lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar
View Poll Results: are you for agains human cloning
yes 12 24.49%
no 28 57.14%
i dont know i might need more assurance of its stability 9 18.37%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: for or against human cloning?
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 01-03-2003, 12:57 AM   #1
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
for or against human cloning?

personally i dont see much wrong with it other than maybe it getting into the wrong hands but that basically goes for anything right?


This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 01:25 AM   #2
-s/<itzo-
Hmdl
 
-s/<itzo-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: psychiatric ward
Posts: 2,366
Hot Topic Starter 
i oppose human cloning.

its not our place as human beings to create human life forms other than reproduction. i mean what will cloning do for us. why don't we put more time and effort looking for cures of diseases like AIDs intead. something that will benefit our society.

just leave human creation to GODs hands.



"It doesn't matter. Use whatever technique you like. However. Once I've said I'll kill you, your death is assured." --Himura Kenshin
-s/<itzo- is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 01:36 AM   #3
BCanr2d2
Chief B*log Man
 
BCanr2d2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the nursery, changing a nappy
Posts: 1,977
I oppose it very much so. There is nothing right with human cloning, it basically voids everything that people have fought for over the last 100 or more years. The ability to be an individual, to be unique, and to express that as well.
Once we make copies of ourselves, even if they are our children, it voids evolving into a better species. Do people not realise that humans aren't a static design, that they are forever evolving, changing......

Not to mention the legalities over the certain uses that people have for them, for medical purposes especially. Do we somehow not grant that clone a life, a name, just so that they can save someone else. You are depriving something else, which we would call human, the chance to be that, to have a life of their own. Or do people not look that deep into the whole situation, and look at the ethical, moral and legal ramifications of any situation with a clone.........


Any resemblence to intelligence in my posts is purely coincidental and accidental..

No posts were harmed in the creation of this post!

B*log....
BCanr2d2 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 01:49 AM   #4
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-


its not our place as human beings to create human life forms other than reproduction.
Cloning is reproduction. And don't look at clones like freaks - they cannot be better than a 98% copy of the source, due to a currently unsolveable problem with the cloning technique. Clones are not the same person as their host, and they can never be.

I really don't get this unreasonable fear for the clones themselves a lot of people in here have. Fear the consequences, fear the technique, but for God's sake, clones are just as human as you and me.

Quote:
something that will benefit our society.
I'll give you cloning that can benefit society: Stem cell research. You clone the usual way, except you don't insert the embryo in a womb, but in a bowl instead. There, you let it grow to about the size of 4 cells. No more is needed, no miracles or hidden tricks involved. These early cells have the ability to morph into any type of cell the body needs (only natural since they need to grow to a whole baby quickly).

Look at Mr. Smith: Due to an unfortunate accident, his spine nerves are ripped apart, rendering him severely disabled. If we clone some of his cells backwards to the stem cell stage, and insert them into his spine, they can actually grow into nerve cells and heal him. That is no miracle, that is cloning healing people. There are a zillion of other possibilities for healing formerly incurable problems with this technique.

But there's another alternative: Cyborgs. Yes, soon we could be able to use nanotechnology to solve much the same problems, only it'd result in a drasticly more mechanical person than we used to know. Imagine non-human circuits in your brain and polymer for your bones.

It all rests on these two options. Which is the way to go?

Quote:
just leave human creation to GODs hands.
Bah. Human reproduction has nothing to do with belief. It works fine without putting faith into a higher power. It's all chemicals and a bag of chips, just like you don't associate God with taking a leak or bending your knee.


Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.

Member of The Scandinavian Clique

My LiveJournal
C'jais is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:11 AM   #5
-s/<itzo-
Hmdl
 
-s/<itzo-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: psychiatric ward
Posts: 2,366
Hot Topic Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Cjais
Cloning is reproduction. And don't look at clones like freaks - they cannot be better than a 98% copy of the source, due to a currently unsolveable problem with the cloning technique. Clones are not the same person as their host, and they can never be.
reproduction and cloning is different. cloning is man made its artificial. its tampering with the natural process. thats like comparing ham with spam, it just ain't the same as the original. but thats not even my point. i mean why do we as human beings need clones of ourselves. i just think its unnecessary.

Quote:
I'll give you cloning that can benefit society: Stem cell research. You clone the usual way, except you don't insert the embryo in a womb, but in a bowl instead. There, you let it grow to about the size of 4 cells. No more is needed, no miracles or hidden tricks involved. These early cells have the ability to morph into any type of cell the body needs (only natural since they need to grow to a whole baby quickly).
yeah, i've heard about this and it is very helpfull.

but the process of cloning someone of yourself, that i oppose because i really don't see any point of it. it won't achieve anything.



"It doesn't matter. Use whatever technique you like. However. Once I've said I'll kill you, your death is assured." --Himura Kenshin
-s/<itzo- is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:12 AM   #6
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
stem cell research is why i think it is ok. i saw michael j. foxes presentation to the senate and man i started cryin cuz it was sad that the parkinsons literally knocked him out of his chair from the twitching and stuff.


This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:13 AM   #7
FunClown
 
FunClown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 549
I personally don't like human cloning and even animal cloning.

Clones are indeed not perfect and almost all if not all have some sought of abmorality that the original did not have. The clones are therefore, put in a state where they have suffering and pain because of scientists who want to make a name for themselves. I've seen the videos of sheep and so forth.

If that human clone is true, a breathing, living human being may age very quick, have other abmoralities and pretty much have a terrible life. All for what cause? Is it an honourable cause?

Should I start giong to a drive in now to order my child? Perhaps I'll engineer someone or get one of those Woody Allen 2000 SX?

Eugenics on this scale is bad. However, if it involves something like living tissue like an organ growing on its own or cloning blood cells I think that is OK. However, stem cells it turns out has been grossly overestimated by scientists, and if they are a human being growing in their early stages I object. The stem cells are a human being developing.


No, I am no relation to Krusty.
FunClown is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:14 AM   #8
storm trooper55
Banned
 
storm trooper55's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Echobase
Posts: 20
they cud use human cloning if the worldm population went down or sumfing but it isnt really required at the moment
storm trooper55 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:22 AM   #9
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
i like where this is going just dont turn into a flame war or it will be my ass and you guys dont want that do you. cuz then they would have to clone me ... J/K


This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:23 AM   #10
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-
cloning is man made its artificial. its tampering with the natural process.
You'd be surprised at how hazy the line between "natural process" and "artificial" is. But if that's your standpoint, I'm fine with it.

Quote:
i just think its unnecessary.
As do I. While reproductive cloning can be helpful in rare circumstances, we're already too many people here. I don't care about rich couples wanting to clone their dead son. Leave him be dammit.

Quote:
and if they are a human being growing in their early stages I object. The stem cells are a human being developing.
At that stage, they're cells of yourself. I suppose you cry tears of mourning too when you cut yourself, destroying hundreds of cells that could in fact be grown into clones of yourself.

Once you get down into genetics, you can't really define "human".

Think of the poor Mr. Smith mentioned above - if you object to his cloning, he'll never be able to walk again. All because of your beliefs. Are you in a position to judge him like that?


Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.

Member of The Scandinavian Clique

My LiveJournal
C'jais is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:27 AM   #11
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally posted by Cjais
You'd be surprised at how hazy the line between "natural process" and "artificial" is.
exactly. ok my point you a christian guy right ok so (ill get to your point of view) god gave us the ability to clone therefore its natural yet somewhat artificial.
:edit: my postcount now is 666 is that a sign?:edit:


This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:31 AM   #12
STTCT
Bantha Fodder
 
STTCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 4,608
Hot Topic Starter Forum Veteran 
I'm opposed for now. I think that .... if it is in the wrong hands it can be used for evil. I don't think cloning itself is evil persay. But I do think that the people doing the cloning are given this god like ability to control a human as far as its traits or to clone the wrong kind of person. Say they clone more Saddam's or something. Bin Ladens or whatever. Make the ultimate Terror Babies or what have you. Since, you can't really tell who can clone for good or evil I don't think we should clone at all. Its too dangerous.


STTCT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:43 AM   #13
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-
i oppose human cloning.

its not our place as human beings to create human life forms other than reproduction. i mean what will cloning do for us. why don't we put more time and effort looking for cures of diseases like AIDs intead. something that will benefit our society.

just leave human creation to GODs hands.

If this so called god didnt want us to clone, why did he make us able to. Why did he give us an imagination that could come up with such outrageous ideas. If he didn't want it to happen, he could stop it, or he could have disallowed it in the first place. It was his call, and he left us in charge.

What harm can it do anyway?

You think the headlines will be reading "Bin Laden creates a grand clone army"?????.....
If anyone does have clone soldiers, it'll be western civilization, which means our loved ones wont have to go to war....

But by that time war will just be whoever can press the nuke button first, so we won't need them anyway.



But my personal opinion is, if it helps the medical industry with disease research, I'm all for it. Personally, I plan on going into cancer research myself. Cloning for stem cells is something that is direly needed.

Don't you people think it's utterly fascinating that we can completely genetically replicate a human being? It's incredible. It's another marvel of how far we've come.

I think some people are just scared because if we do, it brings us a step closer to their precious god, which makes their god a step less incredible in the eyes of the world.


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:47 AM   #14
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by STTCT
I'm opposed for now. I think that .... if it is in the wrong hands it can be used for evil. I don't think cloning itself is evil persay. But I do think that the people doing the cloning are given this god like ability to control a human as far as its traits or to clone the wrong kind of person. Say they clone more Saddam's or something. Bin Ladens or whatever. Make the ultimate Terror Babies or what have you. Since, you can't really tell who can clone for good or evil I don't think we should clone at all. Its too dangerous.

As much as people want to believe it, and as much as we're told of the links, violent behaviour isnt genetically predetermined.

If you cloned saddam and raised him in any old friendly household, he would turn out to be a charming young man. Our environment controls how we think and feel. It's how we're raised that makes us who we are. Every minute event in saddam's life has added up to make him who he is today. If someone had given him a teddy bear for his 5th birthday rather than a toy nuke, maybe things would be different.


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 02:53 AM   #15
STTCT
Bantha Fodder
 
STTCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 4,608
Hot Topic Starter Forum Veteran 
Agreed....on the whole if clone saddam was placed in a different environment...

However...if someone did clone saddam....I think they would have done it for no good. I'm sure somebody wouldn't go...you know Saddam wasn't that bad he just didn't have the right up-bringing. Honey order us a clone Saddam so we can show the world that he can be good!

No they would clone him to take his place...or be evil. They would make his environment turn him evil.

I guess that's what I was trying to say. I am totally agreed that it is the environment around you that determines your personality and your decisions etc.

I wouldn't mind if a family who couldn't have children wanted a clone of them to be able to still keep the family line open. That's all good. But I still think that even with all the good intentions there are going to be people out there abusing this technology and I don't think that we should have cloning until we able to control it better....and I don't think that will happen soon.

I also think cloning of organs is awesome. I am all for that research. Is that the stem cell stuff?


STTCT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:11 AM   #16
-s/<itzo-
Hmdl
 
-s/<itzo-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: psychiatric ward
Posts: 2,366
Hot Topic Starter 
Good point GonkH8er


But If we cloned people, we would no longer be unique individuals like God made us.


I don't see any good reason to have cloning, except to use it as technology to get rid of birth defects, viruses and for organ replacement/spinal regeneration, etc...


I believe that people are given souls at the moment the sperm touches the egg, be that in the womb, a petri dish, a test tube or where ever else that do that. Is sperm touching an egg. it is the joining of two people, animals, etc in order to create another. cloning is just copying some dna. i don't see how anybody could want to create soul-less beings, or who would want to be one.

i believe that things other than dna make up the core of who a person is. things such as personality and character. yes, these things are also shaped over time, but people are born with the general outline of them. i really don't think that personality and character can be defined by amino acids, proteins, nucleotide chains, etc. there is much more to people than that.

i don't particularly believe in cloning. it just seems arbitrary

why do we need to clone humans anyway?Have you ever heard the saying "kids are cruel"? What will the REAL children say? God made man NOT man made man. plus the world population is already a problem. Why add more of us who are LIKE us?

Instead of wasting a lot of money cloning people, the money would better be spent on research to prevent the disease and to cure it without crossing moral lines. sure a genetic match of organs would help a lot, but i just think people can do better than this.



"It doesn't matter. Use whatever technique you like. However. Once I've said I'll kill you, your death is assured." --Himura Kenshin
-s/<itzo- is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:13 AM   #17
Redwing
thedeadlymoose
 
Redwing's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 17,237
10 year veteran! LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
What's with the way people are bringing God into this? Creating a clone is essentially creating a twin. I guess twins are evil too, then?

Oh, you say God doesn't want us to clone humans? Gee, that isn't arbitrary AT ALL.

Quote:
However...if someone did clone saddam....I think they would have done it for no good. I'm sure somebody wouldn't go...you know Saddam wasn't that bad he just didn't have the right up-bringing. Honey order us a clone Saddam so we can show the world that he can be good!

No they would clone him to take his place...or be evil. They would make his environment turn him evil.
But he still wouldn't be the same. He would be a different person; he would not be Saddam. It's completely impossible.

Even in your first example, that would be pointless. They wouldn't be showing the world Saddam can be good, they would be showing the world that Saddam's twin can be good.

(Note I'm talking about cloning as a concept - as a practice it does have extremely high potential for problems)

Quote:
I'm opposed for now. I think that .... if it is in the wrong hands it can be used for evil.
What is there in our existence that cannot be used for evil?


edit: Wow this post sounds mean. Don't hate me, it's 5 AM ^^;;;


Redwing is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:14 AM   #18
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
But why should a few people doing bad stuff ruin all the miracles it could bring....


James, 2 years old, dies of SIDS while he sleeps. Is it wrong for the parents to want to have their child back? Wouldn't it be amazing if they could have their child back.

"Oh, but they can make another baby"....

... Well that's a bit heartless now isn't it? Sure it may seem a bit cold, even sadistic and mechanical to bring a dead person back to life as a newborn, but personally I'd say to let so many children die and just say "Oh well... lets move on and have another child" is the colder option.


And well, we're not at the stage yet where we can specify a cluster of embryonic stem cells and say "Make a kidney of blood type AB+!"... but..... stem cells can be taken from foetuses under a week old and inserted into the spine of someone with normally irreparable damage and create new spinal tissue so that that person may walk.

Quote:
The ability to grow human tissue of all kinds opens the door to treating a range of cell-based diseases and to growing medically important tissues that can be used for transplantation purposes. For example, diseases like juvenile onset diabetes mellitus and Parkinson's disease occur because of defects in one of just a few cells types. Replacing faulty cells with healthy ones offers hope of lifelong treatment. Similarly, failing hearts and other organs, in theory, could be shored up by injecting healthy cells to replace damaged or diseased cells
It's amazing what they could do if only it were properly legalized.


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:20 AM   #19
Clemme w/Stick
Forum Guest
 
Clemme w/Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Aalborg, Denmark. Otherwise Talnivarr, EU server.
Posts: 2,340
I'm against human cloning!

If we started cloning there would be no individualist any more....and that would be like taking away our humanity!!

-Clemme





Thx for the sig/av combo GothiX
Clemme w/Stick is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:23 AM   #20
STTCT
Bantha Fodder
 
STTCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 4,608
Hot Topic Starter Forum Veteran 
I am against the whole "we lost our son and now we want him back, so we cloned him" ack. That is too freekish to me! You are right guys as far as....No the "clone son" wouldn't be the same son - but in a sense...it is. Do we know enough yet to know that regardless of environment or what have you that the clone would not do EXACTLY what their original did? No cuz we never had a clone human before. And what happens if we suddenly start playing with these genectics making super humans and clones of super humans and then someone like Hitler decides to kill us all. Ack. Given to the wrong hands - this is dangerous. Give me a good reason guys why we "NEED" clones.


STTCT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:33 AM   #21
Redwing
thedeadlymoose
 
Redwing's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 17,237
10 year veteran! LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Do we know enough yet to know that regardless of environment or what have you that the clone would not do EXACTLY what their original did? No cuz we never had a clone human before.
But we have twins. ^_~


Redwing is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:35 AM   #22
Anakin_Solo
 
Anakin_Solo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 63
im going to annoy a lot of people here, and watch below as people start calling me crazy and weirdo...

But i dont care!

Religon told us to belive that US "man", is the creation of GOD. fair enough, But Did GOD create the Dinosaurs ? if GOD didnt create the Dinos, WHO did? evolution? freak accident? meteor hitting the earth with Alien lifeforms on it?

MARS had life on it long before we did. i really belive that, and its only time thaT WILL prove me right. i have a saying,

Life on Earth is not a miracle,
Life on Mars is...

Our PAST, and future is out there people, in SPACE. It is TOO vast to have us belive WE "GODS IMAGE" are the only living beings with intelligence. 2000 years before Jesus was born Man lived in Africa, look at the evolution of mankind, it changes, adapted, WHY?

if we are perfect? why did it change? Did GOD say "oops made a mistake with this one"

I belive we ARE a creation of Cloning, not of GOD but from an Alien race of men. Long time ago they could have left us here, on Earth as life was formed. maybe MARS was dying... and we came here, but our intelligence and understanding is baffling me?

You can mock me all you want, but as you read this ^, sit back and think.... just think of the planets that COULD have life out there...

OH cloning, didnt take us long to perfect that did it? Did aliens really land @ Roswell? are they helping man?

What other inovations are going to change our lives for ever...


"They may take our land, but they will never take our freedom."
Anakin_Solo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:36 AM   #23
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-
But If we cloned people, we would no longer be unique individuals like God made us.
Unique? So DNA makes us unique, is that it?

Quote:
I believe that people are given souls at the moment the sperm touches the egg [...] i don't see how anybody could want to create soul-less beings, or who would want to be one.
But cloning also means an egg and a sperm cell touch each other. So that means clone people aren't "soulless" in any way.

Quote:
i really don't think that personality and character can be defined by amino acids, proteins, nucleotide chains, etc.
This is all there is, as of now. Until you have evidence of a soul, I say we stop letting petty beliefs hinder the progress of science.

Quote:
God made man NOT man made man.
Are you to argue that whenever a baby is born, it is NOT the product of the parents? Stop living in a black and white world.

Until you have proof of God making Man, stop letting your beliefs hinder progress that might save people.

Quote:
Plus the world population is already a problem.
If that is your concern, I suggest you go right ahead and advocate abortion, condoms and birth control. Go ahead. Do it and make the world a better place.

Quote:
Instead of wasting a lot of money cloning people, the money would better be spent on research to prevent the disease and to cure it without crossing moral lines. sure a genetic match of organs would help a lot, but i just think people can do better than this.
Believe what you will. When the world is hanging in a thread because Christians can't accept that their morals are ignored, we'll see who can do better.


Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.

Member of The Scandinavian Clique

My LiveJournal
C'jais is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:42 AM   #24
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
Quote:
Originally posted by Clemme w/Stick
If we started cloning there would be no individualist any more....and that would be like taking away our humanity!!

-Clemme
Clemme, twins are more perfect clones than we can create (right now). Are they inhuman too? Are they "soulless"?


Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.

Member of The Scandinavian Clique

My LiveJournal
C'jais is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:42 AM   #25
STTCT
Bantha Fodder
 
STTCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 4,608
Hot Topic Starter Forum Veteran 
did we learn nothing from Jurassic Park???



STTCT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:44 AM   #26
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by -s/<itzo-

But If we cloned people, we would no longer be unique individuals like God made us.
If you raised 2 clones in 2 different households, even if they lived just down the street from eachother, they would be TOTALLY different individuals.... You're just judging a book by it's cover. It's how we think and feel that makes us the people we are. If there is a god, he must approve of a little lack of physical differentiation here and there.... after all, he does allow identical twins and triplets and so-on to occur naturally. Or are they mistakes? Biological errors in his grand scheme.... should we outcast people who look the same, or god forbid, even think the same.


Quote:
I don't see any good reason to have cloning, except to use it as technology to get rid of birth defects, viruses and for organ replacement/spinal regeneration, etc...
I'd say that's one hell of a good reason. Don't you think wiping out previously uncurable and terminal diseases for good is worth crossing a few moral boundries for?


Quote:
I believe that people are given souls at the moment the sperm touches the egg, be that in the womb, a petri dish, a test tube or where ever else that do that. Is sperm touching an egg. it is the joining of two people, animals, etc in order to create another. cloning is just copying some dna. i don't see how anybody could want to create soul-less beings, or who would want to be one.
Well when we finally raise a clones human being, if he turns out to be 'soul-less' as you put it, I'll let that statement slide... But, how is it exactly that you determine if they're soul-less? I'd consider 'soul' to be a person's essence. Their emotions, their way of life. As far as we know, that's all in the brain. Heck, we've even found what PART of the brain.... so if the brain's the same, the 'soul' must be there, my friend

Quote:
i believe that things other than dna make up the core of who a person is. things such as personality and character. yes, these things are also shaped over time, but people are born with the general outline of them. i really don't think that personality and character can be defined by amino acids, proteins, nucleotide chains, etc. there is much more to people than that.
From what I know, emotions, feelings, thoughts..... they're all just chemical reactions within the brain. We've identified that as a scientific proof by observing brain-chemical alterations through emotional changes.


Quote:
why do we need to clone humans anyway?Have you ever heard the saying "kids are cruel"? What will the REAL children say? God made man NOT man made man. plus the world population is already a problem. Why add more of us who are LIKE us?
As much as we are a terrible generation, full of misfits and evil, we have to admit that we love ourselves and eachother. We like us.

In the biblical sense, yes, god DID make man. He made A man... and he made a woman. That man and woman made their children, who made their own children, who proceeded to kill eachother for no reason and be insanely incestuous...

Man has does so much.... We've come so far... Thus why humanism has come about.. The belief that we've come this far without the help of some omnipotent being. We are in control. We have the power. We have imagination. We can do anything, and we will try it at least once.

Quote:
Instead of wasting a lot of money cloning people, the money would better be spent on research to prevent the disease and to cure it without crossing moral lines. sure a genetic match of organs would help a lot, but i just think people can do better than this.
The cloning of human embryos IS for research.... we've hit a stop sign with many diseases and ailments, where we cannot progress without the help of stem cells. I'll post a little I wrote for an essay a few years back

-----

Stem cells have the ability to divide for indefinite periods and to give rise to specialized cells. Stem cells are the base cells on which every cell in our body is based. When an unborn child is in the early foetal stage, it is a mass of stem cells, ready to change into the various cells needed throughout the body to be made, eg- nerve cells, muscle cells, etc. For this reason, stem cells are very rare, as most are converted in the early pregnancy stages. In adults and children, stem cells reside mainly in the bone marrow, and to a lesser degree in the blood. There are 3 types of stem cells.

Totipotent high potential can become any cell essentially
Pluripotent medium potential can become most cells, but not all
Multipotent low potential a more specialized cell, with less thing it is able to become


There are several important reasons why the isolation of human pluripotent stem cells is important to science and to advances in health care. At the most fundamental level, pluripotent stem cells could help us to understand the complex events that occur during human development inside the womb. A primary goal of this work would be the identification of any factors involved in the cell specialization process. Some of our most serious medical conditions, such as cancer and birth defects, are due to abnormal cell specialization and cell division. A better understanding of normal cell processes will allow doctors to try and beat these often-deadly illnesses.

Pluripotent stem cells would allow testing of medical drugs to counter disease in more cell types. This would not replace testing in whole animals and testing in humans, but it is a step towards it. Only the drugs that are both safe and appear to have a beneficial effect will continue on to further testing in laboratory animals and human subjects.


What many consider to be the most potential-filled application of human pluripotent stem cells is the generation of cells and tissue that could be used for "cell therapies." Many diseases and disorders result from disruption of cellular function or destruction of tissues of the body. Today, donated organs and tissues are often used to replace damaged or destroyed tissue, but unfortunately, the number of people suffering from these disorders exceeds the number of organs available for transplant by far. Pluripotent stem cells, specially controlled to develop into specialized cells, offer the possibility of a constant supply of replacement tissue and organs to treat a plethora of diseases and disabilities, including Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases, spinal cord injury, stroke, burns, heart disease, diabetes, osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis.


2 such uses are explained briefly below.

-Transplant of heart muscle cells could provide new hope for patients with chronic heart disease whose hearts can no longer pump adequately. The hope is to develop heart muscle cells from human pluripotent stem cells and transplant them into the failing heart muscle in order to augment the function of the failing heart. Tests on mice and other animals have demonstrated that healthy heart muscle cells transplanted into the heart can successfully repopulate the heart tissue and work together with the host cells.

-In the many individuals who suffer from Type I diabetes, the production of insulin by pancreas cells, called islet cells, is abnormally reduced. There is evidence that transplantation of either the entire pancreas or isolated islet cells could reduce the need for insulin injections.

The potential for further research and development in the area of stem cell manipulation is extensive, but doctors face a moral dilemma at the same time. The primary source of stem cells for laboratory research is from aborted foetuses. The ethics of whether or not to use a terminated pregnancy for experiments is one people dont want to face. Many people are actively against the research being carried out, due to the location where the stem cells are obtained.

-------

So being able to clone human embryos for stem cells would mean we wouldnt have to use aborted foetuses anymore. I'd rather use a laboratory-created foetus for research than some baby that a mother didn't want.


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:45 AM   #27
Redwing
thedeadlymoose
 
Redwing's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 17,237
10 year veteran! LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin_Solo
im going to annoy a lot of people here, and watch below as people start calling me crazy and weirdo...

But i dont care!

Religon told us to belive that US "man", is the creation of GOD. fair enough, But Did GOD create the Dinosaurs ? if GOD didnt create the Dinos, WHO did? evolution? freak accident? meteor hitting the earth with Alien lifeforms on it?

MARS had life on it long before we did. i really belive that, and its only time thaT WILL prove me right. i have a saying,

Life on Earth is not a miracle,
Life on Mars is...

Our PAST, and future is out there people, in SPACE. It is TOO vast to have us belive WE "GODS IMAGE" are the only living beings with intelligence. 2000 years before Jesus was born Man lived in Africa, look at the evolution of mankind, it changes, adapted, WHY?

if we are perfect? why did it change? Did GOD say "oops made a mistake with this one"

I belive we ARE a creation of Cloning, not of GOD but from an Alien race of men. Long time ago they could have left us here, on Earth as life was formed. maybe MARS was dying... and we came here, but our intelligence and understanding is baffling me?

You can mock me all you want, but as you read this ^, sit back and think.... just think of the planets that COULD have life out there...

OH cloning, didnt take us long to perfect that did it? Did aliens really land @ Roswell? are they helping man?

What other inovations are going to change our lives for ever...
So...where did the aliens come from?


lmao @ STTCT


Redwing is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:50 AM   #28
Anakin_Solo
 
Anakin_Solo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 63
MARS ?


"They may take our land, but they will never take our freedom."
Anakin_Solo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:50 AM   #29
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by STTCT
did we learn nothing from Jurassic Park???

If scientists got their hands on dinosaur dna, you honestly think a movie is going to stop them? Hell no... They'd whip them suckers up faster than you could say "I-thinky-saw-us rex"...


Besides... don't you want to see what colour dinosaur skin really is?



And anakin, that dying planet, run and hide on earth theory... Isn't that the basis of that shocking sci fi? what was it called.... the one where that guy got ripped apart by that twister on mars.... mission to mars was it? lol..... good times...


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:53 AM   #30
Anakin_Solo
 
Anakin_Solo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 63
And Gonk, we are all told that life outside EARTH is false. people laugh at you for saying things like that, and yet Water has been found on TWO moons of one of the planets? Cant member which one, might be pluto.

SO i belive Life started out there, somewhere.....


"They may take our land, but they will never take our freedom."
Anakin_Solo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:53 AM   #31
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin_Solo
if GOD didnt create the Dinos, WHO did? evolution?
In a word.... yes....


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:56 AM   #32
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin_Solo
And Gonk, we are all told that life outside EARTH is false. people laugh at you for saying things like that, and yet Water has been found on TWO moons of one of the planets? Cant member which one, might be pluto.

SO i belive Life started out there, somewhere.....
Anakin, don't get me wrong... I'm a strong believer that there's got to be something out there. It's an almost infinite universe. There's other suns with other planets, and yes, ice has been found on the moons on Jupiter. Maybe there's life out there that's been evolving for billions of years. maybe they killed themselves, maybe they've travelled this far out of their way. Maybe there's still life yet to evolve. Perhaps on a distant planet there's a primordial soup bubbling away right now. We won't know in our lifetime. We won't have the transportation capabilities to explore that far that quick.


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 03:56 AM   #33
Anakin_Solo
 
Anakin_Solo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 63
so tell me Gonk, what is evolution

explain it in English? is it a force? GOD? Mother Nature?

or is it LIFE addapting.


"They may take our land, but they will never take our freedom."
Anakin_Solo is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 04:07 AM   #34
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Evolution is life's way of saying "Somehow, you were born with this extra thingymajig........ this makes you better than them. They will die, you will flourish. But they may not die. They may stay the same. You may just go off on another tangent to them"

Basically, it's like the whole saddam personality deal. Your environment determines who you are, but in this case, it takes a generation or 100 for even a minute difference to occur.

Evolution is just about how all animals and plants came from a single soupy proteinal existance a few billion years ago.

Evolution is all about chance, adaptation and variation.

There's 2 types of evolution theory. Lamarkian evolution and Darwinian Evolution. Lamarkian evolution has almost been totally disregarded.

Lamark's theory was that necessity was the fundemental base of evolution. For example, giraffes had short necks, but because they needed them to reach higher leaves, they suddenly happened a few generations down the line. Basically, evolution happens because they need other stuff was his theory.

Darwin said evolution happens because by biological fluke, some giraffes are taller than others. They will eat more, and therefore survive better than the shorter ones. Then, by chance and variation, some might be slighty taller again. These ones will survive and flourish. Like pests becoming resistant to DDT or a bacteria strain becoming resistant to antibiotics..

The stronger survive and multiply. Survival of the fittest my friend...



but back onto cloning....


GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 04:20 AM   #35
griff38
 
griff38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: IN THE MACHINE
Posts: 938
Thumbs up Yes Please

I am sure there are already cloned humans somewhere on Earth. Who cares?

I remember when test tube babies came around in the 80s. All the usual doom sayers said the same things. Loss of dignity, end of individualism strange and evil doings most certainly!

Now there are over 30,000 living all over the world and nobody cares. Should we do away with them because they were not born like you?

Same thing will happen with cloning.

griff38 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 04:21 AM   #36
STTCT
Bantha Fodder
 
STTCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 4,608
Hot Topic Starter Forum Veteran 
u know i was just reading on cnn....you know those Raliegn people believe sorta wat u believe Anakin.


THE RAELIAN MOVEMENT

Founded: 1973, France

Founder: Claude Vorilhon, who took the name Rael; his book is "The Final Message."

Basic tenet: The old Hebrew phrase Elohim -- usually translated as a name for God -- should have been interpreted as a reference to non-Earthlings "from the sky." These entities are, Raelians say, responsible for the creation of life on Earth.

Membership: The organization says it has some 40,000 members worldwide, with the highest concentrations in France, Canada and Japan. Outside researchers have suggested the membership may be smaller.

Source: University of Virginia's New Religious Movements source


from cnn... read here
Clone story


so...um are you from france...


STTCT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 04:39 AM   #37
GonkH8er
192.168.0.1337
 
GonkH8er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,927
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran LFN Staff Member 
Oooooh, and look out, it's coincidence central here tonight, because if you look cloesly, and rearrange some letters, you can see that "Raelians" is just an anagram of "Ar Aliens"






GonkH8er-
Ian@lfnetwork.com
JediKnight.net JediKnightII.net
GonkH8er is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 04:42 AM   #38
STTCT
Bantha Fodder
 
STTCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 4,608
Hot Topic Starter Forum Veteran 
oooo

and 2003-1337 = 666


the world is going down in clones and nukes this year. we are doomed.

I just merely wanted to say that these cloning people that claim to have cloned the first human (EVE) also believe in the alien's gave us life. But I agree with the poster who asked...and who gave the aliens life?


STTCT is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 04:49 AM   #39
-s/<itzo-
Hmdl
 
-s/<itzo-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: psychiatric ward
Posts: 2,366
Hot Topic Starter 
Cjais why do you always feel to correct other people's opinions. this is not a debate. this thread is clearly base on opinions.

my opinions might not agree with yours but it makes perfect sense to me.

comman man, be open minded and be a little bit of understanding here.

i'm not tryin to compete with you, i'm just voicing out my views.

can't you just respect my beliefs cuz nothing that you will say will change my mind.



"It doesn't matter. Use whatever technique you like. However. Once I've said I'll kill you, your death is assured." --Himura Kenshin
-s/<itzo- is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-03-2003, 05:12 AM   #40
C'jais
Spicy Viking Boy
 
C'jais's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Soviet Scandinavistan
Posts: 4,345
This ceased to be a debate when people stopped using rational thought. Talk about souls and whatnot has no place in a rational debate. If you want this to be a debate, leave your religious "facts" far out of this.

Now, if you're so concerned about the overpopulation -- Abortions, birth control, condoms.

I'm not correcting your opinions. I'm pointing out that it is your beliefs, your religion that hinders scientific progress which might save people.


Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.

Member of The Scandinavian Clique

My LiveJournal
C'jais is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Senate Chambers > for or against human cloning?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:51 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.