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View Poll Results: Would you join the Code?
Yes, good ideas! 185 52.71%
No, I won't, but I will play nice to SCers. 62 17.66%
No, this is really stupid, and i'm gonna kill everyone following this code. 104 29.63%
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Thread: The Saberist Code: One Step Ahead - READ
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Old 04-13-2002, 11:48 AM   #1
Soul-Burn
 
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Post The Saberist Code: One Step Ahead - READ

After reading threads about the "code of honor" etc, I would like to take this one step further. Read on:

The Saberist Code is here to create a better community of JK2 players, to enhance the fun and increase the level of players. You may or may not agree with these concepts, but if you do, it's appreciated.

The code, as I see it, consists of these ideas:

1. A player agreeing to the code won't attack a person with a closed saber on purpose, won't attack a person who symbols for non-agression. This talks only about "ON PURPOSE". If you attack someone and they closed the saber while you attacked, it's not your fault.

2. A person who doesn't want to fight will close his saber and stay out of fighting zones.

3. A person looking for a duel, will also close his saber. The difference is, that if person challages you, you may look left-right, as in No, to show you are only spectating.

4. Definition of "duel":
A duel is when 2 or 3 players agree that they want to fight, one vs one and attack eachother and eachother only. Either they are in game "duel mode" or simply fighting only themselves.

5. A person will never interrupt a duel.

6. Definition of "lamer"/"against the code":
Anyone who doesn't act by the concepts above OR abuses them. That means, you may not attack someone and then when they retaliate, you close the saber and call them lame. This is very bad.

7. Shall a group of people going by the code are in a certain place, with their sabers closed, or when dueling. If a "lamer" comes and attacks the duelers or the closed saber person, they should note it and all together or one-by-one kill him or atleast make him leave. This concept is very important since it's the only way to fight "lamers". This also includes weapon servers. If a "lamer" attacks 2 duelers, you (the duel spectator) should kill him in any means.

8. Also, should a vote be cast against a certain lamer, all players in the code should vote.

9. A person with his saber open, not attacking, should be regarded as one looking for a duel, therefore, you may not attack them until you both agree you want to fight, either by taunting or showing an agressive move.

10. These ideas apply only when the number of followers of the code exceeds the number of lamers/unlightened people on the server. This is since you can't force the code on anyone. Although in maps like ffa_bespin, the duelers can go to the ring and the rules will apply only there as this is the best dueling spot in the map.

11. Anyone who hasn't been marked as a lamer should be regarded as neutral.

12. If you follow the code and want to note it to the server, place the tag SC in the end of your nickname. For example: Soul-Burn -SC-
Note that this only shows you ARE following the code. Should a person hold the tag without following the code, he should be noted and dealt with. Anyone who doesn't have SC will be regarded as neutral.

This is my idealogy. Any comments are welcome.
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Old 04-13-2002, 11:59 AM   #2
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Quote:
9. A person with his saber open, not attacking, should be regarded as one looking for a duel, therefore, you may not attack them until you both agree you want to fight, either by taunting or showing an agressive move.


this one i disagree with.. otherwise cool


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Old 04-13-2002, 12:04 PM   #3
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Good Ideas, except for number 9. I think, if someone's saber is on, and they aren't in the middle of a duel, they are fair game.



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Old 04-13-2002, 12:19 PM   #4
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ok and this code is enforceable how?


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Old 04-13-2002, 12:24 PM   #5
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I like these ideas, good job bringing them to our attention. I'll excercise the code also.
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:25 PM   #6
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The concept behind number 9 is that a person that doesn't read the forum/is new but wanna learn and play well, will be regarded as ok... tho if he acts like a follower of the code, people should tell him that he should close his saber in those cases.

This code is enforcable by the people that follow it and when their number is bigger than the number of lamers, they act as written. Someone comes and lames, they kill him.

And on some servers, the normal game is with a code like this. Unwritten.

I've heard ppl play like this on Ausgamers, and I played like this on "very.undone" UK server. I don't live there, and I get lousy pings (150+) but the ppl there usually play nicely.
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:25 PM   #7
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enforceable?

Only by the will and act of the -SC- community itself. If enough people join, it would become a movement to be reckonded with.

Let's try it. I'm no idealist, and I maybe it won't work - but if everyone doesn't even try it in the first place it won't work for SURE.

Just like the recycling movement - if everyone said "I'm just a single human, how could I make a difference?" then it's true, he WON'T ever make a difference.

So come on people, join and see what becomes of it.

Digital_Ronin -SC-

Last edited by Digital_Ronin; 04-13-2002 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:29 PM   #8
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cool.. i'm in for it.. let's go on a server now using this tag.. let the word spread.. we'll be like an unoficial clan or something..




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Old 04-13-2002, 12:30 PM   #9
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..also, keep bumping this :-)


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Old 04-13-2002, 12:36 PM   #10
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Note, it's not like a clan. It's like a way of playing...

If any of you used to play Team Fortress Classic, you've heard of -TPF-. That's a tag players put to show they think Team Play First. Therefore, don't care about personal score but for team advantage like the game should be.

This is here to play sabers like supposed to (I think), dueling and honor.
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:41 PM   #11
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Heh, umm.... *whistles*

Shuri -SC-
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Old 04-13-2002, 12:44 PM   #12
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also.. the -SC- tag looks kinda cool

Wasp -SC-


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Old 04-13-2002, 12:54 PM   #13
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I used to not attack people with their sabers down.

Then I ran into people who would wait till you ran by them and throw it at your back. Or people that push you down if you get to close to them.

I attack anyone now. If I give them a couple whacks and they don't fight back I usually leave them alone.

I will follow no code.
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Old 04-13-2002, 01:49 PM   #14
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I like your ideas here. I think the beauty of what you propose is that it covers all the key things that people who want to follow a code require (sabres down, duelling rules, etc) and doesn't even touch the more controversial 'tactics' (sabre throwing, grip-drain, bowing, etc).

Not sure if I'd sign - I certainly already abide by most of what you say, although I probably only actively pursue and kill the 'lamers' you describe about half the time - the other half I just avoid and ignore them as much as possible.

Overall - an attempt to impose ethical behaviour in a public setting? Hmmm, interesting philosophical question. Given how unlikley it is for all players to even know about this, let alone agree and sign on, I can't see how widespread you could make it. I guess this is where your rule 10 comes into play. (BTW - I wonder what proportion of people who play online follow or read anything of forums like this and know the debates, codes etc? Any rough ideas anyone?)

I guess the base question is, on a public server, if everyone has equal 'rights', can anyone (even a 'moral majority') impose a code of ethics, to the point of kicking people who interefere with it?


Please excuse my little philosophical indulgence here - I apologise if you think this is just meaningless talk. Overall, I like your ideas but I can't see this working on public servers in general. I think if you want this - have servers that are set up with this specifically in mind, for example - in the text about the server that you see when joining, emphasise duels and sabres down=peace. I understand some servers already do this.

However, I don't think the full force of this code (my main objection is Rule 8 - kicking people who don't follow it) can be enforced on any and every public server, even when dominated by people who do follow the code. I'll follow the intention of it, but I couldn't 'sign' it.
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Old 04-13-2002, 01:51 PM   #15
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Clarification

Sorry - just to clarify:

I like what you're aiming at doing, but I remain to be convinced to 'sign on'. Not saying I'll never sign on, but I'm not convinced as yet.
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:17 PM   #16
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@soul-burn :

I just sent you a link via private message. Just posting this because I forget to check my inbox most of the time, too.
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:18 PM   #17
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The kicking part can only work if 80% of the people want that person out, regardless of the code.

I'm pretty sure -TPF- in TFC started like this...

Also, as I noted, usually in evenings, it's pretty dominated by "code followers" in this server: very.undone UK JK2 Server - Saber Only | 62.3.90.1:28070.

Even before this "code" ever came up.
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:18 PM   #18
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I like the idea, but, cynical as I am, can see no way you can ever get this to take hold.

There is a HORDE of people out there playing multiplayer games who have but one of two goals. Either :

1) To WIN at any cost, no matter what.
2) To RUIN everybody else's fun, because that's what gets them off.


Number 1 is bad enough, although to be fair you cannot really have anything against it, some people are so competitive that they just HAVE to win, others are sore losers. They'll never agree to your code, because if you stand somewhere with your saber closed, they figure you are an easy kill, and will alt repeater you.

Number 2 will do anything and everything to make sure that when you and others try to play by your code, or try to enforce it, it will screw up. These are the same people that enjoy newbie killing in MMORPG's, that cheat in any and all game they can, and that type 0\/\/N3D! when they score a lucky hit with a rocket launcher firing blindly into an alley somewhere.

Since number 1 is about 20%? and number 2 about 60%? of the online population, I think there is a very small chance of ever getting this to work.

Still, the idea is solid. Perhaps some server admins can set up servers that abide by this code. Don't follow it and you're out. On just any old public server, I don't see it happening

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Old 04-13-2002, 02:26 PM   #19
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that's why lately I play in NF/NW (No Force / No Weapon) servers...

When there are these lamers that try to kill u when the saber is off, it's not a big problem cuz they simply suck and are easy targets themselves.
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:35 PM   #20
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I will definetly follow this code, I did the same thing with Rune, and the same thing with TFC, very good ideas.
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:45 PM   #21
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uh online games


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Old 04-13-2002, 02:55 PM   #22
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This is silly.

Fantasizing your own set of rules for Internet deathmatches is a recipe for dissappointment. Even if it works, you will merely succeed in creating an elitist clique. These rules have been created for Quake, Quake2, Hexen2, Drakan, Unreal, UT and Heretic2, just to name a few. It has always divided the community, never united it.

If you want to create game rules, that's great. Make a mod. Otherwise it's an utter waste of time.
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Old 04-13-2002, 03:36 PM   #23
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so.. all you yes voters agree on putting the -SC- tag in your name?


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Old 04-13-2002, 03:44 PM   #24
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The Saber code!

It works !!

After reading this msg I Went online and put -SC- into my name..
the first game I see.. I meet a -SC-

It felt really good.. knowing a little what kind of person the opponent was..

So the rest fragged it out in the streets and we dueled on the platform.

GO -SC-


Nemo me impune lacessit
-Nobody injures me without punishment!
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Old 04-13-2002, 03:54 PM   #25
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Same goes for me, although it was the second server I chose.
This might actually grow quite fast.

Digital_Ronin -SC-
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Old 04-13-2002, 04:09 PM   #26
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Mmm, lovely idea (I have a similar idea, which was inspired by the Code of Honour thread)

Just as a little notice to go in this thread, I've taken the following actions:

1) Registered a domain name
2) Started the web design work on a site
3) Writing some documentation for my new project, that revolves around an idea such as this.

In Tribes (in Australia, at least), there was a group called Team Players Guild, which, as the name suggests, they'd do whatever they could to make certain the team won, as their own score was irrelevant. This Guild had IIRC, around 100-150 members, and it was attracting more and more people from the tribes community in AU to join it.

I am proposing a similar thing, which is called the Jedi Duelists Guild. Now, the way I see it, it's like a clan, but not. It doesn't do clan wars. It doesn't interfere with clan stuff at all. It's simply membership into a Guild that is for saber duelists who would like to be in a Guild where they can easily track down people from the Guild who are playing in servers.

Retro/Shuri already knows about it, and he's already been asked to join (which he has). Membership is completely free for the Guild, but being in the Guild will give you some advantages, like access to private forums for guild members only, private resources, and most importantly, tournaments that are available to JDG members only (so who REALLY is the best dueller out of the lot? Thats what we aim to find out! ). We will also have JDG member only servers if we ever get any servers (hopefully we can)

While we would have a Code of Combat and Conduct (the CCC, as it may be), people wouldn't always have to follow the Code, as long as they didn't wear the [JDG] tag while not following the code.

I'm still hammering ideas out, and plodding along on the webpage (sigh, 3 am web dev work, boring!).

Anyone who is interested in this whole Jedi Duelists Guild idea, feel free to email me at the following address:

obi-cyph@ausradar.net. Ausradar.net is NOT the chosen domain name for the site, it's just another domain I happen to have, heh. Or you can private message me


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Old 04-13-2002, 04:13 PM   #27
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hi obi :-)

glad you taught me that 2 jump thing there
very cool indeed

good fights today



ed <aka> Wasp -SC-


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Old 04-13-2002, 04:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by power_ed
hi obi :-)

glad you taught me that 2 jump thing there
very cool indeed

good fights today



ed <aka> Wasp -SC-
Yeah, I liked how you'd killed me at one point, and you were taunting over a body, so I ran over and started taunting, then I realised it was MY body. Taunting your own dead body isn't fun

and yeah, that 2 jump across the massassi temple is fun


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Old 04-13-2002, 04:20 PM   #29
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LOL .. body-taunting..

you'll have to be quick though if you want the person to see it before they spawn.. it's the ultimate taunt


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Old 04-13-2002, 06:14 PM   #30
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You got my vote here.
Whether it's SC or JDG, it's still a code of honor. Just been in very.undone again, and over 60% of the players followed these same guidelines.
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Old 04-13-2002, 06:50 PM   #31
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Ok I am going to let my server run, its small but nice, it is called "-SC- Duels Neutral Force" Voting is alowed so if anyone is out of line you can vote to kick if I am not there.
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Old 04-13-2002, 06:54 PM   #32
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Well i read your code and to be frank i have a few large problems with trying to force players to your way. If you want to create your own -SC- servers and enforce such rules that is all well and good, but you dont have the right to make ppl on standard public servers play your way or no way. As long as they arnt using cheats or officialy recognized exploits they have the right to play how ever they wish (team killing and the like are notable exceptions) as long as the server itself isnt set up with certain rules. Threats of kicking or hunting a player down because they wont use your code and dont have -sc- in their name is childish.

Myself i follow my own rules, i fight with honor and follow the practice you often find on no force no saber duel servers (walking up bowing and starting the fight once my oponent is done bowing). Its cool if ppl follow that code and i will respond in kind, those that dont i find out quickly and am ready for, i am always ready for someone to break that code and if they do break it they usualy gain nothing. For me if they dont want to follow that code its perfectly fine. Perhaps the best advice i can give is tolerance and to be ready for someone to break your code at all times.

In the end tags are nice and all but it wont have an effect on how i treat the person as i always give my opponent the chance to act honorably and base my choices on how they respond. I also wont wear a tag as my actions speak louder then any tag ever could.
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Old 04-13-2002, 07:06 PM   #33
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that guild thing sounds cool


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Old 04-13-2002, 07:26 PM   #34
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The best way to enforce such honor codes is to have your own server where you and other admins can legitimately enforce them with the power of kick/ban.

Outside of that, I have seen something similar to what's being discussed in DoD (Day of Defeat) and I would say it has been mildly successful at promoting solid team play. In that game it is called OwP; ideally, to wear this tag is to further designate yourself a team player who puts the team goals ahead of individual glory.

Those who wish to add the tag to the end of their name do so, those that don't, don't. There isn't a lot of infighting between those with the tag and those without- infact, I would say I've never seen any while playing DoD. The tag has helped in the sense that it's given me comfort upon entering a server and seeing people with the tag, knowing that there were likely players in the game that cared enough about teamplay to go the extra step to promote it in their name. I could usually look forward to a solid team play experience based around myself and these people.

At the very least, when enough people have the tag, people in JO will start asking: "Damn what is that clan they must be huge I see them everywhere." It is then that the honor code can be promoted as it is explained to them what the tag really is. The tag will help proliferation of the honor code, if you start it off correctly.

Your ideology is too complicated to explain to people in-game how to follow. Also, there are too many rules on that list for my taste. I don't want to feel like I've Entered An All-Girls Catholic School Run by Nuns with Hard-Swinging Rulers every time I sport the tag. If you are serious about this catching on you should tone it down and get more public suggestions for it.
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Old 04-13-2002, 07:45 PM   #35
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tone what down?

not killing people w/ no sabs?


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Old 04-13-2002, 08:40 PM   #36
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You cant stop people from cheating and this is supposed to do what? Soon you'll have people using cheats and hacks with this tag cause whos too stop them? Then the saberist code will be dead...you gona make them change it?
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Old 04-13-2002, 09:42 PM   #37
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Look... You say that "THIS SPECIFIC CODE WILL DIE".

I agree. But what do you prefer:

1. People running wildly, backstabbing you while your trying to duel someone, attacking people that are in DUEL mode, not hurting them but really distracting them

2. People that won't back stab you or kill you when you're away or "here to help others".

You say that I want to force my ideas on others by hunting or kicking others. This is not what I said. The idea is that if someone acts badly, usually, most of the people want him out, regardless of these codes.

Also, I never said to HUNT anyone down, but if people are organized and someone (1 person vs 7 who want to play nicely) comes just to ruin the game, they kill him, that's what he wanted after all, isn't it? He is the one who came to kill... so why shouldn't others team up against him?

Quote:
You cant stop people from cheating and this is supposed to do what? Soon you'll have people using cheats and hacks with this tag cause whos too stop them? Then the saberist code will be dead...you gona make them change it?
I never said ANYTHING about cheating. This is about laming.
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Old 04-13-2002, 09:43 PM   #38
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Hi, I'm the guy who started the "code of honor" thread, and I have some serious issues with your idea.

First, I agree with Mr Tim and NeonSamurai, that attempting to enforce a set of rules on others, on a server that you do not control, is a very questionable practice.

Second, rule #1 opens the door for abuse. What if I decide to turn off my saber mid-fight, because I'm low on health. You hit me, and I start crying fowl. The rest of the server didn't see what happened, so now they're assuming that you backstabbed me when I was disarmed, and they're hunting you down.

It's one thing to have a personal set of rules, but to have a public set of rules, that are not enforced in the game, and to try to enforce them on others in a public setting is asking for trouble. Furthermore, things like this stand a huge chance of becoming cliquish, exclusive, and will often end up tied down in beurocracy, as different "members" develop their own ideas of what should, and should not be enforced.

If you want to have a group code of honor, that's fine, but it must be passive. If someone chooses not to follow it on a public server, you'll simply have to except it. You can kill them if they attack you, but don't go calling a kickvote, or a group witch hunt, just because they're not playing the game the way YOU think they should.

The way I figure it should be, is that if two players see the -SC- in their names, they'll realize that they are both using the same code of honor, and will observe it as far as eachother goes. However, they'll also realize that anyone without the -SC- in their name, may not afford the same coutasy, and they simply won't let their guard down around those people, concerning issues not "acceptable" in the SC.

As it is now, I will not inclued -SC- in my name. However, if it is revized, taking the issues I brought up into consideration, I'll take it into reconsideration.

You have to keep in mind that those other, non-SC, players also (hopefully) paid their $50 for the game, the same as the rest of you (hopefully) did.
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Old 04-13-2002, 09:48 PM   #39
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If you want so many @#(* silly rules why don't you make your own game? If the JKII team wanted this, maybe they'd have implemented some of them in some way.

When someone was low on health they could turn their saber off lol...

EDIT: I know something you need to try, a DUELING server. People cannot interfere there.

Another idea for me and all who thought this is stupid, and that was a good %. Put the -SC- tag in your name, then proceed to break every rule in the code as often as possible. Maybe I'll go do that now...


Sig coming soon!
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Old 04-13-2002, 10:32 PM   #40
Yuber
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1
Great idea,
If theres one thing that sets jedi knight apart from other "fps" then its depth and things like this will only increase that.
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