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Old 12-11-2003, 01:55 AM   #281
Darth Windu
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Luke - thats why the Naboo in my idea have the Sniper whereas the 'beefier' civs like the Empire get the Repeater.


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Old 12-11-2003, 10:00 PM   #282
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The trooper we're discussing here needs to be good against either Air or Mechs. A sniper would obviously be good only against Infantry.

As for grenadiers and demolition troopers: for starters we see Rebel demolition troopers in the movies (Return of the Jedi blowing up the Shield Generator) so that is a no-brainer. But otherwise I think a demolition trooper type of unit for Naboo would go against their style. Using a demolition charge just seems to "dirty" for the Naboo - I think they'd prefer the cleaner method of long-ranged artillery. You probably don't accept that as a valid explanation, but to me Naboo demolition troopers just doesn't seem right. Ca you picture a guy in his bright red leather armour sneaking in to plant a bomb? This is another reason - the Naboo's preference for bright colours over comouflage - that I think a Sniper or Guerrilla wouldn't be suitable either.

So now I've talked myself into keeping the Grenadier, but I will get rid of the repeater guy.


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Old 12-11-2003, 10:21 PM   #283
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I think the Repeater guy is actually more naboo-ish then a grenadier...
It's artillerry, but not a accurate single shots classy artillery unit. A rocket trooper is actually better then a grenadier.


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Old 12-12-2003, 01:07 AM   #284
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Well yes I do agree with that... that's why I suggested Rocket Trooper before.


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Old 12-12-2003, 01:16 AM   #285
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We're going around and around and around and around...

Anyone got a better idea then a rocket trooper?


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Old 12-12-2003, 02:58 AM   #286
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Well, this is why i have the Rocket Trooper for EVERY civ. That way, they all have a good anti-Mechs and anti-Aircraft trooper.

As for Demolitions vs Artillery, i tend to agree with Vostok, but then thats why the Naboo have the Royal Cannon.

Also, with Repeater Troopers vs Sniper, i really think a Sniper is much better for the Naboo. It is more elegant, and fits in with the Royal Naboo being a 'Security Force' - i mean really, think of how many police forces have Snipers as compared to Heavy Machine Guns.


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Old 12-12-2003, 04:13 AM   #287
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Windu: Yes a sniper would be better than a repeater, but the sniper isn't that suitable either. And I don't want to give everyone rocket troopers because that is too generic and when it comes down to it rocket troopers aren't a common enough sight to be generic units.


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Old 12-13-2003, 08:33 AM   #288
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Well, although they woul dbe generic, i really dont see a better option. then, troopers are generic as well, and i dont see a problem there either.

Really, if you think about it, having generic rocket troopers even makes sense in a realism way. What better infantry system is there to take out mechs and aircraft? Add to that the fact that similar systems have been used by Bounty Hunter's (Jango) and are in EU and to me that looks like the way to go.


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Old 12-13-2003, 11:51 PM   #289
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Aside: Exactly why do you consider yourself a Star Wars Purist, Windu?

Yes, laser Troopers are Generic, because they are generic in the movies. No, rocket troopers could not be generic because out of the seven civs in the movies precisely zero have rocket troopers. However, giving one or two civs a rocket trooper isn't too bad, because that doesn't make them a generic at all. I think a rocket trooper is suitable for the Naboo, probably more than for most other civs now I think about it.


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Old 12-14-2003, 01:01 AM   #290
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Vostok - you're missing the point. Why are laser trooper generic? Becuase it is cheap and easy to equip a person with a gun and tell them to go and fight. In addition, troopers like that are good at a lot of jobs.

Ask yourself then, why would rocket troopers be generic? Becuase it would be a simple way to equip anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft units of various armies. As i said, we've seen Jango use the system, so obviously its practical, and just because we havent seen them in the movies doesnt mean anything. What is there in the movies that is better than a rocket trooper or even close to an anti-Mech, anti-Aircraft trooper?

Since we have this lack of options from the movies, i came up with the rocket trooper to fill the obvious gap, and so far, the following have come to the same conclusion as i have-
1. Star Wars EU
2. Star Wars: Imperial Assault (Generals mod)

and i'm sure there are others.


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Old 12-14-2003, 05:31 AM   #291
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In the movies, which you would stick to a lot more if you were a true purist, the task of anti-mech and anti-air is assigned to mechs and air. There might be the odd specialist in one army or another, but generically speaking there is no dedicated anti-vehicular troopers in Star Wars.

This obviously wouldn't work in the game, but what it translates to is no widespread generic role of anti-vehicular troopers. Each civ has a different trooper weapon for dealing with vehicles, there is no one right answer. Hence no generic use of rocket launchers.

Would the Gungans carry a rocket launcher? Would the Trade Federation bother equipping battle droids with anti-vehicular weaponry when their Mechs are so powerful and can do the job instead? What of the Rebels, surely if they had a great way to counter vehicles they would have used it at Hoth or Endor.

If you still believe a rocket launcher is the only way to go for every civ I may have to excommunicate you from the Temple of Purism.


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Old 12-14-2003, 07:06 AM   #292
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Vostok - you are missing the point. Of course every army would have rocket troopers because INFANTRY FREQUENTLY OPERATE WITHOUT ARMOUR OR AIR SUPPORT!!!

That is why every army would be equipped with rocket troopers. Aside from that, having infantry armed with anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft weapons would be far cheaper to use than other Mechs and Aircraft.
As we saw on Hoth, the AT-AT's were immune to any non-harpoon Rebel weapon, so that absence of rocket troopers there is irrelevant, and as for Endor, they proabably didnt think there would be armour there.

Would the Gungans use Rocket Troopers? No. But then thats why in my combined Naboo civ, the Royal Naboo Rocket Troopers provide infantry anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft support.


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Old 12-14-2003, 10:21 AM   #293
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Actually I've seen and heard about alot of Civs using the rocket launcher. And TF used rocket launchers to take out gunships just wasn't shown in the movie it got cut. Windu isn't a purist cause his mind isn't clouded with boundaries and templates based entirely on movies.


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Old 12-14-2003, 05:27 PM   #294
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I believe in the movies and most other EU thingies, they use Ion Cannon or weapons to counter mechs. That's not a very good argument...


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Old 12-14-2003, 09:46 PM   #295
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Quote:
Windu isn't a purist cause his mind isn't clouded with boundaries and templates based entirely on movies.
Exactly. Only change the word "clouded" with the phrase "remaining pure". But Windu's faith isn't the real issue here.

If we want a game that plays just like the battles in the movies (because lets face it, that will be the big draw and will most likely be mentioned somewhere on the back of the box) we cannot have rocket trooper infantry en masse, because that just isn't he case. If Star Wars was a documentary of the real world, then yes, using Windu's real world arguments we could conclude there would logically be rocket troopers. But the truth is Star Wars is only a movie: it is not real. Obviously to capture the feeling of the movie we need to base the game entirely on the movies, not delve into EU or the even further removed real world.


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Old 12-15-2003, 02:02 AM   #296
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Well I don't won't a game entirely based on the movies soon you'll be saying for Republic we have to fly to Kamino and order an army.


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Old 12-15-2003, 02:27 AM   #297
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Let me clarify for Frozted who seems to have trouble understanding:

Battles should look and play like they would in the movies, while army production and resource gathering, while relating to the movies where relevant, mostly follows the standard RTS format.


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Old 12-15-2003, 03:26 AM   #298
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Vostok - i agree, the battles should be like they are in the movies, but then, not all of the battles are possible in an RTS. I mean, seriously, how could you defeat AT-ST's with Ewoks in RTS?

Mechs and Aircraft are the best respective counters to Mechs and Aircraft, but it makes no sense for both Realism and Gameplay to leave infantry without an anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft trooper, and the rocket trooper is the best unit for those purposes. As we have seen, EU authors, the creators of 'Imperial Assault' and 'Galactic Battlegrounds' have come to the same conclusion.


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Old 12-15-2003, 11:12 AM   #299
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Well I have news for you Voscock who loves making himself feel smarter and more superior and talks to people like they are stupid. And for someone to be telling us how a RTS game should work you don't play much RTS yourself isn't that right...

You will rarely get your large scale battles cause there is gonna be raiding and rushing and that is not going anywhere in the world of RTS sorry to say.Unless your gonna sit and your ass and you and your opponent are gonna let each other build mass armies and hope you have the best and strongest one its not happening.

So basically what your saying is your whole idea of the next game is eye candy you couldn't give a **** how gameplay turns out you just want your eye candy. And just cause you have never been rejected before on these boards like I'm rejecting your ideas now is no need to get all huffy.


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Old 12-15-2003, 08:01 PM   #300
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
Well I have news for you Voscock
I suggest you use valid arguments only and watch your language next time.


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Old 12-15-2003, 10:10 PM   #301
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Well it doesn't take much effort to make myself seem smarter and more superior when you resort to childish names, Frozted. Ouch, by the way.

Most RTS games I've played - and I do play quite a lot, I don't know why you think otherwise - have rushing, raiding and large scale battles. This is just how it should be.


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Old 12-16-2003, 02:56 AM   #302
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I still think I'm an ass so it doesn't matter.


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Old 12-16-2003, 04:28 AM   #303
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Frozted - and acting the way you are is going to get a total of zero people to listen to you.


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Old 12-16-2003, 04:55 AM   #304
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Anyway, back on topic. I agree there should be some sort of Air and Mech counter infantry, as you can see from my SWGB2 design. But I don't think every single civ should have a rocket trooper as that counter infantry. As Luke's Dad said, ion weapons are a worthy alternative. I think in some cases heavy repeating weapons would make good anti-vehicular weaponry. The Gungan's big boomas, which can be launched by Militiagung other than Jar Jar, seem to perform excellently against Mechs. And looking at other anti-vehicular weaponry the case is still the same. Turbolaser turrets are usually used as anti-air weaponry. Variants of the Hoth Ion Cannon would also be successful.

My point is we don't need rocket launchers for every single civ when there are viable alternatives, especially when rocket troopers are not evident in the movies.


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Old 12-16-2003, 11:19 AM   #305
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Vostok - i'd love to see a 'big booma trooper' throw one at a TIE fighter flying at maximum speed...

The point is, Rocket Troopers are necessary. The only ion cannons we have seen are rather large and bulky, plus they dont actually destroy anything, just disable it so thats not a good idea. As for repeater troopers, they are better for dealing with massed trooper attacks rather than mechs. Sure, they could do a lot of damage to attacks from Droideka's and AT-PT, but they wouldnt even scratch the larger ones like the AT-TE, whereas in Ep2 we see a rocket shatter one.


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Old 12-16-2003, 09:40 PM   #306
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I wasn't suggesting big boomahs were good against air, I was suggesting they were good against mechs.

As for repeaters, if they're no good against vehicles why did the Snowtroopers set one up to shoot at the Millennium Falcon? I think repeaters are actually supposed to be anti-vehicular weaponry, there is not much in the movies to suggest they are anti-personnel.

In my design, most civs don't have a trooper that is good against Air. To me this doesn't make sense because troopers aren't meant to be good against Air. Troopers shouldn't be capable of handling every threat. This is the case in most games: if you have a force made entirely of only one class of unit you will be vulnerable to another type of unit. Those civs that do have an anti-air trooper only do so because their mechs are deficient in this regard.


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Old 12-16-2003, 11:18 PM   #307
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I think rocket troopers would be kinda bad for a Star Wars battle cause once you have a mass of rocket troopers and normal troopers so then you counter everything.


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Old 12-16-2003, 11:58 PM   #308
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Frozted actually brings up the best point to counter strong anti-air/mech trooper. Civ like the rebels and the wookiees who have very strong trooper are gonna totally impossible to beat in early games. Just massing up rocket and laser troopers.

As repeaters, that also makes alot of sense. Repeater weapons should be used against air-units(perhaps not mechs).


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Old 12-17-2003, 01:23 AM   #309
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Well here's another issue:
Windu has taken the idea from C&C:Generals that there should be rocket troopers that are excellent against both aircraft and mechs. However, Aircraft play a bigger role in Star Wars, so does combining the anti-air and anti-mech role into one unit overpower it? I'm thinking yes. There should be separate infantry units to counter mechs and aircraft, not one mega unit that can do both. It worked in C&C:Generals because Air wasn't important enough by itself - GLA don't even have aircraft. But for SWGB2 I think it won't work.


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Old 12-17-2003, 04:46 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frozted_MM's
I still think I'm an ass so it doesn't matter.
Is that a typo?

Vostok - actually i didnt, becuase i dont own the game and have played a whole 1 mission, the first US mission.

Anyhow, i didnt say that rocket troopers should be EXCELLENT against mechs and aircraft, mearly that they should be GOOD against them. As i said, i agree that the best anti-Mech weapons should be Mechs, and the best anti-Aircraft weapons should be Aircraft.

As for my rocket trooper idea, im going to relate it to the real world. In the US Army, some infantry are equipped with the FIM-92 Stinger SAM. It's lightweight, easy to carry and easy to use, but isnt really powerful nor does it have a long range.
Then you have the Chaparrel missile launcher. Based on an M-113 chassis, it carries a few SAM version of the AIM-9 Sidewinder. The missiles are longer ranged and more powerful than the Stinger, but still on a mobile, armoured chassis.
Then you have the Patriot. A large, semi-mobile SAM system with long range, very powerful SAM's.

Getting to the point, the Patriot is better than the Chaparrel, which is better than the Stinger, but all are required for different roles. THAT is why i want the rocket trooper to shoot at air and mechs, because it wont be very powerful or have a long range, but will suffice in the anti-Mech/anti-Aircraft role if you cant bring other Mechs or Aircraft to bear.

Any questions?


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Old 12-17-2003, 05:24 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
As for my rocket trooper idea, im going to relate it to the real world.
Why am I not surprised?

I could say for the millionth time that Star Wars isn't the real world, but that isn't going to stop you comparing the two, so I'll just roll with it...

You make a decent point, but you've slightly missed mine. I don't have a problem per se with rocket troopers essentially. What I object to is their widespread use across all races and civs. One or two civs can have rocket troopers, but all of them should not. There are other, more unique, more characterful, more Star-Warsy weapons for infantry to use on mechs and aircraft. For some suggestions as to what these weapons might be, take a look at my civ design... that's what this thread is about after all .


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Old 12-17-2003, 07:02 AM   #312
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Well, the point i was making in my comparison to the real world is that infantry anti-aircraft systems arent as powerful as larger systems like base-defence of armoured units.

I still think Rocket Troopers would be generic. We have already seen that both the Confederacy and Republic use rockets. We have also seen that Jango Fett uses rockets, and so they are man-portable.
One would think, then, that if the Republic used rocket troopers, so would the Empire. Due to the Rebel's need for equipment, they would too.
The confederacy used them, so it could be assumed that the Federation used them.
Going along this path, that leaves only the Naboo and Wookiees, and i really dont see a problem with them using Rocket Troopers.

As for being generic, i do have slightly different variations. For example, due to the lack of a Wookiee Airforce, Wookiee Rocket Troopers are more powerful and have a longer range than all the others. This is to make up for that lack of an airforce and also, realistically, Wookiees could handle larger systems.
The rebels also have systems that are better against Mechs than the other Rocket Troopers to partially make up for their lack of Mechs.


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Old 12-17-2003, 07:30 PM   #313
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hmmm...Now you've just heavily downpowered the wookiees by not giving them aircrafts.

As for your assumption, it's only an assumption. You cannot tell if rockets we're heavily used. I doubt it.

Rockets troopers whether or not they're only good or excellent, the simple fact that it can counter both mech and air heavily overpowers trooper oriented civs.


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Old 12-17-2003, 10:39 PM   #314
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The Wookiees don't have any Aircraft? Well that totally goes against the existing EU material, and while I don't condone EU there is no denying the Wookiees will have to be heavily influenced by it. That really makes no sense, Windu. If Wookiees have no air, how can Chewbacca be such a good pilot?

But besides, you've said it yourself that there are different rockets that are carried by infantry and vehicles. Therefore, just because a civ has vehicle rockets it doesn't automatically follow that their troopers will carry rockets too. And while Jango Fett carries a single rocket (not several, by the way) I hardly thing the greatest soldier in the galaxy would have the same equipment as ordinary troopers.

Your logic doesn't follow, either. Just because the Republic uses rockets doesn't mean the Empire does. The Empire doesn't use Gunships, does it? Due to the Rebel's need for equipment... what does that mean? Everyone needs "equipment". As for the Confederacy and Trade Federation, I suppose you believe the Trade Federation uses sonic weaponry too?

Plus as Luke's Dad said, even making them "good" instead of "excellent" against both Air and Mechs is still pretty powerful, and will overpower trooper-strong civs.


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Old 12-18-2003, 02:03 AM   #315
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Why is the ability of Lucasarts personnel to balance a game always questioned? Do you not believe they have the ability while you do?

Anyhow,
Luke - not true. The Wookiee's have never had aircraft in my template, just as the Rebels dont have Mechs and the Hutts dont have Ships. These are done for realism purposes, but also help in that they have the civs more unique. Of course Wookiee ground forces are better at anti-air than other civs, just like the Rebels anti-Mech forces are better than other civs.

Vostok - so you're saying that a nation without an airforce cant produce pilots?

As for rockets, why do i have to explain this again? The use of Rockets by the Confederacy and Republic show that those sorts of weapons were liked and widely used. We also see that Jango Fett used a rocket. Now, if Jango Fett can carry one Rocket along with the other gear in his backpack, including the Jet's, surely his Clones would be able to carry two or three. Furthermore, if a human can carry two or three, so can a droid.

The Empire took over from the Republic and it's weapons. So then, the Empire would already have Rocket's for their infantry, why bother trying to find a new weapon system when the one you have is perfectly capable of doing it's job?

The Rebels, because of their desperate situation, would have Rocket Troopers becuase of weapons they either found or removed from dead bodies. Besides, when you're fighting for your survival against a much larger and better-equipped enemy, there isnt much time to invent new weapons.

As for the Rocket Troopers being overpowered - NO THEY WONT BE! If all you have as your primary anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft weapons are Rocket Troopers, you're going to be trounced rather quickly. Besides, if the guys at Westwood could balance an anti-Mech/anti-Aircraft Infantry unit, why cant Lucasarts?


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Old 12-18-2003, 09:44 AM   #316
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No thats not a typo cause I am an ass to all of you :P



And disabling a unit set as important as mechs is just wrong. Well the guys at Westwood had a huge problem on there hands there civs were unbalanced even after 10 patches they still couldn't balance them really pissing the multiplayer community off.

Well the Empire does use rockets ever play JK2?

AND YOU CAN'T RELATE A FANTASY WORLD LIKE STAR WARS TO THE REAL WORLD PEOPLE PLAY AND LOVE STAR WARS CAUSE ITS NOTHING LIKE THE REAL WORLD!!!!!

Whats next you want to add some tanks and US marines in there as well?


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Old 12-18-2003, 01:30 PM   #317
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*sigh* let me explain this again. I wasnt relating the units themselves to the real world, but the system. If you look at Star Wars it is still true. For example, Jango's rocket is smaller than the rockets on the Hailfire droid.
As for Star Wars being a fantasy world and all that, it is still built on rules. Some you can bend, others you can break...oh, sorry, wrong film.

Anyway, Star Wars battles are still based on the real world. To get ANH's dogfights, GL watched archival WW2 fighter gun-camera footage. To get the 'feel' of the Republic Gunship, GL watched footage of US Army assault helo's. To get the Millenium Falcon's turret guns right, GL watched footage of WW2 Bomber turret guns.

See a pattern yet?

Oh yeah, as for the Mechs thing, THATS WHY I GAVE REBEL INFANTRY THE ABILITY TO DEPLOY INTO TRENCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Old 12-18-2003, 02:27 PM   #318
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i can't believe you guys are still debating the same old crap all this time when it will have zero bearing on any future game... if there even is one.



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Old 12-18-2003, 06:29 PM   #319
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You don't get it Windu. It's so heavily unbalanced. How will wookiees be able to win any island or space maps? How can they do that without an air force?


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Old 12-19-2003, 04:21 AM   #320
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luke - well, first of all, i think that Space maps for an RTS with infantry in it are a really, really stupid idea, so im just gonna skip that one.

As for islands, the Wookiees really arent disadvantaged at all. They have very strong ground forces, with excellent anti-aircraft systems. Furthermore, their Navy is second only to the Gungans, and is far more powerful than most.
Hence, all you need to do is build up your fleet, establish an LZ and insert ground forces.
BTW, the Wookiees can defeat the Gungan Navy, so there's no problems there either.


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Last edited by Darth Windu; 12-19-2003 at 09:43 AM.
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