purpose of legalizing euthenasia...it would only be offered to people who have been diagnosed with a terminal disease, one that cannot be cured, and will be painful to endure, and that person must give thier consent. They are going ot die anyway, let them die on their own terms.



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Old 01-13-2003, 01:55 PM   #28
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If you think about it, what type of world are we living in, if we cannot even choose to end a life full of misery? If we wish to end our lives, we should have the ability to do so. I support the idea of Euthanasia, as we all should have the choice of whether to live or die, it is only right.


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Old 01-13-2003, 06:37 PM   #29
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Why does it always have to be a sad thing?....I have always planned to kill myself one day and it's not a sad thing or having a bad life...it's just that when I'm done with life I will which I think maybe in about 10 years max....

Point is not everyone kills themselves because they are sad....
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Old 01-16-2003, 04:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by STTCT
Do you honestly think that someone contemplating suicide is really going to care that it is "illegal", its also a sin in the bible. But if they are really set on it - nothing is going to stop them from it. Especially if there are no concequences they have to face for breaking the law.
Well, having it illegal makes the goverment say like "Don't do it!". If suicide gets legalized however, then the message from the goverment would be understood as "Oh, go ahead, we don't care". It might stop them. And if it stops anyone, then it is worth it.
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