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Old 12-01-2003, 01:02 PM   #241
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3. It is similar to what we saw in EpV in the art and abilities, and if you had a line of Rebel infantry entrnch themselves, the art would change from single holes to one long trench - there may even be bonus' "for team trenching"

5. I understand the concept behind your idea, and there is some merit, though not as much as mine
If you think about it, mine is actually realistic in that the troopers would fill up their trenches after use so the enemy couldnt use them


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Old 12-01-2003, 09:39 PM   #242
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3. I can't really see how this will work in practice. Infantry is usually in a group, not a line, so if you command them all to entrench they'll form not a trench but a big pit. Alternatively you could entrench them one by one in a line, but this takes a rediculous amount of micromanagement, so much so it renders your argument against the effort to build my trenches non-sensical. For your idea to work there must be a group bonus to avoid rediculous personal holes, but I can't see how it can work. Please explain.

5. As far as I'm aware in reality (presumably where realism comes from) infantry don't fill up their own trenches. Trenches are usually not intended to be as temporary as you are making them.

6 (new point). One of the key aspects of realism relating to trench warfare that your idea lacks entirely is the ability to move around inside trenches. Infantry garrissoned in the trench can move around in the trench up to two abreast, so can reposition themselves should an attack come from a different angle. Also because of this, my trenches can be used (again as in reality) like a protective walkway: you can build a trench from your Jedi Temple to your front line so Jedi can travel down the trench with greater protection rom outside fire. These two purposes (infantry firing out AND personnell protection) are how real trenches are used, and not only does yours do a poor job of realistically presenting the first purpose but it can't perform the second purpose at all.


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Old 12-01-2003, 11:50 PM   #243
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I fany of you actually played SWGB 1 you would know troop wars all happen in T2 and trenches being available then would make them over powered in a rush.


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Old 12-01-2003, 11:52 PM   #244
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Vostoks sound more like buildings and premanent structures where darths are more like a deployment option....


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Old 12-02-2003, 04:34 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
I fany of you actually played SWGB 1 you would know troop wars all happen in T2 and trenches being available then would make them over powered in a rush.
Quite right, Frozted, but this trench design is for SWGB2, not SWGB1. As such trenches will be properly balanced into the mix.


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Old 12-02-2003, 05:10 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
Vostoks sound more like buildings and premanent structures where darths are more like a deployment option....
Absolutely correct. The reason mine is the way it is, is because what i want for SWGB2 is large scale, intense battles which of course means that there needs to be less base micro and more emphasis on war.


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Old 12-02-2003, 10:19 AM   #247
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Well lets hope its all balanced otherwise the online community won't last long.....


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Old 12-02-2003, 11:43 PM   #248
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Windu, you say you want less micro, but explain how your idea can possibly work without micro (ie formulate a response to point 3 above).


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Old 12-03-2003, 04:51 AM   #249
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Vostok - the reason mine would be less micro to yours is becuase you would just use hotkeys to entrench and detrench your infantry.


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Old 12-03-2003, 09:45 AM   #250
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I say kill the trenches off its sounds stupid really stupid rebel troops will be way overpowered for starters. Its going to be crap seeing them trench themselves in like 30 secs anyways. Drop the trench garbage and its all good


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Old 12-03-2003, 12:33 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
1. I say kill the trenches off its sounds stupid really stupid 2. rebel troops will be way overpowered for starters. Its going to be crap seeing them trench themselves 3. in like 30 secs anyways. Drop the trench garbage and its all good
1. Not possible. In my template, the Rebel Alliance are the only civ that lacks Mechs, and so the Rebel infantry, as their only ground forces, have to have a strong defence to be able to repel mechs with the help of the Rebel Airforce.

2. Thats the point!

3. well, 30 secs is actually pretty long, it would be less than that. Besides, if i dropped the trench idea, the Rebels would be very underpowered, and to give them mechs would be to take away uniqueness from the template.


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Old 12-04-2003, 01:16 AM   #252
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Windu: you have avoided answering my question about the fact yours are personal holes, not trenches. Do they "entrench" in a line when you press the hotkey, are just all over place as though they were Zerglings burrowing?

Someone please comment on the other aspects I listed above with little 's before I do the Naboo.


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Old 12-04-2003, 02:16 AM   #253
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Windu your tempalte has no balance at all so really this doesnt apply to you cause your tempalte is all over the place. Overpowering rebel troops when troopers are the main weapon in battle is the stupidest idea in a long list of stupid ideas coming from you windu.


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Old 12-04-2003, 04:25 AM   #254
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Frozted - i dont recall saying that 'troopers are the main weapon in battle'. If you had actually bothered to read my template properly you would have noticed that players will need to concentrate on all groups of units in order to win. As the Rebels dont have mechs while all other civs do, the Rebel infantry needed to be beefed up.

Vostok - havent really decided yet. Individually, a trooper will just did a hole for him/herself but if in a group, they would likely build a trench for the extra fields of fire and realism.


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Old 12-04-2003, 09:34 AM   #255
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Your template is so unbalanced its not funny.


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Old 12-04-2003, 09:29 PM   #256
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Windu, speaking from a professional software programmer's point of view, there is no way you can make the "group trenching" idea work without a huge amount of micro. Mine is simple with a click and drag to build.

Also Frozted is right, Troopers are the main force in war which is why every civ has them and there are so many of them. And while making a certain civ strong in he Troopers is okay, making Troopers powerful enough to compete with Mechs is wrong. here need to be mech-destroying specialist troopers, but to make the whole Trooper class good vs mechs is not balanced.


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Old 12-06-2003, 04:09 AM   #257
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Frozted - thats for that detailed, in-depth review...

Vostok -
1. i dont see how. In 'Sid Meyers Gettysburg' and others you can tell your forces to change formation from column to line easily. All that would happen here is that the troopers in a group would change formation into a line, and then entrench

2. Troopers are not the main force in war. Mechs, Troopers, Aircraft and Ships are as important as each other, and without utilising a combined arms team you wont win.

3. I didnt say the Rebel troopers would be able to compete with Mechs. The main use of entrenching would be to enable them to hold off the mechs long enough to bring their Airforce into action.

4. I have anti-mech infantry, and they can be entrenched. As i said in the above point, the Rebels DO NOT have an anti-mech bonus.


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Old 12-06-2003, 10:04 AM   #258
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Yep making troops able to take on other troopers more effectively is one matter but able to take on mechs is just not good at all.


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Old 12-06-2003, 11:35 AM   #259
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Windu, I'm not saying you can't automatically change formation. But which way would the new line face? If you have just a mob or even a square of troopers, there are several different angles they could possibly reform into, and since the comp has no way of knowing which way they need to face it's quite conceivable they won't entrench right. Since you can't simply click and drag where the trench should exactly be, this method is very flawed, and not only could it take several goes to get the hang of, the infinite possible situations in which you could use the trench may make the auto line-up procedure entirely unpredictable. My click and drag is one entirely predictable, no mess procedure. Yours is an error prone, unpredictable procedure that gives the player less control over exactly what their forces do.

I won't argue the balance points because I feel something small like this can probably be easily balanced in.


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Old 12-06-2003, 01:39 PM   #260
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Frozted - try reading posts before replying to them, it helps...

Vostok - you could always make them make a square or circular trench. Besides, the AI isnt my responsibility.


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:27 AM   #261
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Okay, so the AI isn't your responsibility - so if this was a real game you were designing the guy who is responsible for the AI would say it can't be done adequately.

Just take a moment to think how frustratingly hard it would be to entrench a group of troopers your way, then consider mine and how it is just as easy as placing walls. Besides you still haven't responded to point 6 above which is the major disadvantage of your method.


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:35 AM   #262
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This trench thing is still not good at all. Whats stopping someone from getting a sheild up sheilded trenches and troops inside nice army at the back of the trench. Can anybody say OVERPOWERED!!


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:38 AM   #263
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Huh?

Well, I think trenches should be available late in the game. That way they won't be overpowered. Besides, some mechs, a few aircrafts and that's it the trench is gone. It's not really different from walls and turrets in GB1...


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Old 12-07-2003, 01:44 AM   #264
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Yeah Frozted. How is it any different to walls currently?

I've made a couple of changes. Luke's Dad, to counter the problem you saw earlier with respect to building Medium Transports, instead of giving the Alliance Centre more pop I've instead added a building called the Support Centre, which builds Resource Skiff, Power Droid and Medium Transport, allowing the Alliance Centre to concentrate on Astromech building. Check it out here.

Someone comment on my Astromechs in X-Wings and Y-Wings already.


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Old 12-07-2003, 02:42 AM   #265
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Frozted - whats your point? If an Imperial player had a group of AT-AT's behind a shield would you be yelling OVERPOWERED?

Vostok - as i said, AI isnt my responsibility, but im sure the guys at LA are good enough to come up with a solution.
As for point 6, you are right, my infantry cant move around in the trench, but really i dont think that matters - besides, the rebels werent moving around much in them anyway.

As for your astromech idea, i dont like (but then you already knew i was going to say that) because to me it's too much micro.


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Old 12-07-2003, 02:47 AM   #266
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Nevertheless Windu, it's gonna be awful.

As for Astromechs, it's a bit of micro but it does add some special features... Perhaps a simple research with making the cost of thos fighters higher(cost of fighter +cost of 1 astromech) might be simpler.


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Old 12-07-2003, 03:46 AM   #267
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But shouldn't they all have walls?


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Old 12-07-2003, 05:20 AM   #268
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Windu, Luke's Dad - Hmm, you're right, too much micro. What about if you just garrison an Astromech in the Airfield itself? Then Airfields with Astromechs in can build Astromech-equipped X-Wings and Y-Wings, for a bit extra cost.

Frozted - Yes, all civs have walls, and Rebels get the Trench in addition. Trenches can't be built from the start of the game but become available mid-game.

All - Royal Naboo are now up so check them out.


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Old 12-07-2003, 06:51 AM   #269
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I don't see the point in an Architect they just place buildings? Kinda weird but anyways.

"The Rebels' most valued resource is Wealth" found a small glitch


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Old 12-07-2003, 07:25 AM   #270
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Just thought the Architect added a bit of uniqueness while emphasising the fact that the Naboo would be the most formal about how their towns are built.

Thanks for the glitch-finding .


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Old 12-07-2003, 07:54 AM   #271
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Kinda makes them vulnerable especially when you want to set up a forward base. All the enemy has to do is kill the Architect and thats it the workers are useless.


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Old 12-07-2003, 09:05 AM   #272
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Actually I just realised how annoying it would be to use the Architect. So I've changed the way he works. Setting up forward bases is still a bit of a problem, but if you bring sufficient protection or just mount him in a fast transport it should be okay. I've also made it that you don't need the Architect for Resource Points because that would be very limiting. Check out the new way the Architect works.


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Old 12-10-2003, 11:33 PM   #273
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Any more comments? (Thinly disguised bump)


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Old 12-10-2003, 11:48 PM   #274
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Yeah one thing. You gave the Naboo a grenadier. I don't see why. It's not very naboo-ish...
I kept the grenadier for the rebels since at the battle of hoth, you saw a rebel trooper running out of the trench with some round shaped object attached(sp?) to his back. It could be a demolition trooper though...I thought it was a mortar or something...


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Old 12-10-2003, 11:53 PM   #275
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Okay I'll get rid of the grenadier. He was mainly for anti-building infantry, but now that I think about it he would probably make Naboo Troopers better than they should be. He's gone.

Anything else?


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Old 12-10-2003, 11:56 PM   #276
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That's about what I can see...

Oh wait the repeater gunner. At first it seems ok but again it makes Naboo trooper stronger then they can be. This is arguable though since their absence would make the Naboo trooper very very weak.


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Old 12-11-2003, 12:19 AM   #277
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That's what I thought too. The Naboo Troopers aren't totally incompetent after all.


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Old 12-11-2003, 12:48 AM   #278
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Well perhaps you should look for another unit then a repeater gunner. The Naboo don't seem to be really a spread-and-spray kind of civ. They should be concentrating on more accurate shots and less wasting of ammo.


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Old 12-11-2003, 01:27 AM   #279
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Maybe they should have a rocket trooper then.


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Old 12-11-2003, 01:35 AM   #280
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A rocket trooper?
How is that supposed to be more accurate?
I see that the demolition trooper has already been kept for the rebels...
Huh...I would have done it the other way around, grenadier for rebs, demolition troopers for naboo.
Perhaps a sniper unit could be a good replacement for a repeater. Or some kind of stealthy commando trooper.


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