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Old 07-13-2004, 03:26 PM   #1
boranchistanger
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The War in Iraq

This thread is to discuss the current war in Iraq. Please state your opinions but also back them up with hard-core facts. Happy debating.

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Old 07-13-2004, 03:32 PM   #2
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I have been against this war from the beginning. I do not feel any of our reasons for waging war were good enough to justify attacking a sovereign nation. I agree 100% that Saddam Hussein was an evil, evil man. But that was NEVER mentioned as cause for war when we originally went in. The entire justification for going into Iraq was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of Mass destruction and was an immediate threat to the United States, which was and is complete bullocks.

It was only AFTER we'd been in Iraq for a long time and still have no WMD's that we started flouting our invasion as a big liberation effort and our entire purpose was to oust Saddam and bring Democracy to Iraq.

Furthermore, I didn't like the lies perpetuating the myth that this invasion was connected to our war on terror, which is also bull. There is no evidence to support the accusation the Saddam Hussein supported terrorists, and furthermore it is unlikely that Osama Bin Laden even LIKED Hussein. Saddam is not a religious man, and Osama is an Islamic Fundamentalist.



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Old 07-13-2004, 03:36 PM   #3
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Damn ET, how do you do it? When i clicked this thread the post number was still at 0. you always beat me one second! Anyway, i think the Americans biggest mistake was that they were expecting everybody to stand aside the road with flowers to salute their saviours, but instead there are a bunch of terrorrist who keep saying everything was better when saddam was there. Wich it was, cause then there weren't any suicide bombers around. But it also wasn't. anyway, you get the point. I think Bush is a maniac that would bomb his own grandma if he could find some lies to back it up...
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Old 07-13-2004, 04:07 PM   #4
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You ever heard the phrase you give a mouse a cookie and hell want a glass of milk?

That is what the situation is like overthere. Most agree that Saddam should have ben taken out of office, I mean its no lie that he killed millions of people in his own country. But we help the people with that and it just wasnt good enough, they want more.

Should we have been there, no. But we are, so deal with it, and lets come up witht the best possible answer to get out of it.

But what no one is talking about is only the biggest scam in world history. The UN was given 6 BILLION dollars to give aid to the Iraqy people, but not a cent made it to Iraq. The UN is a but of lieing cheating scum bags that no one is talking about.
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Old 07-14-2004, 09:27 PM   #5
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You guys are ignorant if you don't see the real reason we went to war. Going into a country because of WMD's is no reason and as for enforcing UN Resolutions, well, that's also a pretty shakey reason.

The simple reason we went into Iraq, along with 30+ countries, was to establish a democracy in the middle of the Middle East. Terrorism cannot prosper in a true stable democratic nation. That is why we don't have terrorist camps in the US, Britain, Spain, Germany, Japan and so forth. Since the Middle East doesn't have a stable democratic nation then terrorism can take root and prosper.

So, in order to combat terrorism, which is what this war is about, we needed to establish a democracy in the Middle East. But it couldn't be anywhere. It needed to be in a place where the population was diverse and where it could spread rapidly afterwards. Iraq meets both criteria. And that is why Iraq was chosen for this special country.

Think about it. Iraq is surrounded by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and Turkey. All of those countries have very unpopular and oppressive dictators. So, when democracy fully takes root in Iraq, which will take time and unfaltering resolve from the US and the 30+ country coalition, it will spread rapidly. Already the Iranian people are starting to rebel with Iraq as their example and a rebellion has already begun in Syria.

As for the way the Iraq war has been executed I am amazed at how few casualties we have had along with the fact that we have had even limited amounts of security. You would figure that with foreign Christians marching into a country in which the people hate the US and have been having propoganda punched into their heads by their leaders and Al Jazeer that they are crusaders that you woulg have mass revolution. There has been none of that. All we have are a few scattered and relatively small militias with isolated terrorists attacks. And also consider that in an environment where most everyone has an AK-47 and in an environment where you can look out your window and shoot an American that there have only been 800 deaths! While 800 deaths are 800 too many that is still nothing compared to past wars and nothing compared to what was expected.

Now, to address a few points made earlier.

Quote:
The entire justification for going into Iraq was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of Mass destruction and was an immediate threat to the United States, which was and is complete bullocks.
I agree with you that going into a country for the simple reason you suspect that they have WMD's is no reason to go to war. However, you are listening to what the media was blaring out. If you listened to Bush's speaches before the war you will hear much more than just they have WMD's. You will hear their threat to their neighbors, their horrible human right's record along with their refusal to comply with the UN. And lets face it, the reason I gave above which is the true reason the US invasion of Iraq would not fly with the UN. I think that the UN right now is worhtless, as is seem with their inaction for the genocide going on in the Sudan. If I was Bush I would be projecting the real reason we went to war, stated above, and taken my chances with the rest of the world.

Quote:
It was only AFTER we'd been in Iraq for a long time and still have no WMD's that we started flouting our invasion as a big liberation effort and our entire purpose was to oust Saddam and bring Democracy to Iraq.
Agreed in part. There was credible evidence from all over the world which showed that Saddam had WMD's and moved them to Syria where I personally believe they are.

Quote:
Furthermore, I didn't like the lies perpetuating the myth that this invasion was connected to our war on terror, which is also bull. There is no evidence to support the accusation the Saddam Hussein supported terrorists, and furthermore it is unlikely that Osama Bin Laden even LIKED Hussein. Saddam is not a religious man, and Osama is an Islamic Fundamentalist.
Umm, then how do you explain the Al Queda training camp in northern Iraq? How do you explain the close connection between Bin Ladin and Zarquowi? Use common sense here. Saddam hates America. Terrorists hate America. Saddam hates Israel, terrorists hate Israel. I don't care what petty religious disagreements you have you are going to work together to accomplish your common goal. And Saddam has publically supported terrorists groups in Israel and even giving them money to strap bombs to kids and blow themselves and other innocents up.

Quote:
it was, cause then there weren't any suicide bombers
Ya you're right. Under Saddam it was better. I mean, who wouldn't want to be constantly living in an environment of fear in which you could be killed for simply being a Kurd or a Shiite. Man, those torture chamvers were completely nice especially when they were filled up with bones, like they usually were. And those mass graves, gorgeous!

Come'on. How many Iraqis died every year under Saddam? Over 100,000. Not even half that many have died during the entire war. And you are over-propogantisising (New word!) the insurgency. The total insurgency is around 20,000 fanatics, over half of them foreigners.

Quote:
I think Bush is a maniac that would bomb his own grandma if he could find some lies to back it up...
I hate it when people say this. It is so stupid that it's funny. Lets see, warmongering Bush has led us in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. For both the wars congress, made of republicans and democrats, overwhelmingly supported the president along with the majority of the population. Give me a break.

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Old 07-14-2004, 11:18 PM   #6
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Well americans elected him.....(1 state [Florida]{which took about 10,000,000,000 years to get the vote counted right})


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Old 07-15-2004, 11:42 AM   #7
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So now your accusing Bush of not being the rightful president? He won 40 out of 50 states and his opponent couldn't even win his home state. Come'on.

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Old 07-15-2004, 12:27 PM   #8
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Fascism?

Subtle domination?


I suppose that could sum it up.

In no way was the "war" (I say that loosely) started to SAVE the Iraqi people. Thats fluffy topping for the black oily cup cake underneath.
Not to mention all the contracts for re building etc etc.
They needed a target and they found one.
Anyone who tries to defend this latest act of terrorism by the united states by saying that we helped soooooooo many of those poor iraqis is just..I dont know....they have a flacid brain.
Sure Saddam persecuted people and killed them, but for the most part they were the fundementalist forces within....now that he's stopped killing them they are trying to grab a piece of the pie. Most of these damn attacks that are going on are most likely from these groups, not X Iraqi soldiers or militants.
(anyone pay attention to that huge pipe line they built from the mountainous regions to the sea in afghanistan while the iraq war was in full swing?)

Anyways...I fell off the topic boat.
They cant justify this selfish act in a sane and moral manner. You cant. Stand blindly by your country if you want, I dont blame you. The amount of poisonous media being jammed down your throat is truly amazing.
You are a product of subtle fascism.
Freedom is an illusion.
You are free to do what they will let you do.

Good day.

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Old 07-15-2004, 02:06 PM   #9
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i would just like to say that I competly agree with boranchistanger. Everything you said makes complete since. Thank you.
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Old 07-15-2004, 08:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by boranchistanger
Use common sense here. Saddam hates America. Terrorists hate America. Saddam hates Israel, terrorists hate Israel. I don't care what petty religious disagreements you have you are going to work together to accomplish your common goal. And Saddam has publically supported terrorists groups in Israel and even giving them money to strap bombs to kids and blow themselves and other innocents up.
And you apparently don't realize that the religious disagreements aren't PETTY to fundamentalists. Their entire lives are devoted to and submersed in religion. It is logical that Al-Qaieda hated Saddam as much as anyone else did.



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Old 07-15-2004, 08:29 PM   #11
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these islamic fundamentalists are not religious. They USE religion as an excuse for their hideous actions. Do you honestly believe that the scum usama Bin Ladin is a religious man? You go up to every muslim and I can guarantee every one who has read the Koran and actually knows what makes a muslim will tell you that they aren't really muslims.

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Old 07-16-2004, 04:36 AM   #12
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FUNDAMENTALIST is the key word there. Fundamentalists will do some CRAZY things in the name of their religion, and feel that they have the backin of God. Ever heard of the Crusades? Salem Witch Trials? Countless Jihads in Islamic countries? I can go on, but I think you get the picture. The fact is that while YOU may not see them as religious, they are in fact doing what THEY feel is right by THEIR God.

It's easy to just say, well, phhh, they aren't REALLY religious, they're just using it as an excuse. It makes it easier to assume that they'd be willing to work with someone they probably hate for religious reasons.



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Old 07-16-2004, 04:59 AM   #13
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We may have had genuine reasons (or not) for going over there, but at this point we're doing more harm than good. Don't think anyone can disagree with that.

*keeps it short and sweet*
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Old 07-16-2004, 07:47 AM   #14
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There are other areas of the world that needed more help.
Lets take the congo for example. Roving bands of cannibalistic militia men slaughtering whole villages of people.....
OH ya...all good stuff.
There is a far more selfish reason that they went into iraq then a selfless, "help your common man" was not on their mind.
The powers to be that got that war rolling didn'tt give a rats ass about helping people or freeing them from oppression.
Its an added bonus once the war goes on. People support the war if they think that they are helping people and that they were directly threatened and it had to be done.
Very similar to Germany, 1939.


"Of course the people don't want war... That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

-- Hermann Goering, Adolf Hitler's Deputy Chief and Luftwaffe Commander, at the Nuremberg trials, 1946 from "Nuremberg Diary" by G M Gilbert.
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
FUNDAMENTALIST is the key word there. Fundamentalists will do some CRAZY things in the name of their religion, and feel that they have the backin of God. Ever heard of the Crusades? Salem Witch Trials? Countless Jihads in Islamic countries? I can go on, but I think you get the picture. The fact is that while YOU may not see them as religious, they are in fact doing what THEY feel is right by THEIR God.
Alright, let me get this straight, you feel that Usoma Bin Ladin is a religious man? You honestly think that he believes that crashing planes into building which means death for thousands of people is what God wants? Do you honestly think Yasser Arafat is a religious man? He straps bombs to little children, telling them if they blow themselves up in a supermarket they will go to paradise?

Now, still on Arafat. In the 90's, Israel proposed a treaty with the PLO which would of forced Israel to give up ALL conquered land that Israel has done since 1948. What did Arafat say? No. You know why he said no? Because with israel weak he is out of buisiness. It's all politics. And also remember, follow the money.

And even the crusaders worked with those who didn't believe in what they did. The Catholic crusaders worked with the Orthodox Byzantines in order to successfully retake the holey land. The Catholic and Orthodox churches could not stand each other, yet when they both had a common goal they worked together. That is Saddam and Bin Ladin.

Quote:
We may have had genuine reasons (or not) for going over there, but at this point we're doing more harm than good. Don't think anyone can disagree with that.
I disagree big time. You understand that right now the coalition troops ar ethe only security Iraq has right now? The Iraqi force is still being formed, trained and armed. That akes a long time. A pullout by the coalition now means the complete undoing of all work which has been done of the past year along with a bloody civil war which wouls take the lives of at least a million Iraqis.

Coalition troops will be needed until at least the beginning of 2005. Hopefully by the time of the Iraqi elections the Iraqi government will have sufficient police and military force to partially defend themselves. This means that coalition troops can begin being pulled out. I estimate that by 2007 all coalition troops will be out of Iraq and Iraq will be secure and stable along with democratic.

Quote:
Lets take the congo for example. Roving bands of cannibalistic militia men slaughtering whole villages of people.....
OH ya...all good stuff.
Along with most of Africa. But remember, Africa has no US interests in it. African countries pose no threat to American security. We are fighting a war on terrorism, not a war against tyranny and human rights violations. The UN is in charge of places like Africa, not the US. The Middle East is where the greatest terrorist threat to the United States is along with other interests like oil and Israel. Both are essential to the US.

Remember, US foreign policy rightfully revolves around two things in the proper order:

1. US interests
2. Promoting democracy and improving the world

If the first part is missing the US should never go in another country. It is the job of the UN to take care of the second one. The US cannot and will not police the world!

Unfortinately this is looked over by Democrat presidents. Clinton sent our troops into Bosnia, an operation in which there was absolutely no US interests involved. Hundreds of Americans died for nothing except a country which is screwed up to this day.

Quote:
There is a far more selfish reason that they went into iraq then a selfless, "help your common man" was not on their mind.
The powers to be that got that war rolling didn'tt give a rats ass about helping people or freeing them from oppression.
it is the UN's job to "help the common man." The US and other countries should never send their men and women oversees unless what they are doing is in their country's interests.

Iraq is in the interests of the United States because once the operation in iraq is completed, which may take awhile, the War on Terror will begin to turn to our side. A democratic and free Iraq will be a crushing blow to the terrorists like I described in a past post. And oil production will increase with the introduction of some capitalism and that will also benefit the US, along with every other country in the world.

Quote:
Its an added bonus once the war goes on. People support the war if they think that they are helping people and that they were directly threatened and it had to be done.
Did Iraq have to be done? No. Iraq wasn't going to invade the US or anything. Was it a good thing to do? Definately.

And there have been other wars in which we didn't have to go in. Vietnam, World War I, Spanish American War, Mexican War and the War of 1812 to name a few. Yet it was always the right thing to do to go to war. And I am very optimistic about the future because of Iraq.

Quote:
Very similar to Germany, 1939.
this is nothing compared the Germany in 1939. Nothing. It is a slap in the face when you sday that. You guys acvt like Bush is a facist for god's sake.

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Old 07-17-2004, 01:50 AM   #16
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I support the war. I dont like to call it the war in Iraq, becasue its not. its the war on terror. we've been sittin gidly by long enough. The terrorists have gotta learn, you mess with america, and america's gonna mess with you.
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Old 07-17-2004, 03:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by yaebginn
I support the war. I dont like to call it the war in Iraq, becasue its not. its the war on terror. we've been sittin gidly by long enough. The terrorists have gotta learn, you mess with america, and america's gonna mess with you.
AND THIS, is where the American propoghanda has apparently done it's job. The war in Iraq has NOTHING to do with the war on terrorism, they aren't related. Show me actual proof that Saddam is in any way connected to our war on terrorism. It's not there.



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Old 07-17-2004, 05:59 AM   #18
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ET Warrior, I dare you to invite a military friend of yours to read what you've posted.

I have several friends in the military. One -- Gary M. -- is in the Army airborne division and just returned from Iraq. Another -- Robbie C. -- is a Humvee driver who also recently returned from Iraq.
Either one of these fellows wouldn't think twice before punching you in the mouth.

People like you constantly whine, "Mr. Bush sent troops to Iraq, oh my God!" and, "We wasted soooo much money helping people who don't need it!"
Let me ask you this: how many pairs of socks did drop off to be sent to the troops?
How many cans of peaches did you send?
How many letters did you write?
Because I can guarantee you that not only did you not lift a finger to help the troops, they are the ones that needed it the most.

The difference between you and the people that did send socks, canned food, letters, gloves, sunglasses, etc. is that you are unwilling to help anyone not in direct consequence to you.

Final note: if you truly believe that Iraq was in no way a direct threat to America, you need a serious reality slap. After 9/11, the Florida car bomb scare, the brainwashed kid who flew into a bank tower, and the shoe bomb attempt, I'd say that the terrorist regime was pretty intent on attacking again.
Once again, the difference appears: while I don't believe myself to be in real danger, I do fear for the security of other Americans. You think that just because you're safe America should pull a Clinton and de-militarize.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:22 AM   #19
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Hey VanLingo you hit the nail on the head. I also have friends that are in training right now to go to Iraq and I also have frineds in Iraq. I send them letters on occasion and every time they right back they just want more letters cuz they have no contact to the outside world other than letters.

Yes I do believe that the war in Iraq is an attack against terroism. We took the war to them and yes sadly now they are going after our troops withtheir suicide bombers, but I think it is safe to say they are a little more prepared witht heir M16's than we are.

boranchistanger once again I am totally on your page. Finally I found a thread where people are not a bunch of cowards who hate everything going on, especially Bush. I think Bush is doing a pretty good job, it could be better I am not doubting that, but by all means he is not as nearly as bad as Clinton!!
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
AND THIS, is where the American propoghanda has apparently done it's job. The war in Iraq has NOTHING to do with the war on terrorism, they aren't related.
They're one in the same.

Quote:
Show me actual proof that Saddam is in any way connected to our war on terrorism. It's not there.
Let's see here. We got Zarquowi along with an Al Queda training camp in northern Iraq prior to the war along with Saddam's armament of terrorists along with his actions of INVTITIN terrorists into the country just prior to the war.

Now, Zarquowi fought for Al Queda during Operation Enduring Freedom (That's the war in Afghanistan for all you Eskimos out there) and was badly wounded. Now, he got a DIRECT invitatyion from Saddam inviting Zarquowi to Iraq in order to recieve medical treatement and Zarquowi has stayed there ever since. Now, Zarquowi is no normal Joe in Al Queda though. He was a key planner for 911 along with I think 4th in command of Al Queda.

Now, the Al Queda training camp, which has trained countless terrorists. That was located just south of Kurdistan and was very active according to intel reports from the US, Britain, Russia, Germany, France, China and many many others. When all of those countries say the same thing about the camp it's most likely there.

And, finally, Saddam's invital of the terrorists. Over 50% of these thugs who call themselves "freedom fighters" are foreign TERRORISTS. In other words, they strap bombs to themselves and blow up in a grocery store in the name of almighty Allah. Prior to the war, Saddam invited them in, gave them some AK-47's and paid them big bucks.

That's quite a few links to terrorism.

Quote:
I have several friends in the military. One -- Gary M. -- is in the Army airborne division and just returned from Iraq. Another -- Robbie C. -- is a Humvee driver who also recently returned from Iraq.
Either one of these fellows wouldn't think twice before punching you in the mouth.
I'm glad they have returned safetly. Could you tell them that Boran thanks them so so much for protecting this great country please?

Quote:
You think that just because you're safe America should pull a Clinton and de-militarize.
That was un disaster Grande! (Or, a big disaster for all you eskimos out there). Our military is now a million strong, nothing compared to the Cold War era. I find it quite a shame, especially since we can now lose a war if we were ever pittet up against certain countries simply because we don't have the number of soldiers. A war with China right now would be a DISASTER as the Chinese could assemble countless millions, all defending their country. Russia would be a similar mess to fight with simply because of numbers. What a shame, good job Billy.

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Old 07-17-2004, 11:02 AM   #21
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""""this is nothing compared the Germany in 1939. Nothing. It is a slap in the face when you said that. You guys act like Bush is a facist for god's sake."""""

Bush is a fascist.
A ferkin greedy warmongering fascist and if he gets elected again you better bet that draft will be coming your way, then you try and defend that ass and his sole desire to get in the history books.( Does everyone just forget that he ignored the UN and told them to SHOVE IT. In that aspect he's as bad as saddam for ignoring UN rulings on weapons etc)
They are already hurting for troops and they h ave stopped rotating them out of combat zones because of such a need. If bush dupes you all again....then you better believe the draft is on the way.

NOW onto the link between germany and the present day US.

The US attempted to justify an invasion by saying that the US WAS threatened...you know...what with the whole "THEY GOT DA NUKES!" and all. If you FOOL the pppulation into believing they are in danger, they will support military action.
Germany, 1939.
Hitler was not in supreme control of Germany though he had the LOTS Of power. He contacts the powers that be an informs them that german citizens are being oppressed and butchered in poland and that he has sent armed forces to free such citizens. The paper work is done yadda yadda. Hitler gets the reigns.
The people think it needs to be done... and support action,they were FOOLED.
Bush and his flunkies made it out that they NEEDED to go into Iraq so that weapons of mass destruction would not fall into terrorist hands..or...something along those lines.
People thought they were in danger...and that bad **** could go down....so...
JUSTIFICATION in the eyes of the blind propaganda poisoned populace.

It isn't a DIRECT parallel, but you MUST see the connection.
Do not sip from the spoon they feed you and accept what they dangle in front of you. There are far to many yes men in this world.

Frankly Germany 1939 was a better model for a nation that actually worked then the US will ever be in my life time.(apart from the whole jew fiasco. That wasn't a very good thing at all.)
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:13 PM   #22
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Your opinions of Bush concerning the UN are completly ludacris. The Un is a bunch of liers anyway, they are worse than saddam and Bush. Have you even heard of teh oil-for-food scandal? The media is trying to downplay it but basically...

"The United States General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, told Hyde's committee recently that $10.1 billion of the estimated $60 billion handled by the United Nations under the program was paid in kickbacks, bribes and set-asides to Saddam and his cronies. "

"It called the scandal "without precedent in U.N. history" and urged Annan to make his response "equally unprecedented." Annan has announced that he will name an independent panel to investigate. "

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=38040

anything concerning the UN is a lie, maybe thats why Bush did not care what they did

Bush might not be the best president ever or even the best leader in the world today. But you can not blame everything on him, there are other liers and cheaters in other organizations (that you might think good) around the world
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:18 PM   #23
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sure there are...but you are playing smoke and mirrors saying its OKAY for bush to do it if other people are. YA the UN is not perfect, but what the US did was illegal in international law. Straight up illegal. Lesser nations are brought up on war crimes for similar actions.
Bush is far from a leader....he is an opportunist.
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Old 07-17-2004, 03:33 PM   #24
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Wow VanLingo, I'm sure glad I have you here to tell me what I do and don't do. Firstly, who would I write letters to? I have no friends in the armed forces, so should I just write a random letter to a random soldier?

And for the record, I bought 5 cans of peaches to be sent to the soldiers in Iraq. I realize that 5 cans really isn't very much, but I'm a college student, and I dont have a lot of spare cash, so instead of buying more goods, I donated time, helping my girlfriend's community service group make gift-baskets for the soldiers.

And now you're thinking "WTF? You said you were against the war in Iraq? OMGWTFBBQCAKE you couldn't have sent soldiers things if you are against the war!!!!!!?!?!?!?!!?"

Oh noes, you caught me. Because it seems that it's impossible to support the troops and NOT support the war they're fighting in. Or IS IT? Just because I think the government is full of liars who started a war based on false pretenses and perpetuated lies convincing us that this war somehow aided our war on terror does NOT mean I do not have immense respect for the men and women who are willing to put their lives on the line for our country.

So, now I'll give you a few minutes to take your foot out of your mouth.



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Old 07-17-2004, 03:48 PM   #25
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I dont particualrly trust you. IMO, you're just saying you bought the peaches to WOW Van Lingo and the other supporters of the war, (boran, myself).
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Old 07-17-2004, 04:58 PM   #26
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it's funny how you support war.


however.. i dont think war is a solution, but i also think saddam was "no solution" either. he's done his **** long enough. on the other hand.. he'd died sooner or later. the problem "saddam" would have been solved on it's own.

and consequently there would be many others to "take care of". but it's plain wrong to fight all evil little men with bombs and troops..

violence does not solve problems.


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Old 07-17-2004, 05:00 PM   #27
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First of all, ET Warrior, you better not have sent peaches! You see, canned peaches contain sugar additives that are VERY bad for soldiers in the heat of Iraq.
It's quite obvious that you only said that because I did. The only I reason I said "peaches" was because it was the first thing that came to my mind. Please don't lie to make yourself look better.

Second, YES! Send a letter to a random soldier! Heck, women VOLUNTEERED (that's a taboo word nowadays in this country, especially with the liberal media twisting every charity around) during the World Wars.
If you're having trouble finding a way to do this (God forbid you actually make an effort), here's a link: http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html. Or you can visit your local church and drop a letter. I'm sure they won't mind spending a couple of bucks on stamps to say "thank you".

PenzerTekk -- Bush is a Facist, huh? I suppose that the majority of voters which elected him are as well.
I have a solution: LEAVE THIS COUNTRY.
You say that we were never in any real danger -- tell that to the families and friends of THESE PEOPLE. << This is a list of the victims from the September 11, 2001 attacks. I dare you to say that they died for a good reason and knowing that they would perish.
Finally, if a draft comes my way, I will be proud to serve and defend my country. I am not in the least worried about it. The same can be said for any other real, red-blooded, patriotic American (which are the only people that should be living here).
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Old 07-17-2004, 08:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
First of all, ET Warrior, you better not have sent peaches! You see, canned peaches contain sugar additives that are VERY bad for soldiers in the heat of Iraq.
Jesus, now I'm a terrible person because I sent peaches? Fine, i'll just pretend I haven't done anything to help them, because I'm obviously a liar, and you're obviously right. I'll probably burn in hell.

Quote:
I dont particualrly trust you. IMO
And I personally don't care if you trust me. I did what I did, and it would be pointless for me to make it up.


And as for sending a random letter....I'm sure that'd be swell. Dear random soldier, Thanks for fighting in a war I don't believe in, our government sure is a bunch of pricks for making you lay your life on the line for something so pointless. Keep fighting the good fight!

Quote:
The same can be said for any other real, red-blooded, patriotic American (which are the only people that should be living here).
Yeah, because you are only patriotic if you're willing to KILL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS for a government that doesn't even care about your own life. That makes sense



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Old 07-17-2004, 09:08 PM   #29
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haha i laugh at people who say war in iraq is bad. if its so bad why dont we just let the terrorist come to america and kill us all? thats what will happen if Kerry is elected. he will pull out all the soldiers and then osama and his friends will blow us up.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:30 PM   #30
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Bush is a fascist.
A ferkin greedy warmongering fascist and if he gets elected again you better bet that draft will be coming your way, then you try and defend that ass and his sole desire to get in the history books.( Does everyone just forget that he ignored the UN and told them to SHOVE IT. In that aspect he's as bad as saddam for ignoring UN rulings on weapons etc)
He did? What UN rulings did he break? There are no UN Resolutions condeming US action and the US was actually defending the 14 OTHER RESOLUTIONS THE UN FAILED TO BACK UP!

And you seriosuly believe that is why Bush did this, to get into history? Give me a break. I huess that is why Roosavelt sent troops to Europe and the Pacific, or when Truman sent troops to Korea? How about when Wilson sent troops to Europe for no stinking reason in 1917 to save the "democratic" nations of Europe. And there is no need for the draft, casualties have been too low for a draft. A draft would also screw any Republican running for office in 2008, so Bush wouldn't be that stupid.

And once again I would like to add that Bush cannot do anything without the approval of congress. over 75% of congress (Made up of Democrats and Republicans) approved military action and gave Bush the go-ahead. Without that then Bush couldn't do squat. And I assume the leaders of the 30+ countries who volunteered to join the coalition are also fascist? Give me a break. Only the coalition assembled for World Wars I, II and Gulf War 1 were larger than this one.

Quote:
The US attempted to justify an invasion by saying that the US WAS threatened...you know...what with the whole "THEY GOT DA NUKES!" and all. If you FOOL the pppulation into believing they are in danger, they will support military action.
Hitler was not in supreme control of Germany though he had the LOTS Of power. He contacts the powers that be an informs them that german citizens are being oppressed and butchered in poland and that he has sent armed forces to free such citizens. The paper work is done yadda yadda. Hitler gets the reigns.
The people think it needs to be done... and support action,they were FOOLED.
Bush and his flunkies made it out that they NEEDED to go into Iraq so that weapons of mass destruction would not fall into terrorist hands..or...something along those lines.
People thought they were in danger...and that bad **** could go down....so...
JUSTIFICATION in the eyes of the blind propaganda poisoned populace.
Yep, I can think of a thousand time Bush, Blair and the leaders of almost every other country, including France Germany and Russia, said "THEY GOT DA NUKES!" Bush always included numerous other reasons in his speeches, the liberal media always just pointed to that.

And you forget also that the majority of the German people were against the war in 1939. They didn't believe the maniac who ruled over them like a dictator. In 1914, when Germany rightfully went to war for her self-defense, the populace was all for the war. In 1939 the populace was very against it. You just never hear about it because everyone who spoke out was shot in 1939!

And Hitler never said Germans were being prosecuted in Poland, he only said that Poland rightfully belonged to Germany, very different from Bush and Iraq. And as for propoganda, I do agree there has been a lot of propoganda. I mean, the Michael Moore film along with all the editorials in the newspapers making up "facts" and so forth. Man, the media has been pounding into our heads that Buishg is a Nazi and only went in for oil and that Iraq is a mess....

Oh, you mean propoganda for the war? All I can say is that I barely see Bush talking on TV once every 2 months. Every other day I hear Michael Moore and other liberal fanatics.

Quote:
First of all, ET Warrior, you better not have sent peaches! You see, canned peaches contain sugar additives that are VERY bad for soldiers in the heat of Iraq.
It's quite obvious that you only said that because I did. The only I reason I said "peaches" was because it was the first thing that came to my mind. Please don't lie to make yourself look better.
Peaches are food, at least he sent something lol. I feel so bad that I haven't sent anything.

Quote:
Finally, if a draft comes my way, I will be proud to serve and defend my country. I am not in the least worried about it. The same can be said for any other real, red-blooded, patriotic American (which are the only people that should be living here).
Same here when it comes for the draft. I would actually volunteer if there is a draft, that way I don't have to serve with people who have unwillingly been picked off the street.

But I disagree with your last part. People are allowed to disagree in this country and just because they do so doesn't make them un-American. Since I oppose our wars in Kosovo, Bosnia and Somalia does that make me un American? Since I disagree with the way the Afghan war has been executed does that mean I'm un-American? Of course it doesn't and I can't stand it when people say that.

Quote:
And as for sending a random letter....I'm sure that'd be swell. Dear random soldier, Thanks for fighting in a war I don't believe in, our government sure is a bunch of pricks for making you lay your life on the line for something so pointless. Keep fighting the good fight!
Man, I bet that soldier would be overwhelmed by your support lol. I find it good to send letters, which I have done, do soldiers. Just thank them for what they did. Van lingo, please thank your friends for me for the great job they have done and for protecting this country. They are the true heroes.

Quote:
Yeah, because you are only patriotic if you're willing to KILL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS for a government that doesn't even care about your own life. That makes sense
Yep, sounds like Bush alright. Oh wait, rather than trying to put us in misery and make the government even more powerful he actually cuts spending and lowers taxes big time! And he actually prevents drillers from mining off the coast of Florida. And he, oh my God, he actually goes after terrorists rather than allow them to stay as they are. How evil this man is, how eviiil.

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Old 07-18-2004, 01:36 AM   #31
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Personally, I don't think the war in Iraq is good at all. But hey, we're there anyway, it's no use to try and prevent them now. I'd help the soldiers, even though I don't support the war.

Kudos to you ET. You said mostly what I wanted to say.

This "war on terror" propaganda was only meant to be for Osama.

Couple years later no Osama.

People start getting anxious.

Oh hey, I got an idea. Let's go into Iraq! It's perfect!

[cue spreading of lies here]






That's the last time I buy anything just because it's furry!

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Old 07-18-2004, 02:53 AM   #32
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I would have bought the peaches/whatever can'd good and ate them. Charity begins at home.

I dont live in the US. THK GOD. I wouldn't lower myself to dwelling and by dwelling there support such a fuk'd up swill of a nation.

IF you are drafted you wont be defendig your country at all. You will be defending the foreign investments of a few suits and possibly dying for said investments. GO YOU!
I would go to war for my country for the right reasons. The right resons being an ideological war such as ww2. Its good that we will most likely never see something like that again. Just these selfish actiosnof expansion and investment

I will never trust or defend the actions and intentions of the US. It is an opportunist nation and throughout history they have proved this.
WW1 WW2. Hang out of the fight until absolutely necessary. The US did not want war with hitler....actually..they weren't even ready for war, but thats another topic.
And dont mess with me when it comes to WW2 history. Read past the damn books you were given in high school and you may find some answers.
If I wasn't a lazy bastard I'd post numerous passages.

Honestly...I dont blame you for being poisoned by the people who claim to lead you...its not your fault. Media rules your life and its just ratehr sad that you let it happen.

Nothing but a subtle fascist state.
Your country is out of whack.
I just hope I live long enough to see it fall apart.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:08 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
Judging by your attitude, I'd say you were French.
Alright! Your first baseless accusation and jump to conclusions about me was wrong, and yet you seem to have learned nothing. Well, maybe you'll get lucky and he WILL be french, otherwise you'll have to pull the OTHER foot out.

Quote:
Yep, sounds like Bush alright. Oh wait, rather than trying to put us in misery and make the government even more powerful he actually cuts spending and lowers taxes big time!
Yeah! And then, after sending our troops to Afghanistan, he tried to slip in a combat pay cut! What a real swell fellow.



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Old 07-18-2004, 04:18 AM   #34
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Hmm. And you accused us of believing propaganda...

I talked to my two Army friends about the pay cuts -- both say it's bull. I spoke with a former Navy SEAL yesterday -- same thing.
My grandfather served in Korea -- his pension is untouched.

If anyone is a victim of propaganda, it's you fellas.

Once again, the difference between us is: you'd rather sit in your demilitarized box and watch TV. I'll speak to real people who matter.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by VanLingo
you'd rather sit in your demilitarized box and watch TV.
That's fantastic! I don't watch TV!



Oh, and the paycuts didn't pass, because everyone realized that cutting their combat pay right after you start a war is pretty crap. So your military friends weren't affected by it.

I'm amazed you managed to talk to 4 different people about it in the 10 minutes between my post about it and your reply...you're quick.



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Old 07-18-2004, 04:29 AM   #36
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I dont watch TV either.
And I'm also not french.

Really hard for you to believe that the US is not loved around the world isn't it?

I come to my conclusions on my own through research and digging. I dont go.." wow...a war with iraq...they MUST be doin bad things. I have faith in my president...after all...he's president...he wouldn't be president if he was an utter ass hat would he?....would...he?"

Just proves...

A: Something fishy go thim in power.
Or
B: The majority of your population are a bunch of hick retards who act out deliverance every tuesday with glee.
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Old 07-18-2004, 07:02 AM   #37
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My inquiries were a response to another thread. There was a link to some videos that were about the alleged cuts. When you posted, it just happened to be something that I was already looking into.
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Old 07-18-2004, 10:45 AM   #38
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And you said the US had propoganda going on? LOL, just listen to you guys!

Before I get into Iraq I would like to address one quote.

Quote:
I will never trust or defend the actions and intentions of the US. It is an opportunist nation and throughout history they have proved this.
WW1 WW2. Hang out of the fight until absolutely necessary. The US did not want war with hitler....actually..they weren't even ready for war, but thats another topic.
Are you Europeans that ignorant? You guys still don't understand that the US saved your guyses buttoxes twice in both wars. If it was not for US intervention in 1917 (An intervention that was unneccessary and against the wrong side) the German offensive in the west would of been decisively successful and the result would of been a German victory (Wouldn't that have been nice).

World War 2 was also an instance in which the US saved the European's buttoxes. In 1941 the Nazi invasion in the Soviet Union was being very successful while Rommel in Africa was being just as successful. In Africa Rommel's Afrika corps were completely overwhelming that nincompoo known as Montgomery. The Brits simply did not have the manpower nor the firepower to stop the Nazi war machine (Plus they were up against a genius).

So, US is attacked by Japan on December 7, 1941. US is now in the war. US troops are now coming to Europe, once again, in droves. US tanks are fully capable of matching Nazi Panzars and Patton is at least somewhat able to fight Rommel. So, the tide now turns in Africa (The key point of the war was here) forcing Hitler to draw away troops from the Eastern Front and therefor leading to the inevitable turning point at Stalingrad. From that moment on there was never any doubt that the Allies would win.

So, once again, I cannot stand the fact that Europeans hate America even though they saved their buttoxes 2 times in 2 wars. And I'm not even talking about after WW2. Ever heard of the Marshall plan? Ever heard of the reconstruction of Germany? Have you ever heard of the communist party of France (Which was stopped from gaining control of France thanks to US intervention)? Have you ever heard of the Cold War for God's sakes? Remember, if there ever was a war between USSR and US that the US forces would be once again doing the majority of the fighting in Europe?

OK, enough of that.

Quote:
I dont live in the US. THK GOD. I wouldn't lower myself to dwelling and by dwelling there support such a fuk'd up swill of a nation.
OK, this "f'd up swill of a nation' has the world largest economy, has the world's most powerful army, is not Socialist like you Europeans, actually doesn't have a currupt government and the general welfare is phenominal. Besides that it has the best healthcare in the world, gthe most new technological innovations every year and is the protector of the free world.

Wow, what an f'd up country. Better than any of you European countries. Once again, complete propoganda by your governments.

Quote:
Honestly...I dont blame you for being poisoned by the people who claim to lead you...its not your fault. Media rules your life and its just ratehr sad that you let it happen.
Alright! Now we got the media ruling our lives. So, since the media rules our lives then why aren't we all anti-war? Since you don't live in the US you obviously don't know that the media in this country is extremely liberal and left. Fox news is the only station which has a conservative bias on it. The libs got NBC, ABC, CBS, WB, MSNBC, CNBC, CNN and others.

And as for leader's propoganda. Like I said, I rarely ever hear Bush or any of his administration. You would have to watch CSpan to even possibly get a view of him. Once again, European propoganda you guys are getting.

Quote:
Nothing but a subtle fascist state.
Your country is out of whack.
I just hope I live long enough to see it fall apart.
You know what Van Lingo, I would love to see this guy's face if the US falls apart. I would love to see his face when he suddenly realizes that his country is now defenselesss against its enemies. I would love to see his face when his country's economy falls apart because of no US to trade with. I would love to see his face when the reality comes in that the UN can't police the world like the US has been doing for 50 years. WOuldn't that be funny!

Quote:
Yeah! And then, after sending our troops to Afghanistan, he tried to slip in a combat pay cut! What a real swell fellow.
Like Van Lingo said, it's bull. Talk to any soldier in the service right now and he will laugh if you ask him if he's got a paycheck cut. My Grandpa still recieves money from World War II and my uncle fvrom his Vietnam service. Their pensions have only increased, not decreased. Oh, and remember to, if there was a paycheck cut, congress would be the culprit, not the president.

Quote:
I come to my conclusions on my own through research and digging. I dont go.." wow...a war with iraq...they MUST be doin bad things. I have faith in my president...after all...he's president...he wouldn't be president if he was an utter ass hat would he?....would...he?"
Wow! You have a disturbed mind. You are the most misguided fellow I have ever heard post on these forums! Tell me, why did we go into Iraq, why did the entire congress approve and indorse and vote on it? And how were we able to get over 30 countries in our coalition? I'm pretty curious to hear your response.

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Old 07-18-2004, 11:26 AM   #39
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(Oh by the way...not french or from any other european nation...keep at it bucko. i'm sure you can hit it sooner or later)

"Besides that it has the best healthcare in the world,"

bwahahahahahaha. If u have the money you mean. A socialist nation is way superior then your selfish capitalist BS. Dont even try. Just dont. INFACT...my country is fighting to keep our hospitals from being privatized like your BS health system. The way your system works.
If you cant pay..you are ****ed or have to pay what you can.
If you CAN pay..you get the royal treatment and are skirted infront.(brief)
Thats just wrong. Because you have more money does not mean you are more important.
wealth does not mean you are better and in need of faster medical attention over someone else who is just as sick as you.

ON TO WW2
And you know what...if the US had just kept up shipping goods to britain and the USSR... (which they eventually did after much begging and pleading from S.W churchill and stalin. Hell, it took them years to convince the US to open a 2nd front against hitler, but hey.....long topic..)...and decided to NEVER actually send troops..Hitler still would have lost. By the time the US was seeing action in Europe the fate of the war had been decided, as the USSR, the Red Army, mother russia had already started destroying germany across the Ost front. By the time the US enetered into it, it was a matter of who got what and how they could stop the communists from taking germany and hell..whatever else they wanted.(It was all about ideology and keeping communism down)
The US DID NOT win ww2. THE USSR did the deed and came out on top...how and why they collapsed years afterwards is irrelevant.)
They skirted in at the last minute to get the glory. Sure it was needed and appreciated , but IT was NOT a must.

whats this,..Patton vs Rommel..wtf are you goin on about here? The US had no military presence in africa (apart from its machinery sent to the british) until that campaign was all but over. Its funny...but the US's first military action in the EURO/Africa theatre of war was against...yes..THE FRENCH!@!...Wouldn't have guessed it would you. Vichy france....they landed on the shores of northern africa and were actually repelled in some cases by the honour bound french forces.(though they obviously swept over the units that were actually resisting in short order)

And I have said it to my friends and to others I talk to about the US....(my gf is actually american...sad but true)..I would be willing to tough out the collapse of the US and its ramifications world wide then to stomache this tripe they do to the world over and over. If sanity is not brought to the leadership of the US I fear for the world and what might happen.


Guess I'll address one last quote..

"general welfare is phenominal."

I assume you mean...like..the welfare system. You wanna know what else is Phenominal? The amount of people on it. Now thats BLOODY phenominal.
The US does not care about its population.....hell ..that would be socialist. HELL..that would make sense.
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Old 07-18-2004, 07:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by boranchistanger
actually doesn't have a currupt government

Like Van Lingo said, it's bull. Talk to any soldier in the service right now and he will laugh if you ask him if he's got a paycheck cut.
To the first part of that quote...HA! HAHA! HAHAHA! Ever heard of a man named Richard Nixon? And that's only one of the FAMOUS incidents of government corruption. If you truly believe that ANY government of ANY nation isn't corrupt, you are more naive than even I gave you credit for.

As to the second part...
Quote:
Originally posted by me
Yeah! And then, after sending our troops to Afghanistan, he tried to slip in a combat pay cut! What a real swell fellow.
TRIED, so they obviously DIDNT get a paycut. That doesn't change the fact that Bush WANTED them to get paid less than what they do for fighting in the war.



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