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Old 07-12-2003, 11:50 PM   #81
ET Warrior
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Perhaps you could actually explain what you mean by that, or at least explain the quote of yours I have in my post above.



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Old 07-13-2003, 02:00 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Perhaps you could actually explain what you mean by that, or at least explain the quote of yours I have in my post above.
Suffice to say that the notion of mankind deserving its existence is either indicating that we must answer to some higher authority or purely subjective to oppinion.

As for your quotation of me in your former post, I will ask you to justify pain. I'm not talking about everyday disappointments like 'Dang, I didn't get that job I wanted' or 'Aww, my dog died'; I'm talking about the many millions through history that have experienced despair, hunger, disease, torture of body and mind, persecution, terror and profound loss.

What I was saying with that quote is that Christianity, though merely a symptom of the disease that is determined ignorance through fear, is persistently keeping us delusional in the vain hope that we all might once and forever thenceforth be happy, i.e. Utopia.

Add to this that happiness is the wrong thing to pursue. One should seek contentment, the balance point. Two ways to accomplish that; be one with everything or don't be at all - either works for me.


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Old 07-13-2003, 03:46 PM   #83
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So the fact that people believe there is a chance for them, after they are dead, to live a life of complete bliss is a disease of humanity?


I dont understand exactly how this affects humanity as a whole. It seems like it would help a lot, because this prevents people from completely despairing and killing themselves. Even if it's all wrong and their is no God, believing in a God is what keeps some people alive.



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Old 07-13-2003, 04:49 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
So the fact that people believe there is a chance for them, after they are dead, to live a life of complete bliss is a disease of humanity?
I wasn't referring to Utopia being some paradise after death; I am talking about life, both that of the the past and of the here and now.

Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
I dont understand exactly how this affects humanity as a whole. It seems like it would help a lot, because this prevents people from completely despairing and killing themselves. Even if it's all wrong and their is no God, believing in a God is what keeps some people alive.
You're right, you don't exactly understand. You hold the same dogmatic belief like that of the majority of the world: That life, or rather conscious existence, is unquestionably precious. As you say, "believing in God is what keeps some people alive", and I will add, "despite the pain"...That is exactly the crime of Christianity.


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Old 07-13-2003, 06:22 PM   #85
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i personally find it humorous that people think that when they die they continue to live in another plane of existence, instead of rotting in the ground. but still even if there was a life after death i think that would be terribly boring after a while.


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Old 07-13-2003, 07:58 PM   #86
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Originally posted by InsaneSith
i personally find it humorous that people think that when they die they continue to live in another plane of existence, instead of rotting in the ground. but still even if there was a life after death i think that would be terribly boring after a while.
I agree with everything but the boring part; I'm convinced eternity in any 'place', Heaven or Hell or what have you, can only lead to pure and total insanity.


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Old 07-14-2003, 01:51 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jubatus
I agree with everything but the boring part; I'm convinced eternity in any 'place', Heaven or Hell or what have you, can only lead to pure and total insanity.
hell i'm bored just being in this plane of existence practically all the time
hence my name and location


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Old 07-14-2003, 03:18 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
So the fact that people believe there is a chance for them, after they are dead, to live a life of complete bliss is a disease of humanity?
This, in my opinion, is why the world is so fouled up. Of the 6 billion people that are alive, nearly every one of them has some hope that they will live past their deaths. Most of them get this nonsense from religion (christianity, budism, hinduism, islam, [insert missing cult]).

If people had it in their heads that they might get 70+ years if they are lucky and healthy, they might just live their lives more carefully, healthfully, and compassionately. Because, in their minds they know, "this is all I get."

The only way to live past your death is to leave a legacy. If your memory and deeds are honored through time, then you live on. Thomas Jefferson is still living. So is Charles Darwin, Einstein, Ptolomy, Da Vinci, Aristotle, Gengis Khan, Alexander the Great, and even Hitler.

The legacy of the latter three is quite telling of their deeds.... though I've no doubt that Hitler wanted to be remembered a little better, he earned what he got.


Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
I dont understand exactly how this affects humanity as a whole. It seems like it would help a lot, because this prevents people from completely despairing and killing themselves.
If anything, it seems to encourage despair and suicide among other societal taboos. By it, I'm referring to religion.

Quote:
Originally posted by ET Warrior
Even if it's all wrong and their is no God, believing in a God is what keeps some people alive.
But it's what kills many and encourages many more to not bother with this life, because, as long as they get forgiveness before their time is up, they can go on to "eternal life."


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Old 07-14-2003, 05:31 AM   #89
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It bothers me why people are so close minded and not creative in their approach to existencial matters. Why they can't think of it another way either than feeling. Why they can't understand (and probably don't want to) how can it be a different form of existence with different properties, how something can exist not breathing, not feeling, not understanding. They think: "That's f**king boring", but they don't understand that they judge that from an angle of their own existence. Not that we can do otherwise, just we need to be open minded to be able comprehend such matters. How can a man exist in latters? It's very simple. No dispair here, no emotion at all, no thought, it's just different from how we do it. Is it boring? One could never tell, this category is only for humans.
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Old 07-20-2003, 04:12 PM   #90
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well.... look at it like this, Hell-burn forever thinking about your sins, heaven-live in peace forever knowing your sins are forgiven... slight difference dont you think.


Christianity for the weak? We have strong virtues, loyalty, trust, LOVE! So were weak... but were willing to die for God?


Another thing.... CATHOLICS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. How many times do i got to say this, they are considered christians. There bible is different to ours!!!!!!!! Which yes, allows them to burn people to death, kill people, and yes they contradict themselves constantly. Yes, they disobey there bible, with forgivness of sins, the god your supposed to worship, mary, how to get to heaven, and many more things. Yeah, they tell you whats right and wrong, but dont dare tell the church whats wrong, i know all of this! Dont get them confused with christians who are trying to follow the way God commanded them. Yeah it s a denomination (there shouldnt even be denominations!!!!) but catholics arent christians, they are catholic... believe me, ive done research on this. Hey, disagree with this, post and prove to me why your a true christian?



Quote:
They think: "That's f**king boring", but they don't understand that they judge that from an angle of their own existence.
Mostly everything is perspective, thats why the bible is misinterperated, there is only one 'true' interpertation (prolly misspelled) (like with the kill all gays.... which ill explain in a min) Many people interperate the bible in many different ways, but that doesnt mean that there way of interperating its right. I mean, theres only one interperatation of it, but you could think it means this... when it means that.

About the gays, leviticus is in the old testament, it was a rule for the irealites. Its not applyed any more. God saw there needed to be a new system, so he made it, with Jesus. In Romans, the death Paul is talking about is Hell. Hell is the 2nd death. But that doesnt mean just cause your gay youll go to hell, theres always the other path, turn to christ.

Someone said about born again christians not being able to drink and stuff..... bull. EVEN CHRIST DRANK WINE!!!!!!!!!! remember the wedding? THis was a catholic who said this, the way he spoke about born agains was like they were different.


Quote:
I have to address this argument now, it's been used too many times to be merely amusing anymore. Asking people that they have to disprove something that hasn't been proved, nor even observed, is absurd, and to use the argument that there is no proof of the nonexistence of something not proved, nor even observed, is equally absurd.
give me a break! You cant observe the big bang! Crap, you cant even prove half of science all the way, so that means theres a chance. Untill you prove %100 that there was a big bang, or whatever other theary there is... theres always room for something else. yeah i know you wrote other stuff, but since you cant prove your science, that means that there could be something else, and probably is.

Quote:
Note: This doesn't apply to Catholicism, because if you're a 'true' Catholic, you must believe homosexuality is a sin, because the Pope said so.

Hey... the pope thinks hes God.... popes have said it in the past... yeah, popes have said that they are god.

Quote:
I've at first hand witnessed this hypocrisy and have seen proof with my own eyes that rock to the very core of the bible, yet to question the very word of god is wrong?
like what? I just want to know... im being open minded
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Old 07-20-2003, 09:54 PM   #91
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
well.... look at it like this, Hell-burn forever thinking about your sins, heaven-live in peace forever knowing your sins are forgiven... slight difference dont you think.
The point is, eternity in either Hell or Heaven, representing respectively torment and happiness, cannot be healthy for the mind in my oppinion.

If you are doomed to consciousness for eternity I see only two ways; either perfect balance through enlightenment or total insanity. We're talking eternity here, not 100 years or 1 million years or 1 centillion eons (which is quite alot; 225*10^606 years). Impossible to fathom, yet I can imagine the result easily enough.

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Christianity for the weak? We have strong virtues, loyalty, trust, LOVE! So were weak... but were willing to die for God?
Your strong virtues are misguided, and even were they not you'd not need Christianity to embrace them. You're willing to die for God?...A hollow boast at best.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
give me a break! You cant observe the big bang! Crap, you cant even prove half of science all the way, so that means theres a chance. Untill you prove %100 that there was a big bang, or whatever other theary there is... theres always room for something else. yeah i know you wrote other stuff, but since you cant prove your science, that means that there could be something else, and probably is.
Never said I was a devout follower of science, that's your wrongful assumption. But in the defence of science, they unlike Christianity can and do provide an immense load of proof for their case.

And there will always be room for something else than what science can explore and explain, but that does not validate your arguments for God one single iota more than my theory of the sevenlegged ant, Woonawoona Wantagi governing the purple peanut inside which our universe resides.


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Old 07-20-2003, 10:57 PM   #92
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Your strong virtues are misguided, and even were they not you'd not need Christianity to embrace them. You're willing to die for God?...A hollow boast at best.

How is it a hollow boast.... millions of people have died 4 him! And Christ died for me! Look at Paul-he got his head cut off, Peter-hung on a cross upside down, Stephen-stoned to death... and many more.

Look this whole christian bashing stuff has been happening for 2000 yrs. What do u hope this thread will solve? One day i think it was maybe 1000 (dont know exact number) christians traveling to one of the countries in Europe (dont know exact country). Well any ways.. to make a long story short, they were in Rome.. i think... and the king (or govener... someone important) didnt like christians, juas cuase they were christians. Some building burned down somewhere, and the kind (or whoever) blamed noneother than the christians, who were just passing by. Guess what happend.... all em died. They stopped in a church to rest i think.. well they burned the church down. Many of the christians were hung on crosses, or tied to a stake and burned (they did that for fuel... or something). 1000 deaths... or more..... and right in the middle, paul and peter. And why did those 1000 + people die? To satisfy one man's hatred. The point of this is that christians will always be 'bashed' just cause they are christians.


Look... call christians dumb or whatever... i got another story far ya. One day there was a man named Stephen. He was a man of God. Jewish people were against him, cuase he spoke the word of God, and did many miricles with God's power. Well, they argued with him, and i guess you could say he won cause the spirit was speaking through him. So they got mad, they left, and started telling people that he said stuff against Moses, and God. That was against the law so he got taken to court, they put him on trial. Then Stephen gave this huge speech to them, about Moses. So then they got really mad cause of the speech. So they gave there coasts to a young man, named Saul. Saul, was a leading member of the pharacies. He watched them stone Stephen, and even said it was a good thing that they killed him. Well, he was really smart, and knew a lot about the law, and was really moving up. I guess he was good looking, and got a paid a whole lot. Anyways, he started telling the christians in Jerusalem, saying that he would kill them. So he went to the high preist and he asked them to send a letter to Damascus, and if he found any followers of christ, men or women, he was ganna arrest them and take them to jerusalem. i think he was planning to kill them :/ not sure. But anyways, he was heading to Damascus, and then a bright light shone from heaven, and Saul fell down, and a voice said to him 'Saul, Saul! Why are you persecuting me?' Saul said 'Who are you, Lord?' The voice said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Get up now, and go into that city. Someone there will tell you what you must do.' Everyone with Saul heard the voice. Anyways, theres more to this story, but, you might already know it. You might already know this guy, he later became know as Paul. So whats the point? The point is, is that just cause your a christian, that doesnt mean your ignorant, or whatever. Sorry that was so long, but at least its interesting.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:17 AM   #93
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
How is it a hollow boast.... millions of people have died 4 him! And Christ died for me! Look at Paul-he got his head cut off, Peter-hung on a cross upside down, Stephen-stoned to death... and many more.
Was talking about you personally.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
What do u hope this thread will solve?
Nothing, of this I'm perfectly aware.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
The point of this is that christians will always be 'bashed' just cause they are christians.
Indeed, fortunately alot of people stand up to your crime, and hopefully more and more will do so for the right reason.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Look... call christians dumb or whatever... i got another story far ya. One day there was a man named Stephen. He was a man.........The point is, is that just cause your a christian, that doesnt mean your ignorant, or whatever. Sorry that was so long, but at least its interesting.
I don't believe in that story, so it holds no weight with me. I stand by my oppinion that Christians are deliberately ignorant and intellectually stagnant out of fear.


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Old 07-21-2003, 11:20 AM   #94
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Nothing, of this I'm perfectly aware.
i wasnt talking to you, i was talking to the guy who made the thread, even though you are correct.

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Indeed, fortunately alot of people stand up to your crime, and hopefully more and more will do so for the right reason.
crime? being a christain is a crime?


Quote:
I don't believe in that story, so it holds no weight with me. I stand by my oppinion that Christians are deliberately ignorant and intellectually stagnant out of fear.

I dont see where the fear comes in. So we are ignorant cause we dont believe what you believe? Or... we dont stick with the 'crowd' like scientists say something, but we stick with what we already believe, so we are ignorant. Scientists cant prove anything 100% so it doesnt mean we are wrong.
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Old 07-21-2003, 12:29 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
And why did those 1000 + people die? To satisfy one man's hatred. The point of this is that christians will always be 'bashed' just cause they are christians.

how many people died 'by the cross'??

isnt it otherwise around fact that many people DIED because the DONT were christians?? hmmm. YAP.

so believe if you want. but you will always be bashed for THIS fact. CHRISTIANS ARE A CRUEL HORRIBLE SOCIETY .. no matter how many GOD CHRISTIANS (persons) there are..

In my view it's the christianity's fault that we live 'behind time' medeaval age cost us hundreds of years of technological forthcome. bah.

SO. it isnt WHAT christians believe.. it's WHAT they've done.. (and doing) .. founded on their faith..


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Old 07-21-2003, 12:44 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
crime? being a christain is a crime?
Already told you this and the reason why - don't you read what I write?

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I dont see where the fear comes in. So we are ignorant cause we dont believe what you believe? Or... we dont stick with the 'crowd' like scientists say something, but we stick with what we already believe, so we are ignorant. Scientists cant prove anything 100% so it doesnt mean we are wrong.
Already told you I'm no devout follower of science - don't you read what I write?

Your fear is that of mankind being in existence merely by chance. Your fear is that there is no purpose to our existence than what we make for ourselves. Your fear is of seizing to exist.

"but we stick with what we already believe, so we are ignorant." Exactly; you don't evolve from this point - intellectual stagnation.

Science can't prove anything 100%, eh? It means neither that Christianity is right nor wrong. It's like saying "Science can't prove 100% there are no giant blue pingvins in Sahara, so there must be some!" With how big a percentage can you proof the truth of Christianity?


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Old 07-21-2003, 01:06 PM   #97
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..

plus (sorry to 'interrupt') .. i can see what science is 'leading' us to .. i mean there are definite results .. and the more results the more abilities and so on we have ..

let see.. what do we have from cristianity .. NOT EVEN PEACE .. ..

and dont say science BUILD WEAPONS .. THAT is not right. Because the ABILITY is not the same as the USAGE..
(WO)MAN build weapons .. and use them .. not science or knowledge or some.

and christians CONSTANTLY tried to suppress KNOWLEDGE ..

..


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Old 07-22-2003, 01:16 AM   #98
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Re: Why is it OK to bash Christianity?

I just thought I'd drop in and answer the original question of the topic:

Why is it OK to bash Christianity? Because you're practically asking for us to do it.

The USA is soaked trough with ignorant christian fundamentalists seeking to impose christian way of life upon those who do not fit their biblical ideals, completely violating the US policies that prohibits citizens from imposing their religious views upon others.

When religious schools and parents literally teach children to hate minority groups and people with different religions and sexual preferences, and the same institutions refuse to let christians learn about other religions and about the evil deeds of christianity, thus promoting that hate and facist attitudes (I once met a student in my 9th grade class who didn't know about the Crusades).

I do not "bash christianity". I, like many others, bash fanaticism, such as "holy homophobia" or "holy racism". And please not that I ban every form of fanaticism, be it Buddhist, socialist, norse unificationist, animal-lovers... or christians.

If you conventional, clear-minded christians could steer the fanatical christians away from the path of ignorance and intolerance, you'd receive less of the unfair anger from people who went their feeling at all christians instead of just the fanatics.

I know I sound harsh, but my harshness is directed at the fanatics, not at you as a regular, nice christian. Oh, and if you are a fanatic, you can't take offense as you've probably said much, much meaner things yourself.

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Old 07-22-2003, 05:27 PM   #99
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If you conventional, clear-minded christians could steer the fanatical christians away from the path of ignorance and intolerance, you'd receive less of the unfair anger from people who went their feeling at all christians instead of just the fanatics.
youve given me something to think about here. But heres the thing, the christians who do commit these crimes, arent following the bible. The crusades were catholic right? im sure they were... and if they were christians, then they were disobeying God. Yeah i know what your talking about with these crimes, people killing... blowing up buildings and say they are doing it for God. I got an ex for you:

Tommorrow, i go to the store. I shoot everyone in there. When im asked why, im doing it the name of Jubatus, RayJones, or Dagobahn Eagle. Heres the question, did any of you have anything to do with this? Im talking from the point that God is real ok. So i go out shoot 30 people or something, and say im doing for God, or God told me to do that, or im doing it in the name of God, well whos to say God had a thing to do with it? Just because you call yourself a christian, doesnt mean your really a christian, or it doesnt mean when you do something wrong that its God's fault.

Hope that shows my point.

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let see.. what do we have from cristianity .. NOT EVEN PEACE .. ..
Read your bible, does it say anything about christians bringing peace? Dude the bible is the best moral code there is.

Quote:
Already told you this and the reason why - don't you read what I write?
Im guessing your talking about what i wrote above.


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"but we stick with what we already believe, so we are ignorant." Exactly; you don't evolve from this point - intellectual stagnation.
ok, you see a murder, you see the murderer, and the victom. He goes to court the jury say hes inoccent, he goes free. Do you change your mind, even though you saw it? A little bit different to christianity, but same point.

Quote:
and dont say science BUILD WEAPONS .. THAT is not right. Because the ABILITY is not the same as the USAGE..
You dont need science to make a weapon, you can kill with your hands... and in many other ways. And that has nothing to do with this topic

Quote:
how many people died 'by the cross'??

isnt it otherwise around fact that many people DIED because the DONT were christians?? hmmm. YAP.
plenty of people died by the cross... I dont really get what you said... but...... im pretty sure you missed the point of the story.




Quote:
so believe if you want. but you will always be bashed for THIS fact. CHRISTIANS ARE A CRUEL HORRIBLE SOCIETY .. no matter how many GOD CHRISTIANS (persons) there are..

In my view it's the christianity's fault that we live 'behind time' medeaval age cost us hundreds of years of technological forthcome. bah.

SO. it isnt WHAT christians believe.. it's WHAT they've done.. (and doing) .. founded on their faith..
Catholic Church.

But your right... actions are important. Ok, check your bibles, read the new testament, it says how a christian is supposed to act. If a christian is committing these crimes, then they arent obeying the christian rules. Is God to blame for this? No. Its the person's choice.

With crime as the reason you do like christians, you might as well just start hating the whole human race, cause there are laws (just like the bible is the law to christians) and people constantly break them. Everyone has broken the law, whether its stealing bubble gum from a candy store, or killing someone, youve still broken the law.

Look... that 50 asian dudes bombed a building yesterday... oh no.... i hate asian people now, and they deserve whatever they get. I dont care if the rest of the asian population is perfect, some arent, and that gives me perfect reason to not like them, they are a cruel heartless society. Give me a break. No offense to any asian people here, im just trying to get my point accross. No, i dont believe that, and it sounded stupid didnt it? Now then replace the word asian with christian and im sure youll get my point


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and christians CONSTANTLY tried to suppress KNOWLEDGE ..
Whats wrong with knowledge... not a thing. Im a christian and im saying that. Yeah medical science has saved millions of lives, and added years to our lives. With out a simple vaccination, or even caugh medicine, millions could be dead right now. Thats perfectly fine, but its things like cloning, and abortion that gets many angry. People constantly cover there backs with abortion by saying its a choice. Your killing unborn and saying its your choice. Hell yeah its your choice, i mean you decide to kill someone or not. My point is, science is all right, untill you take it too fare. Anyways, i havnt heard about christians trying to suppress knowledge. The bible doesnt tell me dont use your computer, or dont go to school.... you might get smarter Crap.... even catholics (you consider them christians, even though they break just about every commandment and rule/condition God has set up for people) The pope accepts the big bang theory so ive heard, and since he does every catholic will because he thinks hes God...

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Already told you I'm no devout follower of science - don't you read what I write?
I read your stuff, i was using science as an example.


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Old 07-25-2003, 12:07 AM   #100
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Im guessing your talking about what i wrote above.
Since it was my answer to your question, that I quoted, then yes. Seems to me you didn't even bother to find out what I was referring to, and if that is the case; that you don't bother reading your opponent's (as in we are in opposition) postings, then how do you feel justified in responding?

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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
ok, you see a murder, you see the murderer, and the victom. He goes to court the jury say hes inoccent, he goes free. Do you change your mind, even though you saw it? A little bit different to christianity, but same point.
First of all the murderer is innocent, in the understanding of not guilty, in my eyes as I do no believe in guilt, but that's besides the argument. I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here, but am I to understand you've witnessed God?


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Old 07-25-2003, 12:33 AM   #101
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of course i read what you say i quote it dont i?

No i have witnessed (im guessing you mean seen God) God. Its an example.

you know that the guy killed someone, but they said he was innocent (but he wasnt) does that mean he didnt kill anyone? no. You saw him do it. You said christians were ignorant cause they dont change there mind when other say its not true... or prove it wrong. But the guy killed someone, you know he did, and yet the court says they have enough proof to let the guy go.... you dont change your mind just because the court said he was innocent do you? Hope that clears it up.
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:50 AM   #102
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
you know that the guy killed someone, but they said he was innocent (but he wasnt) does that mean he didnt kill anyone? no. You saw him do it. You said christians were ignorant cause they dont change there mind when other say its not true... or prove it wrong. But the guy killed someone, you know he did, and yet the court says they have enough proof to let the guy go.... you dont change your mind just because the court said he was innocent do you? Hope that clears it up.
But you base my unwillingness to change my mind implicitly on my witnessing the murder, i.e. I have proof (if only for myself). So it is nothing like Christianity for which you have no proof. Your comparison is flawed.

I havn't said Christians are ignorant because they don't change their mind when others say it's not true; I say Christians are deliberalety keeping themselves ignorant, sometimes through denial and/or distortion of facts and speculations against their religion.


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Old 07-25-2003, 12:27 PM   #103
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i personally find it humorous that people think that when they die they continue to live in another plane of existence, instead of rotting in the ground. but still even if there was a life after death i think that would be terribly boring after a while.
Its called faith and the hope for something more. You have no proof thay there isn't life after death. So why do you find it humorous? I find it sad that people dont believe in any "life after death". And if there is life after death then I'm sure it wouldnt be boring.


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Old 07-25-2003, 01:45 PM   #104
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But if theres life after death, is there life after that life???!!!
Bah, all too spiritual and philosophical for me.
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Old 07-25-2003, 02:49 PM   #105
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No, if you check youir bible, it says your in heaven for eternity.

I dont c how anyone would go insane, i mean, your not going to be alone, and its not like you stand around and do nothing all day.
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:37 PM   #106
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I dont c how anyone would go insane, i mean, your not going to be alone, and its not like you stand around and do nothing all day.
Am I to assume then that you've never experienced anything at such length or for so many times that it's become tedious for you? I'll take a chance and say that you have, so imagine how many experiences will have become tedious to you after 1,000 years....After 1,000,000 years....After 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.

Granted, there are many experiences to be had, but they will be exhausted at one point and relived so many times that they will become frustratingly unbearable in your evergrowing ability to predict them further and further ahead, leading to a state of comatose or raving madness or incoherent babble of the mind.

One shouldn't just adhere to the dogmatic statement of eternal bliss without thinking it through.

Additionally, one should consider the perfectly rational and logic reason to why we are not immortal by nature instead of making up some utopian afterlife out of fear of death. Accept your mortality, ladies and gentlemen....Your children are your legacy; concentrate on them instead of your selfpity. Exploration to enlightenment is the way ahead, not refuging to ignorance.


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Old 07-25-2003, 07:40 PM   #107
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Originally posted by Jubatus
Am I to assume then that you've never experienced anything at such length or for so many times that it's become tedious for you? I'll take a chance and say that you have, so imagine how many experiences will have become tedious to you after 1,000 years....After 1,000,000 years....After 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.

Granted, there are many experiences to be had, but they will be exhausted at one point and relived so many times that they will become frustratingly unbearable in your evergrowing ability to predict them further and further ahead, leading to a state of comatose or raving madness or incoherent babble of the mind.

One shouldn't just adhere to the dogmatic statement of eternal bliss without thinking it through.

Additionally, one should consider the perfectly rational and logic reason to why we are not immortal by nature instead of making up some utopian afterlife out of fear of death. Accept your mortality, ladies and gentlemen....Your children are your legacy; concentrate on them instead of your selfpity. Exploration to enlightenment is the way ahead, not refuging to ignorance.
In heaven your not going to count years, your going to be overfilled with joy and a permanent "high" that it wont matter.

But...if you go to hell then it WILL seem like eternity.


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Old 07-25-2003, 09:52 PM   #108
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I think the general misguided attitude is part of the problem with the whole "Political Correctness" movement that seems to have had such a big splash in America in the last few years or so...

Basically the assumption is made that whatever the "majority" is seen to accept is free for slander, bad jokes, etc.

It's assumed that making fun of minority groups is bad and wrong, and to "make up for it" they turn their attention towards "majority" type stuff.

Now don't get me wrong, being non-judgemental about many cultural or ethnic stuff is probably a good idea in polite society, but I frankly think its a double-standard.

For example, the majority in the US right now is at least nominally Christian, but that may not always be so. Likewise, "white" is considered the largest racial group in the US, but that is rapidly diminishing in favor of "hispanic." Some stats say that by 2050, hispanics will be the largest racial group in the US. Does that mean that hispanic jokes will suddenly become acceptable? Somehow I doubt it.

Another pet peeve is mine is when people call women a "minority." Yet I keep hearing over and over again that women outnumber men by 1% (not sure if that's just in the US or everywhere). Just being part of a group doesn't pre-destine you to anything that I can see. If you want to take pride in your origins, that's fine, but I don't expect a person to treat me any differently because of where my ancestors were born or what color my skin is.

Let's think about an example of "cultural diversity" and see what the problems might be....

BET.

There is a channel on cable called "Black Entertainment Television." Okay, no problem right? It's just a channel with programming Black people might like. Seems harmless right?

But wait.. is that saying that being black means you are only entertained by certain things (different things than white, or yellow, etc?)? Frankly I've heard plenty of black people complain about the bad programming on BET. And what would people say if there was a channel called "WET" ("White Entertainment Television)?

That is why I think we should not pre-judge a person based soley on their group affiliation, but instead on their words and actions. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

I would want them to treat me the same way, so why would I attack them for no reason?


I have been called many nasty names by people online, who never met me, and don't know who I am or what I believe. There is a lot (sadly) of small minded, bigotted, stupid, or just flat out mean people on the internet, or folks who simply "don't care" and hide behind the anonyimity the medium grants them. I don't mind a little good natured humor or teasing now and then, but a lot of it is just uncalled for.

As to the religious issue, I don't judge anyone professing Christianity out of hand, because, as a student of religion, I know that even though Christianity is the world's largest religion, there are (nearly) an equal number of Muslims and Atheists/Agnostics in the world. I also know that there are over 30,000 denominations of Christianity, covering a spectrum of beliefs.

Christians come from all social classes, sexual orientations, races, nationalities, ages, genders, etc. So how can a person judge them based solely on a religious category? Answer: you can't.

Non-Christians as well, can't be easily categorized, since most religions have their various sects, off-shoots, denominations, philosophies, etc. (people have forgotten that a lot with regard to Islam after 9/11 for example). Atheist and Agnostics run a vast spectrum of beliefs and attitudes as well.

Some of the debates and challenges on here sound threatening at first, but they are good because they can help smooth over misunderstandings and allow people to confront the fact that we are not a bunch of living stereotypes and automatons.

Sadly, there will always people people out there, that instead of listening to what people have to say and honestly thinking about it, would rather just spout off and ignore, while waiting for their turn to slam strawmen to make themselves look good. ; p

I think that civil discussion IS possible, and most of the time on these forums I think people do try. You just have to keep an eye out for the folks who don't follow the rules of politeness.


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Old 07-26-2003, 10:36 AM   #109
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Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
In heaven your not going to count years, your going to be overfilled with joy and a permanent "high" that it wont matter.
So your mind will remain stagnant in how it perceives things for all eternity, and this will be done by God "drugging" you. Sounds like God's the biggest pusher of them all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
But...if you go to hell then it WILL seem like eternity.
No doubt, and you will go utterly insane just like in Heaven. Unless of course Satan too keeps your mind stagnant.


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Old 07-28-2003, 06:02 AM   #110
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I guess this whole debate is pointless. I see everything here repeats itself as in philosophy thread. It's like neither christians nor agnostics nor realists can convince each other of anything. As Jub would love to say: everything that is left here is to satisfy your own ego by not letting go. And as I notice most of the chat here is not about "ok to bash christianity" but an old world view debate.

This thread should have been a total psychology thread from the beginning and the matters that should have been followed were to be: why we try to satisfy our egoes by bashing christians and not why bashing christianity is justifyed or not justifyed.
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Old 07-28-2003, 06:29 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
In heaven your not going to count years, your going to be overfilled with joy and a permanent "high" that it wont matter.

But...if you go to hell then it WILL seem like eternity.
well if i have weed that'd be no problem. i'd do eternity if i had weed.

oh and muslims outnumber christians. it's just not in any of your W.A.S.P media.


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Old 07-28-2003, 10:36 PM   #112
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i am a christian, yet i have no faith. But i have alot of respect for those who do. Why is it ok to bash christainty? it is as ok to 'bash' someone for there religion as it is to 'bash' some one for there colour or there nationality. It is unexcetable. To use your faith in an arguement isnt right either. You shouldnt force your opinion or your religion on some one, or try and make them see your way. I also feel that just beacause you feel differently to someones religes(sp) belifes or teachings you can insult there faith or there God. It would be like, for a extreme example, a white man, bob, killing a black man,Bob2, for the reason that Bob2 is black and Bob feels blacks are wrong ((Names were never mystrong point, also i hope this post does not offend anyone, its just an example)). Its pointless and stupid. I just hope everyone thinks about this and trys and stop the bashing of christianity



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Old 07-30-2003, 03:49 PM   #113
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but i would go insane i mean we'd eventually run out of things to do there.
I doubt it. Remember, being perfect means having no needs. I mena, theres nothing wrong with you. Maybe you cant get bored.

Quote:
I know catholics who would argue that catholism is the christian faith and that all other denominations are false.

I don't see a difference in your claim or theirs.... the root word of "christian" is "christ." Both cults, yours and catholicism, acknowledge christ as a messiah/savior. Both cults center around the teachings of this alleged messiah.

Say what you will.... but I say you are religiocentric.
Christian, means christ like.. or being like christ. How are they being like christ? Anyways, the rules for christianity have been set, no doubts there. No one can say they havnt, i mean... over half the New Testament is teaching how to run a church, how to be a christian. Do catholics follow any of that?


Quote:
acknowledge christ as a messiah/savior.
As for that, i explained it. You can call anything christ, does it mean it is christ?

I can cal my PC skinwalker, does it mean that your my pc now? of course not.



Quote:
So the idea of Satan being a horned and tailed red fellow sitting on a throne overseeing Hell is just pure nonsense, yes?
yeah im pretty sure it is. I mean, considering youve only read one book of the bible, you obviously cant base your entire opinion of the bible on one vision, can you?

I cant see him being the way people describe him, because afterall, he was the highest ranking angel. I doubt God would make an angel look bad. Unless his apperance changed. Of course, i dont know what satan looks like.



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and would therefor not be grateful to God, who is not balanced.
How is God imbalanced.. you mean no sin or something?

Quote:
On the same note, why is it with Christianity, like with practically all major religions, so, that all the big miracles and divine events happened many hundreds of years ago and none happen today?
Heh, that question gets asked a lot. Maybe, since most of the world has lost its faith. Sure there are platny of christians out there, but how many are really truly trying to follow Christ's commands?


Quote:
Then what of all the images of the revelations presented to John? The Son of Man in all his fiery Sunlike grandeur, multiple-headed beasts, God surrounded by strange beastmen creatures, scorpion monsters? Must have just been some funky shroom trip if such concepts are pure nonsense, no?
I didnt say that was fake, but remember it was a vision, it means something. Anyways, the bible doesnt say satan is red and has horns.. and all this other stuff. He could... but i guess it really doesnt matter. I know this much, he doesnt sit around ruling Hell though. Even the bible says he will be tourtured, just like everyone else there.

Anyways, its supposed to be a vision of the future, so all of that stuff would be things john has never seen. Imagine, bringing ssomeone who died maybe 300 years ago to our time. I think he would be amazed. Just seeing things flying around would amaze him. Maybe John couldnt describe what he saw.
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Old 07-30-2003, 04:34 PM   #114
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
yeah im pretty sure it is. I mean, considering youve only read one book of the bible, you obviously cant base your entire opinion of the bible on one vision, can you?

I cant see him being the way people describe him, because afterall, he was the highest ranking angel. I doubt God would make an angel look bad. Unless his apperance changed. Of course, i dont know what satan looks like.
Never said I believed he looked like that; I was using your argument against you with the revelations of John...Though for some reason you decided to split it up in 2 parts even though they were connected.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
How is God imbalanced.. you mean no sin or something?
He created the world and life.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Heh, that question gets asked a lot. Maybe, since most of the world has lost its faith. Sure there are platny of christians out there, but how many are really truly trying to follow Christ's commands?
Or perhaps people aren't as gullible in today's world? And you're absolutely right about a vast majority of socalled Christians being hypocrites, and many of them are so selfdeluded they don't even know they're hypocrites.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I didnt say that was fake, but remember it was a vision, it means something. Anyways, the bible doesnt say satan is red and has horns.. and all this other stuff. He could... but i guess it really doesnt matter. I know this much, he doesnt sit around ruling Hell though. Even the bible says he will be tourtured, just like everyone else there.
And he can't be tortured and be free enough to rule at the same time? He did a pretty good job at having time to tempt Jesus in the dessert.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Anyways, its supposed to be a vision of the future, so all of that stuff would be things john has never seen. Imagine, bringing ssomeone who died maybe 300 years ago to our time. I think he would be amazed. Just seeing things flying around would amaze him. Maybe John couldnt describe what he saw.
There's nothing to say Armageddon hasn't already happened if you read Revelations close enough. As for John and what he could or could not understand of what he saw, it was merely a counterargument for that irrelevant argument about the perception of Satan you seemed to suddenly grabbed out of thin air.

-----

Now, this argument about the truth of Christianity has relevance to the original topic of this thread, but it's not the topic, as pointed out in a few posts above this. I've indulged you enough in your weakbased arguments, and will therefor simply refer you to my oppinions stated in my original answer to this topic and let you know that you can't argue anything to change them.

As admitted in an earlier post of mine, Christianity is merely a symptom of a disease, so it is indeed not Christianity in itself I bash, but the mentality behind it.


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Old 07-30-2003, 06:14 PM   #115
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Christian, means christ like.. or being like christ. How are they being like christ? Anyways, the rules for christianity have been set, no doubts there. No one can say they havnt, i mean... over half the New Testament is teaching how to run a church, how to be a christian. Do catholics follow any of that?


I think it's all superstitious poppycock, but here's what catholics have to say about the subject:

Quote:
Catholicism is the oldest Christian religion in the world. With over one billion people, the Catholic religion remains a strong force despite opposition. Catholicism is over 2,000 years old. Through the years, the religion must be more than a human organization, but a holy one.

Catholicism is the only Christian religion that started during Christ's time. All other Christian religions stemmed from it. The name "the catholic church" first started in the year 107 when Ignatius of Antioch used the title to describe Jesus' church. The term was old even then so it was probably known in the apostle's time. Catholicism has four main qualities. They are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

One - Jesus designed only one church with one set of doctrines. These doctrines are often examined, but their true meaning always stays in tact. Jesus has one body so He only has one Church.

Holy - Jesus has made the church holy. No, not all the members act holy, but the church itself remains holy.

Catholic - The word Catholic means universal. Jesus told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of everyone. The Catholic religion is found all over the world.

Apostolic - Catholicism is apostolic because Jesus appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church. Successors were the future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops. Since the first century, there has been an unbroken chain of bishops that pass down the traditions and Scriptures.


You want a so-called christian group to be afraid of, try the cult that calls itself The Potter's House

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
As for that, i explained it. You can call anything christ, does it mean it is christ?

I can cal my PC skinwalker, does it mean that your my pc now? of course not.


Why doesn't that apply to your own cult? What gives your own cult validity while excluding older cults like catholocism?


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Old 07-31-2003, 12:46 AM   #116
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Quote:
I think it's all superstitious poppycock, but here's what catholics have to say about the subject:

What?? I said the apostles, christ, and other godly men wrote down how the church should be ran. Yeah, catholics are probably in the bible, just not called that. Paul, and possibly a few others wrote a few times that false prophets had entered the churches. So if you have a person teaching false things, some people will believe it, and others will stick with the original, thats how i think different denominations were formed. Another thing, how can the catholic church be over 2000 years old, when Christ was born 2006 years ago? The bible doesnt teach any of what they practice, its there own rules. I could care less what they call it.

Alright, lets look at it from a christian point of view here, the world sees catholics as the main group of christianity, even if it isnt christianity. On judgement day, do you think God will care what its called?

Quote:
You want a so-called christian group to be afraid of, try the cult that calls itself The Potter's House

Afraid? Where do you get that idea, if i were afraid, do you think i would post this stuff? Ive broken Roman Catholic law, the penalty is death.


Quote:
Why doesn't that apply to your own cult? What gives your own cult validity while excluding older cults like catholocism?
A cult, is a group that diseaves people, how is my 'cult' decieving anyone. Dude, you dont even know a thing about me, or my so called cult. Do you even know if i go to church?

Ok i do, i was there an hour ago, but still...

Alright... 1 we actually follow God's law, in other words, the bible. 2 we dont set up our own laws. 3 we dont kill you if you disagree with us. 4 we dont try to set up a big show to impress the followers, EX: catholic costumes. 5 We dont make up a whole load of crap. 6 The man in charge of our church doesnt declare that he is God.

Quote:
Catholicism is the oldest Christian religion in the world. With over one billion people, the Catholic religion remains a strong force despite opposition. Catholicism is over 2,000 years old. Through the years, the religion must be more than a human organization, but a holy one.

Catholicism is the only Christian religion that started during Christ's time. All other Christian religions stemmed from it. The name "the catholic church" first started in the year 107 when Ignatius of Antioch used the title to describe Jesus' church. The term was old even then so it was probably known in the apostle's time. Catholicism has four main qualities. They are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

One - Jesus designed only one church with one set of doctrines. These doctrines are often examined, but their true meaning always stays in tact. Jesus has one body so He only has one Church.

Holy - Jesus has made the church holy. No, not all the members act holy, but the church itself remains holy.

Catholic - The word Catholic means universal. Jesus told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of everyone. The Catholic religion is found all over the world.

Apostolic - Catholicism is apostolic because Jesus appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church. Successors were the future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops. Since the first century, there has been an unbroken chain of bishops that pass down the traditions and Scriptures.

Look, this is an example of the crap im talking about, that doesnt counter, or prove me wrong in 1 way. If anything it proves me even more right. Over 2000 years... man... Under Roman Catholic law, they have the right, to kill Christ, Paul, Peter, and everyone of the Apostles, and billions of people throughout history.

I think... that may just prove my point. If you want to know why, its because Christ said, you WILL go to heaven, as long as you do what your supposed to, EX: accepting him, repenting..... the list goes on....

Roman Catholic law says, if you have assurance that you will go to heaven just like christ said you do, then you should die.

What kind of church would make a law that says there founder should die????

And you still call it christianity.

Just doesnt seem very christ like to me.
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Old 08-02-2003, 04:13 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
A cult, is a group that diseaves deceives people...
Cults like to trick their followers to believe that everthing else is a cult... usually with outright fabricated definitions. Beware the Kool-Aid.

Cult: Definition:
_
1. (n) _an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
2. (n) _a system of religious beliefs and rituals
3. (n) _adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices

Found at HyperDictionary, but check Webster's College Dictionary and you'll find a very similar definition.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Alright... 1 we actually follow God's law, in other words, the bible.
A 2000+ year old document that has no verifiable sources.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
2 we dont set up our own laws.
Perhaps... but your cult definately sets up its own rules about other cults.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
3 we dont kill you if you disagree with us.
Perhaps not yet. Perhaps not ever. Time will tell.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
4 we dont try to set up a big show to impress the followers, EX: catholic costumes.
Good. I'm against those cults that take their show on the road... witnessing to needy peasants by offering food/shelter/clothing in exchange for devotion to the cult in question. They call it "missionary" work... I call it exploitation and extortion.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
5 We dont make up a whole load of crap.
See... I thought your cult subscribed to "creation," "Noah's Flood," "imaculate conception," etc. I'm glad to hear that crap isn't a part of your indoctrination.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
6 The man in charge of our church doesnt declare that he is God.
But I bet he/she has had god speak to him/her. Or vice versa.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
And you still call it christianity...
Just doesnt seem very christ like to me.
It's not up to you to decide. Catholics choose to define their religion in the same manner that you choose to define yours. From my outside perspective, it is ironic that one cult points the finger at another to denounce it's validity! Ha!

I disagree with both denominations of christianity and reluctantly offer my opinions here in the form of the fairly insensitive words above. I'm not usually this vocal of my intolerance to religion/cult activity and have very good relationships with many friends and family of many religions. In fact, I find their religions largely fascinating. I so aggressively point out the fallicies of your argument because I despise bigotry and ethnocentrism even more. Your view of other religions is bigoted and ethnocentric. It, no doubt, isn't your fault but rather that of whomever forced you to be indoctrinated in the cult itself.

And, just to be sure, I don't "call it christianity," the majority of the rest of the world does. Despite the prejudices and misconceptions you obviously have about Catholism (as well as the apparent hatred), it is regarded as the christian faith by most of the world. It's poppycock too, but its christian poppycock.


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Old 08-02-2003, 12:11 PM   #118
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there have been some baptists and protestants here that have killed people because the people they killed didn't believe what they believed. and those militias in montana are baptist and protestant. just so you guys know.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 08-02-2003, 01:25 PM   #119
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You assume too much skinwalker. No one in my church even talks about this, its based from well known facts, and my own observations.

I do not hate catholics, people have mentioned crimes committed by christianity, in just about every thread about religion. Im saying, it was catholics, ive proven, they cant be christians, there bibles, and mine say you have to accept christ to be a christian. If you havnt, you arent a christian. It has to be of your own choice. No one has forced me to do anything (if they did, why am i talking to you about it?)

Quote:
Cults like to trick their followers to believe that everthing else is a cult... usually with outright fabricated definitions. Beware the Kool-Aid.
Kool-Aid?

Umm, anyways, no one in my church has told me anything about this.

Quote:
1. (n) _an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season"
2. (n) _a system of religious beliefs and rituals
3. (n) _adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
And thats christianity? I believe christ said that your supposed to pray different things, not keep the same prayer. Same beliefs, but we dont do the same thing.

Youve assumed a lot, when you dont know a thing about me or my church.

Quote:
Perhaps... but your cult definately sets up its own rules about other cults.
What rules, i stated what they do, compared it with what Christ and his followers said, and you can see a huge difference. I looked this up in books, and put 2 and 2 together and found out there own rules contradict there entire system.

Its a fact, they say you dont have assurence of Heaven, its a fact Christ said you do. Its a fact, there law says you are damned as a heretic if you say that.

Quote:
See... I thought your cult subscribed to "creation," "Noah's Flood," "imaculate conception," etc. I'm glad to hear that crap isn't a part of your indoctrination.
lol, you know Noah's Flood is said to have affected that carbon dating method you guys have. Of course i believe in that (remember, if its in the bible, i believe it)

what is imaculate conception????

Quote:
Good. I'm against those cults that take their show on the road... witnessing to needy peasants by offering food/shelter/clothing in exchange for devotion to the cult in question. They call it "missionary" work... I call it exploitation and extortion.
Ah, well we do both, sort of... with out the exchange part. We pray, thank God for the food (or whatever)

Anyways, i thought missionarys came to the people, to TEACH them, i havnt heard of anything of what your talking about.


Ill get back to you later....
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Old 08-05-2003, 05:20 AM   #120
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Pat Robinson is a good reason to bash christianity

Man, I wanted to let this thread die... but Pat Robinson gets under my skin and (walks?) is a good reason to bash christianity. With leaders like Pat, christianity doesn't need any enemies.

Pat Robinson recently launched a "call for prayer" as a result of some recent Supreme Court decisions. He wants certain justices to resign and he wants god to convince them with your help! LOL. Pat said: "Would you join with me and many others in crying out to our Lord to change the Court?" He continued with a few fallicies:

Robertson said: "In 1962, they ruled prayer out of the public schools."

Not so. Students remain free to pray in schools. What was ruled out was government-mandated, teacher-led prayer.

Robertson said: "In 1963, they ruled the Bible out of public schools."

Not so. The Bible is studied as literature in many schools. What was ruled out was government-mandated Bible preaching.

Robertson said: That it is now "illegal for little elementary school children to give thanks over their milk and cookies at snack time."

Not so. Little school children may still pray over lunch. What was recognized as illegal was state-mandated, teacher-led prayers.

Robertson said: "Now, the Supreme Court has declared a constitutional right to consensual sodomy and, by the language in its decision, has opened the door to homosexual marriages, bigamy, legalized prostitution, and even incest."

Not so. No door has been opened to bigamy, legalized prostitution, or incest. Quite the opposite--the Supreme Court confirmed the constitutional right to privacy behind closed doors.

Robertson said: "The framers of our Constitution never intended anything like this to take place in our land."

Not so. James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution," had many of these ideas in mind. Other framers had other ideas, such as the continuation of slavery, the continued disenfranchisement of those without property, and the continued denial of rights to women.

Robertson said: "No culture has ever endured which has turned openly to homosexuality."

Not so. The implication that turning openly to homosexuality destroys cultures is false. No culture has ever endured, as all cultures die eventually. But there's certainly no evidence that acceptance of homosexuality ever caused the downfall of any culture.

Clearly, this deluded, self-righteous, and bigoted individual is reason to bash christianity. The pope is running a close second in his recent support of the Vatican document (12 pages long) that is entitled “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons.” It encourages lawmakers and religious leaders alike to oppose extending marriage rights to same-sex couples.

So there you have it.... two very good reasons to bash christianity. And LukeS.... don't even bother with the anti-catholic "they're not christian" BS.... you and your particular denomination are the only ones that subscribe to that propaganda. And that's just what it is... propaganda designed to ensure the survival of the cult. The Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses, Heaven's Gaters, Potter's House, and the Scientologists have been doing the same thing forever.

Scientologists? Did I say scientologists? No... you keep those lawyers away... I'm sorry... I ..... aaahhhhggg.


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