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Old 05-22-2003, 06:19 AM   #1
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<GuNs>

Guns are the most important weapon in jk :P
How raven or lucasarts didnt show any screenshots of the GUNS?
What kind of guns will they include?I hope it as powerful as the weapons in jk2. And itd be nice if we can throw the saber much faster and more accurate.
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Old 05-22-2003, 06:33 AM   #2
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I was kinda dissapointed there were almost no guns in the trailer, too, but I bet there be more guns in the next trailer. I can guess what two of the guns are:

1. Some kinda Blastech similar to Han Solo´s Blastech DL-44.

2. Reapeter Blaster E-11.

I really hope they won't include any weapon like the Flechette, it doesn't belong in a Star Wars game.
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Old 05-22-2003, 06:43 AM   #3
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but..but..but we need the Flechette to do the Flak Jump Since the have the two saber thingie maybe the can put two weapons a well Maybe 2 bryars :P
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Old 05-22-2003, 06:54 AM   #4
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No wait, dual ball-spamming-flakcannons...


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Old 05-22-2003, 07:27 AM   #5
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The trailer was SP. I don't really care about guns in SP. The saber should be dominant.

But MP needs guns. Lots of guns and explosives that KILL. Can't wait to see what they've come up with!


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Old 05-22-2003, 09:01 AM   #6
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So far, we know that these guns will probably be returning (from various sources)...

1. Hand blaster - now confirmed by that trailer as being a Blastech DL-44
2. Blaster rifle - I would doubt that would be the E-11, as that's mostly an Imperial weapon...but it could be.
3. Wookiee bowcaster
4. Imperial repeater
5. Destructive Electro-Magnetic Pulse gun - the DEMP2, in other words, so I suspect there are droid enemies.

I can't find the link at the moment, but I know I got that information from somewhere (probably a PC mag article).

Anyway, there will be 2 more weapons than JO's arsenal, at the moment. That's all subject to change. They may decide to remove some and add others...

Personally, I wouldn't care at all if they ditch the Heavy Repeater, Flechette and Missile Launcher altogether. Just bring back the concussion rifle, and leave the trip mines/sequencer charges/thermal dets in there.
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Old 05-22-2003, 10:28 AM   #7
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what he ^ said.

bring back the conc (rail det too).
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:29 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by StormHammer
2. Blaster rifle - I would doubt that would be the E-11, as that's mostly an Imperial weapon...but it could be.
Well, since we see Imperial Snowtroopers in the trailer, I asume they use the E-3 Blaster Rifle.. could be something elese of course, but I actually like the E-3 Blaster.
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:14 PM   #9
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While guns are important, it has been reported that the focus of the this game will be on the lightsaber, more so than previous games.
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Old 05-22-2003, 12:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime
While guns are important, it has been reported that the focus of the this game will be on the lightsaber, more so than previous games.
Yes it has, and yes it will...and that is why I'm still marginally confused by Raven's decision to increase the arsenal in Jedi Academy, rather than reduce it. I must admit that in the later sections of JO, I did rely more on Force and lightsaber, and only switched back to guns for specific types of hits, notably ranged attacks.

I can see that lots of guns will be needed in MP...but not necessarily in SP. I guess we'll have to wait and see the reason why, and how it pans out.
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Old 05-22-2003, 01:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by StormHammer
I must admit that in the later sections of JO, I did rely more on Force and lightsaber, and only switched back to guns for specific types of hits, notably ranged attacks.
I thought this was a little wierd too...
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Old 05-22-2003, 02:46 PM   #12
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Finally, a guns thread

In Single Player the lightsaber should be the dominant weapon of focus. Obviously guns will be there for variety. In Multiplayer guns should be dominant; Raven should not deviate from this like they did in JK2.

There was an E-11 Blaster, pistol-like weapon, and that seems to be it in the trailer. Weapons that I want to see . . . .

1. Detonation packs/trip mines
2. Tenloss sniper rifle
3. Some sort of shotgun weapon found in the Star Wars universe (particularly some from the trilogy)
4. Some heavy weapons like the repeater and rocket launcher but the flechette was a spammed weapon, if they want to do anything they should create new ammo for it and reduce its total capacity
5. Stronger thermal detonators, i want to be scared by them
6. More variety of rifle weapons
7. Bring back the rail detonator to replace the Merr-Sonn rocket launcher
8. Bowcaster
9. Seekers and sentry guns

The conc rifle is a favorite item of JK but it is also a spam weapon. If you had the conc rifle in JK MP, you were almost unstoppable unless taking fire from another conc rifle.

Some MP maps (particularly FFA/TeamFFA)should also be oriented around certain weapons. There should be some sort of sniper map, enclosed map for short range fights, and a large battlefield-like map for long range assaults with heavy weapons and blasters.


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Old 05-22-2003, 06:52 PM   #13
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Well, the only "shotgun" I can think of is the repeater from DF.

Anyway, my thoughts are as follows:

1- There should be maps/servers for guns and some for sabers and some for both.

2- The TD should have an effect more like the books; it should make a hot sphere of energy that collapses, only harming those inside, not affecting those outside. I didn't like the TDs from JO.

3- The powerful guns (sniper, conc, etc.) should have specific uses and be difficult to use. This way, you would specialize in a certain gun, like saberers specialize in a certain stance. Counter Strike is a good example of this system, some lpayers are better with rifles, some with sub-machine guns, some with sniper rifles.

4- The guns should be BALANCED. There shouldn't be one all powerful gun, they should all have strengths and weaknesses.
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Old 05-22-2003, 07:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Well, the only "shotgun" I can think of is the repeater from DF.

Anyway, my thoughts are as follows:

1- There should be maps/servers for guns and some for sabers and some for both.

2- The TD should have an effect more like the books; it should make a hot sphere of energy that collapses, only harming those inside, not affecting those outside. I didn't like the TDs from JO.

3- The powerful guns (sniper, conc, etc.) should have specific uses and be difficult to use. This way, you would specialize in a certain gun, like saberers specialize in a certain stance. Counter Strike is a good example of this system, some lpayers are better with rifles, some with sub-machine guns, some with sniper rifles.

4- The guns should be BALANCED. There shouldn't be one all powerful gun, they should all have strengths and weaknesses.
I agree with everything you just said. I particularly like the maps idea, and having some maps set up for gun-play only. I am hoping that the Siege mode will offer more opportunities for ranged weapons, etc. Also, if it wasn't for lag, I'd probably lean more towards sniping myself...but on my connection it's just not possible. If I can get headshots in SP, and offline, I'll be happy.

And balancing guns is probably number one priority, so there is little spamming of particular weapon types. I have to admit that in UT2K3 the guns feel quite balanced...because I always switch between them a lot while playing. I always use that as a measure of a weapon's usefulness - if I switch to a different weapon for a slightly different situation.
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Old 05-22-2003, 07:04 PM   #15
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4- The guns should be BALANCED. There shouldn't be one all powerful gun, they should all have strengths and weaknesses.
You show me a gun you think is all-powerful, and I'll list its weaknesses and how the players have adapted to compensate for them. You show me a game you think has a balanced selection of guns, (that I've played ) and I'll explain which ones are the most powerful, and why. You see, there's no way, short of making all damage and ammo consumption EXACTLY the same, that you can "balance" a selection of weapons so that they're all equally desirable and/or effective. If you did, then they would all be essentially, the same gun. Maybe the projectiles would look different, but they'd be the same in practice. That would be boring and pointless. Different powered weapons make a map FLOW. Weapons with varying degrees of desirability make people move around in order to collect them, and ammo for them.

I like your idea about TDs though, that might be very interesting.


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Old 05-22-2003, 07:31 PM   #16
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Any kind of gun is just about a must in anything, but they need to be balanced.




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Old 05-23-2003, 12:40 AM   #17
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Re: Finally, a guns thread

Quote:
Originally posted by JDKnite188
In Multiplayer guns should be dominant;
Why?
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Old 05-23-2003, 12:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Why?
Because he likes them, presumably.

I like them too. I think the only thing wrong with the FFA dynamic of JO, gun domination and all, was the number of whiney types who frequented the servers for two reasons: To get shot, and to whine about it.


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Old 05-23-2003, 03:42 AM   #19
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if they take the the flak cannon and the rocket launcher...
that be freakin lame =/ if that guy is on rage or protect and ur trying to kill him with ur reapeater or whareveer by the time his rage or proetcts wares out so will ur ammo.........
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Old 05-23-2003, 01:57 PM   #20
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Rage poses no problem to the advanced player. Rage makes you invulnerable, but it means you're vulnerable to pull. So you can run around all you like waving your sabre, but you can't shoot anybody.


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Old 05-23-2003, 02:03 PM   #21
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Yeah some new real kewl guns could be nice but im more instreased in the saber/s but a big ass gun cant be wrong.


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Old 05-23-2003, 02:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by FiNLuX
Yeah some new real kewl guns could be nice but im more instreased in the saber/s but a big ass gun cant be wrong.
That's some sweet English!
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Old 05-24-2003, 02:47 AM   #23
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hAY! Joust cuz he spokes bad inglush dusent meen he ant no gud!

I for one would like to see the guns be more Star Wars-ish and less Unreal/Quake-ish. If we saw different types of blasters, like the backpack mounted ones, or possibly some Fett-style weapons like darts or something that would be better than adding a BFG that makes people age really fast and shoot golden laser beams out of their eyes that spawn demons from hell that hijack spaceships . I would very much like to see more believable guns. I thought the sniper rifle was a very good example of this; it fit very well into the Star Wars universe, and the way it was used in SP was very accurate to its in game description. The rocket launcher and flak gun, on the other hand don't make sense. The flak gun in UT fit very well, that was a "dirty" game; searing, painful shrapnel moving at blinding velocities made sense. JA, on the other hand is a "clean" game (probably), meaning that it won't deal with guns that practically torture their victims, but instead kill quickly and silently.


-PS- How 'bout "set for stun" as a secondary function of the blaster rifle. It would be neat to have non-leathal weapons and this could then be incorporated into missions. Just a thought.
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Old 05-24-2003, 03:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
-PS- How 'bout "set for stun" as a secondary function of the blaster rifle. It would be neat to have non-leathal weapons and this could then be incorporated into missions. Just a thought.
While they included the non-lethal stun-baton in JO, it was such a pain to use because you had to be standing next to an enemy to use it. So I'm in total agreement that a ranged stun weapon (like the one we all remember seeing in ANH) is long overdue for an appearance.

Just going around killing anything or anyone that moves against you doesn't seem totally Jedi-like. It would be nice to just have some enemies run away, and to have a stun weapon to deal with others so they can be picked up by New Republic forces afterwards (whether or not you get to see that - it's just a matter of perception). That's not to say I don't want to go around fully armed and dangerous.
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Old 05-25-2003, 12:22 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I for one would like to see the guns be more Star Wars-ish and less Unreal/Quake-ish. If we saw different types of blasters, like the backpack mounted ones, or possibly some Fett-style weapons like darts or something that would be better than adding a BFG that makes people age really fast and shoot golden laser beams out of their eyes that spawn demons from hell that hijack spaceships. I would very much like to see more believable guns. I thought the sniper rifle was a very good example of this; it fit very well into the Star Wars universe, and the way it was used in SP was very accurate to its in game description.
I agree with everything. The E-11 was practically crafted directly from the movies. The sniper rifle was also a greatly fabricated weapon taking up on the style of the Star Wars movie weapons. Both were definitely favorites

GET RID OF Q3 WEAPONS! ITS A STAR WARS GAME! Its not a fragfest unless you want to make it so.


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Old 05-25-2003, 12:30 AM   #26
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You agree with everything? Dude, I'll venture a guess that you weren't on the school debate team.

I would like to see more uses for weapons as well. Although it's too late to consider this for JA, I think it would be cool if some guns had different uses, like the secondary function in Perfect Dark for N64. I would love to shoot some rodian under the table with a blaster or hit someone over the head with the handle.
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Old 05-25-2003, 01:43 AM   #27
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Guns are a necessity for the class based (at least in Siege) for MP.
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Old 05-25-2003, 02:39 AM   #28
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Well, there wouldn't ABSOLUTELY have to guns for a class system to work. As we saw in JO, there are plenty of possible force combinations, so that COULD be incorporated, but guns are probably the better way to do it.
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Old 05-25-2003, 07:30 AM   #29
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As far as I know, we have seen ZERO (0) multiplayer footage or screenshots so far.

Everything at E3 was from a SP demo as the screenshots have been as well. The info on MP is bare bones (until recently we didn't even know what the new MP modes would BE).

The official trailer showed the BlasTech DL-44 (what Han Solo uses) pistol, and the BlasTech E-11 blaster rifle (ST Rifle) in use while riding a Taun Taun.

I would expect the same weapons from JK2 to return, with maybe one or two additions or alterations (for example: it makes sense for the DL-44 to replace the Bryar, since the Bryar is Kyle's signature weapon, and you're not playing as him this time around). It'll be interesting to see how they work and especially in MP.

Remember that Mysteries of the Sith started you with Sabers and Force, yet you still got plenty of gunplay in the mid-portion of the game. Even Obi-Wan (when it was a PC game) was going to have portions of the game where your lightsaber was either ineffective or missing, so you had to rely on "other means" of combat. ; )

I would expect this should be no different. I just hope that they don't make it so that Jedi in MP cannot use any weapons besides the saber. Even Luke used a blaster, and Kyle is a guy who uses lots of weapons, so you'd think his students would be trained that way as well...

Removing the guns would mean removing the options, removing variety, and shortening the lifespan of the game, in favor of some odd notion of purity of saber-only cultists. I love the saber, but the JK/DF series has always been about the guns as well as the other Jedi stuff. This is a new breed of Jedi, post-movies. They need all the help they can get, and they fight dirty if they need to. Some missions just require things like Sniper Rifles or explosive charges... stuff you can't do effectively with a Lightsaber.


But, as others have pointed out, having a class system alone basically proves there will be non-saber projectile weapons (guns) unless we're just going to have seventeen varieties of Jedi (though that would be interesting).


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Old 05-25-2003, 08:51 PM   #30
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"Other means"? That would rock! Not just guns, either. Hand to hand combat, guns, hitting the guy with a big rock (Ewok style).
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Old 05-25-2003, 10:49 PM   #31
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I'd go with those who want to see some Bounty Hunter style weapons in there...like whip-cords, dart-throwers, maybe even a flamethrower...

I seriously can't see any of that making it into the game, though.

I think Kurgan's right in that we'll probably have the same line-up as JO with just a couple of swaps and a couple of additions...
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Old 05-26-2003, 05:14 AM   #32
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guns and sabers have thier ups and downs :P
anyway will thre be ctf in jk3?
i heard from this mag that maybe they wont have ctf? =/
CTF IS THE MOST IMPORTANT GAMETYPE!
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Old 05-26-2003, 08:13 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by MuDvAyNe
guns and sabers have thier ups and downs :P
anyway will thre be ctf in jk3?
i heard from this mag that maybe they wont have ctf? =/
CTF IS THE MOST IMPORTANT GAMETYPE!
I'm pretty sure CTF will be in the game...but if you want to talk about CTF, please do it in another thread.
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Old 05-26-2003, 12:07 PM   #34
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I remain optimistic that Raven can come up with interesting new guns that will not simply be variations on the old themes (a different looking rocket launcher, a different looking flak cannon, etc.). A flamethrower type weapon would be AWESOME. They could use the code from RTCW. Remember, Fett had a wrist-mounted one of those. No reason we couldn't see a full-sized flamethrower. And that could be the kind of thing you could use against a rager. He comes charging at you, you whip out the ol' barbecue machine, torch him, and run away while he burns.

Instead of explosives I wouldn't mind seeing heavier blaster type weapons that have a mild concussive/explosive effect. The concussion gun is just one example of this, but I might do things with it like tweak it's rate of fire, alter its range, etc. Those are all balancing issues.

I agree that I'd rather not see one single uber weapon, the same way that I'd like to see no single uber swing with the sabre. Why? Because if you creat it, they will spam it and that will make the game BORING.

RTCW did probably the best balancing act I've seen in an MP game in this regard. You had SMGs, a sniper rifle, the heavy machinegun (venom gun), the flamethrower, a rocket launcher, grenades, etc. The balancing act usually came in terms of a crucial weakness of the weapon, or what it did to the soldiers. IE: the flamethrower was a great weapon, but was short range, and slowed you down just slightly when wielding it. The venom gun was really powerful, but inaccurate and prone to overheating. The rocket launcher was EXTREMELY powerful, but REALLY slowed you down when using it, and only had I think a max of 4 rounds. That said, you could easily hold a choke point on your own with one of those things. The SMGs were great all around weapons, but did different damage (IE: thompson had higher damage than the MP40, but a smaller clip and slower rate of fire) and were still not the most powerful guns in the game.

At least as far as the team MP game goes, something along those lines is what I'm looking for. Each class has inherent strengths and weaknesses, so no single class dominates. That'll probably be it for my MP gaming, since I don't particularly enjoy FFA or TDM. In those modes, you could tweak how the guns work as well. IE: if you pick up the flechette cannon, all of a sudden you'll be moving considerably slower, or you have a smaller max-ammo amount in Team MP. But in FFA, it works the same way it always did. Something like that. This way you have a variety of game styles that function differently not only because of the underlying style itself (CTF/DM/Obj. MP), but because of the way the weapons work as well.

That said, I'd still like to see more Star Wars-ish weapons.
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Old 05-26-2003, 03:36 PM   #35
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Ooh, RtCW?

RtCW has from what I know the best balanced weapons + team gameplay multiplayer around maybe only facing a challenge from Counterstrike.

JKIII has to have CTF! Its a classic team multiplayer mode, and JK2 had a good version of it. Obviously there will be the Team FFA (hopefully with more than three teams in one map) and some sort of Team Based Objective mode.


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JDKnite188

Hopin' LEC is going to get on track and bring us a decent JK for the JKers of 1997.
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Old 05-26-2003, 10:42 PM   #36
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A lot of people are saying that saber-dominance is ok in SP but in multiplayer the focus should be on guns. Why? The game is called "Jedi Knight". A Jedi is not inclined to use guns, plain and simple. The fact that guns are present, should be considered a blessing.

As for the concussion rifle that everyone wants back. This would completely ruin multiplayer (sabering). Do you remember what the conc rifle did? It made sabers in a gunning game obsolete - completely. You could pull the conc rifle, but I know first hand from my experiences in JK1, everyone in the game got really irritated when you would continuosly pull weapons left and right. And I'm not too selfish as to not allow people their fun.

If conc rifles are brought back in JA, the focus of lightsabers in multiplayer will be completely removed.

I do suport the idea of a seperate gaming mode, where sabers aren't even available. Since the Jedi Knight games still include guns, there will always be people who prefer the guns, seeing as how the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series is the only StarWars FPS to my knowledge. It would be fair to have a gaming mode that completely disallows lightsabers for that particular server. I'm not aware if JK2 currently has such a feature enabled. This would keep the gunners happy, and the saberists happy, as they would each have their respecting game play modes to participate in.

I would also be in favor of an optional class-based mode. Gunners vs Jedi. I know there are mods which enables this, the most popular of which is Artifex's Promod I believe. But an (optional) class system built into the game would be nice.
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Old 05-27-2003, 12:05 AM   #37
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I don't have JKI, but from what I hear, it just has a balance issue. If you rebalance all the guns, there should be no conflict.
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Old 05-27-2003, 01:38 AM   #38
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I thought that JO balanced the guns against a saber very well. The primary modes could be blocked by a saber, and the secondary modes could be countered with force powers. I enjoy games that involve both the saber and guns. Even 1 on 1 I use both saber and guns, I like to swith it up and use all available resources. The only thing I dislike is the saber throw. It just grates on me, and not that I'm a Star Wars purist or anything, but how often did a saber get thrown in the movies? Just once I think, during the fight between luke and vader on bespin (or the fight on the death star, can't remember). So, one move that wasn't even that spectacular that occupied maybe 2 seconds of the movies gets added to the game, solely because it was in the movies.
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Old 05-27-2003, 02:51 AM   #39
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The saber throw has been in way too many games for my liking. It was in Super Star Wars, for crying out loud.
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Old 05-27-2003, 03:14 AM   #40
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Definately. Light saber, not light boomerang.
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