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Old 09-16-2003, 09:47 AM   #1
Admiral Vostok
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Admiral Vostok's plan for SWGB2

The time has come to begin presenting my plan for SWGB2. Unlike others before me I've made mine into a HTML document for readability purposes (and also to show off). I've made the document in the colours of the forum so you'll all feel at home.

At the moment only the Overview is available. I hope to release a new section every week, though if other peoples' efforts are anything to go by I'll fall behind. I'll post a link on this thread every time I release a new section. As discussion continues about the plan in this thread, I may make changes to already released sections.

Now, here is the link:
Admiral Vostok's SWGB2


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Old 09-18-2003, 06:57 AM   #2
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I made a few additions that I'd forgotten for the Overview. Anyone had a look yet? Sorry about the length, but you know me.


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Old 09-18-2003, 09:48 AM   #3
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LOVE IT!!!!!!!

k ive read the whole thing and its pretty damn good. NOOOOOOO pretty damn INCREDIBLE.

1)In your experience advancing thing i think droids should be the exception there no matter how many fights they endure they cant learn new things or get better unless programed 2. Maybe a research which grants them to be built already advanced should come in around the installation stage. (just an idea)

GOD DAMN U I WANNA READ MORE HOW CAN U DO THIS

well done cant wait to read more.
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Old 09-18-2003, 10:33 AM   #4
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Vostok - and you accuse ME of ripping off ideas from other games and people! Seriously, not bad, but your menu system is a pain in the rear. Plus, your resource system seems a bit odd. You need trees but not metal?

Frozted - i think you have a little something hanging off your chin there buddy...


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Old 09-18-2003, 10:34 AM   #5
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Frozted - Well I intend to only give Experience to some units. Trade Federation Battle Droids earn Experience, as we see Commanders in their Ranks. Super Battle Droids are less human though, and don't earn Experience - they're already really good anyway. This will all be expanded on when I get to the actual Civs.

Windu - The ideas I've taken from other games aren't explicite ideas, and they're already in use by more than one game. For example Experience is used by Red Alert 2 and WarCraft 3.

Also Carbon includes Carbon from trees and Carbon from rock (metal).


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Old 09-18-2003, 09:54 PM   #6
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some of those ideas are really good but Tibanna Gas i beleieve is used for weapons not for flight wealth seems like a good idea but to generic in my Idea i have each civ with a different name for it under the general catagory of Credits and each civ has a different name for it some of those civs may not fit in especially if it's gonna have space elements Not even in what your cult of ANTI-EU call balsphemy what most of us call truth does not even attempt to claim that their is a gungan space battleship or even that the gungans had their own space ships and neither did the wookies and the naboo had unarmed ships so that's why some may not make it except as a toy box civ or a ground war only mode.


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Old 09-19-2003, 05:23 AM   #7
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Well I only called it "Gas" not Tibanna Gas, so no problem there.

You seem to have gone on a bit of a tangent towards the end, not quite sure what you're talking about.


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Old 09-20-2003, 12:05 AM   #8
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*raises eyebrow at experience concept*

Looks good, Vostok. And just to definitively complete the plagerism cycle, I think Im gonna borrow your classification idea. I like the idea that you are essentially submitting the acceptance to upgrade your installation to a greater level to a superior, although the concept should be modified slightly for those civs that build towns and not bases.


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Old 09-20-2003, 01:10 AM   #9
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Woa, im impressed, maybe you should apply at Lucasarts !
seriously, your ideas are pretty good


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Old 09-20-2003, 03:15 AM   #10
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Sith - when I typed it out originally I had two types of civ: those that build bases and those that build townships. I had the Classifications named differently for townships: Settlement, Village, Town, City. However, I thought it was too confusing for something that is really only semantics. So I got rid of the Townships idea, though Naboo, Gungans and Wookiees will still technically be building townships instead of bases.

another_trooper - thanks for the compliment, but you ain't seen nothing yet!


I've added some more stuff to the Overview again, this time it's Power and Neutral Towns. I forgot about these before.


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Old 09-20-2003, 08:11 PM   #11
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wow i wish i saw this sooner...

Last few days have been gruesome for the forum(looks at JA forum).

Anyway, it looks like you have the best plan and most elaborated plan of the gang up-to-date(due to other forumites' lazyness).
It's wonderful and I wish I could find a flaw to it

Thanks for mentionning us by the way!


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Old 09-21-2003, 12:48 PM   #12
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Vostok - if you can get metal from carbon you would be a miracle worker. Unless you didnt know, Carbon is non-metallic so unless you want woosen AT-AT's, your resource system is kinda shot.


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Old 09-21-2003, 06:32 PM   #13
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Windu, he was copying the resource system from the current game. Dont complain to him, complain to LA.


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Old 09-21-2003, 09:55 PM   #14
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I think carbon should be replaced by metal.

The resources should be:
- Food
- Metal

And I don't know what else.... I'll think about it.


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Old 09-21-2003, 10:40 PM   #15
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yea metal would be more realistic but carbon metal i dont really care
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Old 09-22-2003, 12:08 AM   #16
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Actually I think Metal is a good resource, and long ago it was one of the ones I included. I think Carbon is still important though, especially to civs like Wookiees and Rebels. Food is also an essential resource I think, especially for Gungans. I don't want five resources, that would be silly. So I think we'll have to chose between Metal and Gas.

I quite like Gas but I admit there are conceptual problems with it that I haven't fully figured out yet. The fact that it is an air-borne resource is the main one. I had figured the only way to harvest it would be to build a building under it and the Workers essentially "mine" the building. I can't think of many variations on this to create diversity amongst the civs, unlike other resources.

I also like Metal, and the only problem I can see with it is that we'll have to lose Gas. So, pending approval of the Council (all of you guys) I shall change Gas to Metal. If Metal does replace Gas, Gas will still be in the game as a Wealth Resource, which you can harvest as though it were on the ground to avoid complications.


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Old 09-22-2003, 09:39 AM   #17
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I thought the idea of having carbon as a resource was because vehicles in SW are made of carbon fibre rather than metal, but I'm not certain on that point, and it's probably EU anyway...
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Old 09-22-2003, 10:37 AM   #18
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Vostok - well, my idea for gas is this-

- deposits found at varying locations and various densities in the air around the map
- Command Center (or another building) builds Gas Refinery which then automatically seeks out and starts mining the closest Gas deposit
- Gas Refineries can only be attacked by aircraft or anti-aircraft units
- Gas is required for aircraft to fly, ie No gas = grounded aircraft

Also, i think Metal is far more important than Carbon is.


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Old 09-22-2003, 05:29 PM   #19
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I like gas, after all, it's what Bespin lived from, so it's accurate for the saga.

I don't quite understand Wealth, so, what I think is that there should be 5 resources:

-Food
Used by most civs

-Metal
-Carbon
Depending on the civilization, you could heavily rely in one or the other

-Gas

-Credits
This would be gotten from trading and other operations that should be defined, with this, you pay Bounty hunters and advanced technologies, Empire for example should have easier access to credits than the Rebel Alliance.


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Old 09-23-2003, 07:09 AM   #20
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I might change it to Metal. It is slightly more realistic, since gas is really only available on certain planets. Although Gas did add a certain Star Wars-y flavour, it can still maintain a presence in the game as a Wealth Resource, though it will necessarily be easier to mine than it would as an individual resource (such as having the Workers able to gather it from the ground).


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Old 09-23-2003, 08:15 AM   #21
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yea i think metal would work better gas is a little to plain. anyways i wouldnt care if u had both
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Old 09-23-2003, 11:41 AM   #22
Admiral Vostok
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Well as promised the second section, Unit Classes, is up. It's even longer than the other one I think. Anyway there are a lot of "controversial" ideas in it that I know some of you won't like, so be warned. Follow first link above.


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Old 09-25-2003, 06:30 AM   #23
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1) Trooper shooting aircraft is good realism plus its good how you spread it over so they can't just shoot it while flying over unless getting fired at. NICE!!

2) Jedi and Sith losing force powers? ahhh maybe not the best idea but it could work if u explained why u did this. Cause in wc3 a unit could have up to 4 powers/supers could work like Jedi- push, heal, speed , mindtrick sith- push, choke, lightning and turning. Something like that but its all good

3) So the air units while fighting they keep moving but when not wanting to fight they still hover? Maybe hangers that hold up to 10 fighters since they should cost alot more now that they are strong. Which should just come out of the airbase and once engaging they fly out of the hanger and return when you tell them to.
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Old 09-25-2003, 11:17 AM   #24
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1) Thanks! I hope Sithmaster likes it as he was the strongest opposed to Troopers shooting Air.

2) Yeah originally I had Jedi keeping all their powers, but then I thought there should be some incentive to keep both Knights and Masters instead of just always upgrading to Masters. As such the Knight's powers are good for dealing with many weaker units while the Master's are good for dealing with very powerful units. If the Master was everything a Knight was and more there would be no reason to keep Knights around. I'll add this in a box on the side because this is something I thought a fair bit about.

3) Well we've discussed this and decided returning to hangars is too restrictive and not really very Star-Wars-y. So no hangars. Also I don't like hangars.


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Old 09-26-2003, 04:57 AM   #25
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yea well im not a fan of the 4 hanger CnC hangers either

but i still dont like them floating in mid air but i guess i can live with it.
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:11 AM   #26
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Well I think floating in mid air is more Star-Wars-y. Think of the way the X-Wings rise up out of the Yavin Jungle, or of the Gunships hovering just above the ground.


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Old 09-26-2003, 09:43 AM   #27
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Vostok - INFANTRY SHOULD NOT SHOOT AT AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, for normal flight ops, aircraft will be flying far too high and fast for a rifleman to hit anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and secondly, the Battle Droids did a lot of damage firing at the N-1 in ep1 and the Gunships in ep2 didnt they?


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Old 09-26-2003, 01:25 PM   #28
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well 1st of all it was a TF mech destroyer that shot down a fighter. And yes in ep 2 the droids did hit one of of the sky didnt c any others get hit though.
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Old 09-26-2003, 08:16 PM   #29
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Vostok - INFANTRY SHOULD NOT SHOOT AT AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ditto. From a gameplay perspective, it is essentially shooting yourself in the foot, and from a realism perpective it deosnt make sense either, for reasons Windu pointed out. Certain units (the TF AAT, the ATAT), can be special and shoot at air, but it still wont do any good.

Also, I dont know what game you were playing when you said that troopers were underused in favor of mechs. Ever hear of trooper wars?

Liked the jedi ideas, aside from some of the micro involved. The bounty hunter idea was good, although I prefer my way of signifying that they are on your pay roll (it fits better gameplay wise)


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:22 AM   #30
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Quote:
First of all, for normal flight ops, (1) aircraft will be flying far too high and fast for a rifleman to hit anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and secondly, the (2) Battle Droids did a lot of damage firing at the N-1 in ep1 and the Gunships in ep2 didnt they?
(1) This is why I made it that Troopers can only shoot at Air once the Aircraft shoot at them. This is because for the Aircraft to hit them the Aircraft will obviously have to be low, and not high as you assume.

(2) They didn't do much at all, but that didn't stop them shooting did it? With enough Battle Droids shooting at Anakin I'm quite sure they would have been able to overpower the shields. Just like in the movies, however, a group of half a dozen Troopers will do virtually no damage at all to an Aircraft with Shields. So what's the big deal?

Quote:
Also, I dont know what game you were playing when you said that (3) troopers were underused in favor of mechs. Ever hear of trooper wars?

Liked the jedi ideas, aside from some of the micro involved. (4) The bounty hunter idea was good, although I prefer my way of signifying that they are on your pay roll (it fits better gameplay wise)
(3) Well most games I've played with human players sees them (by the end of the game) taking Strike Mechs over Troopers. Late in the game you virtually never see Battle Droids or Royal Security Guards, because as Troopers they aren't that good. I feel they need to maintain a presence throughout the game, and allowing them to shoot at Air does this. There should be some reason (apart from cost, which isn't an issue by the end of the game) that makes Troopers attractive to use over light mechs. As for Trooper Wars, most Star Wars games should be such! Troopers are the major military unit in the movies.
(4) What's your Bounty Hunter idea? I can't seem to find it in your thread.

Where is the proof that making Infantry shoot at Air is bad? Every RTS I can think of (except SWGB, which is because it was using the AoK engine) has ranged infantry shooting Air, and it has worked incredibly well. Even your beloved AoM, Sith, has ranged units allowed to attack Air. With Aircraft playing a much larger role in SWGB2 than AoM, it seems only logical to allow the same limitations to shooting. I think it is the only way we can make Air as strong as they should realistically be without tipping the balance too much in their favour.


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:38 AM   #31
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Vostok -

1. Aircraft weapons will be larger, more powerful, and longer ranged. For example, do you think a rifleman could hit an A-10 with his 5.56mm M-16 at the same range the A-10 could fire at him with his 30mm Canon? There is a big difference.

2. The shots were BOUNCING off Anakin's shields, not being absorbed, there is a big difference. No matter how many droids were shooting at it, there would have been no difference, think of it like shooting at an M-1A2 main battle tank with an M-16 assault rifle.

As sithy said, this is bad for both gameplay and realism.

PS Frozted - tanks arent classed as infantry


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Old 09-27-2003, 10:18 AM   #32
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The main reason why you never see TF or Naboo troopers in T4 is beacuase they don't get repeaters. Letting them shoot at aircraft wouldn't change this at all. Where civs do get powerfull troopers in T4 (eg Reps, Confed, Rebs) they are used a lot. Although troopers are less powerful than mechs and die very quickly in T4, they're cheap and build very quickly, especially Clone troopers with the Kaminoan upgrade thing. Combined with artillery and/or MDs they can do a lot of damage before they die (although massed artillery slaughters them before they can do anything). If I'm rebs and it goes on a long time after T4 (depressingly often in low inter games!) then when the nova runs out I usually just pump out FU repeaters and MDs, which can be quite effective until the carbon runs out as well. I've even killed AT-ATs with troopers sometimes!
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Old 09-27-2003, 12:05 PM   #33
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i know tanks aint infantry all i was saying no droid shot a naboo fighter down only that 1 mech did

PS- mechs aint tanks :P
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Old 09-27-2003, 12:13 PM   #34
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republic troops suck they may build fast but there armor is still like all the others WEAK!!! Ad by the sounds of it vostok will make all the armies center around troops Trade fed should have weak troops but the fastest production of them on the field and much cheaper. So in SWGB 2 the whole system will change I HOPE!
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Old 09-27-2003, 01:09 PM   #35
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Actually Frosted, Republic trooper are great. They might not have the firepower or resistence of wookiee, rebel or confed troopers but being able to build them over 50% faster can give you a very big defensive advantage.

Vostok is not the only one to want troopers to be the mainstay of all armies(except Naboo maybe). I want that too. Of course there will be trooper wars but that's what I think is fun and indeed very star wars-y. Of course other units are a necessity in any case to win the battle.


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Old 09-27-2003, 08:40 PM   #36
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Vostok, I still see TF players and Naboo players using troopers, and not only the specialized ones. They are just really good fodder and help protect the mechs from nasty things like grenadiers, mounties, MDs. They also make for a cheap and easily replaceable meat sheild. In most of my online games, I rarely built a mech factory, opting to use troopers with supporting air and heavies if large amounts of sieging was required, even in t4.

AoM has ranged units attacking air because there really aren't enough air units (and a realistic reason) to include specialized aa-units. In WC3, ranged units were the counter to air (and not much else), in this game they would be incredibily weak vs air and have a large ground force. Also, Star Wars games center around ranged units, most RTS's center around melee ones. Thats giving way too many units aa power.


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Old 09-28-2003, 01:29 AM   #37
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Windu - I might agree with what you're saying but as I know everything about Star Wars militaries and absolutely nothing about real world militaries I have absolutely no idea what your post says.

Sith - while good players like yourself understand the importance of troopers, not everyone plays like you. I mostly play the game as an ally with one of my friends against three or more comps. My friend always gets a better score than me, yet his armies are so rediculously unrealistic. My problem is I have an uncontrollable need to use a realistically composed army. He usually plays Empire, and uses absolutely no Troopers when attacking. He builds them to defend, but he turtles and pumps out mechs. He usually ends up with in excess of twenty AT-ATs and twenty Anti-Air Mobiles, with strike mechs or Dark Troopers supporting. I tell him how wrong it looks but he won't change because it wins him the game. I'd like to make SWGB2 so it is not so attractive to do what he does.

Quote:
Thats giving way too many units aa power.
This is what I want, so Aircraft can be balanced in to be as powerful as they really should. An N-1 should be able to blow away a Droideka in one or two shots. You can't make Air that powerful without making them simultaneously more vulnerable.


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Old 09-28-2003, 02:21 AM   #38
Darth Windu
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Vostok - lol, okay, a short explanation would be that the A-10 carries far heavier armour, more accurate and longer-ranged firepower than a Rifleman. The A-10 could literally rip a human body to shreds if it hit you with its 30mm whereas a 5.56 would likely do very little, if any, damage to the A-10.

The point im trying to make is that Infantry weapons are ineffective against aircraft, so to give Infantry AA ability hurts gameplay AND realism.

With Aircraft, the way to restrict them while making them stronger is to use my 'Gas' idea. This way, if your enemy can restrict your reserve of Gas, your Air Force will either be grounded, or only able to conduct a few missions. This way increases both Gameplay and Realism.

Alternately, you have have a specific range for Aircraft

For more information regarding the A-10, go to
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...-10/index.html


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:28 AM   #39
Admiral Vostok
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Yes but unlike your ideas my restrictions on Aircraft don't make them annoying and un-Star-Warsy.

It seems like everyone thinks I'm saying "Troopers are good at shooting Aircraft". I am not saying this at all. They are quite bad at it. Allowing them to shoot at it but making them not very good in doing so makes it far more like the movies. Also we don't need forced non-Star-Warsy units like AA Troopers (again improving realism), yet we still get a bit more AA ability than only having an AA Mech (making for good gameplay). I should emphasise here that I have no dedicated AA Troopers (since they don't exist in the movies) so this allowance for Troopers to shoot Aircraft makes up for that too.

I am as yet unconvinced with anyone's arguments. I honestly thought the idea of not allowing Troopers to attack Aircraft unless the Aircraft shoots at them first would appease you unbelievers.

EDIT: Yay! 1000 posts!


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Last edited by Admiral Vostok; 09-28-2003 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 09-28-2003, 07:06 AM   #40
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vostok do u really need to please us all? u r gonna have the odd person not liking your ideas at all its just the way it goes.

i really dont wanna c 20 assults on da map id rather c 200 troops :P
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