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Old 09-09-2004, 01:01 PM   #1
beetlebz
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soapbox post - a plea to server admins

ok i posted about this yesterday, and after playing today im so worked up i feel the need to take the soap box for a moment.

the 3 rules i learned when i began playing jedi outcast online, were 1)always begin each fight with a bow, end each fight with a "good fight" 2) never attack someone without their saber up, and 3) always give someone a chance to get up when youve knocked them down.

in outcast's golden age, gameplay was fun. people obeyed the rules, and actually cared about the other people in the server. now after being absent for some time, 2 things are happening in EVERY SINGLE SERVER I HAVE BEEN TO. first, i get attacked from behind while spectating another fight, without my light saber up. and secondly, when people engage in a duel, they attack with a red DFA (or any cheap move) while im bowing.

the game itself has remained unchanged since ive been away, and thats refreshing. i really enjoy outcast as it is. the problem is with the quality of players that have overrun the game. maybe they got bored with quake, i dont know. but whats very evident is that server admins either dont monitor their servers appropriately or they just dont care.

today for instance i was hanging out on the IP clan server, just watching the battle, seeing who i thought would be an interesting match to duel with. while spectating one of IPs own members attacked me from behind, then made it his personal mission to ruin the gaming experience for me. on their own server! its sickening that even the clans dont care about their own image anymore, and think so highly of themselves that honor has flown right out the window. to overuse a cliche, they have turned to the dark side.

maybe im just upset and ranting, but maybe i actually care bout my gaming experience and that of others. im disgusted with the process of switching to different multiplayer games because lemmings have over run the one i currently enjoy. its happened in the past, Battlezone, then Tribes, then Counter Strike, then Fire Arms, then Day of Defeat, and now even BF1942 and BFV are getting over run. im completely sick of these honorless lemmings taking over and forcing out the majority of the honorable people in the game. those that are there for the fun and challenge rather than to see their name on a rank board.

with this i ask admins of outcast servers to do one of two things.

first, assign reliable admins to the server so they can moderate this type of behavior and game play.

secondly, if you just dont care, then either shut down the server or lable it as such a lemming server.

its not fair to the gaming community to have to stop playing a game because people dont care, or just dont properly monitor the servers. its an insult to the community as a whole, and downright disgusting to those of us who have been gaming since the first generation of 3dfx cards, and even before that.

if you dont care, let everyone know you dont care so they dont go to your server expecting a decent gaming experience with decent people.

thank you.
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Old 09-09-2004, 01:11 PM   #2
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Re: soapbox post - a plea to server admins

Quote:
Originally posted by beetlebz


the 3 rules i learned when i began playing jedi outcast online, were 1)always begin each fight with a bow, end each fight with a "good fight" 2) never attack someone without their saber up, and 3) always give someone a chance to get up when youve knocked them down.

that's your problem right there. you assume those rules are universal.
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Old 09-09-2004, 02:22 PM   #3
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"label it a laming server" ? Lol, that's actually playing the game the way it was meant to be played. It's not like it's an RPG (or even remotely related); just some people apparently think it is...


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 09-09-2004, 02:45 PM   #4
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Re: soapbox post - a plea to server admins

Quote:
Originally posted by beetlebz
if you dont care, let everyone know you dont care
Okay... Here goes....

I don't care about phony, made up rules, I play the game (JA too) the way it was meant to be played.
Thank you.
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Old 09-09-2004, 02:54 PM   #5
TK-8252
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You came to the wrong forums to whine about lamers.
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Old 09-09-2004, 03:17 PM   #6
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case, and point.
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Old 09-09-2004, 04:23 PM   #7
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Re: soapbox post - a plea to server admins

Quote:
Originally posted by beetlebz

in outcast's golden age, gameplay was fun. people obeyed the rules, and actually cared about the other people in the server. now after being absent for some time, 2 things are happening in EVERY SINGLE SERVER I HAVE BEEN TO. first, i get attacked from behind while spectating another fight, without my light saber up. and secondly, when people engage in a duel, they attack with a red DFA (or any cheap move) while im bowing.

im disgusted with the process of switching to different multiplayer games because lemmings have over run the one i currently enjoy. its happened in the past, Battlezone, then Tribes, then Counter Strike, then Fire Arms, then Day of Defeat, and now even BF1942 and BFV are getting over run. im completely sick of these honorless lemmings taking over and forcing out the majority of the honorable people in the game. those that are there for the fun and challenge rather than to see their name on a rank board.

If want to spectate without being attacked, there is this mode called.....hmmm, what is it called again......wait, give me a minute.....oh, yeah, SPECTATOR, that lets you fly around the map or follow any player playing on the server, without being attacked, imagine that.

"But I lose all my points if I spectate!" you might say. Well, if you are standing around watching other people play instead of playing, you clearly don't care about getting the top score (the point of all other FPS games), so why do you care about losing your points?

Don't like getting hit when you "bow"? Then don't "bow". Who told you it was "mandatory" anyway, a real live Jedi, or some nerdy teen with false ideas about "honor". I don't remember Luke, Vader, Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Maul, etc. "bowing" before a duel. Even those who like to "bow" before a duel have said they don't mind if their opponent doesn't, as long as the opponent gives them time to perform their virtual ritual.

The other games you mentioned aren't being "overrun with lamers", they are just playing games the way 99% of the gaming community plays them, the way they were designed to be played (some clues: programmers putting guns, explosives, and other weapons into the game, and points being awarded for kills or flags captured, not for how well you bow, chat, or role-play). It's the "honor" players in Jedi Knight games who are the oddballs, not the other way around.

Please, don't tell me you tried to follow JK2 "honor" rules in those other games you mentioned.

What you consider the "golden age" some of us consider to be the Dark Ages. If what you say is true, that there is real, true FFA taking place "in EVERY SINGLE SERVER I HAVE BEEN TO", then THIS is the "golden age" of JK2.


Last edited by Amidala from Chop Shop; 09-09-2004 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 09-09-2004, 05:25 PM   #8
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Re: Re: soapbox post - a plea to server admins

Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
a real live Jedi,
thats a sickness. you need professional help.



and yes, we did follow rules of honor in EVERY one of those games, and successfully i might add. its not about following "rules", its about not being a hack.

i joined a "clan" WAY back around 95 or so, called the 911 squadron. we played based purely on honor and paved the way for a whole new style of game play. this existed right up until the end of the tribes era, and all hell broke loose, and "hacks" like the people i mentioned, plus most of the people that repllied to this thread, stopped caring about the gaming experience of others. there were no cheap shots, no back stabbing attacks, and certainly no bad attitudes. it was just a game, and the goal was to keep it fun. reexamining this thread, i seriously doubt most people would understand that.
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Old 09-09-2004, 06:18 PM   #9
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Re: Re: Re: soapbox post - a plea to server admins

Quote:
Originally posted by beetlebz
there were no cheap shots, no back stabbing attacks
I don't care if someone kills me while I have the chat box up, I honestly don't. In FFA, I use all weapons (Repeater, Rockets and Disruptor are my most used), all force powers I have, on anyone. It's fun. What was the worst thing I've ever typed into the chat when I died? ns, rofl, or XD. After all....

Quote:
Originally posted by beetlebz
it was just a game, and the goal was to keep it fun.
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Old 09-09-2004, 08:50 PM   #10
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Re: Re: Re: soapbox post - a plea to server admins

Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
Who told you it was "mandatory" anyway, a real live Jedi, or some nerdy teen with false ideas about "honor"?
Quote:
Originally posted by beetlebz
thats a sickness. you need professional help.


sar·casm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

You didn't answer my question, by the way, but we all know the answer. And you didn't have any good responses to my points about spectating and not bowing, but that's OK. It's much easier to take the "cheap shot" that you claim to hate.

*sigh* we've gone over this topic five million times, but since you are new here, I'll give you the summary:

1. The game is one of many (beginning with the original DOOM) that feature a gametype called "Free For All" or, originally, "deathmatch". The one "rule" is (as stated on the loading screen) "Defeat your opponents to score points". Period. Nothing about bowing, "chatkilling", "saber down = peace", "no-whatever-I-consider-to-be-a-cheap-shot-or-I'll-get-upset-and-call-you-names", etc.

2. Some people in JK2 decided to add on a bunch of made-up, phony, artificial, contrary-to-the-nature-of-the-game "rules" and "honor codes", thinking somehow it made them more "honorable"\"chivalrous"\"Jedi-like"\whatever than the "lamers" they disdain. In many cases, the additional "rules" to restrict combat to very limited circumstances helped to hide their incompetence and lack of skill at true "deathmatch" or "Free For All". They can't handle the pace and complexity of unrestricted, full-weapon, full-Force combat, so they hid behind saber-only (no guns\explosives), no Force dueling and "honor codes". It's much easier to learn to bow and whine about laming than learn to strafe-jump and shoot accurately. You might be an exception, but it's true for many others (they come to my servers and whine "guns suck", "rocket whore, use a saber", and of course "lamer" after being repeatedly killed).

"But it takes no skill to kill a 'defenseless' player" you whine. On real FFA servers, people don't spend much time standing around, doing nothing, or chatting. They are too busy playing and having fun. And they don't get upset when they are "killed" while typing, it's no big deal. I know "honor" players just can't grasp the concept, but what's the big deal? You click your mouse and are instantly "reborn" with 125 health and 25 shields. In fact, in CTF (Capture The Flag), experienced players are frequently killing themselves as a useful tactic. So you "die" in a video game, so what, who cares? Quit making such a big deal out of it.

Only in Jedi Knight games are some players so shocked, upset, and offended when what is supposed to happen (players "killing" other players) happens.

3. Well, it's no use having "rules" and "honor codes" without some means of enforcing them, right? That lead to the "admin mods" with their abuse-prone commands. Instead of simply playing the game with their queer (in its original meaning of strange) "codes" and "rules", they coerced, brainwashed, and humiliated players (many of whom were simply trying to play the game the way they played the single-player game or the way they had always played other FPS games) by amslapping\ampunishing\amsleeping them and berating them (often with very vulgar and profane language) that they are "noobs" and "lamers" and "cheap". All because the "lamers" didn't know about or didn't agree with the false, phony, added-on rules. But the coercion, humiliation, brainwashing, peer-pressure, and abuse were brutally effective, creating hoards of players who were unskilled at the game but good at bowing and hitting their "lamer" chat binds.

4. And to enforce these "rules", you need "admins" constantly patrolling the server. Ever go to a store and have employees follow you around because they just knew you were probably going to steal something? Ever see those prison movies with the shotgun-toting guards high up in their towers and on the prison walls, scanning the prisoners down the prison exercise yard, just waiting for something to happen? I visited an "honor" server to see how the "other side" lived, and I swear, it reminded me of a prison exercise yard. The "admins" had teleported themselves high up in the map where they were unreachable (and to make them feel "superior" to the poor peons who couldn't teleport themselves). They stood around up there like prison guards, until they saw some "lamer" accidentally or purposely kill someone who was standing around, saber-off, doing nothing. They amslept him and started tediously lecturing him about what a "noob" and "lamer" he was, yadda yadda. The other players had the typical timid, tentative, "Oh God I hope I don't get falsely accused of laming someone" playing style so common on those servers.

Wow, what a fun place to play.

The net effect of these idiotic rules, and the admin mods and admins necessary to enforce them, is to turn off and drive away players, both new and veteran, keeping the game from being as popular as it should have been, and ultimately dooming the game to a premature death.

Anyway, I have gone on and on and could go on and on. I know you have been playing the game your way so long you just can't conceive of any other way to play, and I don't expect to "convert" you. I just wanted you to understand that the people who responded to your thread aren't "honorless noobs" and barbarians, but are actually experienced gamers who have seen the evils that come with "honor" rules and who still know the joy and thrills of playing the game the way it was designed to be played.

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Old 09-10-2004, 09:07 AM   #11
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The player/team who has the highest score at the end (or completes his objectives successfully first), wins.

"h0n0r" is made-up and it doesn't matter if you follow it or not. If you want to follow it fine, but don't expect others to do so. Lighten up and you'll have more fun...


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Old 09-11-2004, 12:50 PM   #12
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what mp game did your clan play in 1995? im curious, Duke3d? how far did honor go in that? comeon, i wanna know

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Old 09-11-2004, 11:00 PM   #13
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It just occured to me that maybe this guy was being sarcastic the whole time!

I mean really, how could you have honor in any of those games? Lemmings, indeed!

Well, you got me.. had me going for awhile there... ; )


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Old 09-12-2004, 11:09 AM   #14
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Actually, I don't see any tongue-in-cheek at all, I think he is dead serious (unfortunately).

I think the clan name "911 Squadron" gives a hint: I bet it was a Falcon 3.0 "clan".

I don't know how "honor" would work in a flight sim. "Landing gear down = peace" perhaps? He seems pretty upset about being attacked from behind, so maybe "Squadron 911" only made head-on passes and never attacked from six o'clock. Hard to be a good fighter pilot that way.

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Old 09-12-2004, 05:21 PM   #15
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Unfair play is a part of any game. But there is still plenty of servers out there where you can find yourself a good clean fight.


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Old 09-12-2004, 06:29 PM   #16
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the only unfair gameplay i can think of would be exploiting bugs to your advantage, or perhaps using some wall hacks, or aimbots.

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Old 09-12-2004, 06:34 PM   #17
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Yeah I would agree.


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Old 09-18-2004, 08:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop
I don't know how "honor" would work in a flight sim. "Landing gear down = peace" perhaps? He seems pretty upset about being attacked from behind, so maybe "Squadron 911" only made head-on passes and never attacked from six o'clock. Hard to be a good fighter pilot that way.
Amidala you're one of the reasons I still browse these forums, your posts crack me up, good points above too .

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Old 10-21-2004, 04:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
[i]I don't know how "honor" would work in a flight sim.

"Landing gear down = peace" perhaps?

He seems pretty upset about being attacked from behind, so maybe "Squadron 911" only made head-on passes and never attacked from six o'clock. Hard to be a good fighter pilot that way. [/B]

My father always said, "it's better to be a smart ass than a dumb ass."

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Old 10-21-2004, 12:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by griff38
"it's better to be a smart ass than a dumb ass."
That's MY saying.
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Old 10-21-2004, 09:33 PM   #21
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i love rocket kill jedi video

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Old 10-21-2004, 10:55 PM   #22
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Hi,

Personally, I think you both make really good arguments. Everyone has a different idea of what's "fair". However everyone believes SOMETHING is fair. (I DON'T believe that "truth is relative". I DO believe in absolute truth, but "fairness" I find kind of vague.) In this thread one person believes that the only way fairness is an issue is if cheat mods are used. The other has a more strict view.

I've only ever played multi with friends on my local network, but we have a kind of in-between view. We all like things to be a little more orderly, so if someone has their lightsaber off, then you don't attack them. That was about the only rule, and how it was "enforced" was if someon DID break this "untyped rule" then it made the rest of us mad, and the game quikly became "all against one"!

I kind of like the idea of labels just a little, because I can see good to both sides. The strict side is orderly and is more relaxing. The other side is fast paced and exciting. I don't see anything "wimpy" or "under-handed" about either, as long as people entering the game understand what the local agreement is on what's "fair". What's wrong about having both types?

Thanks for listening,
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Old 10-22-2004, 11:29 AM   #23
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Saxman
What's wrong about having both types?

Well, if you read my post again, I explain why adding on rules might seem harmless but is actually bad for the game. Servers with added-on rules have admin mods and admins to enforce them, players get abused by admins "enforcing rules" and "maintaining order" (like prison guards), players get turned off by abuse and stop playing, the game dies.

Quote:
fear leads to anger... anger leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering.
Honor leads to admin mods...admin mods lead to abuse...abuse leads to suffering...suffering leads to death of the game.

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Old 10-22-2004, 11:44 AM   #24
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the players who dont want to be abused by admin mods can play on servers that dont have the extra rules. that is the whole nature of having both. i dont see what the problem is, having both sounds win-win.
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Old 10-22-2004, 12:26 PM   #25
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The problem is there's very, very few servers without admin mods. If the vast majority of the servers are running mods like that, odds are you aren't going to be able to easily find a server you like.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 10-22-2004, 01:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
The problem is there's very, very few servers without admin mods. If the vast majority of the servers are running mods like that, odds are you aren't going to be able to easily find a server you like.
Reading the first post in this thread, it sure doesn't sound that way.
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Old 10-22-2004, 03:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
the players who dont want to be abused by admin mods can play on servers that dont have the extra rules. that is the whole nature of having both. i dont see what the problem is, having both sounds win-win.
Again, if you read my post, I explain why that doesn't work.

1. The "honor" servers use coercion, humilation, and peer-pressure to convince new players that their way is the "right" way to play, and only "noobs" are "lamers". If they don't want to be a "noob", they need to learn and obey "the rules" that beetlebz listed. The new players are mostly kids who want to "fit in" and who are very suceptible to peer-pressure. They don't know that those "rules" are phony and made-up, especially if the last 3 servers they went to had similar rules. That causes the "honor" code follower's numbers to grow and the number of "honor" servers to increase, making it even more likely that the majority of servers that new AND veteran players will find are "honor" servers. It becomes a positive-feedback vicious cycle.

2. The "honor" players will go to "normal" servers and start whining and crying about "laming" and "chatkilling", often with lots of profanity and insults. They try to peer-pressure everyone into playing "the right way" according to their "rules".

By contrast, the "normal" players have no admin commands to humiliate "honor" players with. If an "honor" player starts crying and cursing about "laming", the other players might say "leave if you don't like it" but they don't try to intimidate and brainwash people. They are usually too busy playing and having fun, not obsessing about following and\or enforcing "rules" or "maintaining order".

Your theory of peaceful co-existence could work only if "honor" players didn't abuse players and brainwash new players to their way of playing, and if they didn't go to other servers and try to evangelize players to their way of thinking. But those things are exactly what "honor" players do.

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Old 10-22-2004, 04:43 PM   #28
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hmmm,

Sounds like one solution to the problem would be to have someone start a server with two areas on it. One "Honor", one "Standard", and have them labeled such (telling players EXACTLY what's expected inside). With one concrete rule......anyone complaining about the rules gets booted. "Honor" people wouldn't be able to "whine", or try to "evangelize" new players. "Standard" people wouldn't be able to flame "Honor" people for having "Phony Rules". Like I said before I've never played "Out There" with all of you vets, but I still like the idea of PLAYER kept "Honor" systems. Like the one on my network, someone violates "Honor rules" and everyone attacks them. People who are interested in "Honor playing" will keep the "Rules" automatically without NEEDING admins, and "Standard" players will think its not fun and go the the "Standard" servers. If they start "whining" about it (either side), it gets them booted and they won't be fighting about it anymore. I don't really think anyone will like this idea, so I doubt it will be implemented. People like fighting otherwise we wouldn't have FPS games .

Oh well,
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Old 10-22-2004, 05:09 PM   #29
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Sax, that sounds good in theory, but guess what - the "honor" servers won't comply. And labeling the "honor" servers wouldn't make less of them. It'd still be 99% of the "prison yard" servers. It makes no difference.
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Old 10-22-2004, 05:18 PM   #30
Shok_Tinoktin
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I think Sax has it dead on. If the majority of players dont like "honor rules", than why wouldnt they keep to the non-honor servers. And why wouldn't the honor players comply. If they cant stand to play with "lamers", than why would they leave the honor servers. It just makes no sense, but like The Saxman, I'm gonna have to just say, "Oh well"
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Old 10-22-2004, 05:20 PM   #31
TK-8252
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I see someone here isn't a veteran JO and JA player...
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Old 10-22-2004, 05:57 PM   #32
The Saxman
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Quote:
Originally posted by TK-8252
I see someone here isn't a veteran JO and JA player...
I've said twice now that I'm not!!
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Old 10-22-2004, 06:10 PM   #33
Amidala from Chop Shop
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Saxman
hmmm,

Sounds like one solution to the problem would be to have someone start a server with two areas on it. One "Honor", one "Standard", and have them labeled such (telling players EXACTLY what's expected inside).
Actually, the author of the most popular Jedi Academy admin mod tried to do just what you suggested, with one part of the map designated "free for all" and the rest "no laming". You can imagine why that wouldn't work: there is the problem of things spilling over the border or new players not understanding what is done where. But worse, suggestions like that show total lack of understanding of "real FFA". You can't confine it to one little area of a map, it takes away the movement and tactics that are part of real FFA.

It's like going to a football field and saying "football players, play only between the 20 and 40 yard lines over there. We're going to stand around and have a "whine"-and-cheese party and play badminton and croquet over here. And if someone goes for the ball and collides with someone chatting and sipping wine, we're going to amsleep-amslay-ampunish your sorry butt to teach you not to lame like a f*****g noob". Imagine how much fun it would be to try and play football under such ridiculous restrictions. Any self-respecting athlete would say "the hell with this, let's go shoot some hoops" (i.e. leave the game for good to play UT2004, Call of Duty, Far Cry, DOOM 3, Battlefront, etc. etc.).

So what do you end up left with? The wine-sipping, chatting, badminton and croquet players. Repeat this scenario over and over again and they become the "majority" in the game.

Now imagine some new kids with brand new footballs wander over to the football field. They are excited, because they had previously only played in their backyards (i.e. single-player game), but now they get to play on a real field (i.e. Internet game server). They see some people on the field and try to get a game going, throwing passes and trying to play with the people standing around on the field, playing like they did at home (i.e. single-player game). The next thing they know they are slammed to the ground by an invisible hand and can't move. One of the wine-sipping croquet players comes over and says "stop laming you f*****g noobs! Didn't you see that my badminton racquet was down! Playing football isn't allowed here! Can't you see we're playing croquet and badminton?!?!? F*****g noobs!" The new kids leave, but every football field they go to has the same rules and wine-sipping croquet and badminton players. Eager to fit in, they start sipping "whine", and playing croquet and badminton on the football field like "everyone else". The aren't experienced enough to realize it is total BS, so they join the "majority" of croquet and badminton players.

But they get bored of that, so they start spawning Rancors and Jawas and Wampas to relieve their boredom, but that's another story.

Anyway kids, that is the story of what happened to the great series of Jedi Knight games that began with Dark Forces, Kyle Katarn, and his guns (and no lightsaber), and ended with no guns, no Force, saber-dueling only amabusing "honor servers".

The End.

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Old 10-22-2004, 06:28 PM   #34
The Saxman
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I didn't mean different areas of the same playing game (i.e. MAP). I meant different areas to GO TO for different games. Like i've said three times now ( ), I've never played on the internet, so I'm not quite sure how "servers" work.

I can see your point, though. That's what I said in my earlier post, that people wouldn't want to do something like that, so it wouldn't work. It was just a nice idea, even if it is a little unrealistic.
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