JK: Jedi Academy Info, Pics and Discussion! (ancient) - Page 9

ChangKhan[RAVEN] · 03-31-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Besides, an SDK isn't the source code to the entire game. We wouldn't have access to the original Quake 3 engine code, or any of the additions Raven made. We would have the same kind of limitations as the multiplayer SDK. Afterall its not exactly within our power to release a standalone multiplayer game either.

The other issue here is that the game code was in a DLL and not the Quake 3-style VMs that are nice and safe. That's probably one of the biggest issues.

Quote:

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
From past information Its obvious that you wanted to release as much as possible for modders, but the reasoning behind being unable to has generally not made a lot of sense. Especially when other gaming companies have made their fortune from making games easy to mod.

Actually, the only real examples of this are Quake and Half-Life, and both of those were multiplayer mods, not single-player mods. I can't really think of a single-player code mod for a game that has benefitted the developer or publisher at all....?

mariners2001 · 03-31-2003, 07:30 PM

Oh...and while we have Chang_Khan here....I was wondering if it would be possible to add the ability to ledge-grab? After playing such games as Tomb Raider and Indiana Jones...I think it's safe to say this would be a logical and significant addition to the game. The ability to grab onto a ledge after being push would add more balance to the game..

striderx2048 · 03-31-2003, 07:37 PM

Jedi Knight 3
Story & World
The game plays in the X-Men world and revolves around the coming-of-age story of Magma, a less known X-Men character (appearing first in New Mutants). The game features 19 Marvel mutant characters from various time periods, including Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast, Nightcrawler etc. The story is written by experienced Marvel writers, among them Joey Casey, Steven Seagle and more.

mariners2001 · 03-31-2003, 07:40 PM

LOL! Yeah. I saw that....hopefully just a misprint and not an addition to a bad April Fool's Joke..lol

DeTRiTiC-iQ · 03-31-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
The other issue here is that the game code was in a DLL and not the Quake 3-style VMs that are nice and safe. That's probably one of the biggest issues.

That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks

Since i'm assuming JK3 will face the same issues in terms of singleplayer development maybe include some more workarounds to problems? In JK2 we managed to include new NPCs using extra npc config files. Maybe extend this so we can have new quest/mission-based inventory items?

Maybe have it so you can have interconnected levels that you can go back and forth between, collecting items to solve puzzles in old areas etc. ie making it possible for editors to make Deus Ex style missions.

Although I don't know the inner-workings of the engine, these ideas don't sound too tricky to implement.

Toonces · 03-31-2003, 08:04 PM

Nice to see you around here again Chang

One question I have is weather or not some type of support could be added for custom, or non-humanoid skeletions? I'm coming completely from an artists perspective, and not a programer, so It may not be possible, but one of the things I always wanted to add was some custom animations for my models. (flowing tenticles, more realistic clothing) Also, any chance of seeing a "ragdoll" type physics system implemented?

I'm very anxious to see what you guys can come up with, especially within such a short time. I plan to rework some of my models and import them into the next game.

MuRaSaMuNe · 03-31-2003, 08:05 PM

Ledge grab would seriously rule.. especially if you could force flip yourself back up and stuff.

mariners2001 · 03-31-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Ledge grab would seriously rule.. especially if you could force flip yourself back up and stuff.

Lol yeah...exactly!! Like Obi-Wan with Darth Maul in TPM.

You know...if it's in the movies - it's gotta be in the game.

Imperial Jawa · 03-31-2003, 08:09 PM

Ok yes ledge grabbing would rule. Everyone who wants this in post now or forever hold your peace!

Toonces · 03-31-2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperial Jawa
Ok yes ledge grabbing would rule. Everyone who wants this in post now or forever hold your peace!

Yes, this would be a good idea, and I'd like to see it implimented, but....

I'm not one of the moderators of this forum, but I am LFN staff, so I'm asking everybody, please, lets not spam up this thread by requesting ledge grabing, or whatever feature multiple times. There is a good dialogue going on here, and I'd like to keep the "spam" to a minium

(below)edit: No worries Plo

Lord_Plo_Koon · 03-31-2003, 08:18 PM

It is a must have!!! We need it!

Edit: Opps. Sorry. I posted the same time you did.

mariners2001 · 03-31-2003, 08:21 PM

hmm...maybe i'll start a new thread to petition for it.....please everyone who wants ledge grabbing (which it looks like are plenty) move to the new thread i'll start....

Petition here

DarkLord60 · 03-31-2003, 08:36 PM

I agree with toonces we dont need people spaming the forums about request for JK3

ChangKhan[RAVEN] · 03-31-2003, 08:50 PM

Okay, well, first off, if I'm going to answer any of the questions, I guess I need to admit that we are, indeed, making this game (should be pretty obvious by now, so no-one should get mad at me for admitting as much). No, it's not a hoax/joke/rumor, no, it's not an expansion pack, it is a full, complete, stand-alone game. And it's called Jedi Knight III right now for lack of a better name, I, personally, would not call it a "sequel" to JK2 since I think a DF/JK game should always be about the Katarns (maybe a true JK3 could be about Kyle and Jan's child, who perhaps shows a particularly strong adeptness with the Force...?) So I wouldn't be surprised if the name doesn't stay "Jedi Knight III" (but who knows). Not that it's not a full game, it's bigger than JK2 in terms of gameplay, content and features, it's just not, in my opinion, the true sequel to JK2. I think that one shouldn't be done for a year or so and should probably use a new engine.

Now, onto questions:

Quote:

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Since i'm assuming JK3 will face the same issues in terms of singleplayer development maybe include some more workarounds to problems? In JK2 we managed to include new NPCs using extra npc config files. Maybe extend this so we can have new quest/mission-based inventory items?

New inventory items? Hmm... well, that would require us to really make the inventory stuff a lot more externalized than it currently is. Not a totally trivial thing. However, with ICARUS scripting you could easily simulate something like this. Place a misc_model_breakable and have it so that when the player hits a trigger, it removes it, sets a variable, fires off a script, whatever you want - it can affect anything you want it to.

Along these lines, though, I do want to make modding easier. I've already made it easier to add new NPCs and custom sabers of all kinds of configurations, and there may be some other things that will make content mods easier to accomplish... we'll see.

Quote:

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Maybe have it so you can have interconnected levels that you can go back and forth between, collecting items to solve puzzles in old areas etc. ie making it possible for editors to make Deus Ex style missions.

Again, this isn't trivial, a hub-style interconnectivity between levels is a lot of work. However, we did do this for the expasion pack to Elite Force so, technically, it's still a feature of our game, just one we're not using. I don't know if it still works, but someone could try it (either look at a "Virtual Voyager" map file or just try it - I believe it's just a spawnflag on the target_level_change entity.

Quote:

Originally posted by striderx2048
The game plays in the X-Men world and revolves around the coming-of-age story of Magma, a less known X-Men character (appearing first in New Mutants). The game features 19 Marvel mutant characters from various time periods, including Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast, Nightcrawler etc. The story is written by experienced Marvel writers, among them Joey Casey, Steven Seagle and more.

Oh, yeah, we decided to combine the Star Wars and X-Men licenses, we figured they're both pretty big right now, so what would be bigger? X-Wars! Heh... yeah, that's a bit of a typo, there...

Quote:

Originally posted by Toonces
One question I have is weather or not some type of support could be added for custom, or non-humanoid skeletions? I'm coming completely from an artists perspective, and not a programer, so It may not be possible, but one of the things I always wanted to add was some custom animations for my models. (flowing tenticles, more realistic clothing)

Well, you should already be able to do that. The problem was trying to add animations to the humanoid skeleton. You can make your own skeletons, but rebuilding our skeleton with your animations in them wasn't working. At this point, I'm not sure whether this will be improved in this game, but I promise I'll be looking into it as we get closer to being done. Right now, we're just trying to hit our milestones.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toonces
Also, any chance of seeing a "ragdoll" type physics system implemented?

That's a definite "maybe".

Wacky_Baccy · 03-31-2003, 08:57 PM

Mike, you rock

Welcome back to the insanity

***matt--*** · 03-31-2003, 09:00 PM

As long as we're making suggestions/comments: include an objective based game, not unlike UT's Assault mode.

I know that JK2 had an undocumented 'saga' mode, but it was just that, undocumented. Please please please support and even release maps of this type for this new game.

ChangKhan[RAVEN] · 03-31-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matt-windu
As long as we're making suggestions/comments: include an objective based game, not unlike UT's Assault mode.

I know that JK2 had an undocumented 'saga' mode, but it was just that, undocumented. Please please please support and even release maps of this type for this new game.

We are planning on adding one entirely new MP game type, but we're not discussing it right now...

mariners2001 · 03-31-2003, 09:09 PM

Mike, you do indeed kick ass...

So any comments on the possibility of ledge-grabbing or implementing SAGA mode into MP?

EDIT: Ooo. A new gametype...sounds great....and btw, will previous maps be usable in JK3 as you see it now?

razorace · 03-31-2003, 09:16 PM

I agree. The only reason why Saga didn't take off was because the mappers didn't support the format because Saga hadn't taken off.

I think the big thing is to fix all the known bugs in the code and try to get LEC to let you guys release patches until the thing is actually bugfree instead of a mostly bugfree state like 1.04. I understand that the legal stuff is a big red tape machine but it's not like you didn't have to fix the bugs in preparation for JK3!

Also, I know that LEC is pushing for a simplistic saber system but it would be nice to have something more involving than the current JK2 system.

Along the same lines, REAL saber collisions in MP is very important. The whole "defensive" saber = big box isn't very realistic or involving. I know it's fixable if you put some work into it (like I am doing on my own).

CanadianSurfer · 03-31-2003, 09:19 PM

Yes, will previous maps be implemeted in the game? Also, the new maps; are they going to be bigger? better? better FPS playing on them?

ChangKhan[RAVEN] · 03-31-2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CanadianSurfer
Yes, will previous maps be implemeted in the game? Also, the new maps; are they going to be bigger? better? better FPS playing on them?

You should still be able to play previous maps, yes. Though the new game type will, obviously, require new maps.

Will the new maps be bigger? Some, yes, others, probably about the same.

Better? Sure.

Better FPS? Well, if you have a better computer, sure, maybe. But if the map is bigger and better, chances are it won't run any faster than old maps did (unless, like I said, you have a better computer now or you turn down detail settings, etc.)

Along these lines, I'm keeping in mind that a lot of people have made a lot of custom player and saber models and I want to make sure that those are still usable in the new game. Unfortunately, to optimize some things and to add certain features (and to make it more mod-friendly), we did make some changes to the model format. I want to try to make sure we release the details about what model-makers need to do to get their JK2 custom models to work in the new game (including, if necessary, releasing some tools a little early to make it so that modders can have their custom models ready-to-play by the time the game hits the shelves).

Sunshine Badass · 03-31-2003, 09:28 PM

And wouldn't it be SAD if it were a little April Fool's joke???

Sorry for intruding, I just need to see what my registry name is here...

Gonkish · 03-31-2003, 09:30 PM

dear god yes. SO YES. I love you guys so much.

The main thing I'm worried about is current JK2 singleplayer projects in the works. (notably my own, which is in its infancy, Sine Nomen's nar shaddaa level (which is amazing.. I love sine), and AKPiggott's equally fantastic Party Crasher. (What else would you expect from Piggott?!

)

Will we be able to a.) port existing JK2 levels to "JK3", and b.) be able to either disable, or at least specify settings for, the player's character, thus allowing us greater control over storytelling?

Oh, and just an offhand question, are you guys using an updated version of sof2map, a new compiler, or the vaunted (and my personal favorite) q3map2? (I'd assume you'd prefer an in-house binary, as it'd give you more control over.. well.. everything...)

I must learn 3ds max, maya, or something, as well as become familiar with scripting languages... definitely going to need to get me a job in a little over a year, and I'm praying to the gaming gods it can be in the industry... *sigh* So much stuff, so little time!

**Prime** · 03-31-2003, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlzWisHum
I thought I was talking with a fellow sw developer, I was only hoping it wasn't an exploited one.

Well, probably not exploited, but lets just say it has been tough times in the telecom sector

Quote:

Originally posted by AlzWisHum
I agree with you.

The good thing most people always end up realizing it isn't really worth it, until they find their most productive state of mind, if you know what I mean.

The younger programmers that usually stay up late in their works, are either the ones that are swept away by it's own ideas, or in the second sorry lifestyle you described, with their heads in how cozy their homes are.

Now that my fiance and I have a house, there is less time for those late work nights

Quote:

Originally posted by AlzWisHum
But we're not talking with you Raven guys, now back to work! Or there will be no muffins for you.

Mmmm. Muffins!!

Anyway, cheers so a fellow software developer!

mariners2001 · 03-31-2003, 09:31 PM

jeez chang....get me all excited......do you expect the system requirements to be the same?

also...will the bots be better?

sithguides · 03-31-2003, 09:32 PM

In the new one, please include bot commands for the different types of gameplay such as CTF.

DeTRiTiC-iQ · 03-31-2003, 09:35 PM

Can we expect many more maps for exisiting gametypes, especially CTF? JK2 was sorely lacking with just four in CTF.

CanadianSurfer · 03-31-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

I want to try to make sure we release the details about what model-makers need to do to get their JK2 custom models to work in the new game (including, if necessary, releasing some tools a little early to make it so that modders can have their custom models ready-to-play by the time the game hits the shelves).

That's excellent to hear, cause I really want to see some maps/mods available in JK3 that people have gotten accustomed to in JK2.

I don't think this is an April Fools joke. The lead programmer just came on and answered many questions. Just cut that stuff out.

DarkLord60 · 03-31-2003, 09:46 PM

Here we go with that ledge-grabbing again.

ryudom · 03-31-2003, 10:00 PM

i'd just like to mention that one of the main things i didn't like about JK2 was the lack of fists!!! JKIII NEEDS fists!!!

03-31-2003, 10:04 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Toonces
Also, any chance of seeing a "ragdoll" type physics system implemented?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a definite "maybe".

--

Ghoul2 craves ragdoll physics it needs it like anime needs huge eyes and pointy chins. I know you want it, I know you know we want. I know you know that we know that you know you want to add it.

But now that you've announced it, are you guys using xsi 3.0 for this? I know theres a xsi 3.0 importer/exporter for maya and that would help maya users create new models. I'm not sure if it geeks out like converting maya to obj somtimes adds double faces and flips normals around and jacks everything up. Any chance of maya support this time?

little pixel shading? bump mapping? radiosity lighting....6 years from now?

CanadianSurfer · 03-31-2003, 10:07 PM

Ahhh, like in UT2003. Those death scenes pwn majorly.

OnlyOneCanoli · 03-31-2003, 10:12 PM

Wow, I missed a lot today. Mike, you kick ass. Thanks so much for taking the time to give us the lowdown.

Quote:

Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
We are planning on adding one entirely new MP game type, but we're not discussing it right now...

The suspense is going to kill me. If this is a team-based objective multiplayer mode, I will die a happy man. If not, then it's still good.

boinga1 · 03-31-2003, 10:12 PM

it's real? it's not a trick? I can finally fantasize about it and come up with 10 charcter ideas in the next hour?!!?

SWEET NECTAR OF THE GODS!

dark jedi 8 · 03-31-2003, 10:14 PM

i hate to barge in here but i have a question.

:have you discussed what counsels this game will be on or ported to? i would really love it if it came out for x-box, well because, my pc really sucks, and i'm no where even close to getting a new one.

Tinny · 03-31-2003, 10:19 PM

maybe not in jk3, but i was wondering if raven might start implementing geomodding style gameplay, likw in red faction

, in the near future

ChangKhan[RAVEN] · 03-31-2003, 10:32 PM

So little answers...

Sorry, when it comes to specific art/modelling/map questions, I'm not really capable of answering those with absolute accuracy, I'm primarily a game programmer - mostly SP, I help out with MP some and I try to keep on top of the mod community. Plus, there are still things I just can't talk about yet...

ryudom · 03-31-2003, 10:35 PM

like... fists? lol

ah, i need that stasis chamber now more then ever hehe

Solo4114 · 03-31-2003, 10:36 PM

Mike,

Welcome back. I've been hoping you guys have been perusing the forums some, taking a look at the critiques, gripes, and praises of JK2. I'll admit I've posted my fair share of the former, but I've always done so in the hopes that the suggestions could be taken into account for future games (hoping that there'd BE future games).

I'd like to ask a few questions here first (and, naturally, throw in a few suggestions/opinions

).

1.) Any chance you can describe how sabre combat will play out? There's been a lot of speculation thus far, but no confirmation one way or another, really. Are we talking one set of moves for each particular style? IE: one set of moves/stance for single sabre, one for two sabres, and one for double-bladed sabres? Or do you plan on using the underlying design from JK2? Will we be having differently powered moves/swings, or will the sabre be pretty much uniformly lethal? For my part, one of the things that was great about JK2 SP and not so hot about 1.04 MP was that the sabre was utterly lethal in one and not nearly as effective in the other. It also never really made sense to me why certain moves were more powerful than others. I'd like to suggest that all swings be equally powerful in terms of damage (so people in MP don't simply use one move or combo over and over ad nauseum), but rather that the difference be in terms of ability to breach defenses or maintain defenses. To my mind, this will make the fighting more strategic and less based around killer moves. People have discussed the blocking and collision issues already, so I don't think they need to be addressed really. Oh, and any chance we could see more dismemberment this time around?

I could probably go into a LOT greater detail on things that I think would improve sabre combat, but I'd prefer to wait and see how you guys respond (and then probably either PM or e-mail someone at Raven) before tossing out yet ANOTHER suggestion.

2.) What can we expect from the guns this time around? It seems that sabres will be the primary focus of the game, which is great, but I'm sure plenty of folks want their guns fix too. Again, for my part, while the guns and their functions in JK2 were basically good, there were a lot of people who felt that they didn't quite capture the feel of the Star Wars films. To me, they felt a little Quake/UT. Personally, I've had a hard time explaining why this is. Some of it may be the look of the guns, some of it may be the exact effects they produced, some of it may be simply the look of the effects. I'm just curious if you guys have nailed down the weapons for the upcoming game, if that's still in discussion, and what your thoughts on the whole "capturing the feel of the movies" issue are in regards to this particular aspect of the game.

3.) Game modes. Any chance we can get a list of confirmed game modes? Will it be all the previous ones plus a new mode (or modes)? I, for one, would like to see more emphasis on the team game aspect, IE: CTF modes. It seemed in JK2 that CTF kind of got short shrift as far as the maps went (though this was true of JK1 as well -- something that bugged me then too). To me, DM's fun and all, but it gets kind of pointless after a while. That's why the SAGA stuff always appealed to me (in theory, anyway -- I never saw it in practice). Games like RTCW, BF1942, UT's assault mode, etc., have always been the most fun to me. Especially as they relate (or could relate, rather) to the Star Wars environment, where you're dealing with conflict on a grand scale, having objectives to complete as a team could be very rewarding and fun. (I also wouldn't mind seeing classes implemented -- I like the variation and teamwork that this fosters, but hey, that's just me.)

4.) Force powers. Again, any chance of a confirmed/planned list here? And will they be implemented the same way or what? One thing that ended up kind of killing a fun MP experience was when people would end up using the same old force combo over and over. It almost seemed that force powers became weapons in and of themselves. While for certain powers (lightning, grip) that makes sense, I think that force powers should be more of a supplement to the force wielder's abilities than weapons on their own. To my mind, the lightsabre is the Jedi's (and Sith/Dark Jedi's) weapon. The force merely augments the ability to fight but doesn't take over the job. Towards that end I'd like to advocate for more passive force powers, or at least powers that have less of an overall affect on the external world. Pulling things, pushing them, tossing them around, jumping high, running fast, increased senses or borderline precognition, those are all great, as are the old standbys of grip, lightning, and absorb (the great counter to the offensive powers of the dark side). But it seemed that with JK2's MP combat, people could often rely on these alone, whereas in the films, it always came down to who could use the sabre the best, or who could use the force to enhance the sabre abilities the best (at least for jedi v. sith combat). Sure, against your garden variety cannon fodder (storm troopers, droids, etc.) you could rely on the force, but when it comes down to it, the battle's gotta be decided by skill with the lightsabre.

5.) This is likely a legal issue, but will we be receiving a test/beta/pre-release demo of SP and MP? You've got legions of free QA people just waiting to help test the game out on a whole variety of differently configured rigs.

Plus, by releasing the demo prior to the game's release, all the fan complaints could be addressed before people became too wedded to a particular style of play (thus, no community schism like we saw with the 1.02/1.03/1.04 problems). Plus, you whet the public's appetite for MORE and make 'em wanna race out and buy the game.

I'm probably preaching to the choir here, though, and the real people I should be talking to are the LucasArts folks...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to deal with us rabid fans.

We can be a fickle, noisy, and generally unappreciative lot, but I'm still hoping you guys can pull off a game that satisfies the WHOLE community (maybe even some of the RPGers!).

Emon · 03-31-2003, 10:43 PM

Jolts, Q3Map2 can do radiosity for lighting, as well as bump-mapping, phong shading, cel shading, the list goes on...

Mike, if possible, legally, I would highly suggest you guys use Q3Map2 for compiling maps. It has full support for JO now, even lightstyles. So unless you guys are adding anything that would require special compiler features or changes in BSP format, I suggest you use it. Speedier compiles, faster running maps, better lighting and visuals overall... Hell, it's open source, you could make any changes you'd want to it!