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Old 09-02-2003, 12:09 AM   #1
snowman21
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Question will MP gameplay be like SP?

In ja, will saber combat in multiplayer be the same as the singleplayer combat? I for one think that it JO would've been better if this was the case...

and sorry if this has been asked before.



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Old 09-02-2003, 12:38 AM   #2
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maybe. but i would not think so.


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Old 09-02-2003, 12:58 AM   #3
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Actually, Raven has gone to much trouble to get multiplayer to play like singleplayer as much as is possible. I think they have also put in GHOUL 2 collision detection so that light sabers actually hit each other or the player, not a box around the player like in the first Jedi Knight...
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Old 09-02-2003, 01:14 AM   #4
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I'd guess, the only thing that you can't do in MP from SP is being able to move around while doing backstab and overhead slash type of moves. Correct me if I'm wrong..


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Old 09-02-2003, 02:10 AM   #5
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Re: will MP gameplay be like SP?

Quote:
Originally posted by snowman21
In ja, will saber combat in multiplayer be the same as the singleplayer combat? I for one think that it JO would've been better if this was the case...

and sorry if this has been asked before.
What with patches put forth from lucasarts, i would think they'd change the gameplay accordingly. It would be time wasting to produce another 1.02 MP experience. Those who urged the patches would do so again, and lucasarts would go through the process once more. That is of course, they're aiming for a 1.02 MP experience with no exceptions, which i doubt.


Ouchies.....
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Old 09-02-2003, 03:57 AM   #6
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Re: will MP gameplay be like SP?

Quote:
Originally posted by snowman21
In ja, will saber combat in multiplayer be the same as the singleplayer combat? I for one think that it JO would've been better if this was the case...

and sorry if this has been asked before.
I would expect the lightsaber to be toned down a bit in multiplayer games. 1 or 2 hit lightsaber kills would have folks crying their eyes out. Hopefully it will be more powerful than it was in JK2. Lets pray for no saber nerfs this time around.
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Old 09-02-2003, 04:22 AM   #7
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I heard that Raven will be scripting MP to be based on SP, whereas with jedi outcast, they scripted each one separately. By scripting them together so that MP acts like SP, modders will be able to make Mods that can reflect a SP-like mood for the mod.


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Old 09-02-2003, 04:41 AM   #8
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Hmm.. that could be good and bad.

In JK2, the saber combat in SP was "better" by most people's standards, but the guns in SP were TERRIBLE, compared to MP.

Hopefully what they really meant is that they would be close, but not identical, unless they're going the MP route. ; P


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Old 09-02-2003, 05:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurgan
Hmm.. that could be good and bad.

In JK2, the saber combat in SP was "better" by most people's standards, but the guns in SP were TERRIBLE, compared to MP.

Hopefully what they really meant is that they would be close, but not identical, unless they're going the MP route. ; P
I believe it was patch 1.04 when I realized that theres no point in using a lightsaber against someone using explosion-type guns in MP. The lightsaber was no match for 2 or 3 quick shots from the alt fire on the flechette gun or alt fire on the heavy repeater. Even using force push to defend yourself against gunfire was hopeless vs a good player. Plus, theyve got more ammo than youve got force. You could try to force pull the gun outta their hand, but smart folks used absorb to prevent that. In the end you had a choce between using a gun or playing on a saber-only server. That kinda ruined it for me, when Jedi Knight became Quake Knight.

Gun balance needs to be watched carefully in Jedi Academy so this doesnt happen again. As far as guns are concerned, I'm fine with one gun being more powerful than the other. Example: The flechette gun is obviously more powerful than the pistol. This makes sense. Its difficult for the pistol person to win, but it can be done. This rule should not apply to the lightsaber. Last time I checked, the lightsaber was the weapon of a jedi. Which means this weapon should be able to hold its own fairly against any other weapon (without being over-powering of course).

Gun folks have the obvious advantage of being able to attack strongly and quickly from a distance. With the saber youve, got to be close range to attack or throw the saber acurately (thank you captian obvious). If I'm able to dodge gun attacks and get within swinging range of my opponent, give me one good reason why I shouldnt be able to kill him with 1 or 2 slices? The saber shouldnt be a plastic toy that takes 20 or so damage.

I know some will disagree. But this is just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-02-2003, 08:28 AM   #10
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i agree with Jarek. i think light stance should do 30-40 damage, medium do 50-70, and heavy do 100+. more emphasis should be put on defense, and blocking incoming attacks, so that mistakes result in death, rather than a slap on the wrist. make it harder to land a blow, but more damaging when they do connect. i think this would make duels more interesting, but also open up saber only (team) ffa. there's nothing i hate more than seeing a group of people running in circles beating each other ineffectively with sabers.

of course its too late to change the game, this is simply what im hoping for
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Old 09-02-2003, 09:36 AM   #11
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the great saber vs. guns debate rages on!

Quote:
I believe it was patch 1.04 when I realized that theres no point in using a lightsaber against someone using explosion-type guns in MP. The lightsaber was no match for 2 or 3 quick shots from the alt fire on the flechette gun or alt fire on the heavy repeater. Even using force push to defend yourself against gunfire was hopeless vs a good player. Plus, theyve got more ammo than youve got force. You could try to force pull the gun outta their hand, but smart folks used absorb to prevent that. In the end you had a choce between using a gun or playing on a saber-only server. That kinda ruined it for me, when Jedi Knight became Quake Knight.
Well, you could always use Protection, or pull the guy's gun away (and if they blocked the pull, you could throw your saber at them and score a hit while they were distracted), but people seem to have forgotten about those. Not only that, but Rage made you basically invulnerable...

And everybody (including me) forgot about Saberdamagescale 2 or 3 (JA will have this preset for non-Duel so Sabers do more damage, vs. in duels they do less).

Quote:
Gun balance needs to be watched carefully in Jedi Academy so this doesnt happen again.
My argument was that the guns were FINE in 1.04 MP, perfectly fine. It was the sabers that sucked (until you changed the saberdamagescale cvar). The problem is, if we swap out and use the SP guns in MP, then using anything but a saber will be utterly useless. The SP guns were weaker, slower, more inaccurate, etc.

In fact, I felt the overall movement and actions were tighter in MP (they had to be to account for lag whereas in SP they were more showy and slowed down), I was just pointing out that "most people" on here whined that MP sabers needed to be more SP like.

MP guns do NOT need to be more SP like. Or else, as you say, nobody will play anything but sabers only, because guns will be utterly pathetic and useless.

Quote:
As far as guns are concerned, I'm fine with one gun being more powerful than the other. Example: The flechette gun is obviously more powerful than the pistol. This makes sense. Its difficult for the pistol person to win, but it can be done. This rule should not apply to the lightsaber. Last time I checked, the lightsaber was the weapon of a jedi.
Yeah, but aren't a lot of people assuming that once you get a lightsaber you should be unstoppable? That's something I don't agree with. That's like making one gun that is unstoppable. It's silly and unbalanced. Then nobody will use any other weapon. You might as well remove all the others.

The JK series and the EU has always had force sensitives using more than just lightsabers. This isn't "Obi-Wan" this is Jedi Academy. Oh sure, you might say, it's Luke, and he's training everybody to be saberists. But don't forget you are being trained by Kyle, a known Gun/Explosives wh0r3. ; )

Quote:
Which means this weapon should be able to hold its own fairly against any other weapon (without being over-powering of course).
In class based games I would agree with you, but in general FFA, I say it shouldn't be the most powerful weapon, it should be balanced with the others, in the interest of game balance, or, as I said, there will be no point in using anything but the saber (admittedly this seems to be what some jedi fanboys want, but I don't think its going to happen it the base game, thankfully).

They are doing the right thing in JA by increasing the saber damage in non-Duel modes (as SaberDamageScale 2 and 3 do). This will make the saber more powerful as it was in 1.02.

Quote:
Gun folks have the obvious advantage of being able to attack strongly and quickly from a distance. With the saber youve, got to be close range to attack or throw the saber acurately (thank you captian obvious). If I'm able to dodge gun attacks and get within swinging range of my opponent, give me one good reason why I shouldnt be able to kill him with 1 or 2 slices? The saber shouldnt be a plastic toy that takes 20 or so damage.
See above. ; )

I think the saber needed some tweaking from 1.04 defaults (which could be accomplished by a console command or two), and it will be, as Raven has stated, so your concerns have been answered!


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Old 09-02-2003, 12:02 PM   #12
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I really cant comment too much on the guns in single player on JO. I honestly didnt play it much. I bought the game for multiplayer. I gave the SP a shot, but the puzzles annoyed me, lol. Bumping up the lightsaber rather than nerfing the guns is the key. JA doesnt need nerfs running wild like JO did.
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Old 09-02-2003, 01:12 PM   #13
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Trust me.. or fire it up some time.

The guns in SP are patheticly weak compared to the guns in MP.

I think their intention was to make the guns useful only until you got the sabers and Force, then you were supposed to stop using them.

I figured this because that's what I did. I found the gun only levels highly frustrating. It was much harder to kill AI with guns in SP than it was to kill bots in MP.

This was especially true if you played on Jedi Knight or Jedi Master difficulty.

I know this time around in JA's SP they are putting even more emphasis on Sabers and Force, but that makes me think the guns will be hardly ever used. Then again, some have suggested that you'll be at just a low level of Force/Saber that using the guns will make more sense (sort of like the frustrating Nar Shaddaa level levels in JK2). But I think they would be better served to make the JA SP guns more like MP (rather than the other way around or just leaving them the same as JK2). If they still want you to use the saber more, they could just make more enemies that have force pull or make ammo more scarce for the big guns.

Or at least they could include a console command to make "realistic gun damage" or something (ie: MP style guns in SP).

It would certainly lower my frustration levels... ; p


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Old 09-02-2003, 01:45 PM   #14
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the saber game play in sp was kinda 'slow' like u where drugged or somehting


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Old 09-02-2003, 02:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarek
Last time I checked, the lightsaber was the weapon of a jedi. Which means this weapon should be able to hold its own fairly against any other weapon (without being over-powering of course).
The problem with this is that the movie world does not translate well to the online MP game world. Ranged weapons have an inherent advantage against melee weapons. In the movies the great equalizer has been that the wielders of the lightsaber have been Jedi, and the gunner are not. The Force helps the Jedi to be effective with a melee weapon even against guns. This works great for cinema (and the SP game), but does not work for MP because there all of the gunners are also Jedi, with all their powers. This negates the traditional Jedi advantage, and once again the advantage of guns over melee weapons arises.

Also, the Jedi did not select the lightsaber because it is an uber-weapon that is more powerful than all others. Their goal is not to be "l33t d00dz" who want to rack up "frags". If they did, they probably would select rocket launchers They aim to maintain peace and order, and selecting a defensive weapon instead of an offensive one reflects this philosophy. But this is again completely different from MP, where the only goal is to kill everyone else (at least on non-RPG servers)

In the end, with everyone haveing access to the same abilities, a good gunner is going to defeat a good saberist.
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Old 09-02-2003, 04:42 PM   #16
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Well said, Prime, and I totally agree.

All we really know for sure is that Raven said they were trying to make the saber combat similar in both SP and MP, but not identical. We also know that saber damage will change according to the MP mode being played (more damage in FFA etc., less damage in Duel).

The only thing I'm really hoping for is an option to stop the dynamic cursor from flipping around the screen. I just want it in the centre, but with all the special effects (red, green, Force use on object etc.) intact. That would go a long way to curing the 'accuracy' problem that I and many others experienced in SP. I know this for a fact, because I used half as much ammo when I turned it off (and yes, I did spend the time to actually test that).

Anyway, I can't wait to play the game so we can resolve all these perceived 'issues' with the game.
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Old 09-02-2003, 05:10 PM   #17
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I agree with jarek on this. The lightsabers should be deadly. Not only is
it an accurate modeling of lightsabers, but battles were so much fun when
they had realistic saber damage. You really had to be careful, because you knew
just one or two mistakes and you were toast! It also favored those who actually
had skill with a lightsaber, sloppy fighting in a duel would leave you dead
pretty quick. hehe

As far as the guns go, I think the biggest problems with balancing these in
multi-player comes from the fact the whole premise of the fight is ridiculous.

In a such a battle in Star Wars, one guy would be a Jedi Knight and his opponents
would be various bad guys with guns. But in JK we get the bizarre situation of
supposed Jedi running all over the place with all sorts of guns.

If you want to test the actual balance, then have the Jedi (with realistic saber
damage on) face enemies with guns, but no lightsabers and no force powers
at all, and let them loose to fight it out. Then you'll see what a fully trained Jedi Knight
can do to scum like that. haha
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Old 09-02-2003, 07:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dunedain
I agree with jarek on this. The lightsabers should be deadly. Not only is it an accurate modeling of lightsabers, but battles were so much fun when they had realistic saber damage. You really had to be careful, because you knew just one or two mistakes and you were toast!
Exactly! I remember the pull/backstab days. Learning how to execute and defend against that move made me a much better player. The lightsaber had a certain ass-clench factor because someone could kill you with 1 swing if you arent careful. And most people never took the time to learn ways to avoid being backstabbed.

It was easier to take the whiner route. People were complaining because a weapon which cuts thru human flesh like hot butter was doing its job well. "b4ckst4b n3wb!" Uhm, you missed me 7 times with your heavy repeater, you failed to push me off the ledge, you let me get within 2 feet of you, and then you didnt even attempt to use absorb or drain to stop me from throwing you to the ground and cutting you in half. You made all the mistakes, but I'm the noob?

Even if the 1-hit kill had not been the "backstab" move and instead been something else, folks still would have complained. People just dont want to see a powerful lightsaber. If more moves had been powerful like the backstab, it wouldnt have been spammed so much.

In the end, I just dont think its fair for a saber user to have to wack away at his opponent 3 or 4 (or more) times to get a kill. But a gunner can toss out 1 or 2 rockets or flechette rounds and get a kill. You never saw hundreds of threads on: <insert gun here> is too powerful!
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Old 09-02-2003, 07:18 PM   #19
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Gunners with Force have always annoyed me... It just doesn't really work.
The Lightsaber should be the best weapon, as Jarek has said.
I also think guns should be powerful as well, close to the Lightsaber in fact. However, that power should come with a price.
If you use guns, you shouldn't be able to use Force powers. Because if you can, then you become almost invincible. Take away the Force, and you've still got a great weapon, but most of your defensive capabilities are gone.
Switch back to the Lightsaber, which is only slightly better than any other weapon, and you get your arsenal of Force back.

Anyways, I think the Lightsaber needs to be used more... Somehow..


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Old 09-02-2003, 07:28 PM   #20
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i think the best way to solve all of this would be to have a gun only mode. Like the saber only mode it made things mor equal if you wanted it to be like that.If you were play CTF the having both can have its benefits. The only gun opption gives people the chance to no have to wory about mad jedis backstabing you all the time


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Old 09-02-2003, 07:44 PM   #21
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You know, for having to invest so many points into saber offense and defense, it's a pretty pathetic weapon. On the other hand, the guns require absolutely no sacrifices, so a gun user is going to wind up being more in tune with the force than a dedicated jedi. Anyone else see the problem with this? Perhaps we shouldn't take away all the force powers from a gunner, but they should at least need to spend a number of force points equal to the amount needed for full saber offense, defense, and throw combined if they want to run around with that concussion rifle or missile launcher. Spending points on your saber offense and defense skills should be a worthwhile investment, not a kick in the pants. Oh, and yay for lethal damage when your saber passes clean through someone's body!
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:49 PM   #22
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What i really want from this game is a lightsaber that works like in SP and the NPCs (one hit and theyre dead), not like a plastic flashlight that when you make a direct hit the enemy says, "ow that hurts." It could be different in duels though. So your duels are longer and look more........duel-like. Guns too i believe should be balanced out. In JK2, when someone had a gun and was shooting at someone with a lightsaber, all the lightsaber guy would have to do is pull the weapon out of thier hand and slice the guy. You should be able to give more of a challenge to a person with a saber.



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Old 09-03-2003, 01:54 AM   #23
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I guess you guys are big "Jedi Vs Merc" fans eh?

Who says Jedi can't use non-saber weapons? I see no reason why they can't, especially in the non-traditional post-ROTJ era.

Anyway:

Quote:
If you want to test the actual balance, then have the Jedi (with realistic saber damage on) face enemies with guns, but no lightsabers and no force powers at all, and let them loose to fight it out. Then you'll see what a fully trained Jedi Knight
can do to scum like that. haha
With no force, the Jedi would get "0wn3d" by the gunners, because without the force, he can't dodge sniper shots, and he can't push away rockets. His saber blocking also greatly diminishes. Again, the saberist loses.

If you say it has to be FF saberists vs. NF gunners, then you might have a point... but that's not balanced at all. The Jedi can just pull away NF enemy's gun and he's already won.

The fact is, that in FFA, the lightsaber is just one weapon among many, despite what some Jedi fanboys might want.

Instead try Siege mode or saber only Duel if that's your thing.


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Old 09-03-2003, 03:21 AM   #24
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I wouldnt consider myself a "jedi" or a "lightsaber" fanboy. I just believe that Jedi Knight/Academy is more than just your average FPS game, because of the lightsaber and force powers. Everyone uses the guns sometimes. Thats what's unique about the game. The ability to go at it with a gun or a lightsaber. Its a variety not found in any other FPS game.

I kinda like the idea someone had about limiting certain force powers for those that carry a gun. Or instead making the force powers stronger when using a lightsaber. Or maybe someone takes more damage from a lightsaber attack while they have a gun equipped. But, I know that'll never happen.

This is an arguement that will never end. Those who want the lightsaber to be more powerful are labeled jedi fanboys. Those who want guns to reign supreme are labeled quake fanboys.
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Old 09-03-2003, 03:53 PM   #25
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I said the guys with the guns wouldn't have any lightsabers or force, a Jedi Knight
by definition will have those things. That's what I was talking about for an actual
comparison of the way it would really be.
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Old 09-03-2003, 04:41 PM   #26
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i find the guns to be fairly unimaginative and bland. there's a pistol (blaster), machine-gun (E-11/repeater), shotgun (flechette/bowcaster), sniper rifle (disruptor), grenade launcher (flechette/repeater secondary fire), the rocket launcher, and then the grenades, trip mines and det packs. nothing that hasn't been done to death in other games. the DEMP2 adds a bit to singleplayer, but unless there are droids in siege mode it won't be useful in multiplayer. the lightsaber is what sets the game apart from quake3 or ut2003, so i think the game should have a strong focus on it.

that isn't to say that i want guns to be nerfed, or saber made all powerful, but rather that balance should be approached from the perspective of trying to offer a challenge to saberists, but one that isn't insurmountable.
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Old 09-03-2003, 04:54 PM   #27
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I don't have a problem with gunners having no (or limited) Force powers - while holding a gun. Sure, slow their movement down, and allow a couple (not all) weapons to be pulled from them.

But the problem then becomes Saber Defence used by the Saberist. The Saberist can use Force Speed and Jump to get in close to a gunner who would no longer have access to those things, and basically run circles around them, and use the saber to deflect every shot, Push to push away rockets and Heavy Repeater secondary. End result...one dead gunner in 3 seconds flat. No fun for the gunner at all in that.

So if there were to be a game mode along these lines, then I think the Force powers available to the Saberist should actually be made less strong - and saber defence taken down a notch so stray blaster fire does get through. When you can just stand there and reflect practically every blaster shot coming at you, and repel other fire modes with Push, and absorb the pitifully few shots that might get through at the moment by using Protect or Rage, you become practically invincible.

You might argue that's the whole point of being a Jedi, and I'd agree...but it would be absolutely no fun at all for gunners in the game.

Another way to 'balance' it would be to give the gunner ramped up armour, and access to more health packs.

I think it could be done...if necessary...and I hope Siege is somewhat along these lines.
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Old 09-03-2003, 05:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by StormHammer
But the problem then becomes Saber Defence used by the Saberist. The Saberist can use Force Speed and Jump to get in close to a gunner who would no longer have access to those things, and basically run circles around them, and use the saber to deflect every shot, Push to push away rockets and Heavy Repeater secondary. End result...one dead gunner in 3 seconds flat. No fun for the gunner at all in that.

So if there were to be a game mode along these lines, then I think the Force powers available to the Saberist should actually be made less strong - and saber defence taken down a notch so stray blaster fire does get through. When you can just stand there and reflect practically every blaster shot coming at you, and repel other fire modes with Push, and absorb the pitifully few shots that might get through at the moment by using Protect or Rage, you become practically invincible.
That all sounds great on paper, but the fact is, saberists are far from invincible. The saber defense from blaster fire is pretty much the only thing that keeps a saberist from being dead in 3 seconds flat. The other strategies you mentioned, I really dont see as unfair. Because the force powers are available to all. A gunner can just as easily push a projectile back as a saberist does. I know guys who are really good at "heavy repeater ping pong". And as for force protect, for the amount of force it uses vs the amount of damage you reflect, I'd say its almost useless. It'll keep your health up longer, but then youre out of force....and then youre REALLY dead.
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Old 09-03-2003, 09:39 PM   #29
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I didn't mean to insult or offend. When I said fanboys, I really should clarify... (in a sense we are all "fans" because we like Star Wars in some shape or form.. fanboys are people who can't see anything but their own limited point of view, because they think this is their game and nobody else's).

These are not just the role players and "honorz" people, but rather those who want to limit the game to "Obi-Wan" levels.

They essentially are saying... "okay, sure, you made this great game with all this stuff, but all we want to play is Sabers."

Quote:
I wouldnt consider myself a "jedi" or a "lightsaber" fanboy. I just believe that Jedi Knight/Academy is more than just your average FPS game, because of the lightsaber and force powers. Everyone uses the guns sometimes. Thats what's unique about the game. The ability to go at it with a gun or a lightsaber. Its a variety not found in any other FPS game.
Agreed. But I don't see guns+force as being any less legit than sabers+force in terms of fun, or in-universe "goodness."

Sabers only is just one gametype within this vast array of options, I just don't want to be limited to that.

Quote:
I kinda like the idea someone had about limiting certain force powers for those that carry a gun. Or instead making the force powers stronger when using a lightsaber. Or maybe someone takes more damage from a lightsaber attack while they have a gun equipped. But, I know that'll never happen.
From what we have heard, it sounds like this is what Siege mode is going to be (or something similar to it). MotS also had this feature. FFA will be the same though.

I was saying that the fanboys can't stand to have sabers be anything less than the ultimate weapon, so they either won't tolerate guns or want them nerfed.

Quote:
This is an arguement that will never end. Those who want the lightsaber to be more powerful are labeled jedi fanboys. Those who want guns to reign supreme are labeled quake fanboys.
Yeah, I understand. The whole "Quake" thing never really made sense, because that assumes that taking away sabers makes this identical to Quake3. Guns+Force is just as unique and worlds-apart different as Sabers+Force. After all, nobody accuses JK of being a "Heretic II Ripoff" or a "Rune Clone" in sabers only do they?

Maybe I shouldn't use labels... I am just a little sick of hearing the same old fallacious arguments used by those folks to elevate what are really just gameplay preferences. ; p


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Old 09-03-2003, 11:42 PM   #30
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I just wanted to add that the stuff I was referring to about guns
and no force and all of that had nothing to do with a mod or game type.
I was just pointing out that one of the main reasons that there is this
difficulty or debate regarding balancing of someone using guns vs a player using
the lightsaber is that the whole situation is not the way an actual battle
like this would happen in Star Wars. So naturally you get a balance problem.
Because you have guys kind of like bounty hunters running around with all these
guns, oh, and they are also Jedi Knights, they also have lightsabers, and they
have all kinds of force powers besides. Hmm...

No wonder it's all messed up and unbalanced, the whole premise of the fight
bears no resemblance to an actual fight that would happen in Star Wars!

That's why I suggested a fight between a Jedi Knight (lightsaber, force, etc.)
against some players with just guns. Then you'd get a much more accurate idea of how
such a fight would go in Star Wars.

In such a fight in Star Wars, the bad guys would almost certainly end up toast.
And in JK, it would probably go about the same.
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Old 09-03-2003, 11:57 PM   #31
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u know, i think what would be great is that if you could respond with force as fast as a guy can shoot with a gun. in sp, no matter how fast you shot at a shadowtrooper he would push back everything, in mp, u can shoot the alternate of the flechette or repeater faster than u can make push work. if we can make force respond faster and make a lightsaber almost lethal, a force powered saberer can stand up to a force powered gunner.


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Old 09-04-2003, 01:17 AM   #32
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After my first game of MP in the recent months, ive changed my mind.

1 to 2 hits wouldn't be smart. Realistic...sure, but theres more to a game than this. I encourage dismemberment on death hit, but thats pretty much all as far as saber realism. 1 to 2 hits...lets say we have em...what about special moves? Why would I want to waste time lining up an enemy with my reticle, jumping smoothly and slapping fire to initiate a medium special that if I missed i'd be killed in a single hit or two. When I could simply switch to blue stance, run after an enemy like an idiot and hold my fire button, thus killing the opponent with ease?

Or why would I care to feign attacks and time my enemy so I can pull off a DFA? My normal attacks would finish the person off easily anyway!

The thing is...the damage is fine as it is as far as SABER BATTLES go. The sad thing is that it can be hard for a saber carrier to defeat a gunner without the force.

Then again...think about it in terms of SOME realism. Your a Jedi with a lightsaber...but without the force....hmmm...well...duh you cant win easily without the force!

The force is what makes a lightsaber worth something against gunners. So think about it in terms of that. And i have no problem against gunners when force is available. If the saber is proving a disadvantage then I switch to guns.

Simple as that! I go with the flow. And I like the swift pace of multiplayer....I want it to stay somewhat the same as 1.04 honestly, except with more collision detection.

Thats really the only thing I liked so much about SP, the high amounts of collision detection.

Put more of that in multiplayer and im fine...but thats just me.


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Old 09-04-2003, 03:19 AM   #33
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as it is, special moves are special because they do increased damage. perhaps if saber blocking was increased, but specials were given increased penetration, a higher saber damage could work, still providing a good variety of moves for duels. and i agree with the blocking, i think alt fire with the E-11 at close range should fry anyone with a lightsaber, as should the repeater.
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Old 09-04-2003, 04:57 AM   #34
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Kurgan,

Dont worry, no offense taken I can see how it would appear that I'm being a "saber fanboy". But, I try to look at an issue at every angle, not just my own, before I think a balance change is needed. If something I say comes off as "wishful thinking", it probably is, but also with reason. What I'm wanting is for a saber user to have a fair shake versus the big guns. And I dont think JO balance was as good as it could have been in that particular area. This doesnt mean I want to start nerfing guns, or make the lightsaber an ungodly powerful weapon.

The whole "Quake" reference is just a simple way to express how I (many people actually) feel about the lightsaber and its inability to kill a skilled gunner. If its not effective, people will turn to the guns and forget the saber. If you take away the lightsaber and the force powers, all youve got is another quake game. I've noticed alot of gun-only people who dont even use force powers, except for push! heh

On a side note, I think its pretty cool that the admins and moderators of this forum are very active and polite. Alot of forums just have mods who want to be mean, play god, and censor folks who have an opinion that they disagree with. Keep up the good work.
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Old 09-05-2003, 09:38 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarek
That all sounds great on paper, but the fact is, saberists are far from invincible. The saber defense from blaster fire is pretty much the only thing that keeps a saberist from being dead in 3 seconds flat. The other strategies you mentioned, I really dont see as unfair. Because the force powers are available to all. A gunner can just as easily push a projectile back as a saberist does. I know guys who are really good at "heavy repeater ping pong". And as for force protect, for the amount of force it uses vs the amount of damage you reflect, I'd say its almost useless. It'll keep your health up longer, but then youre out of force....and then youre REALLY dead.
I accept your comments...but you're speaking in the context of everyone having access to the Force (i.e., normal gameplay) ...whereas my original post was in the context of gunners having no access to the Force. A Saberist with access to all Force powers, up against a gunner with no Force powers at all...would win quite easily, IMHO, because the most useful weapon for a gunner against a saberist using the Force at the moment is the flechette, and there is not a limitless supply of ammo for it. The gunner would not really be able to avoid rockets and heavy repeater secondary fire that are pushed back at him either (without the Force you can't jump high out of the way, you can't roll in any direction, you can't use absorb or protect, and you can't use Force speed to avoid it - if you had no Force powers).

So the end result of a Saberist (Force) v Gunner (no Force) would be no fun for the gunner. Most of your arsenal of weapons would simply be useless - which is why everyone has complained so passionately about the flechette and the heavy repeater secondary - because they are really the most effective guns to use.

And I'll say a big thanks from all the mods and Admins about your last comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dunedain
That's why I suggested a fight between a Jedi Knight (lightsaber, force, etc.)
against some players with just guns. Then you'd get a much more accurate idea of how
such a fight would go in Star Wars.

In such a fight in Star Wars, the bad guys would almost certainly end up toast.
And in JK, it would probably go about the same.
And that is exactly my point. Such a fight would be great for the one playing the 'Jedi'...but it would be absolutely zero fun for the gunners involved. Basically, no one who likes to play with guns would even bother playing a game where they are predestined to lose - unless they are simply role players expecting to die for some particular scenario. If gunners had no Force powers to draw on...then the game would have to be rebalanced so that the 'Jedi' with Force is not invincible in a game context, or you might as well get rid of all weapons other than the lghtsaber.
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Old 09-05-2003, 02:50 PM   #36
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Like I said, I wasn't referring to any type of gameplay, just pointing out why
the problem exists in the first place. Namely, because the situation as it is
done in JK regarding Jedi vs gun wielders is nothing like what it would
actually be in Star Wars, so naturally you get balance problems and things
that don't seem to make sense. And that's because they don't make sense.

Now, since JA is a game and we want to give guys with guns at least a somewhat
fair chance, purely for the sake of gameplay, so they don't just get cut down
like saplings left and right (which is what would really happen in a fight
with a Jedi Knight ), I can understand letting them have some force powers.
Just so it can be competitive, if for no other reason.

Now, speaking purely in game terms, how would it be best to balance it?
Maybe severely limit their force powers unless they throw down their gun
and use the lightsaber (and you couldn't pick up another gun for a few minutes
after dropping the gun, this way the choice would mean something and last for a while)?
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Old 09-05-2003, 04:04 PM   #37
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perhaps give gunners force-like powers, powered by technology. like shield regenerators, jetpacks, or a flame thrower (that acts like level 3 lightning) like the one Boba Fett's dad (forgot his name) used in the most recent of the new movies. you could have dedicated a dedicated gunner class, or a dedicated jedi class, similar to siege mode i guess (maybe it's something that's already in there?).

this may have already been tried in a mod, but i haven't seen it, so don't yell at me if i've posted stuff that's been around for a while

anyway, just speculating ... if it hasn't been done in a mod, well maybe it's an idea, if it has, can someone link me, i wouldn't mind checking it out
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Old 09-05-2003, 04:09 PM   #38
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perhaps give gunners force-like powers, powered by technology. like shield regenerators, jetpacks, or a flame thrower (that acts like level 3 lightning) like the one Boba Fett's dad (forgot his name) used in the most recent of the new movies. you could have dedicated a dedicated gunner class, or a dedicated jedi class, similar to siege mode i guess (maybe it's something that's already in there?).

this may have already been tried in a mod, but i haven't seen it, so don't yell at me if i've posted stuff that's been around for a while

anyway, just speculating ... if it hasn't been done in a mod, well maybe it's an idea, if it has, can someone link me, i wouldn't mind checking it out
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Old 09-05-2003, 04:13 PM   #39
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Hope nobody is offended by the term "fanboy." I'm not a "gun fanboy" because I use the saber, I just don't say that it should be the ultimate weapon or that gun users should be nerfed so that the saber can beat them.

I don't enjoy Quake as much as the JK series, because here I can use Force and it has the Star Wars atmosphere. Using the saber is just icing on the cake. But if it's all people are going to ever use, why does Raven waste their time making a whole set of other weapons and game modes to use non-Saber weapons?

It's like they make this fabulous game and people only take advantage of 1% of it!

Quote:
The whole "Quake" reference is just a simple way to express how I (many people actually) feel about the lightsaber and its inability to kill a skilled gunner. If its not effective, people will turn to the guns and forget the saber. If you take away the lightsaber and the force powers, all youve got is another quake game. I've noticed alot of gun-only people who dont even use force powers, except for push! heh
It's still a fallacious argument, and I'll give an example why:

Quote:
The Bryar pistol is the weapon of a mercenary like Kyle Katarn.

It has been his trusted weapon since the series and the character were created.

Thus, the game will only be truly balanced when the Bryar pistol can hold its own against the big guns. I see people running around using other weapons and the Bryar pistol just has no chance. If I wanted to use big guns, I would go play Quake. If I wanted to swing a melee weapon I would play Heretic II or Rune:HOV. Raven needs to balance the game so that the Bryar is the powerful weapon of the mercenary it was meant to be.
Now see how silly that is? But, wait, you say, this is "Jedi Knight" and Jedi use lightsabers!!

But remember, the series has always been unconventional, it has always had guns. Why put in other weapons if they are all inferior to the saber? The type of "balance" that has always been part of the series has been situational effectiveness. Different weapons are better in different situations.

This is different than SP, where you "upgrade" from a weak weapon to a stronger weapon to a stronger weapon until you finally have the "ultimate weapon" which you then use to "own" hordes of pathetic AI enemies.

Examples of this balance I'm talking about:

The Lightsaber is powerful in close quarters (although less effective against another saber), purely defensive at a distance. Attacking decreases its defensive potential.

The Repeater is great mid-range, poor close quarters and mediocre long range.

The Disruptor is excellent long range, poor close range and mediocre medium range.

Trip Mines and Det Packs are great for setting traps, but terrible as regular combat weapons (just as likely to hurt you as they are to hurt the enemy).

Thermal Detonators are inaccurate and short range, but hard to deflect and have a large blast radius and can't be blocked by sabers.

DEMP2 is slow, and crappy overall, but it can't be blocked by sabers or force pushed away.

etc.

What the "saber fanboys" are really asking for is Obi-Wan PC. This would have been the perfect game for them. The Force powers are low level, and the game is completely saber dominated, no guns to "get in the way."

From all that we've seen and heard about this game, its a moot point really. The only place that saber fanboys will have their dreams fulfilled is in single player or on saber only servers.

Granted, I love the saber and I love good duels, but in FFA or team games like CTF or Siege, its just going to be one more weapon in your arsenal, not the ultimate weapon.

The whole thing about lack of lightsabers making this "just like Quake" is also fallacious because you forget about Force. Very few MP FPS games have anything to compare to the Force in the JK series really. Guns+Force is just as much "Star Wars" as Sabers+Force. Or even guns alone, since they are still Star Wars weapons in a Star Wars environment.

Anyway, if people are owning you without using Force, then perhaps your own skills leave something to be desired? Again, no offense...

The way I see it, if a person can play MP and never switch from the saber and win all the time against competent opponents who don't do the same, then something is wrong with the balance...


For those complaining that the weapons are "bland and unimaginative" c'mon.... you should know by now that the Star Wars weapons are all based on Real Life weapons, which just so happen to be featured in other games.

Han Solo's blaster and the ST Rifle for example are simply modified WWII era machineguns and pistols respectively. The thermal detonator is a hand grenade, the mines are... surprise, mines! The Sniper Rifle... hmm... starting to get the picture?

The Lightsaber is original you say... oh wait, it's just a flaming sword!

If the weapons were imaginative people would complain that they were not "Star Warsy enough" or rip offs of Star Trek or Unreal.

I think they did a great job with the weapons, nobody can claim they aren't straight out of Star Wars.

Quote:
No wonder it's all messed up and unbalanced, the whole premise of the fight
bears no resemblance to an actual fight that would happen in Star Wars!

That's why I suggested a fight between a Jedi Knight (lightsaber, force, etc.)
against some players with just guns. Then you'd get a much more accurate idea of how
such a fight would go in Star Wars.

In such a fight in Star Wars, the bad guys would almost certainly end up toast.
And in JK, it would probably go about the same.
JK2 already had this, it was called Jedi Master but since nobody played it, Raven removed it from JA. Go figure.


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Old 09-05-2003, 07:17 PM   #40
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Thumbs up

Just to remind anybody who forgot, the sabers in JA *will* do more damage (akin to saberdamagescale 2 or 3) in CTF and FFA compared to Duel, so that will help immensely.

With the default 1.04 settings I did feel that they were a little too weak for non-duels...


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