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Old 05-22-2003, 01:14 PM   #1
SkinWalker
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Faith Healing?

I thought of making this a poll, but I couldn't think of a set of questions that wouldn't be all-inclusive...

I recently read an interesting passage in a book that discussed Faith Healing and I was wonder what experiences and opinions others have had or have about the subject.

Do you think it is real?

Can a faith healer cure someone with a disease or injury?

Is it as much in their heads as sugar pill placebos? If so, then how do faith healers cure afflictions such as blindness or gall stones?

I remember seeing a televised church program when I was much younger and the preacher was inviting people in the audience to come up and be cured of various illnesses and injuries... people approached in wheelchairs, crutches, the dark glasses of the blind, etc. and all walked away "healed."

I was quite young at the time, but even then I remember having mixed thoughts of skeptism and wonder.


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Old 05-23-2003, 06:54 AM   #2
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It is a proven theory that psycosomatic effects can ease pain and stress, and, in extreme cases, help the immune system combat disease. But as for:

Quote:
I remember seeing a televised church program when I was much younger and the preacher was inviting people in the audience to come up and be cured of various illnesses and injuries... people approached in wheelchairs, crutches, the dark glasses of the blind, etc. and all walked away "healed."
Plainly put, if they were really able to cure people, then they would be earning fat money on it somewhere in the private health care system.

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Old 05-23-2003, 12:23 PM   #3
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Re: Faith Healing?

Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker
I remember seeing a televised church program when I was much younger and the preacher was inviting people in the audience to come up and be cured of various illnesses and injuries... people approached in wheelchairs, crutches, the dark glasses of the blind, etc. and all walked away "healed."

LOL you sure that wasnt a TV drama!?!?

seriously though, i totally dig this mind over matter stuff, and my mate does claim to be able to heal (none of the religious cr@p though)

i think the key player in faith healing etc is the mind, the mind is way more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

eg Take one Faith Healer and a skeptic with a headache and the skeptic will not get healed. On the other hand you take someone who is willing to believe in faith healing and they will be far more likely to benefit from faith healing.

99% of illness is in the mind, we are born with an immune system and as such maybe we need to learn how to use it, if you catch my drift. I aint sure of the minds capacity to heal a broken leg but thats an injury not an illness.

Strange thing all this mind stuff, I'll have to think about it some more.


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Old 05-23-2003, 01:17 PM   #4
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I've seen documentarys on that televangelist healing crap, it's bull. There was this one fella, Benny Hinn, who scams so many people it's sick.

In the documentary, they followed up on many of these people who were "healed." Turns out many of them injured themselves even further during their "healing walk." There was one fella with back problems who couldnt stand up straight. Benny Hinn whacked him on the head, he stood srtaight and was cherring and jumping around... a few months later, he was in a wheel chair from hurting his back during his "miraculous" recovery.

I am not a faithful one, but I respect those who are. But when I see people who take a generally good message and twist it to their own financial gain... it makes me mad.


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Old 05-23-2003, 06:46 PM   #5
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Yes I do beleive in faith healing.
A elder at my church was diagnosed with cancer one year ago. He was told that it was Stage 4 and he would be lucky to make it past Christmas. He became terribly week, he was bed-ridden for weeks. Almost are whole church prayed for him. Then three weeks ago ( he miracoulusly had not died yet) went to the doctor for a check-up. The doctor did the test and saw there were no cancer left in his back. He was not on Kemo Therapy at the time , the doctor said he had never seen anything like this before. I think it was his faith in God that helped him and the prayers of everyone. Now he is almost regained all his strength.


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Old 05-23-2003, 08:37 PM   #6
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I don't really believe in what I have seen the Televangelists do on their TV revivals, but I believe that sometimes miracles can happen -- that faith and prayer and all of that can occur. But that is my belief. I think so many so-called "healers" just abuse the system and prey on people's absolute faith. The difference between the gentleman with cancer and the one with back problem, is that one was done by prayers and God and the other was just touched by a guy who was probably scamming everybody. There was a movie on that, with Steve martin wasn't there? Leap of Faith? It's all just a show. Which is very disappointing.


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Old 05-24-2003, 02:24 AM   #7
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I think that there certainly are some Psychosomatic afflictions that can be improved by postive mental orientation. This might include 'faith healing' but also prayer, voo doo, Navajo Sand Painting, Reiki, or just sheer will-power.

As far as what might be considered psychosomatic, I would think this would be limited to joint pains, stuttering, headaches, ulcers, and other ailments, generally accepted as being influenced by stress.

Insert postive mental attitudes, reduce/eliminate significant stress. It is a documented fact that those who die of old age frequently do so after a major event or milestone: birthdays, christmas, the birth of a grandchild, etc.

Still, I personally doubt that real, quantifiable, physical afflictions such as broken bones, deformaties, or even cancer can be cured by a "faith healer." If this could happen, it would seem necessary that an abundance of medical literature would exist to support it. As it is, there is only placebo literature, which covers the psychosomatic effects and expectations for use as control measures in experimentation.

I'm sorry Thrackan, but I would have to see the literature surrounding your friend's case. I'd be interested (genuinely so) to know how it is you came by the details of the account. The possibillities include naturally occuring immuno-response that coincided with the "faith healing;" an actual "faith healing;" a sincere belief in a supernatural occurance without an actual event; or an out-right deception.

I tend to believe in a combination of the latter two. I suspect that in most cases of alleged 'faith healings,' there is a complete deception that is concocted and re-told. After that, the human trait of "willingness to believe" perpetuated, even modified or adapted the story.

I personally am of the mind that Faith Healing is poppycock, but that there is a real benefit from a positive mental attitude to the immune system. Our moods affect our body chemistries. Our body chemistries control protein and enzyme production. The immune system relies heavily on a healthy chemistry lab for a body to be effective.


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Old 05-24-2003, 02:58 AM   #8
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Of course,Thracken, what about all of those that didnt make it through?



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Old 05-24-2003, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrion
Of course,Thracken, what about all of those that didnt make it through?

You guys will probably slam me for saying this. But its Gods will.


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Old 05-24-2003, 11:03 PM   #10
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Hard to attack faith Thrackan. That's why it is what it is.


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

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Old 05-25-2003, 01:50 AM   #11
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I've done a bit of searching... and I find no evidence of anyone cured by a "faith healer" who had demonstrated a clear, non-psychosomatic affliction before the "healing" to a medical authority and did not still possess the affliction after the "healing."

I did see referance to several people who believed that they were "healed" who did not continue proper medical attention and had died.

It would seem, therefore, that "faith healers" are nothing more than killers. They lead the believers to think that they can "cure," but in the end, nothing had changed.

I think if you want to protect your child from Polio, you can pray or you can get her innoculated. If you break an arm, you can visit a faith healer for a blessing, or you can go to the ER and have it set and casted. If you have cancer, you can travel to a 'psychic surgeon' in the Phillippines, or begin chemotherapy.

Extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence... not mere wishes to be so.



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Old 05-25-2003, 07:33 PM   #12
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True, or you can try to cover all bases and do both.


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

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Old 05-26-2003, 02:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by XWING5
True, or you can try to cover all bases and do both.
But then, when medicine has done it's work, you'll be under the misguided assumption that the supernatural was at work. I'm simply amazed at people who carry around the appendage of a rodent, knock on wood, avoid things associated with 13, pick lucky numbers/colors/shirts/etc., all in the name of "luck."

The randomness of chance has been given some supernatural embodiment. People the world over "pray" for the things that they want... if they get what they want, it was becuase a god or gods shined favorably upon them. If they don't, then their prayer was insufficient, their offering not enough, or their faith not strong enough. Skill, talent, planning, and determination aren't even considered in some cases.

Scientific method, problem solving steps, and wise decision-making skills will prevail more often than any other method. These methods are measurable and observable. There is NO, absolutely NO evidence that supports that a supernatural method of healing or achieving goals will work better than sheer chance. If I find the most faithful believer in any religion and have them pray over a coin toss and the chance of heads is still going to be 1 in 2.


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Old 05-26-2003, 05:04 AM   #14
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Ok. I wrote a reply, a great reply - worthy of a Caldecott (ummm... maybe) and then it was erased, so I will have to reply tomorrow before I kill my computer beyond all faith healing.


We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free - Ronald Reagan, Memorial Speech, Omaha Beach, 1984

Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, who shall I send, and who shall go for us? Then I said, "Here am I, send me."- ISIAH 6:8

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Old 06-01-2003, 10:42 AM   #15
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I have known, and know people who have prayed for people, who have been healed.

I think it is something you have to see to believe in the literal sense. Like UFO's and things.

However, in regards to televangilists, I don't really trust those guys. Most of it are just telemarketing adds and asking for donations. I always wonder how they can sound so desperate for donations and wear these flashy suits and have all these things. There is nothing even smart casual in my wardrobe and I don't go around asking for donations. You've got to love the good ol' excuse or if you were healed it was God, if you weren't its because you don't have enough faith. That sounds illogical to me. Since, how much faith would you have if you were healed. That would be faith, because it would be believing in things unseen. The definition given in the new Testament.

This does form a good part in why I believe in a God.


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Old 06-02-2003, 09:35 AM   #16
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ive never seen faith healing... but the theory i see in it is... it will heal you if you have faith in god... so in a way it could be considered a plaebo... but jsut like certain placebos people may have beleif in it so for them it works....

well i see things that way anyway


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Old 06-02-2003, 01:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
I have known, and know people who have prayed for people, who have been healed.
You should contact Louis Rose, a British psychiatrist who has been searching for over 50 years to find an actual case. In 1971, he wrote Faith Healing (Penguin Books) and concluded, "I have been unsuccessful. After nearly twenty years of work I have yet to find one 'miracle cure'; and without that (or, alternatively, massive statistics which others must provide) I cannot be convinced of the efficacy of what is commonly termed faith healing."

In Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle, Minnesota surgeon William Nolen, M.D. did follow up interviews and examinations of 25 people that were "miraculously healed" by a faith healer. A woman with cancer of the spine was instructed to discard her back brace and run across the stage, which she did. Subsequently, her backbone collapsed the next day and she died four months later. Of all the organic diseases that Dr. Nolan reported in his book, not one person could be helped.

The key thing is that they all thought they were healed.

I would say that you probably got duped, FunClown. Seeing isn't necessarily believing. Thousands of people each year claim to have seen UFOs, yet there is no evidence to suggest that these sightings are anything that is not already of this world. Many claim to be abducted by aliens and truly believe it to be so (some even write best selling books), but there is still absolutely no evidence that what they say is true.

Mere belief is not enough.


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Old 06-02-2003, 08:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crowy
ive never seen faith healing... but the theory i see in it is... it will heal you if you have faith in god... so in a way it could be considered a plaebo... but jsut like certain placebos people may have beleif in it so for them it works....
Good point.

But then again, believing strongly in something will heal you likewise. By using this "placebo effect", I could believe in the monsters from Quake to "cure" me.

And it'd work. Just as believing in God will work.


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Old 06-03-2003, 12:31 AM   #19
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I don't think that people that use "faith healing" heal people, but they just pass on what God gave them. As many are aware, I believe in God, and his blessings. At my church not too long ago, there was a woman with a muscle deformation in her leg. She couldn't walk straight, if she walked on her own at all. Finally, she told the entire congregation that she "had had enough." She went up front to be prayed for, and ten minutes later, she was dancing.

Yes, Dancing. I lie to you not, the woman was cutting a rug. When that was over, she walked straight all the way out of the church, and to her car, and drove home. She has been fine ever since.


I'm sorry if this story drives someone here up the wall, but it is a true story, and I'm sticking to the "God did it" theory. =)




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Old 06-03-2003, 02:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
and I'm sticking to the "God did it" theory. =)
Why?


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Old 06-03-2003, 02:17 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13
She went up front to be prayed for, and ten minutes later, she was dancing. ... She has been fine ever since.
The way I see it, there are only these possibilities... I reject the last two, however.
[list=1][*]She was a shill, in which case you've probably never seen her at your church before, nor will you again. If this is the case, ask around and you'll find it hard to verify who she was. You might get a name, but no other information.
[*]She thought she was healed, much like the lady with spinal cancer. In which case, you might see her return to church, but with a "relapse." If this is the case, then her identity probably won't be a secret, but it's possible she won't return to church so as not to have a "negative affect on those who are struggling with their faith."
[*]You didn't actually witness the event, but are re-telling it as it was told to you (by someone you trusted). I reject this possibility, since you stated that you weren't lying. That doesn't seem consistent with your character, but a possibility, none the less.
[*]She was actually healed. If this is the case, you will see her in church again, without affliction, as this will be the type of thing a religious leader would want to market in order to bolster faith. I reject this possibility, however, as there has never been a documented case of faith healing of any organic disease or affliction. [/list=1]


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Old 06-03-2003, 02:33 AM   #22
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Perhaps I should not have said "not too long ago," as this event happened a few years back, and the same woman has hardly missed a church service. Not just on Sunday, but during the week as well. She is a devoted member, and I knew her before she was "healed." Perhaps she was faking her leg injury, I don't know, but I seriously doubt it, as I have had conversation with her family and friends who helped her before she was "healed."

To Shock: My answer to "why" is this: I have always believed that there is a God. I always will. Many many many many other accounts of "first hand" witnessing to the power of God can come from my mouth right now. However, I will spare you the long post. =)




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Old 06-03-2003, 03:15 AM   #23
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Well, your answer leaves a bit to be desired. "I believe she was healed by God because I believe in God." Doesnt really make sense, but whatever...

A lot of people make more of their injuries than really should be. It's perfectly conceivable that this lady never walked on this leg before because it hurt too badly at one point or she seriously couldnt, and she just fell into a routine of walking on it poorly because that was what made it feel allright. Also, pain can be a lot in peoples minds. If they think they feel a certain pain, they usually will.

It's also conceivable that, seized in religious fervor, she overrode her now insitnctive fear of walking normally on that leg to instead put her weight on it. Aside from perhaps some stiffness and achiness (sp?), it worked fine... which was probably the case all along.

Of course, I wasnt there. This is just conjecture.

As for people witnessing displays of "power" from God in church... this is a prime example of people coming to certain conclusions before they considering anything else.


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Old 06-03-2003, 05:38 AM   #24
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SkinWalker, I think you left out [maybe on pupose] a fifth possibility. We must keep an open mind.

************

Seriously though, people do get healed.

Saying there is no documentary evidence sounds good but isn't neccessarily true.

I think the discussion should focus more on how those people got healed rather than if. There are many stories about people supposedly being healed but not really, however, there are stories where people are healed for real, still to this day. It is the latter in my view that is up to many peoples opinions.

However, by saying this, it does not imply that I do not like medical science and so forth. There are new drugs coming out all the time that help people. It is a great thing IMO.

I highly doubt that any real agreement will be made, but it is still good to read other peoples opinions.


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Old 06-03-2003, 06:26 AM   #25
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Sure. Why god should be always involved when ther're a lot better explanations with all hows and whys not circled into itself like with god.

I think this woman had a great spirit she didn't know to possess. And in the moment of excitement pain lessens if not disappears completely.

Regarding power of god, I saw some exorcism acts in a small province church and it didn't look fake. After the ritual I came to the priest and asked him about the ritual and he pointed me those who were actually faking and then explained implicitly how they do those things they did and why they do them. They all live in small villages, have no education at all and perhaps the only book they have access to and pay interest to is bible (or some cooking book). Most of them didn't even read the bible, only heard what others say. They all had some psychological injuries in the past like death of a loving one or something like this. With no other option and due to their psychological state they attribute this to satan unquestionably. And later they put it that way that satan doesn't wanna stop and persues them and seduces them while in reality the only thing they long for through these actions is attention from people. This psychological pervertry over themselves is expressed in these don't-look-fake actions. Actually the majority of congregation was considered fakers by the priest.

My opinion is that all were fakers and priest man was just trying to justify his faith to himself. Those whom he didn't considered simulants I think were better at acting. And another thing has to be considered that when people are in such a deep religious trance they don't play/act in a common way (they actually live it) but that still can not be attributed to them being possesions of prince of darkness.
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Old 06-03-2003, 11:22 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
SkinWalker, I think you left out [maybe on pupose] a fifth possibility. We must keep an open mind.
And that possibility is....?

Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
Saying there is no documentary evidence sounds good but isn't neccessarily true.
So show it to me... or at least give me a reference that I can look up. I'm not being cynical (okay... maybe a little ), it's just that I've actually done a little digging. The only documented cases I find are debunkings.

Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
I think the discussion should focus more on how those people got healed rather than if.
There's not much point in talking about how something happened if one cannot first determine whether or not it actually happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
... however, there are stories where people are healed for real, still to this day. It is the latter in my view that is up to many peoples opinions.
Opinion based upon superstition is dangerous. Peoples' lives are at stake. There are many stories about the Loch Ness Monster, still to this day. But the person who took the now famous photograph of "Nessie" has since recanted and claimed it was merely a photograph of his laborador retriever. In other words, even though it's been proven a hoax, people still believe.

Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
I highly doubt that any real agreement will be made, but it is still good to read other peoples opinions.
And that is my real interest. Belief is a human trait that I am thoroughly fascinated in. It's what makes people believe and what drives their beliefs that I find interesting.


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Old 06-06-2003, 11:04 AM   #27
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Skinwalker, I would suggest looking up Google. However, it does not have to involve the subject explicitly. You could look up ESP as well. I did see a study of prayer helping a group of people as opposed to the control group and this study looked more at ESP.
The evidence I have is of conversations with people who have either been healed or who have known someone who has.

Thus, I guess there could be a lot more than 5 possibilities. The fifth possibility was God. A sixth could be something to do with ESP. A seventh could be whatever else to think of.

A few examples doesn't really disprove a theory either. Since you would have to disprove it for all cases. I do agree that there are a lot of fakes, but there are also real cases.

Homuncul, maybe the priest is one of those people to?


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Old 06-06-2003, 12:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
The evidence I have is of conversations with people who have either been healed or who have known someone who has.
No anecdotal claim -no matter how sincere, no matter how deeply felt, no matter how exemplary the lives of the attesting person(s)- carries much weight.

Anecdotal accounts are subject to irreducible error... human fallibility. People want to believe. This is evident in many, many other facets of life. Thousands of people, for example, claim to have been abducted by aliens... yet there is not one shred of evidence. No hard, cold, tangible item that can say, "damn, that dude was abducted." They do believe it, though.

Police procedure (in the U.S. at any rate) relies upon evidence and not anecdotes. DNA samples, fingerprints, powder burns, fibers, footprints, tire treads and gloves that used to fit. It seems odd, that the only evidence that exists for things such as faith healing is anecdote. Where is the paper submitted to the New England Journal of Medical Science that says "x number of subjects healed without use of medicine but apparently by prayer?"

I saw it. I know someone who was healed. A trusting friend was there. These statements work equally well in Tarot card readings, palm readings, seances, the John Edwards show, magic tricks, UFO sightings, Big Foot sightings and sightings of Elvis.


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Old 06-06-2003, 03:07 PM   #29
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Well SkinWalker, You say that Anecdotal accounts are caused by human fallibility, because they want to believe? Well, Science is also a human fallibility in that case, because science was created and/or enhanced by humans. People believe in carbon dating,for example, yet they have no clue how old something really is, because there is no exact proof telling the age of the object.

Of course, by "Anecdotal" I assume you mean devine intervention related?




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Old 06-06-2003, 03:11 PM   #30
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'Faith Healing' does exist though it's called different from believings to believings.
You heal with energy, that's what you do. Hopefully you deal with a good healer with positive energy who heals you and give you a feeling of confidence.
This energy might be seen by sensitive persons...
It's a true thing that 'Faith Healing' exists but it's not real for the world of science. This depends on the personel attitude of the scientist who says something about this.

Oh...and yes there can be healings of all diseases but don't have to.
A good healer wouldn't promise you cure from disease but tells you that her/his treatment might support the progress of healing. And the healer would tell you always to go to a doctor first as a main thing and take the 'faith healing' as an extra treatment.
My two cents on that.
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Old 06-06-2003, 07:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Well, Science is also a human fallibility in that case, because science was created and/or enhanced by humans. People believe in carbon dating,for example, yet they have no clue how old something really is, because there is no exact proof telling the age of the object.
However, the preponderance of evidence is in favor of carbon dating (which is but one of many, many dating methods and by no means the most appropriate in many circumstances) which is only disputed by psuedoscientific claims. These claims are often touted by "creationists" who attempt to demonstrate the fallibility of science.

True, science is fallible, but within expected limitations. Science is bounded by rules. Belief isn't. Carbon dating isn't some supernatural notion to be believed in. It is a method by which the age of an object can be judged. The margin for error in radiocarbon dating methods can be as high as several hundred years, but this is acceptable when determining a date, since this range can then be compared to other methods, such as tree ring dating. Even using a date range that's 150 to 350 years wide, very useful information can be gained from radiocarbon dating. It is cold, hard data.

Humans are fallible in their beliefs because we are easily influenced by many, many outside conditions. Hallucinations are even a very real problem as it is medically proven that they can occur during times of physical and mental stress. This was even a method of introspection for cultures such as Native Americans who used the vision quest as a means to determine destinies and as rites of passage to manhood.


Quote:
Originally posted by obi-wan13
Of course, by "Anecdotal" I assume you mean devine intervention related?
I mean word of mouth or a "telling" by someone of an event. The common meaning. Supernatural events, divine or otherwise, always hinge on anecdotal account or evidence that can have more than one source (such as crop circles, Big Foot's footprint, bodily scars, etc.).

Cheers


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Old 06-06-2003, 07:56 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wanderer
You heal with energy, that's what you do. Hopefully you deal with a good healer with positive energy who heals you and give you a feeling of confidence.
And this energy is.... ? Define it. Quantify it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wanderer
This energy might be seen by sensitive persons...
Poppycock. Prove it. That seems rude, but you are allowing yourself to be duped by new age baloney.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wanderer
My two cents on that.
Not even worth that much.... again, I'm comming across as rude, but there is absolutely no evidence to support any of it. Not one case of someone with a documented, organic disease or ailment that participated in some cure that involved some mystical energy that cannot be quantified nor verified, and was later without the disease. If you can provide the evidence, I can make us both a lot of money in book royalties.

Cheers to you too


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Old 06-07-2003, 12:06 PM   #33
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boo

There are many systems humans have used for thousands of years to combat pain and illness.

Acupuncture once thought to around 3 thousand years old is now believed to be as old as 5 to 7 thousand years old.


I saw a double blind test on the PBS program Scientific American recently that absolutely proved Chiropractice is completely fake.
Yet Chiropractice is a multi billion dollar industry around the world.

Many of these systems actually do some good though. But never for the reasons sighted.

For example: Chiropractice claims to be able to realign body parts to allow the body to function properly. Acupuncture and acupressure claim to interact with "meridians" in the body and allow systems to return to normal.

Total BS. What happens is the bodies own Immune system and pain management systems are stimulated. There are countless placebos out there like faith healing, psychic surgery, chiropractice, acupuncture & pressure, magnets etc etc... that CAN stimulate the bodies own ability to improve health ever so slightly.

I personally use Chakra stimualtion exercises. Not because I believe in the Mystical energy of the Chakras but because it is an excellent cardiovascular work out. The reasons sighted by the system are wrong but the results are right.

On the same program mentioned above an example was sighted of a man from Nigeria who was taken to a hospital in New York because he thought he was dying from an evil curse. He truely believed he had been cursed and was going to die. His body was shutting down and he actually was dying. Out of desperation a creative doctor told the man they would perform a special secret ritual to remove the curse. They burned candles and dance around his bed and did some incantation. And over the next several days his undiagnosable illness began to go away. Did the Harvard trained doctor cure him with a faith ritual? Or did he trick the mans own body & mind into healing itself?


Last edited by griff38; 06-07-2003 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 06-07-2003, 08:31 PM   #34
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Faith healing could be real, you can't deny that no matter how you try, because there is no evidence against it. I don't beleive in it, I think it's BS, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen.

The "faith" part of faith healing is the most important. These people believe that they will be healed. Perhaps this reduces stress or something and frees up the body to work on the problem. It could also be that these people are consciously controlling parts of the mind that would normally be handled subconsciously. I want you to consciously think about a hamburger. A big thick one with lot's of mustard and tomatoes. You mouth has begun to moisten, no doubt. This may seem simple, but what if you could somehow apply similar principles to, say, that tumor in your liver? What if you could tell your body, "hey, that tumor is bad for me, get rid of it" and it worked? I don't believe that it would, based on the evidence, but I can't remove that possiblity from the equation just yet...

A good portion of the brain is thought to be inactive, or someting like that. What if it isn't? What if that 90% of the brain is devoted to processes that we don't yet understand? Like ESP, etc.? Just because you can't see your nose with your eyes shut, doesn't mean that it isn't there.
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Old 06-07-2003, 11:14 PM   #35
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Re: boo

Quote:
Originally posted by griff38
There are countless placebos out there like faith healing, psychic surgery, chiropractice, acupuncture & pressure, magnets etc etc...
I thought acupunture worked by stimulating nerves and making them release chemicals in other parts of the body.

As for chiropractice, your muscles can tense and go into "micro-cramps" (sometimes a nerve gets stuck as well) - it's very possible to get them to relax by massaging them.


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Old 06-07-2003, 11:38 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Faith healing could be real, you can't deny that no matter how you try, because there is no evidence against it. I don't beleive in it, I think it's BS, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen.
On the contrary, the way it works is for the people who believe in faith healing to actualize their statements into something solid that won't require a lack of rational thought to understand.

In other words: They dish up the evidence, and then we can get to work on disproving or accepting it. Until there's no evidence, we must logically conclude it doesn't exist, and as such we can't be bothered assuming or considering it does.

You don't go around believing monsters to be hiding below your bed, do you? They could still be there though, right? Does that mean we must take into account every nutcase conspiracy and feverish monstrosity from all around the world when examining actual problems? No, it does not.

Quote:
I want you to consciously think about a hamburger. A big thick one with lot's of mustard and tomatoes. You mouth has begun to moisten, no doubt. This may seem simple, but what if you could somehow apply similar principles to, say, that tumor in your liver? What if you could tell your body, "hey, that tumor is bad for me, get rid of it" and it worked? I don't believe that it would, based on the evidence, but I can't remove that possiblity from the equation just yet...
Good analogy, and I agree that this is probably also how and why faith healing really works.

Quote:
A good portion of the brain is thought to be inactive, or someting like that. What if it isn't?
Going by what credible sources I have, I must say that this is a myth. We're always using the brain to its optimal capacity in a current situation - only problem is that a given part of the brain handles different tasks (sight in the back, basic processes like hunger, body circuitry and sexuality in the inner center etc). In short, there's very little space left for unexplained processes, and it'd also be completely illogical to evolve ESP etc, when there's been no need of them to survive and no points in evolutionary history where it might have given us an advantage.


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Old 06-08-2003, 02:20 AM   #37
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Well, ESP could help me out quite a bit to survive, but I'll trust your sources anyway.

As to believing in monsters under the bed, well... There are. There are microscopic germs and so on, so something could come from under the bed and kill me in my sleep. Not bloody likely!

However, just because something is extremely unlikely given our current knowledge, doesn't mean it is impossible. People thought we could never fly a heavier than air machine, but we did (*goes on in "Final Frontier" style rant*). It is backward to say that something can't happen, because you could very well be wrong. If you condemn something because of a lack of evidence, you have a much greater margin of error than if you have evidence against it. Still, you're right, faith healing is bunk. I know this is a contradiction to what I just said, but still...
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Old 06-08-2003, 05:58 AM   #38
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Recently, I saw a documentary about using hemp for medicinal purposes. It trialed people for so much time using three different levels of hemp in a spray form. Each sample had either no hemp (the control), a small dose, and a larger dose.

Most had beneficial results with the larger. However, there was one woman I remember who had the best results with using none. She said she had never been able to get on a horse let alone ride a horse for I think it was 10-20 years. Hence, the womans mind seemed to have a very large effect. Is that illogical?

However, with people being healed, I think the evidence would be self evident. Ie. if someone is healed, they are healed. Whether it was from a placebo or not is another question. However, if it is from placebo then perhaps studies into this phenomenom could be conducted.

Thus, there was evidence of the woman being healed (riding a horse) but not exactly in the way you would expect or maybe even want.

Speaking personally, when I take parecetemol for a head ache it seems to take it away almost instantaneously. Over the years I have kind of attributed this to a placebo effect. Since a few times I thought I had taken some paracetemol and my headache went but really I hadn't taken anything.

In regards to ESP, I have dreamt stuff and seen visions that have had a stark resemblence to reality both in a literal and a figurative sense. However, I have found most occur with an event taking place at the same time, at a different place, while I am dreaming or awake I will have some thought pop in my head.

It is more rare to see a future event however, I have had one where I was given two choices and I saw one. The next day, I was given that choice and I took the other that I didn't see the result of in my dream. It was weird since it had people in it that I had never seen nor met and looked exactly the same in the dream as in reality.


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Old 06-08-2003, 07:02 AM   #39
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Quote:
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... with people being healed, I think the evidence would be self evident. Ie. if someone is healed, they are healed. Whether it was from a placebo or not is another question.
The spontaneous remission rate in cancer (Ader & Cohen, 1993) is estimated to be between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000. If only about 5% of those who went to faith healers or places like Lourdes, France (where millions of people have come in hopes of being cured... there's a place in South America as well), there should be between 50 and 500 "miraculous" cures at Lourdes alone. However, the catholic church has rejected the authenticity of all but 65 cures. Only three of them for cancer.

It would seem, therefore, that "faith" heals less than chance. If you're one of the 65 cures, however, it would be hard to convince you that the visit itself didn't cause the remission of the disease.

Quote:
Originally posted by FunClown
However, if it is from placebo then perhaps studies into this phenomenom could be conducted.
They are. See Deyn & D'Hooge.

Cited References
Ader, R., and N. Cohen. 1993. Psychoneuroimmunology: Conditioning and stress. Annual Review of Psychology 44: 53-85.

Deyn, P. P. D., D'Hooge, R. 1996. Placebos in clinical practice and research. Journal of Medical Ethics Vol. 22 Issue 3, p140, 7p


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Old 06-08-2003, 10:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkinWalker
The spontaneous remission rate in cancer (Ader & Cohen, 1993) is estimated to be between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000. If only about 5% of those who went to faith healers or places like Lourdes, France (where millions of people have come in hopes of being cured... there's a place in South America as well), there should be between 50 and 500 "miraculous" cures at Lourdes alone. However, the catholic church has rejected the authenticity of all but 65 cures. Only three of them for cancer.

It would seem, therefore, that "faith" heals less than chance. If you're one of the 65 cures, however, it would be hard to convince you that the visit itself didn't cause the remission of the disease.



They are. See Deyn & D'Hooge.

Cited References
Ader, R., and N. Cohen. 1993. Psychoneuroimmunology: Conditioning and stress. Annual Review of Psychology 44: 53-85.

Deyn, P. P. D., D'Hooge, R. 1996. Placebos in clinical practice and research. Journal of Medical Ethics Vol. 22 Issue 3, p140, 7p

Another important factor is the diagnoses for those cured by faith healing methods, have rarely if ever been documented before the "cure". Many were never seriously sick to begin with.

The woman who was able to ride the horse again is a good example. It was all in her brain.

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