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Old 09-22-2002, 03:13 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
...I'm still a guy who likes having the abilyt to take someone out in two seconds. And while promod does have it, I like having that ability all the time... you know what i'm getting at.
My main concern with saber damages is to make sure that skilled players can dispatch another player quickly, but still avoid the 1-hit kills. I think the backstabs/sweeps are 1 hit kills right now, but they're super hard to land (as they should be).

Quote:

Otherwise, your mod is technically superior. Even with damage at a level that I wish was higher, it is balanced. If you're going to give into the models and stuff, here's a few suggestions, even though I'm completely uninformed in the programming department. If duel sabers, or lightstaffs, or whatever get in, i'm always a pro-high saber damage guy. I am the guy who thinks a lightsaber should hurt as much as that imperial flechette does. Don't reduce the damage...
Don't worry, I'm going to be making the twin saber style a unique stance in and of itself. There'll be no using twin sabers in blue, yellow or red stances--it'll have it's own with unique combat properties that'll make sense.

Quote:

I think your mod is fine, so when I throw out ideas, these are just opinions, etc., not things that promod would need to do in order to get me to play. In terms of blue stance parrying, yellow stance deflecting, red stance "i forget", i can see the animations in there, but I do wish that when these "clashes occur, these annimations would have a little more effect on the players. What I'm saying is, that up really close, the animations for the blocking effects, or should i just say the blocking effects, do work to a degree, hits come through. But in terms of movement, it's like people cna just run around while clashing. I always hated that. If I clash sabers, I think people should be more visibly effected. Player model shouldn't be given so much flexibilyt to move...
I've been thinking about adding some inertia to the swings, but only when two sabers collide. Hitting someone's body with one shouldn't knock them back; it should just cut right through them. Some good suggestions here. I'll keep them in mind.

Quote:

New force power point system. New force powers...
The usefulness of the force powers in combat is really controvercial. My main concern is that when one player faces off with another of equal force rank, they should be able to fight each other to a standstill if both are using just their force powers if both players are of roughly the same skill level.

Yes, there is going to be a new force power in the next beta. It'll be a neutral one.


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Old 09-22-2002, 07:53 PM   #42
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LucasArts should make this mod the next offical patch.
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Old 09-22-2002, 08:49 PM   #43
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Glad you plan on giving the dual sabers and such their own style. That would be a much better way of dealing with it.

I have a whole brim of ideas concerning force powers, I've been 'fighting' for it for a long time. Right now, force powers are there, and in a force on force struggle, things come to a stand still, as they should, but there's no real danger when the force comes into play. Push and pull were 'great' in 1.03. Granted they were slightly too effective, but now they are all but useless. I just put points in it so that I don't have to worry about getting overpowered.

Why not put more of a dangerous emphasis on the force power system? Right now, force powers are more of a flavor of the week that you put in to make lightsaber battles more colorful. It's cool that you can spew lightning every now and then, but on a competitive level, it's more of an annoyance than something dangerous to contend with. If you want to shoot stuff, might as well find a rocket launcher, it'll do a better job.

Why not make the force powers more dynamic. You already mentioned that you wanted to give push and pull a csc valu.e It would nice to actually know when I can knock someone down as opposed to just kind of shoving them away. I never use that power except when a gun is fired or the spirit moves me to do it.

Force lightning. You already decreased the range. While I wouldn't mind giving it a little more damage ability, I'm sure other people would. Well, rather than make it a gun, why not give it status effect abilities? Let it put the opponents player model into different animations, like blocking animations. Let it have a kind of stunning effect. Yes, grip already stuns a person, but that's a different move altogether. Lightning is a novelty in a competitive multiplayer game. It does damage, but only the slow or badly injured ever truly incorporate lightning as a potential danger.

Force drain. Again, it works well in saber battles, but once I pull out the rocket launcher, are you so excited to use drain on me? It works in a saber battle because it'll heal you really fast, and you can block the other saber attacks. With a rocket launcher, getting close to drain is like suicide. I guess this is a phenomenon that can't be adjusted. One thing I did notice though is that using drain doesn't effect a persons ability to move, or even really block. It would be nice if using drain had more of a risk behind besides getting close.

Dark rage. this power has more effect on making you a great gunner when combined with speed, but otherwise it's just a huge invincibility rush. People see it and they just kind of run because you can't really stop it. It would be nice to be able to push these individuals. Why not remove this common "let's turn rage on and burn out everyone with my gun" and give it a kind of csc modifier. This way you can either go all out with your guns (which is still think is the silliest and dumbest aspect of the game, although I deal with it and realize it is not 'cheap'), or change your saber style. Right now, you get faster swings, and your csc naturally goes higher becuase you move faster. But why not have it as a constant bonus. You also get a constant penalty on your defense. A lot of ragers have been able to turn on rage, and be invincible to saber swings. It's hard to get a hit in. Why not give them a penalty that effectively removes their defense. Also, if you can mkae the parries, the defelcts, and the blocing a more prominent feature, you could give the dark rager the ability to knock people around.

I know this all sounds juvenile and simplistic, because I'm too lazy to check my typing and make it all sound. But what I'm saying is why not make dark rage and protect more of a csc modifier instead of just what they are. Right now, rage is used becaue no one can touch you, which is slightly ridiculous. Protect, well, it's just kind of defunct. It's useable, but not that able. Rage and protect would have an offensive and defensive effect respectively, rather than "i rush down" or "i try to take less damage". Rage would have the offesnive bonus, if someone keeps range and blocks you, you'd be able to effectively swat them around. Open them up, and make sardines. Protect, rather than giving them this uber blocking ability, just give them a slight csc bonus. Like +1 or +2 if you're feeling generous. But unlike rage, that relies on overpowering and shoving the opponent around, protect will allow you to redirect attacks more effectively. It would be a counter system rather than offense.

These are just rough ideas. The protect idea may just be a bummer. Heck, most people may feel the rage thing is useless too.

I still think protect needs something innovative done with it. Reducing 80% damage or whatever is really more of an annoyance to saberist than an effective weapon in a diverse multiplayer game.

Primarily, I really think the blocking, deflecting, parrying, knockaway system should have a more prominent effect on player models. Whe n a person even just blocks saber attacks, the defenders model should be force to react, to kind of slow down, assume postiions that will hold him in place. This will prevent the ever rampant " walk backwards, sidestep, run away all day" stradegy. It's a stradegy, yes, but it would be nicer if the offensive and defesnive attacks actually effected how players moved. So, if a person is just blocking, he starts to slow down, his movement becomes restricted, forcing him to rely heavily on a good csc aim. If he gets knocked away, it should be a more prominent effect. It would shove your player model about in directions the player would rather not go, and even knock his cross hairs about. This would add to the ferver. Usually, if you already have a good red lock, you'll block rather easily. However, the attacker also doesn't reallly experience any effect unless he mindless drives fowards and literally 'humps' the opponent. Most hits come from well time shots at open spots. But if successful overpowers or parries could knock player models around, it could add a whole kind of 'effective block - creates good opening.

Switching stances for different blocking effects would also show then. Light stance would be easiest to use. It already has a natural blocking bonus. A good parry would force a model foward-left, foward-right. The block would not stop the attackers momentum, but actually drive them past you. Yellow deflects. It would knock a player from left to right, keeping them in front of you. REd stance would be the knock away. It would knock you back. It would be nice if it were possible that a good red block, or even a really good red strike that is blocked, would actually result in a knock back or even a knock down. Hence red stance wouldn't just be the guard breaker, but when faced successfully head on, it's possible to knock down.

Just a few random ideas. I should probably stop and just let you do your thing.
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Old 09-23-2002, 10:12 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
Glad you plan on giving the dual sabers and such their own style. That would be a much better way of dealing with it.


I'll be using Desann's style and possibly tavion's style animations for the twin sabers. Unfortunately, there's no good way of doing new animations yet, so I'm forced to use animations that are already in the game.

Quote:

I have a whole brim of ideas concerning force powers, I've been 'fighting' for it for a long time. Right now, force powers are there, and in a force on force struggle, things come to a stand still, as they should, but there's no real danger when the force comes into play. Push and pull were 'great' in 1.03. Granted they were slightly too effective, but now they are all but useless. I just put points in it so that I don't have to worry about getting overpowered.
Push and Pull are currently used more for tactical positioning than getting kills via knockdowns. They are both already linked to the CSC by giving a harder Push or Pull to a target that is close to the crosshair. In cases where one player has a higher level of push or pull, then that can result in a knockdown. One thing I do plan on implementing is that if you get Pushed/Pulled from almost directly behind at close range, then that will knock you down.

Quote:

Why not put more of a dangerous emphasis on the force power system? Right now, force powers are more of a flavor of the week that you put in to make lightsaber battles more colorful. It's cool that you can spew lightning every now and then, but on a competitive level, it's more of an annoyance than something dangerous to contend with. If you want to shoot stuff, might as well find a rocket launcher, it'll do a better job.
Saber+force vs. Guns+force balance is coming in Beta 3. (no, i'm not going to nerf anything.)

Quote:

Why not make the force powers more dynamic. You already mentioned that you wanted to give push and pull a csc valu.e It would nice to actually know when I can knock someone down as opposed to just kind of shoving them away. I never use that power except when a gun is fired or the spirit moves me to do it.
See the above comments on Push/Pull.

Quote:

Force lightning. You already decreased the range. While I wouldn't mind giving it a little more damage ability, I'm sure other people would. Well, rather than make it a gun, why not give it status effect abilities? Let it put the opponents player model into different animations, like blocking animations. Let it have a kind of stunning effect. Yes, grip already stuns a person, but that's a different move altogether. Lightning is a novelty in a competitive multiplayer game. It does damage, but only the slow or badly injured ever truly incorporate lightning as a potential danger.
Maybe when lightning is used by itself, but when it's coupled with other powers, lightning is one of the best powers in the game. I love to wait until over-eager saber throwers waste all their force. I then drain them all the way down and lightning the crap out of them. That usually leaves them with next to no health and an empty force pool.

Quote:

Force drain. Again, it works well in saber battles, but once I pull out the rocket launcher, are you so excited to use drain on me? It works in a saber battle because it'll heal you really fast, and you can block the other saber attacks. With a rocket launcher, getting close to drain is like suicide. I guess this is a phenomenon that can't be adjusted. One thing I did notice though is that using drain doesn't effect a persons ability to move, or even really block. It would be nice if using drain had more of a risk behind besides getting close.
Drain is the centerpiece of the Dark Side powers. I've hand the lion's share of players telling me that Drain's current settings are spot on (9 out of 10 players or so).

Quote:

Dark rage. this power has more effect on making you a great gunner when combined with speed, but otherwise it's just a huge invincibility rush. People see it and they just kind of run because you can't really stop it. It would be nice to be able to push these individuals. Why not remove this common "let's turn rage on and burn out everyone with my gun" and give it a kind of csc modifier. This way you can either go all out with your guns (which is still think is the silliest and dumbest aspect of the game, although I deal with it and realize it is not 'cheap'), or change your saber style. Right now, you get faster swings, and your csc naturally goes higher becuase you move faster. But why not have it as a constant bonus. You also get a constant penalty on your defense. A lot of ragers have been able to turn on rage, and be invincible to saber swings. It's hard to get a hit in. Why not give them a penalty that effectively removes their defense. Also, if you can mkae the parries, the defelcts, and the blocing a more prominent feature, you could give the dark rager the ability to knock people around.

...

These are just rough ideas. The protect idea may just be a bummer. Heck, most people may feel the rage thing is useless too.
I'm planning on giving Dark Ragers a CSC penalty during the "cool-down" phase of Rage. It doesn't make sense that they should be able to defend and attack just as well as a fresh player during that period.

I'm also confused as to why Dark Rage would increase your firing rate with a mechanical weapon like a rocket launcher. Being "sped up" and pulling your trigger finger faster than normal shouldn't affect the reloading rate on a machine like that. There's probably some habitual Speed/Ragers out there saying, "Nooooo!!" right now.

Quote:

I still think protect needs something innovative done with it. Reducing 80% damage or whatever is really more of an annoyance to saberist than an effective weapon in a diverse multiplayer game.

Primarily, I really think the blocking, deflecting, parrying, knockaway system should have a more prominent effect on player models. ... if successful overpowers or parries could knock player models around, it could add a whole kind of 'effective block - creates good opening.
Though it's not exactly what you're mentioning here, I'm already working with something similar. The trick is to implement this without severely altering how the combat is currently working.


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Old 09-23-2002, 11:15 AM   #45
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Are you refering to the special blocking bug or the other spining dfa, (Which i made a video of ) [/B]
I am speaking of the need, the call, the urge, the yearning, and the absolute withdrawel I have for a DFA that is not so easily dodged.

ProMod makes the DFA and all special moves easy to block, so I can't understand why we still need them to be nuetered. THis is the same mistake Raven made, they fixed the problem but then went too far with it.

For example - if pull and kicking don't knock you down, why can't we do a spinning backstab? Ass Fighting can't be spammed because the blocking system + the damage scale would mean that approach would be certain death. Yet you people still don't want it to spin. Why?


1.02 was the best saber fighting, I have done two polls and the majority agreed. However 1.02 had no defense, so to me the answer is clear. ProMod is the only skilled defensive scheme I have seen in JKII, 1.02 is the best offensive scheme, combine them and you have an awesome Mod.

See I was led to believe that the "Pro" in ProMod meant it was for above average players. Yet all I see is worries of spammers and the same stupid comments that messed this game up in the first place.

THE STRONGEST OFFENSE = 1.02
THE WEAKEST OFFENSE = 1.04

WEAK and PRO don't mix.


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Old 09-23-2002, 12:59 PM   #46
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fatal, start a poll thread on whether or not people want a spinning dfa back in the game. we'll see how much support it gets, then I'll see what I can do.


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Old 09-23-2002, 01:20 PM   #47
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Originally posted by ArtifeX
fatal, start a poll thread on whether or not people want a spinning dfa back in the game. we'll see how much support it gets, then I'll see what I can do.
What I am not enough?! Are you mad....oh yeah thats right its just me

I shall do as you ask but I want more then just a Spinning DFA!!


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Old 09-23-2002, 01:32 PM   #48
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Originally posted by FatalStrike


What I am not enough?! Are you mad....oh yeah thats right its just me

I shall do as you ask but I want more then just a Spinning DFA!!
Well, post something about them as well, but keep the poll focused on the dfa.


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Old 09-23-2002, 02:09 PM   #49
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Originally posted by ArtifeX


Well, post something about them as well, but keep the poll focused on the dfa.
Actually I posted a long winded discussion of making the entire offense more 1.02 like. I will keep it peaceful and just want to see what people think of un-nerfing things.

I will make the poll you want soon but I first wish to have a chance to plant the seed.


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Old 09-26-2002, 06:29 AM   #50
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Hello Artifex, ( sorry for my english, i'm italian )

I'm an Italian guy from NGI community ( WCG related : world cyber games ) and me and other guys are organizing a huge ladder\tournaments for JK2, i'm really interested in your mod, just i would like to suggest u some good way to make a good duel with FORCE and NO FORCE balanced.

Just PROMOD is EXCELLENT, congratulation for the work , what we tried is to let a Force duel be more related to sabers than to "i run away, i lightning u, i run away, i lightnin u".

Just we reduced force regen time to 800 ( 4 times slower ) and it means that if u start a force power, u should think before doing it, couse if u miss, u'll LOOSE power and u'll have disvantage, and just this time u dont run everytime just hitting from far away, couse u dont have any force to run.
( bust this is just a server setting, u dont need to put it in the mod eheh )

What i would like to ask u is.

It's not everytime True that a GUNNER is able to kill a JEDI everytime, couse if u play with ladder rules, a GUNNER cant use force as far a jedi CANT use weapons.

It means a gunner goes disarmed in 5 seconds and then killed everytime, and the only weapons can use against a Jedi are, PHYSICAL impact weapons, couse all energy bolt are deflected too easy!

So, could u add the possibility to let Guns deflection depending from CSC? or maybe to get a disvantage maybe if i'm RUNNING to u while deflecting? just to put also normal weapons usefull vs a JEDI, it's too easy that a jedi can defleact lasers and blasters evrytime from Everypositions! it fore these waepons to be useless!

Then ok with the idea to increase damage vs not-saber users.

Would u be able to add the JETPACK ability in the game? just to recreate JANGO FETT - OBIWAN duels! Jatpack it's extremely cool and it can be easly balanced for Tournament leagues.

the idea to be able to PUSH saber throw is really good!

maybe u can add also physical attack like Punchs, with additional keys and low damage, they can stun for 1/3 second the enemy or something like that , it's just an idea!


--------

Just the main part of the discussion is to complete your excellent work on saber balance , and allow GUNS to be balanced with SABER.. not only in damage.. but also in STRATEGY.

Add Jetpack , twin saber and double saber and u'll have the NEW JEDI KNIGHT!


--------

Artifex, last thing, we are organizing this ladder and if u can contact me directly i'll be glad

My icq is : 35433605

Thanks
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Old 09-29-2002, 04:07 PM   #51
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I'm actually working on something quite similar to what you're talking about. It will once and for all balance gunners and saberists so that battles between the two will become enjoyable for both sides.

I've sent you an ICQ recently. You can grab my ICQ from that message, or contact me at arsartifex@msn.com


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Old 10-01-2002, 04:44 AM   #52
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Saber throw in Beta 3

Here's to hoping that some sort of saber throw balance will be included in the next version of Promod.

I know you've posted before about adding the ability to force push sabers out of the air and that's an interesting idea. However, I don't think we need to look any farther than the Single Player version for a solution to saber throw spamming: Blocking a thrown saber should knock the saber to the ground. This leaves the person who threw it very open and coupled with the added damage to persons not wielding a saber I think it balances saber throw nicely.

But mainly my point is that I hope some form of saber throw balancing gets added to the next promod update.

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Old 10-01-2002, 05:37 AM   #53
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Wow, this ProMod is actually alot better than it's predecessor "Jedi Mod"

Great work, keep the ideas running


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Old 10-01-2002, 09:31 AM   #54
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CoreyGH:
yes, there's going to be several changes to the gameplay in beta 3 that will make people think very carefully before using saber throw.

AB_Legion:
glad you like it!


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Old 10-01-2002, 11:57 AM   #55
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Originally posted by ArtifeX

One thing I'll be doing for sure is giving the double saber style a heavy penalty to resisting a Defense Breaker, and low damage. My reasoning: you're using the sabers one-handed. Imagine trying to hit a baseball while holding the bat with only one hand.
Think about the fact that crossing twin blades (ie gives you an X) gives you a very powerful defence, twin-style is weak against powerful attacks if there is no warning, but if a Defense Breaker is a massive release of energy any sword fighter would read the body language a mile off giving them ample time to defend.
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Old 10-01-2002, 03:40 PM   #56
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Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ


Think about the fact that crossing twin blades (ie gives you an X) gives you a very powerful defence, twin-style is weak against powerful attacks if there is no warning, but if a Defense Breaker is a massive release of energy any sword fighter would read the body language a mile off giving them ample time to defend.
An x is weak against a two hand strike. If you are holding a saber in each hand then you entire blocking strength is in your wrists. A two hands on the hilt strike however has your arms strength and weight in it (if its a heavy stike).

Wrists against upper bosy strength and weight? you be the judge.

An x should be better at blocking weapons fire, but should leave you vulnerable to being overpowered

This is all just my opinion by the way, I am open to argument on this.


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Old 10-01-2002, 06:43 PM   #57
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First off, I am excited to hear that something like dual sabers, or even a 'lightstaff' get added into the game. I'm guessing he's only planning on dual sabers, and not Maul's weapon as well.

Regardless, I want these things just to add variety, and also because it will give me more joy when I use my NORMAL LIGHTSABER TO KILL THE FRESH DESIGNS OFF.

In terms of dual sabers, I also agree that it should not have an uber blocking ability. Blocking with two sabers is not more beneficial in the strength department. Creating an X is not going to create a really strong block. You can do some clever things with an X, but unless it is both of your arms in an X, I'm afraid most of the force will be going against your wrists. I could be wrong though.

Either way, I feel that the other two lightsaber designs should focus on completely different styles of fighting. There is an exceptional JK1 mod called Saber Battle X that took the old and decrepit JK1 engine and breathed new life into it. Of course, the game is still old and decrepit, hit detection sucks on that engine, etc. etc. But it did have a lightstaff and a lightsaber. No dual sabers though. Regardless, it was unfortunate that the lightstaff, with all of its smooth new animations (yeah, it is much easier to get animations going with JK1 now than it is to even think about JK2), it played more like a more powerful version of the lightsaber.

Firstly, I don't think dual sabers should be weak. Why? Well, here's the answer. why use something that gives me twice the offense, but does damage that would probably only do as much or a little more damage than blue stance (SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE, INCREASE POWER OF THE BLUE STANCE NEXT VERSION). Blue stance will do just fine, thank you. I would like it if it did as much damage as yellow stance. The clincher would be this. You can be on the offense a lot because with both sabers you've got twice as many swings out there at the same time, and if i'm not mistaken, Artifex is using one of those one armed stances from Tavion or whatever to do the job, so it'll still be pretty fast. Also, with the threat of doing the same damage as yellow, only twice as fast, people will have an incentive not to simply start swinging and clashing with someone that has two sabers. But as the trade off for having this great offensive advantage, there should be a significant defense penalty. Not because the guy doesn't know how to block well, but because they should be able to be overpowered.

What I don't want is a dual saber stance that does blue stance damage, only now it swings even faster (oh how useless, and if someone says it's not useless, then fine, how boring and unimaginative). This would be akin to just adding some cosmetics in the game rather than add a different and threatening style of play. It will also bring a ridiculous look to the game. Now you'll have one guy with two sabers mashing the buttons ferociously, and the other player, with lightsaber, knows that his yellow stance does more damage, so now we'll just see one guy with one saber swinging madly, killing the other guy with two sabers swinging madly. It'll just look silly. This dual saber thing should have the ability to out do other stances in the offensive advantage department. Not in terms of guard breaking, that's red stance, but in terms of who can put painful swings out. Another blue stance style would just mean another counter attack style, and we don't need that.

I'm guessing no lightstaff will be brought in because there's no way of implementing that without it looking silly or chaotic.

It would be great if that stance brought on a feel similar to Episode 2. Anakin has the offensive advantage, and Dooku is forced to defend himself, but at just the right moment, and one well placed swing, he eliminates Anakins offensive power, nearly finishing the battle altogether.
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Old 10-01-2002, 07:14 PM   #58
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A few things about Promod real quick

1. While using lightning you should be completely open to attacks except for maybe guns. This would help cut down on people running around with their fingers on the lightning button.

2. DFA is fine just the way it is as long as it remains unblockable.

3. Is the dualsaber going to be easier kill somebody with because on the servers with dual blade enabled all you have to do is lunge of run around with speed in blue. If anything the dual blade should be harder to use but very deadly in the hands of an experienced player.

Thats it. Promod rules.
Kick is beautiful(in promod).


Technology doesn't get better, it only gets smaller.

You are so off my buddy list.
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Old 10-01-2002, 08:04 PM   #59
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3. Agreed, read Salvatore books.
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Old 10-01-2002, 08:13 PM   #60
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Can we just use: Lightsaber, Lightstaff and Dual-Sabers

Its getting hard to keep track of what people are talking about.

Watch Episode 1, when fighting 1vs1 Maul used only one blade, he needed the enhanced agility of a sword. Later when fighting two Jedi he switched to the staff, the lightstaff was a defensive weapon not an offensive one, sure potentially you can attack faster, but your choice of moves is limited.

Lightstaff should be the ultimate defensive weapon, however lethal attacks if the enemy's defense is downright poor

Lightsaber stances should be medium defense and attack with minor variations based on personal taste rather than a rock-paper-scissors system (ie to give fighters some character)

Dual-Sabers should have the fastest and most vicious offense at a defensive penalty, but still be able to defend against power attacks if your circumstances are right

I feel this gives each weapon their advantage but they can "borrow" the offensive/defensive advantages of the other weapons if the situation is right.
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Old 10-02-2002, 02:02 AM   #61
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i agree with DeTRiTiC-iQ, using the light staff and dual sabres would gain attack/defence (lightstaff : defence ; dualsabres : offence) bonuses outside the conceivable range by using just 1 sabre. However, it should have severe penalties in defence/offence( the opposite ).

Also, perhaps a well timed accurate shot (large difference in csc values) will result in a dualsaberist loosing one of his/her sabres( think anakin ep2).
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Old 10-02-2002, 08:41 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ


Think about the fact that crossing twin blades (ie gives you an X) gives you a very powerful defence, twin-style is weak against powerful attacks if there is no warning, but if a Defense Breaker is a massive release of energy any sword fighter would read the body language a mile off giving them ample time to defend.
I agree that two sabers can increase the likelyhood of blocking an attack, but that same block, crossed sabers or not, will still be weakened due to the fact that you're holding each saber with only one hand. It's all in the leverage.

Take the baseball and bat metaphor again: If you wanted to bunt the ball, which would be more effective, holding the bat in front of the ball with two widely-spaced hands, or with each hand holding a different bat and crossing them in front of the ball?

Also, there's unfortunately no "X" defense animation in the game. Since the animation tools were never released, all of us mod makers have to use only what's already in the game.


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Old 10-02-2002, 08:58 AM   #63
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Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
First off, I am excited to hear that something like dual sabers, or even a 'lightstaff' get added into the game. I'm guessing he's only planning on dual sabers, and not Maul's weapon as well.

Regardless, I want these things just to add variety, and also because it will give me more joy when I use my NORMAL LIGHTSABER TO KILL THE FRESH DESIGNS OFF.


Yes, when twin blades are implemented, that style will not be uber. It will be another fighting technique with its own strengths and weaknesses. *cough*style trump system*cough*

I'll probably implement Maul's saber as well, since it's in the code already anyway, but I really hate the super-hacked nature of it. Sticking yourself through the chest with the blade during a swing looks pretty silly.

Quote:

...

Firstly, I don't think dual sabers should be weak. Why? Well, here's the answer. why use something that gives me twice the offense, but does damage that would probably only do as much or a little more damage than blue stance (SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE, INCREASE POWER OF THE BLUE STANCE NEXT VERSION). Blue stance will do just fine, thank you. I would like it if it did as much damage as yellow stance. The clincher would be this. You can be on the offense a lot because with both sabers you've got twice as many swings out there at the same time, and if i'm not mistaken, Artifex is using one of those one armed stances from Tavion or whatever to do the job, so it'll still be pretty fast. Also, with the threat of doing the same damage as yellow, only twice as fast, people will have an incentive not to simply start swinging and clashing with someone that has two sabers. But as the trade off for having this great offensive advantage, there should be a significant defense penalty. Not because the guy doesn't know how to block well, but because they should be able to be overpowered.


I'll probably slow down tavion's style a bit. It's ludicrously fast right now.

Twin sabers won't really need an offense bonus--it'll have the innate bonus of hitting twice as many times. It'll have a penalty to having its defense broken. Haven't decided on how much damage it'll do yet.

Quote:

What I don't want is a dual saber stance that does blue stance damage, only now it swings even faster (oh how useless, and if someone says it's not useless, then fine, how boring and unimaginative). This would be akin to just adding some cosmetics in the game rather than add a different and threatening style of play. It will also bring a ridiculous look to the game. Now you'll have one guy with two sabers mashing the buttons ferociously, and the other player, with lightsaber, knows that his yellow stance does more damage, so now we'll just see one guy with one saber swinging madly, killing the other guy with two sabers swinging madly. It'll just look silly. This dual saber thing should have the ability to out do other stances in the offensive advantage department. Not in terms of guard breaking, that's red stance, but in terms of who can put painful swings out. Another blue stance style would just mean another counter attack style, and we don't need that.


I'm looking at some different angles on making twin sabers a really unique feeling style.

Quote:

I'm guessing no lightstaff will be brought in because there's no way of implementing that without it looking silly or chaotic.


No plans for a lightstaff.


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Old 10-02-2002, 09:00 AM   #64
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Originally posted by Haemon
A few things about Promod real quick

1. While using lightning you should be completely open to attacks except for maybe guns. This would help cut down on people running around with their fingers on the lightning button.

2. DFA is fine just the way it is as long as it remains unblockable.

3. Is the dualsaber going to be easier kill somebody with because on the servers with dual blade enabled all you have to do is lunge of run around with speed in blue. If anything the dual blade should be harder to use but very deadly in the hands of an experienced player.

Thats it. Promod rules.
Kick is beautiful(in promod).
1. That's on my list.

2. Ah, the DFA debate continues...

3. I'm going to try very hard to make twin sabers not suck. Same goes for Maul's double saber.


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Old 10-02-2002, 09:17 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Can we just use: Lightsaber, Lightstaff and Dual-Sabers

Its getting hard to keep track of what people are talking about.

Watch Episode 1, when fighting 1vs1 Maul used only one blade, he needed the enhanced agility of a sword. Later when fighting two Jedi he switched to the staff, the lightstaff was a defensive weapon not an offensive one, sure potentially you can attack faster, but your choice of moves is limited.

Lightstaff should be the ultimate defensive weapon, however lethal attacks if the enemy's defense is downright poor

Lightsaber stances should be medium defense and attack with minor variations based on personal taste rather than a rock-paper-scissors system (ie to give fighters some character)

Dual-Sabers should have the fastest and most vicious offense at a defensive penalty, but still be able to defend against power attacks if your circumstances are right

I feel this gives each weapon their advantage but they can "borrow" the offensive/defensive advantages of the other weapons if the situation is right.


Now you're getting it. The "Lightstaff", or double-bladed saber as I call it, will be very defensive, have extremely poor penetrative capabilities. It's going to be ideally suited to defending yourself in a crowd. A la episode 1.

Twin sabers will be made for very agressive offense, but will be very susceptible to being broken by more stable, stronger attacks. The idea will be that if your opponent is rushing you with twin sabers, then you're going to have to back off and play cat and mouse until you get the opening to break their defenses.


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Old 10-02-2002, 09:19 AM   #66
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Originally posted by thehomicidalegg
Also, perhaps a well timed accurate shot (large difference in csc values) will result in a dualsaberist loosing one of his/her sabres( think anakin ep2).
hmmm....(taps fingers thoughtfully)


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Old 10-02-2002, 10:07 AM   #67
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the double-bladed saber should be defensive, but I think in order to emulate it even more closely, it should be defensive when moving in the correct directions. Rather than make it a cool looking saber that is essentially blue stance, why not this.

Rather than make it premierly defensive, make it a defensive, but agile, style. So you have your quick strikes that are difficult to penetrate with, and in turn you have a defense that is difficult to pentrate... but only when you are moving back. If you decide to stand still, etc., you have a constant penalty, or when you're moving foward. Sideways and backswards, you get a good defensive bonus. Maul fought two jedi, but you'll also note that he was not advancing on them at all. He was also rarely holding his ground, usually holding ground when he knew he could block and then quickly counter attack.

It would be good to see a style which relied on giving ground to defend, and then at the right moments strike with moves that hardly penetrate, do decent damage, and occasionally using kick to keep the guy away.

I like the csc thing too.

The big question though is how would you ever assign all of these lightsaber styles in the force power menu. Also, let's not forget the guns.

With all of these new styles in, other players may be concerend that promod has become an exclusive sabers only game. I, for one, do not want this. In fact, if you asked me, the guns should be ramped up in damage.

I am ever curious as to how you plan to balance guns vs sabers 'once and for all'. Personally, what I don't like is that there are various guns that you could call 'low tier', and other guns that are 'high tier'.

'Low tier' would be the bryar, the st rifle, bowcaster. Currently, promod's sniper rifle requires a bit more force allocation and aiming to block, so i guess it's kinda in its own little world. However, it bothers me to know end that I can charge a stormtrooper rifle carrying person and two things happen.

1.) I swing at him, knowing that he has to blast me at least 8-10 times to kill me, and my one swing ends the fight. I don't even have to try to dodge the shots while dashing at him with force speed, unlike the rocket launcher or the repeater.

2.) I do block the shots, and some of them happen to bounce back at him. However, I also must hit him with his own shots 8-10 times, so he's basically free to fire away at me unless he's at point blank range, in which case I either try my luck using this method or go back to method 1.


Granted, these weapons should feel as if they are to be overwhelmed by a lightsaber. But on the same token, I think all the guns should really hurt. This way, if the saber is used skillfully, you can win, but if the gunner is clever, ala Jango Fett, the blaster can prove a deadly weapon to a jedi as well. Also, when gunners square off, rather than have a five minute slug fest, they would be faced with a match in which the one with the most precise aim and quicker reflexes wins, instead of the guy who knows how to use force jump the most efficiently.

Also. when we assign points to saber offense defense, what may really turn players off is if they go onto 'promod', and find that everyone is now toting a lightsaber, a dual-blade saber, and dual sabers all at once. that's five styles. Why should they ever use a gun, they're having so much fun running around with their twenty lightsaber custom looks.

Hopefully, you'll set things so that force points that are assigned to certain styles will prohibit the possibility for other styles.

Here's an example of a possible bad combination . A theoretically defensive double-bladed saber, that gets great defense and quick pokes, combined with a normal red stance lightsaber style. This guy now has the theoretically best defense and the ability to just randomly switch to the best offense. After swinging, he just switches back to best defense.

I don't know, I'm not saying that this will actually be a problem (I guarentee all of you that your fancy sabers will not daunt my use of the lightsaber. I've played against these othersabers in the past, and I'll do it again).

Hopefully 'momentum' or redirecting will be a factor in the lightsaber combat as well. And I would love to know what that new neutral force power is going to be. Please don't say something like 'safe fall' (useless) or like force dodge (don't need it).
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Old 10-03-2002, 11:21 AM   #68
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Been hosting a server and I gets lots of new players asking questions and commenting on what they like and don't like.

Well, what they don't like is losing saber duels constantly. So, when saber dueling the only way to keep them interested and happy is to turn my back on them and stand completely still so they can stab me in the back. Or, you can run blindly around in circles hitting the attack button when they're safely out of range and hope they'll quickly dispatch you. **warning don't try this at home as you may pickup bad habits** The new player then starts commenting on how much they like the mod.

This reflects the only inherent problem with the mod, if you suck or haven't learned the skills you will never or rarely win - as the mod stresses skill over all else.

The current duel game type pits the best against the weakest, which is a HUGE game flaw.

Suggestion: when FFA multiple challenge duels are enabled then go one step further. Add a cvar that allows a FFA-Duel server to keep all sabers sheathed and force powers disabled until a challenge is initiated. (something similar to the JK2sp pre bar fight)

This would also make most maps in the game far more useful for dueling. And allow players to "choose" who they duel with and when. This is very, very important when a game has a solid skill requirement.
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Old 10-03-2002, 01:14 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Shaft
the double-bladed saber should be defensive, but I think in order to emulate it even more closely, it should be defensive when moving in the correct directions. Rather than make it a cool looking saber that is essentially blue stance, why not this.

...

It would be good to see a style which relied on giving ground to defend, and then at the right moments strike with moves that hardly penetrate, do decent damage, and occasionally using kick to keep the guy away.


This is what I'm hoping it will be like when I get it finished.

Quote:
[i]
I like the csc thing too.

The big question though is how would you ever assign all of these lightsaber styles in the force power menu. Also, let's not forget the guns.
[/b]


(evil grin)

Quote:
[i]
With all of these new styles in, other players may be concerend that promod has become an exclusive sabers only game. I, for one, do not want this. In fact, if you asked me, the guns should be ramped up in damage.

I am ever curious as to how you plan to balance guns vs sabers 'once and for all'. Personally, what I don't like is that there are various guns that you could call 'low tier', and other guns that are 'high tier'...
[/b]


I'm taking care of all of this in one fell swoop.

Quote:
[i]
Also. when we assign points to saber offense defense, what may really turn players off is if they go onto 'promod', and find that everyone is now toting a lightsaber, a dual-blade saber, and dual sabers all at once. that's five styles. Why should they ever use a gun, they're having so much fun running around with their twenty lightsaber custom looks.

Hopefully, you'll set things so that force points that are assigned to certain styles will prohibit the possibility for other styles.

Here's an example of a possible bad combination . A theoretically defensive double-bladed saber, that gets great defense and quick pokes, combined with a normal red stance lightsaber style. This guy now has the theoretically best defense and the ability to just randomly switch to the best offense. After swinging, he just switches back to best defense.

I don't know, I'm not saying that this will actually be a problem (I guarentee all of you that your fancy sabers will not daunt my use of the lightsaber. I've played against these othersabers in the past, and I'll do it again).
[/b]


The "other" saber styles will be balanced with the normal styles (as close to it as I can get without massive open testing, anyway). There'll no doubt be room for tweaking when it's finished, though.

Quote:
[i]
Hopefully 'momentum' or redirecting will be a factor in the lightsaber combat as well. And I would love to know what that new neutral force power is going to be. Please don't say something like 'safe fall' (useless) or like force dodge (don't need it). [/B]


I'm planning to mess around with momentum and see how much it messes with the feel of the game. As for the new force power...just have to wait and see. It will be exclusive to ProMod.


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Old 10-03-2002, 01:27 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrCrusher
Been hosting a server and I gets lots of new players asking questions and commenting on what they like and don't like.

Well, what they don't like is losing saber duels constantly. So, when saber dueling the only way to keep them interested and happy is to turn my back on them and stand completely still so they can stab me in the back. Or, you can run blindly around in circles hitting the attack button when they're safely out of range and hope they'll quickly dispatch you. **warning don't try this at home as you may pickup bad habits** The new player then starts commenting on how much they like the mod.

This reflects the only inherent problem with the mod, if you suck or haven't learned the skills you will never or rarely win - as the mod stresses skill over all else.

The current duel game type pits the best against the weakest, which is a HUGE game flaw.

Suggestion: when FFA multiple challenge duels are enabled then go one step further. Add a cvar that allows a FFA-Duel server to keep all sabers sheathed and force powers disabled until a challenge is initiated. (something similar to the JK2sp pre bar fight)

This would also make most maps in the game far more useful for dueling. And allow players to "choose" who they duel with and when. This is very, very important when a game has a solid skill requirement.


I've been thinking a lot about the learning curve for new players. ProMod has a lot of strategies and techniques to digest on top of the standard version's. At some point, I'm going to be implementing an in-game help feature that will briefly explain some aspects of the mod. Maybe some generous map maker will offer to do a training level similar to other fps's. (hint, hint) I'd do it myself, but I'm swamped with trying to get Beta 3 ready.

Enhancing the duel modes is something else on my very long list of things I'd like to do. Modifying private duels in multiplayer is probably the way I'll go, since players will only need to look at the scoreboard to see who would be a good challenge for them.


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Old 10-03-2002, 03:15 PM   #71
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Suggestion: when FFA multiple challenge duels are enabled then go one step further. Add a cvar that allows a FFA-Duel server to keep all sabers sheathed and force powers disabled until a challenge is initiated. (something similar to the JK2sp pre bar fight)
Fantastic idea! Coupling this with some user made multiple arena maps (similar in function to Heretic 2's blading arena maps) would make for some very fun & interesting dueling.
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Old 10-03-2002, 05:51 PM   #72
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Hmm.. a training map. I've been looking for an excuse to start mapping again. Wonder how one could implement a training setup... may require a bit of coding.

JK1 had a simple hit feedback setup in Morgan's shop where Kyle first found his lightsaber. Depending on where you hit - that quadrant would light up.

Heretic 2 had an excellent training level, especially the hanging chicken at the end that registered damage feedback. When the chicken was hit there would be a print message that told you how much damage you did. Also hitting the upside-down dangling chicken would knock it away and if you didn't move quickly the chicken would swinging back into you doing damage or knocking you flat.

One way to train players might be using bots and slow motion duels. Slow motion Sword training and choreography in real life are usually done at half speed. I've done mapping with UnrealEd, if I remember correctly there was an excellent zoning setup allowing all sorts of matrix like enviorments, slow motion, low gravity etc. I'm not aware of any thing in QRadiant as feature filled.

If there were some way to register print messages as well during duels, that would reveal (according to the ghoul system) damage and location of attack damage. Could even print message feedback similar to RPG hit die rolls that registered blocks, parries, defense breaks etc.and the CSC challenge values between two opponents. RPGers would flock to this even for non training game play. This would seem easier to do than model damage decals, or damage skins.

A target dummy or model, or even world geometry made to look like a target dummy might work....

Training map... if I can be of help then let me know. FFA_Cloudshark is my first and only map with JKRadiant. This map was designed for multiple Duels with minimum geometry, great r_speed thus FPS.
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Old 10-03-2002, 06:07 PM   #73
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Enhancing the duel modes is something else on my very long list of things I'd like to do. Modifying private duels in multiplayer is probably the way I'll go, since players will only need to look at the scoreboard to see who would be a good challenge for them.
Maybe even an enhanced score board that catigorizes the title occording to skill i.e. Many-wins/few-losses would hold a Jedi Master title on score board etc.

...or even add titles to the players-name per server. That way you could target an opponent and know who to run from or who to attack....
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Old 10-03-2002, 07:25 PM   #74
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Heretic 2 had an excellent training level, especially the hanging chicken at the end that registered damage feedback. When the chicken was hit there would be a print message that told you how much damage you did. Also hitting the upside-down dangling chicken would knock it away and if you didn't move quickly the chicken would swinging back into you doing damage or knocking you flat.
Yep, that was an excellent training level and it even made for a decent mp level too. Somehow, whacking the chicken was never satisfactory for me, I always wanted to choke it.

Message feedback during duels would be very helpful. You could have varying levels of feedback depending on how much info the player wants. Great idea.
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Old 10-04-2002, 04:36 AM   #75
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Feedback available nw

For a simple feedback system without installing anything, start up a team based server (team ffa) and turn ON team damage and friendly saber. Then fight someone on your team. You can see how much damage you did to them in the upper righthand corner. Haven't tried this but I guess it should work.

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Old 10-04-2002, 09:48 AM   #76
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Crusher: I'd love to have somebody do a training map, so if you'd like to give it a shot, then contact me at arsartifex@msn.com. Make sure to leave your lucasforums handle in the email so I know who you are.

I really like the idea of having a cvar that will allow the player to change the level of feedback that they get. Consider that on my short list for stuff to add in Beta 3. The big thing I think would help would be to have a numerical representation of your CSC value when attacking and defending with the saber. Maybe even some numerical damage indicators above the head of your enemies; red for health damage, green for shield damage. I've already planned to have the CSC flash white when sabers clash or when a body hit occurs to give people a better feel for when the CSC is being tested.

Sound could be used as well. Maybe I can rip the quake 3 "hit" tone and put that in for when damage is scored. The current saber damage sound is way too similar to the saber clash sound for my taste.

You guys got any more requests for visual/audio feedback?


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Old 10-04-2002, 07:57 PM   #77
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Sound

Isn't there already a sound associated with scoring a hit? The person you hit screams when you hit them, and it's a different scream depending on how much health they have left. There are 4 different screams. Of course, some model authors have screwed this up by making all 4 of the scream sounds for their model identical but that's a whole other discussion.

What i'm getting at is, i think the audio indications of a hit are just fine as they are. It's a different sound AND the character screams. If you get a clash sound and it's too similar to the damage sound, then just listen for the guy screaming.

Listen to Luke. When he drops below 25hp he starts making this rediculous "Doi" sound.

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Old 10-05-2002, 02:47 AM   #78
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except the audio thing isnt still absolutely right... sometimes i get a nick for 1 hp, and he lets loose a blood curldling scream as if he got quatered or something
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Old 10-05-2002, 04:04 AM   #79
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No, it's actually working the way they meant it, albeit that way is kinda silly.

There's 4 sound files. One for 100hp-76hp, one for 75-51, one for 50-26, one for 25-1. (Give or take one point, I haven't checked.) The way it works, if you have 100 points and I wack you for 20, you do the 100-75 groan cause you're in that range. But if I'm at 30 and you nick me for 1, then I do the 50-26 scream cause i'm in that range.

The scream is more of a gauge of how many HP you have left , not how much damage that particular swing did.
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Old 10-05-2002, 12:45 PM   #80
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Hmm, I'd think that the sound being triggered by the damage done would make more sense. Nicking them and getting a death-scream out of it is pretty silly, though I recognize the usefulness of knowing when your opponent is close to death.

I don't really think the screams are a very good feedback system, either. They're very subjective. Who really knows the difference between the 25-50 and 50-75 scream for every model, anyway?

I'll think about this some more.


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