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Old 10-02-2003, 01:49 AM   #1
XERXES
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Serious Discussion Time, put yer thinkin caps on

Well well...heres an interesting topic I would like to hear about. You are all entitled to your own opinions so dont go bashing eachothers skulls over it.

Is it natural to clone living organisims?

(I dont want to hear if its right or wrong...only if its natural or not and why you think so.)


I'll tell you guys my opinion later, with a detailed explanation.


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Old 10-02-2003, 02:01 AM   #2
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Erm....Senate Chambers anyone ??

Meh...to tired to post my opinion now, will do later.
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Old 10-02-2003, 02:03 AM   #3
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more variety of people here.


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Old 10-02-2003, 02:31 AM   #4
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i don't see why not. We were given the ability to do it thus it's natural.


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Old 10-02-2003, 03:02 AM   #5
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Cloning organs is one thing. Cloning an organim is just plain wrong. Anyone ever see The 6th Day? Creepy...
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Old 10-02-2003, 03:22 AM   #6
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Is it natural? How could it be? just because we know HOW to, doesnt make it natural.




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Old 10-02-2003, 03:29 AM   #7
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you know how to walk...is that natural?


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Old 10-02-2003, 03:54 AM   #8
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before you post here, or read any opinions, or disagree\agree
ask yourself this, do you own, or have you ever owned any
breed of dog or cat? (using dog) as a base line, look at the Westminister dog show, or the Purina challenge; how many of these dogs, all of them really, but how many of these dogs look anything like the architypal wolf. same application goes towards fancy cat breeds, fish, birds.
a pit bull is or was a dog especially bred to fight in pits.
race horses are bred, i have seen on TV a mule and a horse bred.
many, many animals are genetically enhanced. the Beefalo for example; a cow and a buffalo bred to make a new species.

now if you live in the united states, and other countries, think of franken foods. they have organically\genetically grown tomatoes which have been cross brundle flied with meat. a meat\tomato is tougher, and has a longer self life.

now also if you live in the states then you know, or if not I am telling you that the human geonome is being mapped out, and because capitalism is king, corporations are actually placing pattens on genes. (thinking even in the hypothetical; god made man in his own image, and then man imposses a copyright infringement on his original work)

now add fertility drugs, invitro fertilization etc. designing drugs, designing viruses, designing anything. the question which is being possed, is is it right, or moral, or ethical to clone?

personally, and this may shock some, I am a Eugenesis.
animals have built in evolutionary drives, they breed intentionally to strength their individual breed. all animals do this.
now 'WE' are human animals, and as animals, like all other mamals\animals out there, we also have built into us the evolutionary drive. HOWEVER we try very hard
to ignore our basic instincts.
in nature animals born with defects are left to die so as not to polute the gene pool. albino animals are hunted and shunned, pink monkeys are killed. this is not done with malice, it is done for neccessity, it is done for evolution.

now people (human animals) as I said have chosen to intentionally ignore and even at great lengths, breed counter eugenically to the species. and as such raises the beast, science and the entire question of playing god. researchers now are out to map each and every gene in our bodies, understand what makes us cosmically tick. and they or we rather (some of us) want to wipe out disease and even clone replacement parts, or in the case of cloning; ourselves. and in my opinion:
G.O.D Genetic Order Department

since we refuse to behave naturally as natural animals within the circle of life, since we use drugs, enhance life, and extend it, try to wipe out the common cold, any and every Franken-Mengala experiment which occurs on the planet, by the hand of man
is just our own personal brand of evolution.

if people want to clone themselves, if scientist are willing to do it, then so be it. if all this research and science produces stem cells, organs which don't reject patients, and ways to ensure that babies are born sans deformities, or serious illness' I am for it 100%




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Old 10-02-2003, 03:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by XERXES
more variety of people here.
Ohh! I'll post stuff about JA, SWG, KOTOR, and techincal support because there's a bigger variety of people here!

Anyway, it wouldnt be natural for cloning. Naturally is through sex. With the sperm fertilizing the fetus. However, not to say it's wrong. Just that it'd be artificial(you have to use things other than what you were born with to clone someone).



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Old 10-02-2003, 03:55 AM   #10
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As long as they don't clone someone like Pee Wee Herman, I don't really care. Actually, I do care. It just seems a tad creepy that something could be cloned.
Just a tad, though...


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Old 10-02-2003, 04:35 AM   #11
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I don't think it is naturaly, religiously, or politicaly wrong, just creepy




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Old 10-02-2003, 04:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Eggplant
animals have built in evolutionary drives, like all other mamals\animals out there, we also have built into us the evolutionary drive.
biggest load of bullcrap I have ever heard (in my humble opinion) organisims evolve by interaction with the world around them...there is no "built in" drive that made snakes loose their legs one day for example.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Eggplant

since we refuse to behave naturally as natural animals within the circle of life
circle of life? This isnt Lion King here buddy(kidding, I had to say it though..heh) It isnt that we "refuse" to behave naturally, it is our natural behavior to behave differently from other animals. Some scientists say how similar our DNA is to that of a chimpanzee...and that we have something of like a 4% difference between a chimp. But wow...look at how much that 4% accounted for...all the things weve done that chimps havent.

Also all those genetic modification processes...its natural. Because it can be done. Now my opinions on what is natural and what is not may greatly differ from somebody elses...

As far as my views on if cloning is natural...it certianly is because well...we can do it! Anything we can do is natural...down to the basics (eat, sleep, reproduce). Something un-natural for us right now would be...hmm...breathing fire. That is un natural. (and I dont mean sticking a flaming torch into your mouth either...dont try that btw)

I have also heard that scientists are going to clone Jesus by using blood samples from the Shroud of Turin. Now...*laughs* come on...why do it. Even if it were possible we would end up with a Jewish man who will still say the same thing he did 2000 years ago...and tell us that we havent listened to a damn thing he said for the past 2000 years. Maybe God and the second coming of Jesus was intended by cloning...since God knew we would eventually learn how. Well thats a little bit far, but I thought it was interesting we discussed it in one of my classes.

Hmm...another question...

What is Nature?

well? what do you think?



disclaimer: you dont have to believe what I do, or even agree or read it for that matter. I love these kinds of discussions/debates...they are very interesting and you learn lots from them. I dont mean to offend anybody.


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Old 10-02-2003, 06:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by XERXES
I have also heard that scientists are going to clone Jesus
We can clone the man, but we will never clone the mind.

Even if we cloned people, it'd just be like a twin, they'd have to grow up on thier own, learn lifes basics and so on... none of this *POOF* a 35 year clone.




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Old 10-02-2003, 06:38 AM   #14
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You'll get better responses in the senate forums.

*moving thread*
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Old 10-02-2003, 12:50 PM   #15
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question: what is nature?
answer: anything occurs naturally.
(there you go Xerxes run riot on my answer again )
..and I did not mean snakes have a must lose their leggs thingy built in, that's not how it happened.
no I read the Freak Brothers Wonder Wart Hog comic where they went into the past and a snake came by on four legs, and the warthog said; "what are you?" and the snake replied, "oh, just a snake" and the warthog grabbed the snake and said, "no a snake is like this", and peeled its leggs away and the snake slithered away saying, "bastard."

...and hey the circle of life, it's so PC so politically correct, such a wonderful buzz word. and I went to see the stage production of the Lion King, it was the best play I ever saw.

as for all this controversial and philosophical and scientific stuff, I must admit, I can not be certain for I am just a humble eggplant. all I know is that I have one hand in my pocket while the one is flashing a peace sign; because what if god was one of us?




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Old 10-02-2003, 02:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZDawg
We can clone the man, but we will never clone the mind.
He is Jeses, if I remember correctly he is only... 1/3rd human a third God and a third the Holy Ghost. He would have his mind...at least I think so I mean he is Jeses for crying out loud.


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Old 10-02-2003, 03:06 PM   #17
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My personal opinion is that cloning humans won't work.
As was said before, we can clone the body, but not the mind. I seriously doubt that a clone would be able to function.


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Old 10-03-2003, 01:02 AM   #18
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In some respects yes and in some no.

I think it should be right to clone living organism form the fulfilment of science. If a species is beciming endangered or extinct. Then of course we should clone the DNA. If we didnt we might lose an important part of our eco-system. So in some regards its natural, considering, we have the ability to do it in our natural nature.

The point that i dont like about this idea. Is that people are trying to clone for personal pleasure. Frankly, i think its sick. Only animals that are basically gone should have the right to have their species cloned. I dont think its nescessary for people to clone themselves. it just causes media bundle-ups, are bizzare rumors.

Thats just my 2 cents

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Old 10-03-2003, 03:22 AM   #19
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First, I'd like to point out a little more clearly what Eggplant was saying.... cloning is not natural in the sense that you refer because it doesn't happen in nature in that way. Mitosis isn't used for reproduction with humans, we rely on meiosis.

Cloning is natural with other forms of life, particularly simple animals (some worms, etc.) and plants (the elm tree, grasses, etc.).

I think you were referring to "natural" in its colloquial form, however, as in "is cloning acceptable?"

Instance, I would point out that acceptability if often influanced by fear and ignorance, and is certainly so in the case of cloning.

Quote:
Originally posted by Father Torque
... people are trying to clone for personal pleasure. Frankly, i think its sick.
What kind of "personal pleasure" do you refer to? If you mean humans for concubines, then I agree... (that's not happening though). If you mean horses for racing, then I would have to disagree. Why would this be any different than traditional breeding methods?

Quote:
Originally posted by Father Torque
Only animals that are basically gone should have the right to have their species cloned.
Why?

Quote:
Originally posted by Father Torque
I dont think its nescessary for people to clone themselves. it just causes media bundle-ups, are bizzare rumors.
Suppose someone is incapable of having children in any other way?

But the majority of cloning research isn't so concerned with reproductive cloning as with therapeutic cloning. This is a whole different concept. Suppose you knew your child had a defective heart that would give problems at adolescent age? If the technology existed to allow a heart to be cloned and grown in medium that mimics the human body, wouldn't you want that advantage?

The "ethics" that surround cloning research are polluted with dark-age thinking. Too much of the "religious-right" is getting bent out of shape and making attempts to legislate all research to the point that none will occur. There has yet to be a convincing argument that I've seen against even reproductive cloning.

The real danger is that if it is legislated to the point that there is no government support or oversight, private organizations will find some economic value and pursue it. Without oversight. That will be a danger. The invitro fertilization technique is a good example of this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Xerxes I have also heard that scientists are going to clone Jesus by using blood samples from the Shroud of Turin.
You heard wrong. This would be exceedingly difficult, primarily because the Shroud of Turin was a hoax and the "blood" was Vermilion paint. Red ochra was also used. The so-called shroud is a 14th century artifact.

Not to mention that cloning of primates is hampered by some technical problems that have yet to be overcome. Though researchers are very close to solving them.


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Old 10-03-2003, 03:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker

I think you were referring to "natural" in its colloquial form, however, as in "is cloning acceptable?"

no I most certianly was not. it just happens to be that thats what most people answered the question as... *sigh*



yeah I didnt buy the shroud of turin part (hense the dry laughter) but I thought it was an interesting topic...


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Old 10-03-2003, 06:27 AM   #21
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I think I'm here a little late. I can't possibly respond to all the before mentioned ideas.. So I will state my opinion for posterity.

Cloning isn't natural, because it's artificially produced by man. Cloning isn't wrong either, because if it is? Then we better start doing away with the natural types of clones "twins." They're really isn't much difference between a set twins and a set of clones. Except clones are not conceived together. Regardless they're nothing more than artificially produced twins.

I read some things people typed like "cloning is creepy," because they saw movies like "The Sixth Day." For one that is Sci-Fi's little twist on cloning. Cloning in reality is far less exciting and horrifying. This goes with what I said before. A clone is created. Then it's inserted into a seregant mother and goes through life like anything else. It's born, it lives, and it dies. It's not a total copy. It will never have your thoughts or feelings. It's a individual as much as anyone's twin brother or sister.

As far as Eugenics go. It might actually be necessary. I work in a mental hospital. I see lots of signs that Mental illness and retardation are passed down from generation to generation. Nothing is done to stop it. If you are Mentally retarded and have to be cared for the rest of your life "which might only be tell your 30." Nobody can stop you from having kids. Kids that most likely will also be MR and be dependant on others the rest of their life.

It's sad you have to have a license to own a car, to have a gun, but nobody has to be certified to be a parent. Any mentally ill, MR, or convicted murder rapist can have a kid. Then the kid is born to continue the cycle all over again.

The human genome has gone stagnate. It's not filtered of defects and we can't evolve. Next time any of us look at our family dog we should all stop to think that it has better breeding then we do.


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Old 10-03-2003, 12:21 PM   #22
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i think so as long as they don't take advantage of the priivlege they have




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Old 10-03-2003, 12:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cosmos Jack
The human genome has gone stagnate. It's not filtered of defects and we can't evolve. Next time any of us look at our family dog we should all stop to think that it has better breeding then we do.
This is quite true. Most of the afflictions that man is concerned with today affects people well past the human reproductive period. Things like Huntington's Disease, Alzheimer's, Cancers, even AIDS.

Many, many deleterious genes have been eliminated over the course of evolution by natural selection. Only natural selection is unable to filter out the bad stuff.

We could, however, extend the average human life-span by making it illegal to reproduce until age 30 - 35. After about 50 years or so of this, we should see an increase in the average age of people. Not a very feasible method, though.

Natural selection as it applies to humans is broken... genetic manipulation might be necessary for the survival and continued advancement of the species.


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Old 10-03-2003, 05:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker
We could, however, extend the average human life-span by making it illegal to reproduce until age 30 - 35. After about 50 years or so of this, we should see an increase in the average age of people. Not a very feasible method, though.
I had more on the lines of organized genetic testing for couples that would qualify to have children. That way the embryo could be fix before it matured with a sort of gene therapy. Maybe conceived in a test tube from the beginning and the defects removed.

By "couples that would qualify to have children" I mean they have been together a stander length of time. They have passed IQ tests "Nothing special required just average intelligence." and several counseling sessions. They have a good family background not required, but it helps.

I hope none of this makes me sound too "NAZISH." I do believe if anything people should have to be certified and have licence to have kids. Some of the kids at the mental hospital I work at have a lot of problems. Then their family comes to visit and you see where they got the problems from. It's a shame.

We had one kid that burned their house down with there sister in it on purpose. The strange thing is their mother did the exact same thing when she was a child and killed her brother. I don't think the mother should have been allowed to have children.


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Old 10-03-2003, 06:30 PM   #25
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hey Cosmos, going along with you saying that cloning isnt natural...I am interested to see how you would define nature.

What is Nature?


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Old 10-03-2003, 08:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by XERXES
hey Cosmos, going along with you saying that cloning isnt natural...I am interested to see how you would define nature.

What is Nature?
Well hmmm nature. Humans have done a very good job off taking ourselves out of the rest of the natural world. We don't live like our ancestors. We don't have any predators except ourselves and disease. When you walk down a street in a big city at night. What are you worried more about?
Getting taken down by a Tiger or getting mugged?

I understand what your saying I think. "what is nature?" I suppose this might suit the idea best. Is cloning natural in the natural world? NO... Is cloning natural for humanity to do? YES

I'm sure lots of us have heard the term "Human Nature." I think you have to look at the rest of all life and humanity on two separate pallets. Lots of life forms change and shape the world around them to best suit their needs. None do it in such extravagant and complicated ways as humans. None see the world around them as we do.

It's not instinct that tells you that you might get mugged walking down that street. It's the knowledge of the possibilities. We have sh!t for instincts and we have to learn almost everything we know. That's what separates us from other living things. That's human nature in my opinion.

Nobody is born knowing how to build a sky scraper or put a suit of cloths together. Nobody is born knowing how to drive a car or shoot a gun. In comparison a simple form of life like a ant. Already knows how to work in the colony, how to hunt for food, and even how to walk from day one.

Brain size complicates things. I think Scotty from Star Trek said it best. "The more you pipe up the pluming. The easer it is to stop up the drain."


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Old 10-10-2003, 01:36 AM   #27
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Have I killed another thread?


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Old 10-10-2003, 05:02 AM   #28
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and that we have something of like a 4% difference between a chimp
Actually we're 98-99% alike chimpsjudging by DNA. Imagine Einstein differs from you in 1 millionth of a percent. So we are all almost Einsteins. Encouraging isn't it.
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Old 10-10-2003, 05:12 AM   #29
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We have sh!t for instincts and we have to learn almost everything we know. That's what separates us from other living things. That's human nature in my opinion.
Not so far. Does the dog have an instict of a scent of its master? No, it learns it. The same thing is from mammals to dinosaurs, they learned things.
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Old 10-10-2003, 05:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Actually we're 98-99% alike chimpsjudging by DNA. Imagine Einstein differs from you in 1 millionth of a percent. So we are all almost Einsteins. Encouraging isn't it.
not really since einstein was a fraud and a complete imbecile, though he was intelligent enought to steal tesla's work. :\


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Old 10-10-2003, 05:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Not so far. Does the dog have an instict of a scent of its master? No, it learns it. The same thing is from mammals to dinosaurs, they learned things.
I never said animals didn't learn.. How much of their actions is controled by what they learn in comparison to us?


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