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Old 05-24-2003, 09:23 PM   #1
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Fate, destiny, and coincidence

Have you ever had that feeling? That little sensation at the back of your brain you feel when something familiar comes along. Can you ever think of an event that triggered that feeling, but you don't know why? Ever had a slight feeling of deja vu? It's happened to me, tons of times. Sometimes its really weird, like this one time where I dreamed I saw the starship Enterprise getting beat down, but I didn't think much of it. Then a day later, I'm playing Star Trek: Bridge Commander and the exact same image on the screen was exactly in my dream.

My first year of high school: I was going to go to a new school and I had NO idea what the inside looked like. Then I had a dream that I was in some room and I was looking at some sort of cabinet on the floor. I didn't know what the heck it was at the time. A month later, I start high school. I was walking into my Physical Science classroom when I saw the Safety Eyeglass cabinet on the floor. And I realized that the exact same image, the angle of my eyes, the position my view was...were the exact same in my dream. This has happened many times, and then when I'm casually talking with some friends, they say they've had deja vu too. I think it happens to alot of people.

If that wasn't enough, I've had too many coincidences the past few years to call them "coincidences". Like this one time where I bought some groceries and decided to pick up a magazine too. The total cost was around $10.48 and I only had 10 dollars. I thought I was about to face an embarassing situation when I reached into my pocket and found 50 cents. The 50 cents' origin was from a day before when I bought lunch, I was going to empty out my pockets that night but decided against it. Now the 50 cents has paid for my groceries. I've also noticed other things.

I'm starting to believe that every action we do is predetermined. But you don't truly notice these "coincidences" until you figure out why they are there. I've figured it out though. These predetermined events are here to teach you. You leave some money in your pants, forget about it, put your pants in the washer, your money is now messed up. You just learned to always take your money out of your pants when you take them off. Some guy pulls a knife out on you, then "coicidentally" a flower pot falls on him and you get away. That event is there to teach you to value life.

My friend told me the other day,"Sometimes, I feel that my actions are scripted." This event occured to suggest that there is no coincidence. I was eating at a chinese restaurant and i opened my fortune cookie. I don't clearly remember what the fortune said, but it was along the lines of,"Events in your life are there to teach you a lesson". This occurred so that I don't forget what i've already told you all. Anyways, I've spouted off long enough, you guys tell me something.


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Old 05-25-2003, 02:29 AM   #2
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
-- Carl Sagan, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (1997) p. 60

I'd say that there is a logical explanation for your "feelings" of deja vu. Most likely they are related to chemical releases and reuptakes in the brain. Intuition is often mistaken for ESP, telekinesis, pre-cognition, etc., but in the end, there has been absolutely NO hard evidence of any of it. Only anecdote.

Of course, you may be the first Though experience teaches me to be skeptical.


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Old 05-25-2003, 08:26 PM   #3
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True, there is no hard evidence. Actually, I don't even think easy-going evidence exists. I'm still stumped on how John Edward does his thing but it seems possible to fake. Ouji or whatever boards, are also fake. It's been scientifically proven that they are fake. I saw it on Penn & Teller. They blindfolded the people and had them communicate on the board. Then when a producer flipped the board over , upside down. The people were putting the cursor on places they "thought" were Yes's and no's, but the places were actually on the opposite side of the board.


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Old 05-25-2003, 09:09 PM   #4
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Deja vus are mistaken for precognitive dreams. In reality, that dream never took place, but you're dead certain it did once you're in it.

Of course, past experience could be wrong. If you really wanted to prove your ability to see the future, you should write down your dreams.

Is there such a thing as choice? I don't know, but as it would seem nothing is affected without a cause, there has to be an infinite chain of causes that we cannot see, yet we're able to see it's effects. As thus, everything is running on "scripts", even our emotions.


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Old 05-25-2003, 09:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rad707_Pandaz
I'm still stumped on how John Edward does his thing but it seems possible to fake.
There was some t.v. show that showed how those and other scams work. I believe how his works is that people who work for the show stand in line with other audience members (incognito) as they wait to enter, and talk about dead relatives and such. Then they relate these stories to the host, and the audience members chair legs are marked with colored tape in a subtle spot. This is how he matches the story up with the audience member. I didn't catch the whole show, my wife related it to me, but be sure that it is a scam, he isn't talking to dead people or the like.

I also saw the ouji episode of Penn and Tellers aptly named show, Bullsh*t. Good show, I watch it alot.
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Old 05-25-2003, 09:49 PM   #6
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Re: Fate, destiny, and coincidence

Quote:
Originally posted by Rad707_Pandaz
You leave some money in your pants, forget about it, put your pants in the washer, your money is now messed up. You just learned to always take your money out of your pants when you take them off.
But YOU told us that if you would have always taken your money out of your pants when you take them off that you wouldn't have been able to pay for your groceries.

I dont think that you forget to take the money out of your pants in order to teach you a lesson about remembering to do it. I think that you learn to take the money out of your pants as a result of the time you accidentally let your money run through the wash. WE learn from our mistakes because we are inteligent creatures (sort of),we dont make mistakes because destiny wants to teach us a lesson.

Although 98% of the time money run through a washing machine ends up fine.



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Old 05-26-2003, 02:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rad707_Pandaz
I'm still stumped on how John Edward does his thing but it seems possible to fake.
He's an actor. And not a very good one, either. The people that go into his show want to believe, and so are less likely to be skeptical.... Munik's version of how to fake is it but one way, but I had come up with the hypothesis, after putting myself in his shoes (now if I want to dupe a bunch of people on television....), that he had a team of researchers in the back that checked people in the audience. I'll bet most of the tickets are sold through the mail, which gives the con artist TONS of information like name, address, etc.

Then it's just a matter of putting the researchers on the job, checking obituaries and within their own "psychic friends" network, where all the con artists share info on their marks (most people frequent more than one "psychic"). Match this up with their assigned seat, and voila!

Or its even simpler: all or part of the audience is fake. It is, afterall, television.


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Old 05-26-2003, 03:22 AM   #8
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I have a better idea although just an idea

If Rad707_Pandaz says he saw those things and explained his own observations than I say he's not mistaken and I believe him. And deja vu is not really a precognitive thing and it's not completely a fake, merely a quantum connection through your brain to "other times selves". If multiverse decision making mechanism is assumed than it's a most interesting thing to think about because it explains not only space to be multiverse but also time which brings me to explaining how it actually can happen to anyone and probably did happen. If you're connected to your clones through space multiverse why you can't be connected to the time multiverse also so having contact to your future selves from different times due to some fluctuations or something like that (I don't really know how and noone does). Further more you're connected to the other times of your clones (unconsciously of course and that is the reason why you don't get it). So when you experience deja vu it means that either you had a connection lately to your other times selves and remembered a vision or you saw some event and ocasionally a connection was established and you thought you saw it before which probably could be called a glitch of multiverse. And there's another aspect of it...

If you also have contact with your other times clones than you would probably see things there that will never happen to you. So it's really always a probability of what you may experience in future.

If that connection was infinite than probably we could call it fate with amendment of course that free will still exists there. There are many things you see while you're dreaming. Some you remember some you don't. If fate existed (infinite connection) than you would probably knew almost everything in your future life being a walking oracle but still you'd be limited and predestined to make mistakes due to probabilistic aspect of such prescience. I don't believe in classical fate because of these ideas. Still it's only a belief, I'll wait another perhaps 30 years to see a proof for that (it's very young direction in scienec but very promising).

I' m not sure about effect of dream, maybe unconsciousness works better when consciosness is asleep. And I think that such ideas are really worth to think cauze we sometimes misjudge some fundamental things like time, fate while we must be able to deal with them properly for better explanation of our reality.
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Old 05-26-2003, 03:48 AM   #9
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Used to be that someone would be able to bring up religion in almost any topic.

You have the distinction of being able to bring up the multiverse in almost every topic. I like the alternate angle you provide on topics, and the fact that I can't get Jet Li out of my head everytime I read the word "multiverse".
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Old 05-26-2003, 06:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
I have a better idea although just an idea
merely a quantum connection through your brain to "other times selves".
Poppycock.

While there are several multiverse theories that hold up, mathematically, there is absolutely no solid theory of "quantum connection[s]" to other "selves" that I've seen. If there is, please cite the literature for me.

The most likely theory of the multiverse puts our other "self" at over 10^28 meters away (or some other large number... I can never memorize it). For a quantum connection to exist, the nuclear force (I'm assuming that the other two forces, gravity and electromagnetic aren't what you're referring to) would need to be significant enough to be easily measured, to say the least, and likely more significant than our own star.

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
...clones through space multiverse why you can't be connected to the time multiverse also so having contact to your future selves from different times due to some fluctuations or something like that
Religion makes a better case with more evidence than this

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
(I don't really know how and noone does).
No sh!t.

I recently read most of the current literature on the parallel universe/multiverse theories and don't pretend to understand it all, but I did grasp some of the basics. The stuff you're talking about just wasn't there. If there some primary literature that I should read, please post what journal to look in.

J. Garriga, V. F. Mukhanov, K. D. Olum and A. Vilenkin, Int. J. Theor. Phys. 39, 1887
(2000). - Garriga, et al, discuss sending messages to future civilizations.... They discuss very physical, container transported methods and make no mention of any "quantum connection."

Even in what little I understand about Hilbert space models of mulitverses, I see no reason or logic why anyone should have a "connection" of any type with their copies.

I think the mulitverse thing can be ruled out for deja vu/precognition explanations, but if you disagree, I'd be interested in reading more.


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Old 05-26-2003, 09:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
munik:
You have the distinction of being able to bring up the multiverse in almost every topic. I like the alternate angle you provide on topics, and the fact that I can't get Jet Li out of my head everytime I read the word "multiverse".

I just want people to know more about it. And the matter of fate is so much associative to me with these matters that I can't help myself. And I don't want to try and prove it here, just to note how really deeply our reality can be explained through these theories. Yet no proof so take it easy.

Quote:
Pandaz:
J. Garriga, V. F. Mukhanov, K. D. Olum and A. Vilenkin, Int. J. Theor. Phys. 39, 1887
(2000). - Garriga, et al, discuss sending messages to future civilizations.... They discuss very physical, container transported methods and make no mention of any "quantum connection."
I only simplifyed the definition of microtubule's "quantum collapse" in which information from multiple universes is "collapsed" into a "conscious selection" or decision. Out of this you can get anywhere you want: deja vu, telekinesis, bilocation, telepathy and others. If you're interested try to read Hameroff and Penrose, they are the leaders in research. If looking for something easy to start with try Deutsch's Fabric of Reality 1997 (I don't know how many times I have preposed this book). Basic information on ORMUS materials, BEC's and microtubule you can find here:

http://www.lyghtforce.com/WhiteGold/ormus.htm

You can also read Parallel Universes Thread, there're lots of such stuff
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Old 05-26-2003, 09:43 AM   #12
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I apologize for mixing names, just I'm getting nuts when someone asks me about my beloved multiverse
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Old 05-26-2003, 07:08 PM   #13
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Old 05-26-2003, 08:04 PM   #14
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In just doing a bit of casual reading, I've looked at some of Primrose's and Hameroff's theoretical work... I must say it is interesting. Counter-intuitive, but interesting nonetheless.

The problem I see so far, is that their theory on quantum consciousness relies upon the superposition of the "microtubules," tiny tubes made of a protein called tubulin. The problem is in how long it would be possible for them to remain in superposition before dechoherence.

The fastest nuerons tend to operate at around 10^-3 seconds, but another researcher (Tegmark, 2000) has done the numerical calculations that it appears Hameroff omitted. Using data about the brain's temperature, sizes of quantum objects, and ionic disturbances, he came up with decoherence of 10^-13 to 10^-20 seconds. It would appear that for quantum computers to exist in the brain, the temperature would have to be near absolute zero.

As for David Deutsch's book, I haven't picked it up yet, but I probably will. I did, however, read some "chatter" about his theories from other scientists... they appeared to have mixed feelings. His ideas certainly seem to fall prey to Occam's Razor as being a bit too complex.

A far simpler idea is that the next nearest universe lies in space at about 10^28 meters away, and that while nearly identical to ours, there are also striking differences due to large number (but finite) of decisions that each being makes each second of their lives. Given that space is infinite, it is reasonable to assume that an identical universe will exist since the number of decisions that can be made is finite, but it is doubtful that it is the first universe we would check if possible.

The idea that parallel universes are comparable to a stack of cards, in my opinion, creates more questions than gives answers. The idea that "quantum computers" or "quantum consciousness" can communicate with them is equally doubtful. It's a bit too close to science fiction than science and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Deutsch has a following of "New Agers."

But then again.... I could be wrong

I won't pretend to understand his math, but you can look at Tegmark's work:
Tegmark, Max (April 2002). Importance of quantum decoherencein brain processes. Physical Review E, Vol. 61, No. 4, pp. 4194-4206.


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Old 05-27-2003, 03:23 AM   #15
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As I said it's out of proof yet. But as I've been studying it for quite a long time It's pretty convincing to me.

Quote:
far simpler idea is that the next nearest universe lies in space at about 10^28 meters away, and that while nearly identical to ours, there are also striking differences due to large number (but finite) of decisions that each being makes each second of their lives. Given that space is infinite, it is reasonable to assume that an identical universe will exist since the number of decisions that can be made is finite, but it is doubtful that it is the first universe we would check if possible.
I gave up with this theory long ago and don't mean to come back. For me it's far simplier Deutsch's multiverse not even because we find an implicit evidence for that but because it explains our reality as deeper as ever. Deutsch's multiverse is not limited only by quantum mechanics it is deeply valid in genetics, theory of computation, epistemology and other. It also brings better understanding through conjunction of all these new theories trully bringing us out of classic quantum theory, genetics and computation. For me that is the essence if both theories are not yet considered proven I choose one that discribes better.

Quote:
As for David Deutsch's book, I haven't picked it up yet, but I probably will. I did, however, read some "chatter" about his theories from other scientists... they appeared to have mixed feelings. His ideas certainly seem to fall prey to Occam's Razor as being a bit too complex.
Every theory related to quanta is complex parametrically but is not necessarily complex in explanation of reality. From that point of view his ideas are something everybody at least should know about. It's not that complex. His book I prepose (and he does also ) is like "multiverse for dummies". And there're of course reference on other very interesting books.

Quote:
The idea that parallel universes are comparable to a stack of cards, in my opinion, creates more questions than gives answers. The idea that "quantum computers" or "quantum consciousness" can communicate with them is equally doubtful. It's a bit too close to science fiction than science and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Deutsch has a following of "New Agers."
You think it's hard for you to get it but it's really not. You judge it by the way the exterior of it looks while you should try and see what's inside. I got to read it ocasionally, I never ment to think about multiverse before. And I considered it science fiction for a long time myself.
And think about that. Everything concerning deepering of our reality always gives birth to more questions than answers. That's our growth of knowledge and it's not something we should be afraid of but something we should long for (if of course theory that carries these new questions explains better than the previus one)
And I believe Tegmark's work also and think that it'll only put some correctives in quantum connsciousness or would be proven wrong in time due to some property we haven't yet discovered. But the theory will survive. Thanks for Tegmark's work by the way, an interesting one.
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Old 05-27-2003, 04:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Everything concerning deepering of our reality always gives birth to more questions than answers. That's our growth of knowledge and it's not something we should be afraid of but something we should long for (if of course theory that carries these new questions explains better than the previus one)
In that much, we certainly agree. I must say, it is refreshing to have a discussion, even a debate if you will, without the automatic invocation of gods and religions.

I fear that my own country and society is fast becoming stupid. Kids don't like going to school, we're "teaching to the test," college enrollments in the sciences is down for native born Americans, etc.....

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Thanks for Tegmark's work by the way, an interesting one.
I agree... I would never have read it had I not read your post on Deutsch, et al. I do plan to read his book... perhaps this summer. I've got quite a stack of summer reading piling up! But another benefit of posting and reading in these forums is the education one can get simply by researching a topic to confirm or verify...


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Old 05-27-2003, 07:55 AM   #17
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I fear that my own country and society is fast becoming stupid. Kids don't like going to school, we're "teaching to the test," college enrollments in the sciences is down for native born Americans, etc.....
The same with mine. I know exactly what you feel. I guess it is somehow a world tendency (Japan maybe an exception). I just don't get it. We live in time where our knowledge must grow in progression to what we knew say 50 years ago. If then we had to know 10 times more than say hundred years from that then now we have to study a lot more and know 100 times more than 50 years ago. And the further we go the more we must know. If 2000 thousands of years a man could possibly know anything in the world then now you couldn't know everything about genetics not mentioning biology as whole.

I can name perhaps one friend from my surroundings that does feel the necessity for knowledge. Other than with him I can't really debate on anything. Most of the "advanced" people can talk a bit on 70 years of communism (I guess native americans are the same story cauze they're communists too)(or impressionists). People don't understand what the word "culture" means. Especially russians cauze they know everything about how to make vodka or set something on fire or go camping or can fix anything with their hammer (mostly of course with bare hands) and mostly don't know much bout their own history not telling at all to answer a question who's Columbus or who wrote Don Quijot. They only know something that circulate in mass pop culture (they can answer that Bram Stocker wrote Dracula cauze the saw a movie). But that's not enough... it's the top of the iceberg while all of it's base and bigger part of it is hidden from them. They don't have this base.

And isn't our ability and will to gain knowledge a greatest gift ever? The world is playing with this ability. Most of it lives according to the law of natural selection: "use it or lose it". In my university I mostly study economics but if I encounter something new like biology, history or religion I go for it and just sit and won't get up till I get the result (an answer to the question). And it doesn't take much time or extreme effort, it's not an abuse, it's not boring at all. It's fun!

Quote:
But another benefit of posting and reading in these forums is the education one can get simply by researching a topic to confirm or verify...
Sure. It's educative and exciting to debate. I'm like looking here for something that I missed in life

P.S. And I don't like tests either though I'm not very often to meet with them. In Russia a test is a set of questions with no variants of answers so there's no probability at all that you can pass it.
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Old 05-27-2003, 06:37 PM   #18
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What is truth? There is only the Experience and the Perception.

Truthfully, only the perception matters.


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Old 05-27-2003, 07:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by wudan
What is truth? There is only the Experience and the Perception.

Truthfully, only the perception matters.
That's just how you perceive things.

But you don't really exist anyway, so why am I even typing this?


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Old 05-27-2003, 09:24 PM   #20
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Well i wasnt sure how i felt about fate and all that jazz, so i held off from writing anything of great substance about it.

hmmmmz, I do get strange things ocurring and happening around me that i cant really explain. For instance I was sitting there trying to remember that film with Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway in it, (it was Bonnie & Clyde btw) and my mate just started whistling that tune called; You're so Vain (i forget who sung it originally) Now call it coincidence or whatever but that tune was written about Warren Beatty, I hadnt told him about that film and he had no idea he was in that film anyway, but just as i thought of it he whistled that tune none the less.

Is that a coincidence? maybe, but its definitely a bit funky...

Also I love the English language and it pleases me to find new and interesting words.

I remember reading Dr No by Ian Flemming and there was a word that I'd never noticed before "Chagrin" which apparently means annoyance or something similar. After i read that word and looked it up I noticed it in loads of places, it was really weird I heard it like 5-6 times in a week on TV. This was a word I'd not heard in 28 years before then. This happens with a lot of words that i pick up and i truly cannot explain it.

I put a lot of faith in logic, being as logic is a scientific thing, but fate defies logic as far as i can see, yet there is definitely some greater power (Not god) at work.

I think i'll read the bit in Sophies World about fatalism again and see what i can come up with


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Old 05-27-2003, 09:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jah Warrior
After i read that word and looked it up I noticed it in loads of places, it was really weird I heard it like 5-6 times in a week on TV. This was a word I'd not heard in 28 years before then. This happens with a lot of words that i pick up and i truly cannot explain it.
Yeah, I get this all the time.

I always took it to be me just not having paid attention to it before then.


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Old 05-27-2003, 09:32 PM   #22
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I know what you mean Jais, but i really look into words, they fascinate me. I'm fairly certain I would notice these words. I'm highly observant, well as observant as a stoner can be anyway.

I really dont like teh idea that things are pre-ordained as it removes the necessity to try or to have goals, but I cjust cant dismiss these odd things that happen.


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Old 05-28-2003, 04:43 AM   #23
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Coincidence? I think not

I say telepathy is a common thing in small amounts everybody possess. It has nothing to do with the divine power.
So Jah, while you were digging the song your brain ways transmitted the most intense informational process. It's like breathing if you gasp out the air strongly it can reach far distances. And you can't actually not to breath. And your mate was just adapting to the "conversation" with you like it's done in verbal conversation. When to people share a a talk they adapt to each like this: breath in tact to each other, their heart beat is almost the same, if one does a casual hand movement, his partner does something like that too. Of course it's funky, but I think not even scientist would debate about this. (watch me I didn't mention multiverse but I assumed it)

What's fate physically?

Por ejemplo, we've got Chewbacca who's going to touch this dead beast on a bush and lead himself and his friends to the ambush. He's thinking with his stomach and "decides" to taste the meat. But we know what's going to happen cauze we've seen it for 200 times. So we perceive it like fate for Chewbacca while he thinks he's deciding something on his own so that he has a freedom of will. (please no commentaries on how relevantly I can use a negative printed Chewbacca cauze it's an abstraction and so logically I can give any property to it). It's a main property of fate that I attribute to Chewbacca that he can't choose. Chewbacca here can't choose anything but tasting this beast (he hasn't got that in his script). But Chewbacca is blind to that, he's under the illusion that he's in control of his actions.

So what to do with that? For me it was really a trick of how anything in our universe can be explained a bit differently and necessarily deeper than it was before. That we need to abandon classical universe for better and deeper explanation of fate and free will and other fundamental aspects of our reality. Actually I've already discussed this problem and I thought to prove my point implicitly. But I don't want to gloom over people minds intentiously so if anyone is interested I can speak about it or you can find it here somewhere in SC.

Quote:
What is truth? There is only the Experience and the Perception.
Truthfully, only the perception matters.
Again there's a word OBJECTIVE and a definition for it. Many people can't understand how being totally subjective we can describe anything as objective (to be true universally independently from us). I think any fundamental thing has the right to be called objective. This objectiveness in physics now is measured only by the accuracy of it's explanation and maybe accuracy of it's predictions (but predictions sometimes trick us). And they are not subjective because they're only electrical impulses interpreted by our brains and nothing we perceive s actually real. Everything's probabilistic and how probably accurate we can tell anything to be objective difines whether or not we can call it true. I think...
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Old 06-06-2003, 01:14 PM   #24
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Well.

The whole Multiverse idea is pretty good. It makes sense most of the time. Since if there are other dimensions that don't follow our dimension's physics...anything is possible. When you think about it...What is beyond our Universe? The universe is constantly expanding, thus it has a limit. If the universe was a sphere, than what the heck is beyond it. I think it may be a bigger world. Another universe that links all the universes together.

I still think that there's a certain part of the brain that most of us haven't tapped into. I'm not sure though, but it's plausible.


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Old 06-06-2003, 02:58 PM   #25
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Some things that happen are 'scripted' in your life because that's the way it is. Other things can be influenced by you through your own will.
Your destiny lies in your hands after all.
That you're able to foresee things lies in our nature.
We are spiritual beings and you and your friens are the next generation. In future these abillities will show up more often by humans.
You know...when the teacher in school tells you that everything is based upon chemical and physical reactions, this hasn't to be the truth...
But you shouldn't be afraid of this. Live with it. And don't tell it too many people because most of the people can't deal with it.
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Old 06-07-2003, 08:36 PM   #26
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Sometimes, I will make reference to something from TV in conversation, then that exact same thing will be on at the same time I am watching the tube. I don't know why, and I really can't make myself wonder, because if I do, I'll get caught in some deep moral conflict based on Homer Simpson falling down the stairs.

Anyway, if the Universe was a sphere, and there are no other universes in existance, then there would be nothing beyond it. Nothing is very hard to comprehend because no one knows what it is (because it isn't anything). I can't even begin to get my mind around "nothing"; it is simply beyond human capacity.
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Old 06-09-2003, 01:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
Sometimes, I will make reference to something from TV in conversation, then that exact same thing will be on at the same time I am watching the tube. I don't know why, and I really can't make myself wonder, because if I do, I'll get caught in some deep moral conflict based on Homer Simpson falling down the stairs.

Anyway, if the Universe was a sphere, and there are no other universes in existance, then there would be nothing beyond it. Nothing is very hard to comprehend because no one knows what it is (because it isn't anything). I can't even begin to get my mind around "nothing"; it is simply beyond human capacity.
if you think about nothing, and it's possibility, for too long you'll find yourself near dead on the ground for about 2 minutes, very interesting. i was sitting in class once thinking about this kind of thing then i kind of got into the whole nothingness and the universes beginning and i thought very deep into it and according to my class mates and teacher i fell to the ground and for about 30 seconds my heart completely stopped beating then started pulsing very fast and i was down on the ground for about 2 minutes not moving even the slightest bit. they said that they tried to pick me up and my body was stiff as a board. but during this time i was "out" i envisioned interesting things which i still can't explain. they seemed as a dream. perhaps all of our life is just a dream that we live in, our "dreams" when we experience them seem very real and stick to the same principles of time. well perhaps these lives we lead are nothing more than dreams that we envision. also perhaps when we "dream" that is actually are reality. this whole esp thing is a good case but not good enough to toss up for likelyhood. i mean i have the same kind of situations. i sit in class or im in the car im talking about a show on tv as an example of something and later that episode is on. i keep thinking numbers during the day and they all end up being answers to problems in my math class. but i think it's more of that our mind makes these things happen to us. or more of that it's just that things happen. i also though think of just random numbers with no signifigance. i always think about things beyond my own possible comprehension but i think that it's more of that i'm making things work.


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Old 06-09-2003, 05:30 PM   #28
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I honestly don't beleive in Fate. Not you WILL walk over there sort of fate. I think maybe there is a sort of fate, that we do have control over. Have you ever felt that you were mean't to do something. You knew you had to do it, but you sort of let go and didn't do it.

e.g.

In school today I said something by accident that my friends jokingly made fun of. Then it got kinda out of hand and I felt as if I was mean't to snap back as I've done many times before, but then I remembered thats what my friend would want, just so he knew he was getting to me. So I sat there, and the next time he spoke I just said whatever and told him to shut up and felt really different.

I don't beleive in Destiny. I mean, I really don't think some people's purpose in life is to be a 'refuse collector'.

As for coinsidence. I'm always getting that feeling of deja vu, and Usually when I see something or hear something that normally I would ignore, although It would be something I haven't heard either for a while, or forever. Then within the next few days I would hear or see it again, and suddenly remember that I heard it the other day, and I suddenly feel aware of things.

Weird.

Insane Sith,

I don't really think that we live our lives in a dream, here are some reasons:

1. If it was JUST a dream, then why would other people be here? I mean mentally, if everyone was having a dream why is everyone else in that dream?

2. Unless you mean that you are all made up, which means that I am the cleverest person in the world for inventing everything ever made, using the power of imagination alone. And I'm not evil or nice because when people Die then they arn't really dead, or haven't really been helped. It also must mean I came up with that theory of yours, which I don't beleive. So I'm contredicting myself.

3. If your theory is slightly true then maybe we are in a'Matrix'. We could all be plugged up to some sort of system. A game. We might all be playing a game. Although the game is so intense that we forget we chose to play it, and forget it's a game altogether. Just think, if you lead a really sad life then when you wake up and meet your friends to discuss all the cool stuff you did then you had a really sad go at it.

Ok I'm talking crap now.

I'm going to try you're passing out suggestion, I could use a severe break from life.


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Old 06-09-2003, 09:21 PM   #29
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InsaneSith, not to go off topic, but did that really happen? If so, did you seek medical attention? If you had a seizure or something, that might explain your "dreaming".

Deja Vu is something I have experienced a few times. This one time, I remember (and this could just be my memory distorting the actual facts) seeing something and had this strange feeling that I would have Deja Vu involving it in the future. It was really weird, but I attribute Deja Vu to mixed memory messages. What I mean is, like, you see something and you remember it, then you see something similar, and the memory from the first thing gets altered to make it seem the same as what you are looking at. I hope that made sense.
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Old 06-10-2003, 03:25 AM   #30
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Quote:
I don't really think that we live our lives in a dream, here are some reasons:

1. If it was JUST a dream, then why would other people be here? I mean mentally, if everyone was having a dream why is everyone else in that dream?

2. Unless you mean that you are all made up, which means that I am the cleverest person in the world for inventing everything ever made, using the power of imagination alone. And I'm not evil or nice because when people Die then they arn't really dead, or haven't really been helped. It also must mean I came up with that theory of yours, which I don't beleive. So I'm contredicting myself.

3. If your theory is slightly true then maybe we are in a'Matrix'. We could all be plugged up to some sort of system. A game. We might all be playing a game. Although the game is so intense that we forget we chose to play it, and forget it's a game altogether. Just think, if you lead a really sad life then when you wake up and meet your friends to discuss all the cool stuff you did then you had a really sad go at it.

Ok I'm talking crap now.
This is no crap at all, These are ideas people thought for hundreds of years in search for reality. Solipsism theory which Sith started is just another alternative for discribing reality which was abandoned solely because of it's insatisfactory approach. Furthermore this theory can not be logically refuted and the only
bad side of it (for scientists) lies in it's explanatory part and not deductive.

Logically all 3 statements can justify solipsism, Por ejemplo like this:

1. Everyone else is in that dream because you invented them, gave them characters like you do in normal dream

2. You may not be the cleverest man in the world for inventing people because simply that VR machine which holds you in this pseudo reality gave you memory of some other people, your relationship with them, invironments or even different laws of physics. In principle, in quantum computation these VR features were proven. Furthermore it was proven that it's possible to create a universal computer working by finite means which can render any logically possible invironment.

3. Maybe we live in Matrix. Then our ability to know the truth would solely depend on accuracy of this VR, quality of image, appropriare interactivity, laws of nature we believe in. In movie Matrix it is perfectly seen that matrix is not perfect it has glitches, that's how people could differ the VR if they looked closer.

It seems to me that our reality we live now is quite accurate but I didn't really looked for a way to refute it. If I try can I really do this?

But in the end I don't think that Deja Vu is a sign for us that we live in inaccurately rendered reality-prison, I think it's more satisfactory to think of our reality to be as it is... for now...

I too don't believe in fate which I think to be merely a justification for people's actions and will to "flow with the river" while they can climb mountains on their own. And for me it's obvious the fatal weakness of fate with multiverse involved or without one. Mostly it lies in poor understanding of freedom of will cauze commonly it is taken as a right to choose just randomly from some collection of enteties.
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Old 06-19-2003, 01:26 PM   #31
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Well I've read some of the above posts and thought I'd give my views on it and similar things.

Fate:

I think a very crude defination of this is that it is a term used to state that our life, our choices, actions, emotions and lifespan is already determined. My opinion is that to a certain degree there is such a thing as fate. As others have mention a chain reaction of events follow an event and occcur before one. As I like to say "Things dont just happen by chance, there is no chance, everything that happens is a direct result of something else." However I do believe that we are freely making our own choices about how we act or react. But wait you say, I just said that everything that happens is a direct result of something else, yes but we still choose to act on situation or to not act on them. So if you take a scienific approach to this you will eventually conclude that every single thing that happens is a direct result of something else and you will find that you will never be able to come up with a single event that started it all. This means that quite possibily that the religous stance is right and that we already have our lives already set out by God or Gods.

Destiny:

Well similar to fate but destiny implies that you have a purpose to serve during your time on the physical world and requires you to a degree to accept that fate exist and occurs.

Deja vu, Coincidence, ESP, etc...:

First off I'm believer in ESP as I believe that it is the hidden talent we all have but cant really tap at the current time, and in my opinion thank goodness, just imagine how much more damage we could do to everything if we did have ESP. Deja vu well I've had them. I have forseen places That I never seen before then weeks after I've that dream I visit the place and it is exactly how I "forseen" it. I cant see events in the future but places I can sometimes. The most recent episode was 1-2 years ago. I had a dream one night which was different to my normal dreams but normal for these "visions". How do I know they are different to my normal dream well because during a dream I'll stop dreaming midway through it and everything will go black for what seems like 30 seconds then I see the place I'll visit in the near future, once I've had a 30 second look (it seems like a 30 second look) it will go black again for some time and then I'll wake up and its morning. Like I said it was 1-2 years ago and one evening I "f"forsore" the backyard, shed/games room there and the lawn that was at this place that I've never ever seen before. Its day time and it feels as if I am there, no know its the feeling that it real coz you can feel all your body's aches and pains and you can feel the things around you. Anyway about two weeks later two of my cousins die if a house fire. We attend the funeral and get convenced by our grieving Aunty and Uncle to go to the wake which is at their mates place as their place was in need of repair. Anyway we walk out to the back veranda and as I walk out side I notice it was the place in my dream only it was night time. It gave me a cold chill down my spine.

It seems I also get what people call a sixth sense, you know that feeling that something bad is comming up. Well I get that when every a relative passes away or when something life altering is going to occur and I again get that feeling a few weeks before anything happen.



Considering that I'm a scientist many would believe that I'm a nutter for my views and for being religous as well (no I do not follow any church as I have come to believe they are all corupt now and do not follow their God/s teaching.)

Anyway thats my input for now. As it is late at night I may have type things which dont make sense or you would like me to rant on about it a little more, if so point it out and I'll clarify it tomorrow some time.


Siraious Altear



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Old 06-20-2003, 12:58 PM   #32
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I'll make a full post tomorrow... I've had some pretty whacked experiences... but ill just post this up now. Weird stuff, but youve prolly already seen it


__________________________________

MYSTERY OR STATISTICAL CO-INCIDENCE?????

The incidence of co-incidence is so prevalent, that it cannot be considered co-incidence.

__________________________________

Abraham Lincoln was elected to congress in 1846
John F Kennedy was elected to congress in 1946

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860
John F Kennedy was elected President in 1960

The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain 7 letters.
Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both their wives lost children whilst living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both were shot in the head.
Both were shot in the presence of their wives.

The secretary of Lincoln warned him not to go to th theatre.
The secretary of Kennedy warned him not to go to Dallas.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

Both were assissinated by southerners.
Both were succeeded by southerners.
Both successors were named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808
Lyndson Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939

Both assassins were known by their 3 names.
Both names have 15 letters.

Booth ran from the theatre and was captured in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was captured in a theatre.

Both Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trial.

_________________________________


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Old 06-20-2003, 03:08 PM   #33
C'jais
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Siraious
yes but we still choose to act on situation or to not act on them.
Do we?

There's nothing about magical about emotions and our brain, y'know - s'all chemicals until proven otherwise.

Though I'm embarassed to say this, they actually explained it fairly well in the new Matrix movie

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

- The Merovingian talking about causality and the illusion of choice, and the Architect talking about how Neo had already "made the choice".






You a scientist? What field are you in?


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Old 06-23-2003, 02:39 AM   #34
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Okay, somehow...my precognition or whatever is getting stronger and occuring more. It might have something to do with the fact that school is over and I have alot less stuff on my mind. Case in point: When the phone rings, I've been able to "sense" who's on the other line before I pick up the phone. Actually, I don't pick up the phone until I "sense" who it is. It's a little weird. If a telemarketer is calling, I just sense emptiness. My doctor called me, and I knew it was him after the second ring. I'm not sure how, but i just "knew". My mom called me, and I "knew" it was her. I've also had the luckiest guesses with the time. My clock always reads wrong, so I usually use the clock on my TV instead. My Mom asks me the time and I look at the clock that is wrong and just sorta blurt out "4:07". Then I looked at the TV's clock to see if it was right. It was. I didn't try it repeatedly, then I would just feel dumb.


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Old 06-23-2003, 04:27 AM   #35
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I say you're confusing intuition with something more. Humans are the most intuitive animals on the planet. We seek out patterns in our lives and attempt to make sense of them, both consciously and subconsciously. More likely you are experiencing a little bit of coincidence sprinkled with a little pattern recognition..... I'm usually good at guessing what time it is, but I attribute that to a good internal "clock" and ability to recognize daily patterns (i.e. certain things happen routinely around the same time each day).

The telephone thing is probably a bit of coincidence along with subconscious recognition of patterns... mom hasn't called recently, she usually does, "ring," there she is. Precognition is simply pattern recognition and coincidence. Anything else suggests some sort of undefinable, unmeasurable energy. Such a thing doesn't exist. Even dark matter can be measured.

But on the off chance that you are psychic, you should take the million dollars from James Randi!


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Old 06-23-2003, 07:33 AM   #36
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Quote:
C'Jais:
Though I'm embarassed to say this, they actually explained it fairly well in the new Matrix movie

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

- The Merovingian talking about causality and the illusion of choice, and the Architect talking about how Neo had already "made the choice".
It's funny to say that but Merovingian is program that lives in VR, that knows causality only to the point relative to his birth (and not the beginning of first Matrix), and that VR is a system of control colloborated by the machines investigating human subjective psycho by the machine's with not fully accurate instruments which they themselves use to perceive reality as they "like". So actually the problems we have with defining fate and free will is also a machines problem. And only mechanism for such a machine to difine it's existence is it's purpose. Again for a machine purpose is in it's program (which it can override sometimes in Matrix). The purpose of humans is hidden, we only know of our genetic purpose of bearing knowledge through our genes, other than that other purposes we create (choose) ourselves. While I think that our program is, what was defined by our conscience evolution, to find our purpose. For a machine it's a bit easier in real world while firstly they recieved an inicial program from us and so they have an direct inicial state from where to build their conception. We fortunately or unfortunately will probably never be able to difine our inicial state.

So i think what Wachovski did in Matrix was that they presented with a collection of ideas mostly approved by society and adressed a problem of what to accept: fate or free will, causality or probability. Probably you have just chosen a concept of a machine living in a world where it can observe causality directly (as a property), while where humans live it's impossible. And some people hearing Morpheus talking about faith accepted a concept of religious people and once again deeepened themselves in the truths of the Bible.

So I think Matrix is not about choosing yourself a concept but just to see how wonderfully unpredictably can causality affect some people that they make up such an interesting connection between such diverse and contradictory things.
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Old 06-23-2003, 10:31 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by C'jais
You a scientist? What field are you in?
Well I think i over stated that a little I'm really trainee scientist (3rd Year Uni student), My field is Medical Science, but I more leaning towards medicine as thats where I'll head once I finish my science degree.



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It creates and it destroys.
It has no sides and is far beyond such a thing.
It is the Force."

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