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Old 07-07-2003, 07:34 PM   #1
razorace
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Open Jedi Project

This thread is for discussion for the possibility of a open source uber-mod for JKA. The idea is to have as many people as possible combine their efforts into maximizing the feature list for JKA. Most of the current JK2 mods are simply clones of each other except for a couple feature differences.

I'm thinking a CVS code sharing system set up on a open source development site (like sourceforge) would be the way to go.

Obviously this dependant on the state of JKA, but we can at least start thinking about it now.

Personally, I'd be willing to submit various features to the project. Right now, I'm intreged by the concept of ghoul2 based bolt on cloaks that flow like real cloaks.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR SUBMITTING FEATURES IDEAS WITHOUT ANY INTEREST IN ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK YOURSELF. DEVELOPERS ONLY PLEASE!!


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Old 07-10-2003, 02:57 PM   #2
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I'm interested in helping. I mainly want to work on recreating the singleplayer aspects with the multiplayer engine. However, it's hard to tell at this time if it's possible, or how much is needed. If the MP and SP engines are integrated like Elite Force II, then a lot of work will be done for us. However, I'd still want to code additional entities to make SP easier and more productive.

Also, I'm working on several editing tools for JO/JA. I think having an applications subdivision to the project would be great. Things like my model converter, shader editor or Wudan's GlaNeo could easily be opensourced, easily accessable, etc.
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Old 07-10-2003, 10:41 PM   #3
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That would be great. You are correct, it does depend on the final JKA product. We'd have to coordinate our planning to make sure any additional features don't break or replace the existing ones. I'd say that's a primary issue to the project. If people want to majorly modify primary gameplay, we could make that stuff a cvar or a seperate subproject.


Yeah, a tools subset would be great.


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Old 07-11-2003, 12:35 AM   #4
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I was thinking the same thing. I think minor balance issues could be addressed, but major gameplay modifications should be avoided. I think the idea should be a general enhancement for both developers and users.
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Old 07-11-2003, 04:55 AM   #5
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Yeah, I imagine we could set up a committee of JKA developers to determine what would allowed into the project, focus and quality wise. We don't want people to create clones of the project just becuase ___ feature isn't included or because ___ SuXz.

With a open source CVS system, people could independantly add features and then the committee could add them to the master copy if the features proved to be worthy.


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Old 07-13-2003, 04:50 AM   #6
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What about various other enhancements like new models or effects? Similar to a high definition pack? General enhancements not specific, ones that no one would dislike. For example, I made a new saber core texture a while back that was pretty much perfect, got rid of the buldge at the bottom and fixed the sharp point at the top. No one has ever said they didn't like it.
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Old 07-13-2003, 09:04 AM   #7
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I'll allow it.

Seriously, that sort of thing would be great in my opinion. But, any effect/model enhancements would have to be top drawer quality stuff as to make the additional download size worth it.

For example, I know Scarlet's improved saber/bolt efx work looks great. I've only seen screenshots of it, but the work was based directly on screenshots that I pulled from Episode II after some frame-by-frame research on the effects. The WIP screenshots were dead on with what's in Episode 2.


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Old 07-13-2003, 07:28 PM   #8
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So should we start now or wait for JA? I can think of some miscellaneous stuff that could be coded in JO, naimly entities, that could be ported to JA easily.
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Old 07-14-2003, 12:42 AM   #9
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I say wait til JKA. We don't want to waste time working on stuff that might end up being unnessicary in JKA. Plus, I want to start fresh with JKA.


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Old 07-14-2003, 03:22 PM   #10
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Ok.
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Old 07-18-2003, 06:54 PM   #11
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Is anyone else interested in this or will Emon and I have to forge the path first?


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Old 07-19-2003, 07:15 AM   #12
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I suspect others will join later. I just linked a coder for JK who wants to move to JA to this, in a thread at Massassi. My good friends like Gonk and Sine_Nomen are both interested in it, but don't code.


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Old 07-19-2003, 09:13 AM   #13
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Remember the JediMod issue

Looking back at the previous discoveries, most of them should've never been released to the public. Perhaps to a closed modder community, but not to the general users. It only broke down the community, and now, most of the discoveries are credited to the first people that used them in their "mods".

If you do that mod, consider the possibility of making the actual source available to trusted people only, in the long run, it will do better than if you opensource it.

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Old 07-19-2003, 11:44 AM   #14
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I agree with ASk on this. I won't have time to create a mod by myself, but I'm for an inside coder's collaboration work.

I'm not really in the mood for a JediMod flame war.


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Old 07-19-2003, 07:13 PM   #15
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The problem with a "inside coder's collaboration work" is that it turns everything into a bickering fest about how much the ___ feature is "worth" compared to ___. Everything ends up as a battle of egos and nothing really got done. Plus, every awesome modder starts out as a n00b, restricting information to newcomers would hurt the community.

With OJP, we'd start from the get go with a solid license agreement to insure that people won't simply copycat our work. As for credit, since all the features would be released in OJP first and still credited in any "breakoff" projects, all the fame for your work would be secure.


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Old 07-19-2003, 08:08 PM   #16
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Razorace is right.


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Old 07-20-2003, 06:14 AM   #17
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Thank you.

Another point to consider. Most of the "me too" clones tend to have one major feature addition and then some minor gameplay alterations. Eliminate the need to make "me too" mods to add major feature additions and the number of "me too" mods should go down.


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Old 07-20-2003, 07:21 AM   #18
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Also, things like JediMod were composed of specific gameplay alterations, this is very general. If you tried to clone what I have in mind for the OJP, most people would ignore it and just go with the real thing that they know is good.


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Old 07-20-2003, 12:21 PM   #19
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Heh. Very general.

razor, I think that history will show that if someone is the first to throw the red card at an idea, it's you. You just happen to like this one because you're the thread starter and you feel that you have naturally inherited some kind of 'bad idea' veto power.

People came to accept what JediMod had because it was (A) Open Source, and (B) had features that were generally desirable.

Result? Every mod built on JediMod has the distinction of tasting like JediMod, like wines that come from the same vineyard.

I'm not outwardly against any collaboration, I just don't want to have to take a paternity test on my works later.

Rather than any kind of Open Jedi Project, a more sane solution would be to come up with a list of bugs in the source and a list of fixes for those bugs, so that each coder can apply and improve on the fixes as they please.

Since you've basically just said 'no, we're not going to do anything extra, just bug fixes', then why are you doing this at all?


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Old 07-20-2003, 05:39 PM   #20
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What? Only bug fixes? Who said that?

Wudan, there are thousands of projects in the open source community that don't have any problems. Also, why would people rip off this mod when it's mainly meant to be a base for other developers?


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Old 07-20-2003, 07:02 PM   #21
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Ok, so nobody said 'bug fixes'.

What I'm stipulating is that what *I* think is necessary might not be what *you* think is necessary, nor should it be. It is an indicator of arrogance to point a creative process in a specific direction.

I'll warrant that such a thing has a high possibility of being useful, but it certainly reeks of creative troubles. It certainly seems like you are tempting fate to recreate history.

I'll just say it - JK2 modding is a nightmare, largely because there are so many mods where the talented authors could not work together - for instance, why didn't we see a Masters of the Force / Movie Battles ? Why didn't anyone team up with ForceMod? Why did Promod find it's burial at AotCTC? What ever happened to OmniMod? All of them, so similar, that they set out to solve the same problem, and in large part, they do.

But, did they have adequate server support? If the mods authors had cooperated, would they have adequate server support? Where are the server admins, that we might find out what they think on the subject? I'd frankly like to know why there wasn't more server support for mods ...


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Old 07-20-2003, 07:12 PM   #22
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razor, I think that history will show that if someone is the first to throw the red card at an idea, it's you. You just happen to like this one because you're the thread starter and you feel that you have naturally inherited some kind of 'bad idea' veto power.
Oh, you're just jealous of my 'bad idea' veto power. I've always turned down previous offers as it's always been a "under the table" affair with no clear rules/focus.

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I'm not outwardly against any collaboration, I just don't want to have to take a paternity test on my works later.
Well, if you don't want to share your work to help the community, you don't have to contribute.

Quote:
Rather than any kind of Open Jedi Project, a more sane solution would be to come up with a list of bugs in the source and a list of fixes for those bugs, so that each coder can apply and improve on the fixes as they please.
Been there, done that. The idea of OJP is to go beyond that and get modder share basic features to encourage cooperation.


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Old 07-21-2003, 02:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
What I'm stipulating is that what *I* think is necessary might not be what *you* think is necessary, nor should it be. It is an indicator of arrogance to point a creative process in a specific direction.
Uh, what are you talking about?

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I'll warrant that such a thing has a high possibility of being useful, but it certainly reeks of creative troubles. It certainly seems like you are tempting fate to recreate history.
What??

Quote:
I'll just say it - JK2 modding is a nightmare, largely because there are so many mods where the talented authors could not work together - for instance, why didn't we see a Masters of the Force / Movie Battles ? Why didn't anyone team up with ForceMod? Why did Promod find it's burial at AotCTC? What ever happened to OmniMod? All of them, so similar, that they set out to solve the same problem, and in large part, they do.
I fail to see how this is relevant. We aren't trying to unite the modding community or anything. I think the idea razorace has, or at least that I have, is a mod which can be used as a general base for other developers, and possibly do minor gameplay fixes and general enhancements. On the developer note, think of it as an open source C++ library of tools, perhaps like the STL. I myself would aim mostly at recreating things from SP for the MP engine so better SP games could be made, or coding new entities that would let you do a lot more a lot easier, say an elevator entity that supports multiple switches, floors, and is highly customizable.

Quote:
But, did they have adequate server support? If the mods authors had cooperated, would they have adequate server support? Where are the server admins, that we might find out what they think on the subject? I'd frankly like to know why there wasn't more server support for mods ...
You, sir, have more screws loose than the Millenium Falcon! Almost every JO server has a mod on it today.


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Old 07-21-2003, 02:45 AM   #24
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I'll add that MotF and MovieBattles never did anything together primarily due to us both being stubborn bastards. I refused to eliminate all the other gamemodes for the sake of Last Man Standing and he wouldn't accept that. But that's ok. OJP has nothing to do with major gameplay altering mods like MotF or MovieBattles anyway.


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Old 07-21-2003, 11:39 AM   #25
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Basically, what I'm saying is, good luck with your efforts. There's no point in me trying to dissuade you from your course, so good luck, and have fun with it.


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Old 07-21-2003, 07:43 PM   #26
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wudan, if you what you say becomes a problem, we'll probably reduce it strictly to a mod for other developers.


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Old 07-22-2003, 01:37 AM   #27
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Personally, I'd prefer a SOL (Smacktard Open License). Meaning that while the code is open to the public, we still reserve the right to restrict usage if certain individuals start pulling crap.

But I don't think that sort of thing will be nessicary too often. With a easy and "community-open" ability to add features directly to OJP, why make a 50 zillion clones to make additions like in the case of JediMod? Sure, there will probably always be knockoff mods that wish to do major gameplay changes (like MovieBattles), but that's the whole point of the project concept. Restricting non-mod specific changes (like ghoul2 hit detection) only forces players to choose mods based on raw feature lists instead of the actual gameplay/style of the mod. Heck, imagine how Saga could have taken off if there had been a universially accepted, open source codebase.


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Old 07-22-2003, 10:59 AM   #28
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But it didn't, and last time I checked, either that map creator, or Artifex (or was it Anakin) are credited for it...in the eyes of the community of course.

But that's what matters, I do not think that if a group of ~5-10 people know who had done which part, and a group of 5000 believes that 1 person done it all, the smaller group will ever have chance to win.

Hell, I challenge you to find 1 person that just plays JK2, that knows who Dest is. The only name they know now is BOFH.

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Old 07-22-2003, 11:33 AM   #29
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I'd prefer a collaboration between a group of server admins and coders, come to think of it. Server admins could tell us what is working and what isn't, and what is being abused, so the mod collaboration can be pro-active in fixing and solving problems. Basically, for a time, an open beta on a closed number of servers.

Although I'd prefer closed source, I'd want the project to live on rather than hand it off to a team who wouldn't use it, so if you do want to leave a legacy, Open Source is the way to go.


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Old 07-22-2003, 11:41 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
I just linked a coder for JK who wants to move to JA to this, in a thread at Massassi.
Yea, that'd be me.

Lets see here............ wait, it all makes no sense.

This would basically be an 'official community approved' JA mod for others to build off of?


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Old 07-22-2003, 03:03 PM   #31
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Nope, nothing officially official, and the word "community" in this sense is loose. But it's a good idea that a lot of folks will want to get behind, and some folks will want to abuse.


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Old 07-22-2003, 09:42 PM   #32
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Well, it would be as "official" as the community can make it. Unfortunately, Raven can't do so much as a press release without direct approval from LEC's legal department.

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But it didn't, and last time I checked, either that map creator, or Artifex (or was it Anakin) are credited for it...in the eyes of the community of course.
Maybe it's because that mapmaker was the only person that actually did anything with it. No offence, but the code fix mod for Saga was a rush job. It came out without any fanfare or input from other people helping on the "Saga Project".

Sides, what do you want? A parade? A trophy wife? To a Jedi these matter not. Well, maybe the hot babe wife.....


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Old 07-23-2003, 03:02 AM   #33
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Yeah, I don't really care about fame or anything. I have enough of it as it is, and it sickens me. People find me in #Massassi, e-mail me or PM me with the dumbest questions, ask me to fix their level, to make a mod for them. Ugh. I don't want more of this. I'm sure Hell Raiser can sympathize from JK. On his forums, all sorts of annoying people worship him. It makes me sick, I don't want to know what it does to him.

Anyways, Hell Raiser, the idea here is an open source mod for other developers to work off of. Personally, I'd like to code a lot of singleplayer things into multiplayer, to either be used strictly for singleplayer or for co-op. My friends who also are working on large SP projects are disappointed with the limitations we have come across. I'm the only coder among these guys, and I feel the need to do something like this, for myself and for my friends' projects which I'd really like to see shine.

Some basic things would be bugfixes, improved GHOUL2 collision as wudan mentioned, or new entities to make mapping easier. I know you aren't that familiar with Q3 yet (at least I don't think), so an entity is basically like a template for a thing in JK, except made from a bunch of C code.


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Old 07-23-2003, 11:12 AM   #34
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Heh, whens the last time you've been to the TDiR forums Emon? They're plagued with topics on bugs and crashes and whining people who think they know how to fix things. The praise era has been gone for a while...

Anyway, I'm semi familiar with Q3 coding. *hugs Code3Arena* I did alot of reading before JO came out and have a rough understanding of how things work with the Q3 series of games. Hell, I could probably figure most of it out on my own anyway.

Well, as things in RL are up in the air for me, you'll have to ask me again later when JA is out and the SDK available for download. As much as I'd like to start another project (or fantasize really) to kill time with, I've no time to kill right now, nor in the foreseeable future.


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Old 07-23-2003, 03:17 PM   #35
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On a side note, I think people remember BOFH and not Dest because Dest stopped making JediMod after 1.2, and BOFH was still making more stuff after that. Anyone who came late into the game will only know BOFH because his new big fat versions overshadow the old JediMod. It's like how people don't know what MOSAIC is, even though IE is based off it.


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Old 07-23-2003, 05:09 PM   #36
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exactly, emon.


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Old 08-08-2003, 04:40 AM   #37
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I worked on the Tenebrae and Tenebrae 2 Quake engine modification projects. They are both open source andwe have no problems about clones. Its not that we aren't popular either. We've had time on planetquake and other websites. We add stencil buffered shadows, reflections, Quake3 MD3 model format, Quake3 BSP format, enhanced particle effects with scripting, a Quake 3 like shader system, and more. We are open source as required by the Quake engine GPL liscense and we've never had problems with clones.
I'm also the creator of the FanMod for JK2 at www.modsrus.com . It was the first ever source code modification for JK2. I can tell you that almost anyone from the JK2 community today has never heard of me yet FanMod had over 10,000 downloads from June 09 to June16, 2002. So I can also agree with the credit and names getting lost in time point of view, but I don't think that really matters as I left the JK2 community for a long time and stopped supporting the mod simply because I had moved on to other projects.
Overall, I think this project is a good idea and I would be willing to contribute. We could make it like an advanced community SDK or source code base that all other mods that heavily alter gameplay could base it off just so all mods have the core fetaures that every mod truly needs. I think we could even add gameplay affecting features and have them cvar controllable and have those cvars off by default. As you can tell by FanMod I love cvars and server configurability.


Eradicator:
Programmer - JK2: The Fan's Version
Programmer - Tenebrae
INI Editor - CnC Generals: Second Wave
Programmer - Enhanced Half-Life
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Old 08-08-2003, 05:52 AM   #38
Emon
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<3 you ^^


Clarionet, n. An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarionet -- two clarionets.
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Old 08-08-2003, 05:52 AM   #39
Emon
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And by the way, I heard of your FanMod.


Clarionet, n. An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarionet -- two clarionets.
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Old 08-11-2003, 06:30 AM   #40
schnarf
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Uh, I'm a coder, and Emon suggested I join, I'm open to joining and I have experience in the open-source community. My only constraint is the amount of time I'm able to dedicate to this project: Once school starts on September 4, I will be very busy and thus will not always be able to put in as much time as I'd like to.

P.S. LordEradicator, I have the prestigious claim to having released the first mod (though non-code) for JO. Yes, behold übersaber in all of its glory. I don't really remember what it was, but I think I just changed the JPG for the lightsaber blade to look better. Yes, what better credentials could one need than this?

Edit: http://www.massassi.net/levels/files/1946.shtml
I made the saber better and I made the respawn bubble blue. Now if that doesn't qualify me, I don't know what does.
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