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Old 09-27-2003, 02:45 AM   #41
razorace
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I'm not for limited source code distrobution either.

However, I have no problems with us denying access to known troublemakers. And the only way to do that is to require everyone to contact us before giving out the password. With the repository I got set up, I have to pass out a password to the repository anyway.


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Old 09-27-2003, 02:51 AM   #42
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What's to stop someone from contacting you under an alternate alias? It's not going to work. If someone wants the source code, they are going to get it.


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Old 09-27-2003, 04:27 AM   #43
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True, but there's nothing wrong with at least trying to keep them out. If we keep records and find out that a banned individual has gotten the code, we might be able to track it back to whoever did it. Plus, we could act immediately against the banned individual instead of having to try to be "fair".

EDIT: Plus, we can do additional things like knowing who's using our code legally and so on.

Any luck with sourceforge?


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Old 09-27-2003, 04:40 AM   #44
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No, that won't matter. You cannot prevent someone from getting the code if they want it. It's much easier and more effective to just get the crap taken down, this is going to hinder development for legit coders. Especially when you want to take all these precautions because of one guy who, at least I haven't seen in many ages. Are you trying to inflate his ego or what? We should let it go and not be intimidated by idiots.

SourceForge hasn't replied, but I can try a few other places.


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:54 AM   #45
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How's it going to hinder legit developers? All you gotta do is email one of the moderators and tell them who you are and why you want access. If they're too lazy to do that, they're going to be too lazy to configure their copy of CVS to access the repository or too lazy to pimp their code up to an acceptable level anyway.

On the useage side of things, the rules I've suggested have two main purposes:

1. To help ensure the rights (and credit) of the modders to their work. A lot of people are very concerned about this. If strict rules are the difference between people contributing and not contributing, we need to have the rules in place.

2. To hopefully limit the widespread of "me too" mods that hurt the JK2 community.

If we're not too concerned about either of the two, that's fine. We need to do whatever is the most likely to get good modders to pretipate. I think that the good modders need to feel that their code is going to be properly creditted than allowing super free access.


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:39 AM   #46
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Just some input:

About the whole credit issue. I think we shouldn't be so egotistical about it... i say screw it. Sure a credits list for the project is desirable, but if someone uses our work i don't think we should be so insistant on them giving their sources away. Sure it's ideal, and we should request that it be done, but honestly not everyone's going to do it no matter what you say. Hopefully when this thing takes off it'll be really popular and thus, if someone takes code from OJP and uses it in their mod people are just going to know where it came from anyway.

And about how open the source code is... i think it should be fully open. Downloadable from the website, and up to date with the latest build that's been released. I really can't see it any other way. As Emon has been saying, i really think that could potentially slow down production too.

Also, maybe this has already been figured out, but this is how i was thinking the whole source code updating process would be handled:
[list=1][*]The client sends a moderator an email with the source code that they're wanting to contibute to the project[*]Then the update will have to be offically accepted[*]If it is accepted, it'll be added to the base project as a new update (by a moderator)[*]Then a beta test will be sent back to the client, for them to test it out to make sure it was implimented properly[*]The client will then have to reply, confirming this[*]Then the new build is released to the public[/list=1]
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Old 09-27-2003, 08:52 AM   #47
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That seems fair.

That's one vote for "screw it. Open Source TO THE EXTR3M3!!!!".

I'm undecided. I just want to do whatever most people can get behind.


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Old 09-27-2003, 09:54 AM   #48
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Well, to me it seems most people are saying:

a. Rules are scaring a load of us

b. Some don't think the rules can actually be 'enforced' that easiely anyway in the first place.


I think a. is unfounded. 99% of us do not need to be worried by the rules, because most modders I've met have been perfectly nice and reasonable people. i.e. the rules will most likely not end up affecting most of as at all.
...at most, you might get the odd suggestion about - I donno - about maybe this feature should be cvar'ed or slightly altered because it clashes with this feature already in the OJP etc.etc. Maintenance type stuff - just to keep the OJP nice and organised. That's all it will be for most of us.

THe main 'rules' are only to combat a minority who wish to abuse stuff. Who knows - that minority may not even be a problem this time round. But I think it would be unwise to leave things open for that kind of abuse this time round again.


Concerning b., however, I think people may be somewhat correct about this - and why it's not really worth trying to make things TOO restrictive in an effort to try and make this 'water-tight', because I don't think this is possible.
I think it's enough to have the rule in place and say 'We will do whatever we can to enforce this'. This will deter some people. Maybe not all - granted. But there is NOTHING we can do about the very possibility of rips without making the source much less OPEN. And I agree with Emon here - this is the whole point of the project in the first place.

SO I say give out access freely, but make sure the 'rules' are nice and clear, and let people know we will take 'some kind of action' if they don't follow them. There ARE steps we can take - it's not like people will be able to have completely free reign here.

Assuming the OJP becomes fairly universally recognised, that in itself gives it some 'pulling' power around the community etc.


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Old 09-27-2003, 01:33 PM   #49
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I can see you wanting to stop the "me too" mods (which, by the way, were gameplay based, we aren't going to be making any gameplay changes probably, removing any possibility of that), but having people e-mail for the source code is not going to help! I bet you we'd end up authorizing every damn e-mail and it won't have mattered any way. Tracking? Please, what's that going to let you do? It all boils down to you contacting a site and making them take the mod off, how is knowing who e-mailed you going to help? They could have sent an anonymous e-mail. Sure, you can trace it, but how does that help! Oh no, you can tell a guy lives in Germany that stole our code! Whoop dee ****ing doo, we still call up LucasFiles and tell them to take it down.

Afterall, this is all over ONE person who I haven't seen in a long time. If we're doing this entirely to stop BOFH from stealing our code, then please, grow up. It's also inflating his ego!

If something severe happens, then let's limit the code distribution. But for now, I don't see a damn reason to.

Additionally, I think we should release the code in actual mod form for end users. JA's got more map entities, but not enough. It would be nice if mappers could make maps to use OJP's public releases. Since it doesn't make gameplay changes, it would be ideal for servers that don't run mods and want to run some fancy levels. And also, we'd have to release only major revisions, because no one wants to update OJP every other week.


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Old 09-27-2003, 02:36 PM   #50
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Quote:
Additionally, I think we should release the code in actual mod form for end users. JA's got more map entities, but not enough. It would be nice if mappers could make maps to use OJP's public releases. Since it doesn't make gameplay changes, it would be ideal for servers that don't run mods and want to run some fancy levels. And also, we'd have to release only major revisions, because no one wants to update OJP every other week.
I agree, we should definelty have an official OJP mod released and playable by the public.

Actually, my idea I was thinking about would be to possibly have a couple of different versions. I haven't really thought this through thouroughly yet - so don't dismiss the idea straight away! - but I was thinking of something along the lines of:

OJP Basic
------------
This would be JUST bug fixes and anything which are improvments, but don't alter basic gameplay - like you've said Emon.

OJP Fun
----------
This includes all the OJP basic stuff - PLUS...
all the 'cool' extra (gameplay changing) features cvar'ed up. This is for the less serious gamer who just wants to chill out, and doesn't bother too much about conformity etc. (There are a lot of players like this)

...and maybe even...

OJP Pro
---------
With some established tweaks. This one would probably end up being quite a sticking point for some people, and could end up being like a 1.03, 1.04 patch senario!!
So, not even sure we want to go there - but it's a possibility anyway...


I just seems to me that if we only release an OJP mod which doesn't alter gameplay AT ALL, there could be tons of features which never get seen in the OJP mod.

Then you have to rely on these features getting used in other mods. If they happen to never get used, or only get used in rather obscure mods, then - doh - they basically went to the trouble of adding a feature that didn't really get used - even if the feature was actually quite good!

SO I think having 2 or 3 versions of the OJP mod sorts that out.
i.e. if you do add something to the OJP, you are almost certainly assured to have it show up in at least 1 of the OJP variations.
And you cater to a wider variety of gamer too.

Of course,I wouldn't start making 10 different 'original' OJP mods - that's a bit OTT, and you've just started the whole fragmentation thing yourself!! But I think 2 or 3 types are reasonable...


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Old 09-27-2003, 02:42 PM   #51
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Well, Re: Fragmentation - that's going to happen anyway.

You can't tell people to be original - it's something they'll have to do themselves.

I plan on radically changing gameplay in my mod, I agree with Emon that gameplay shouldn't be changed by the OJP - but I think that certain fixes and improvements could be made without destroying gameplay (because gameplay is in shambles as it is).

Whatever I want to add on top of that is my business


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Old 09-27-2003, 02:46 PM   #52
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Whatever I want to add on top of that is my business
I totally agree...
...as long as your not 99% similar to another OJP mod - which I think is reasonable to ask...

(or some high percentage - 98% would probably not be good either! )

Since you plan on 'radically changing gameplay', sounds like you'll have absolutely no problem with meeting that requirement.
Can't wait to see what you come up with btw...

Quote:
(because gameplay is in shambles as it is)
This is a totally objective opinion.
(I don't have one yet - I've just bought the game this second. I haven't even got round to installing it yet! lol )
But I've spent enough time in the Jedi Academy forums to know that there are very much two sides to that story...


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Old 09-27-2003, 04:43 PM   #53
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Yes, there are definately two sides, and it looks like it's boiling down to patches. Some people think patches are bad, I disagree. I think the only reason it was bad for JO was because LEC pulled the plug, and Raven started working on JA. That, and **** just happens, some people made some bad choices or mistakes, it isn't garunteed to happen again.


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Old 09-27-2003, 04:45 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wudan
You can't tell people to be original - it's something they'll have to do themselves.
That's sort of what I was getting it, thank you for stating so. Really guys, making people e-mail you for the source code isn't going to stop look alike mods.


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:08 PM   #55
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I agree - I am no longer suggesting people e-mail us for access to the source code initially. I'm totally down with that. I have been for quite a few posts now.

What I am proposing HAS to be organised fairly well is the releasing of NEW mods built from OJP source code.

I guess this should require some kind of request e-mail, along with the description of the mod etc.
But anyway - let's just decide what permissions are needed first. Once we know that, then we get a bit more nitty-gritty and decide exactly how they should work...


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:23 PM   #56
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What do you mean, new mods built with OJP?

Razorace and Wudan, what are your mod ideas? I'm also thinking about a mod I'd like to do, and if our plans aren't far off, I think it would be to the best for all of us to combine efforts. Basically, I want to take what's in JA, fix it (if not fixed in patches), and improve upon it. Right now I'm thinking of scoping the E-11 and bowcaster, and bringing back some guns from DF and JK.


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:39 PM   #57
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Blimey!
...what have we been talking about this whole time?!

Please check my very first post in this thread:

Quote:
Overall, it seems the aim of the OJP is to provide a standard 'library' of bug fixes / improvements etc. That's fine - I get that. And I see the need for these bug fixes / improvements to be regulated and controlled.

Now - from what I've read - the idea is that mods are built 'on top of' OJP - i.e. using the OJP code as a base. If this is the case - then woohoo - this is great!
If this wasn't the idea, you maybe should have mentioned something earlier...

I don't mind disagreeing on things - but if your not going to read my posts properly, this makes things very difficult.

If the idea ISN'T to build new mods 'on top of' the OJP source, then I see it as a very limited concept. Sure - it may have appeal to a few developers who have very similar ideas on what they want to do. But what about the rest of us who DO possibly want to change gameplay a bit? Even drastically?

Are we just plain out of luck? i.e. the OJP can't really do anything for us?!


Emon - if you just want to get a few people together to make a mod, you don't need a big, old open source project for that, you just need to get a mod team together!!


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:46 PM   #58
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I don't know, I read your posts, but I got confused some how.

That's definately the idea behind OJP, it always has been. I'm confused, when was there confusion on that??


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Old 09-27-2003, 05:57 PM   #59
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LOL!

...when you said this:

Quote:
What do you mean, new mods built with OJP?
I think everybody is confused now - certainly including myself!!

Tell ya what - you tell me whatever language your speaking, I'll go off and learn it (it seems to be like English, but slightly different) and then we'll carry on the conversation!

[edit]
I'm sorry - I'm just getting a bit fustrated here. I think I've been making myself pretty clear...

When I say 'new mods built from OJP source code' - I mean 'new mods which use some OJP source code'. Is that clear?

Is anybody else finding me incomprehensible?!
[/edit]


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:13 PM   #60
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Sorry, I was referring to this comment of yours:

Quote:
What I am proposing HAS to be organised fairly well is the releasing of NEW mods built from OJP source code.

I guess this should require some kind of request e-mail, along with the description of the mod etc.
But anyway - let's just decide what permissions are needed first. Once we know that, then we get a bit more nitty-gritty and decide exactly how they should work...
In response to that, I think people should have to e-mail us simply telling us they are using the source code in their mod, so that we can keep track of it. Well, it wouldn't necessarily have to be required, but it would be a benefit to both parties if they did.

Another great thing about building mods on OJP, is that you could have levels built with new code and entities that will run on any mod built off OJP, which I hope to be almost all. One of the cool things about the code setup in the original Jedi Knight, was that you could add any kind of code you wanted, on a per-level basis. Q3 lacks this, and OJP could help as a remedy.


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:21 PM   #61
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OK - I think were communicating now

Quote:
Another great thing about building mods on OJP, is that you could have levels built with new code and entities that will run on any mod built off OJP, which I hope to be almost all.
Yes - this is a GREAT plus to having the OJP in place - totally agree.

Quote:
In response to that, I think people should have to e-mail us simply telling us they are using the source code in their mod, so that we can keep track of it. Well, it wouldn't necessarily have to be required, but it would be a benefit to both parties if they did.
Yes, this is the right way to think of it.

If we can keep track of the mods which are using OJP source, then if we see two mods which are 99% similar we can just say 'Hey guys - it looks like your mods are going to be practically the same - might you consider joining forces?' It may turn out that there were more differences than we realised - or they may indeed join forces. Whatever. At least we can TRY and organise things so that overly-similar mods don't get made - because that doesn't help anybody. Not the mod makers, or the end users - the players.

Ok -so do we agree that - ideally - all mod makers who want to use OJP source in their new mod need to touch base with the OJP admins - so we can organise things? That's all I'm saying...


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:27 PM   #62
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Sounds good.

Only reason I can see that someone wouldn't want to use OJP is the view that it's bloated, and would have large VMs. But this isn't going to affect actual speed, only load times perhaps. At least noticably. Only truely anal coders like ASk will have a problem.


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:35 PM   #63
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Actually, my idea I was thinking about would be to possibly have a couple of different versions.
I don't really like that idea. It seems like it'd be best to just keep everything in one version. As long as any beyond-patch gameplay changing aspects are done outside of BG code, we can easily make them Cvar options... i think that'd be the best way to go.
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Old 09-27-2003, 06:36 PM   #64
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Yes - the OJP code itself is going to get quite large!

People making new mods from the OJP source code are free to 'strip out' whatever they don't need though I guess. At least I don't see why this is a problem.

...and as long as all the OJP additions have been clearly marked with nice clear, searchable comments, it should be as painless as possible to do this - ideally as least...


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:44 PM   #65
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I don't really like that idea. It seems like it'd be best to just keep everything in one version. As long as any beyond-patch gameplay changing aspects are done outside of BG code, we can easily make them Cvar options... i think that'd be the best way to go.
Well - partly, this depends on what people see as the scope of the OJP.

Seems that some people just see it strictly for bug fixes and improvements which don't affect basic gameplay.

However, I saw it as more encompasing than that. For example, I am ready to add an LMS (Last Man Standing) system to the OJP. But this - of course - DOES affect basic gameplay...

First of all, is this kind of work (e.g. LMS) welcome to be added to the OJP?

Second - assuming it is - do we release the OJP absolutely chock-full of cvars? To me - that seems like a total mess. I dont' agree with that. Pro players - for one - would NEVER play it - because they would never know what type of game they were playing when they joined an OJP server - they would rather not have the bug fixes - no matter how good - and just stick with the base game.

So splitting it up into at least 2 types of mods allows us to take on any and all 'improvements' without turning the released OJP mod into a cvar nightmare!


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:46 PM   #66
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I don't like the multiple version idea, either. Just have internal and external releases. Internal is very frequent, external leaves out the minor revisions so people don't have to update so damn much.

Gameplay changes through cvars would give end users a little more incentive to run the mod. But restrict them to balance issues, nothing major. Through this, OJP could patch any gameplay issues that Raven doesn't or cannot get (like if LEC pulls the plug), and, hopefully, become an unofficial patch, and at the same time support all sorts of new user made levels. (Competitive players wouldn't bother with this mod, as they almost always like everything vanilla, but I personally think that kind of strict competitive play sucks anyways).

I have a lot of faith in this project. I think that if it goes the way we want, it could be the sole factor in determining the long term condition of JA.


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:49 PM   #67
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ROP, I see your problem with the cvars, but I believe multiple mods is a bigger problem. It's confusing, they're not compatible, just... I don't like it. We aren't going to be making six hundred changes here, so it won't be a huge mess.


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:54 PM   #68
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Emon,

Can you please just double-check you've read my last post thouroughly.

I'm not talking about different versions as in v1.0, v1.1, v2.0.

I'm talking about two different 'builds' of the OJP.

One which is limited to only bug-fixes and non-gameplay changing improvements. (Sounds like this is what your most interested in)

...and another build which could have all the other additions (e.g. LMS, extra force levels, jetpacks etc. etc.)

...unless were not intending the second kind of additions to be allowed in the OJP at all. In which case I think that's a bit limiting. And actually going against the whole 'open source' concept you've been speaking so strongly for...


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Old 09-27-2003, 06:57 PM   #69
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ROP, I see your problem with the cvars, but I believe multiple mods is a bigger problem. It's confusing, they're not compatible, just... I don't like it. We aren't going to be making six hundred changes here, so it won't be a huge mess.
I believe the opposite.

I think it's FAR worse to have one mod chock-full of cvars, than having two builds.

Either that, or we have to think about limiting the amount - and the SCOPE of the features we can have in the OJP - which I don't think is very appealing, and goes against the idea of 'open source'...


And it's not just the literal amount of changes, it's also the SCOPE of the changes.

You seem to be under the impression no-one was going to add features which changed basic gameplay.

However, I was already planning to do so. (LMS)

If you do accept the LMS code, and you add a cvar for it, then say goodbye to the so-called 'professional' JKII players who just want to play the game as it is - no massive gameplay changes from base should be even possible.

If you still accept the LMS code, but don't include it in the final mod - what was the point of me contributing it in the first place?

If you don't accept the LMS code - then you limit the whole idea of the OJP. It would still work, and it would be fairly good - but why not allow all changes and make 2 builds?

Could you explain exactly how 2 builds will cause such confusion?! Seems pretty simple, clear and effective to me...

but again - it's majority rules here - so whatever everybody else thinks...


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:08 PM   #70
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Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Emon,

Can you please just double-check you've read my last post thouroughly.

I'm not talking about different versions as in v1.0, v1.1, v2.0.

I'm talking about two different 'builds' of the OJP.

One which is limited to only bug-fixes and non-gameplay changing improvements. (Sounds like this is what your most interested in)

...and another build which could have all the other additions (e.g. LMS, extra force levels, jetpacks etc. etc.)

...unless were not intending the second kind of additions to be allowed in the OJP at all. In which case I think that's a bit limiting. And actually going against the whole 'open source' concept you've been speaking so strongly for...
1. I know what you mean, I know you mean different builds, and I still disagree.

2. Things like LMS, jetpacks, and whatever aren't what OJP is for, that's for the mods built on OJP. OJP is for things like new entities, bug fixes, new collision detection, maybe like new and fixed AI, and maybe very small gameplay changes to fix balance issues, making it an unofficial patch. Speaking of patches, that could be used as a guideline for what should go in. If Raven wouldn't add it in a patch, maybe it shouldn't be in OJP. Patches rarely severely alter gameplay or add new elements to gameplay, only fix them, which, as I have followed, the limit to gameplay changes for months now.

3. It's limiting, sort of, because it goes beyond the scope of OJP. We want, or at least I want it to help developers to make their own gameplay changes, not let them use ones we've created. If we go by your idea, we'll start to see some lookalike mods. And how does this go against open source? Open source just means the source code is freely available to anyone, in a nutshell.

4. "Chock-full of cvars"... As stated above, we'd only be making minor changes, there would be no more than like a dozen new cvars. I don't see that as "chock-full".

And limiting what goes into OJP is, as stated above, not against open source. This is primarily a mod for developers, not end users. Rather, it is for developers directly, end users are affected indirectly.


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:15 PM   #71
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Ok - I see what your saying.

Basically, I've seen the OJP slightly differently than you have.

Yes, if we are limiting the OJP to non-gameplay changing features, then fair enough. We don't need two builds - I agree.

However, I'll be a bit disappointed if this is the case. I saw the OJP being a little bit more ecnompasing than that.

...but if this is the case, then so be it...

I think we can do what you want to do AND MORE with the 2 build concept. And I don't see it as confusing - at all infact! But whatever everybody else thinks...


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:19 PM   #72
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Alright, i can see your point about having different builds, Renegade, rather than all the options... i didn't think about some of those things. But let's just limit it to two, eh? One for enhancements alone and another of additions and the enhancements. So when there's a new update that's an enhancement, it'll be implimented into both builds.
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Old 09-27-2003, 07:21 PM   #73
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Hey, I understand what you mean. But think about it. If we make all those changes, there's no real point in having other mods, and we're going to see a lot of copycats.

Take for example various C/C++ libraries. LibXML only loads and parses XML stuff for you, it doesn't interface with your code. LibJPG will load JPEGs for you, but it won't start drawing them on cubes for you in OpenGL. Every project's got to have some sort of boundaries, for OJP, it's gameplay changes.


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:24 PM   #74
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Alright, i can see your point about having different builds, rather than options... i didn't think about some of those things. But let's just limit it to two, eh? One for enhancements alone and another of additions and the enhancements. So when there's a new update that's an enhancement, it'll be implimented into both builds.
This is EXACTLY what I am proposing. Just 2 builds - that's fine.

All the stuff in the 'enhancement' mod would also be fully included in the 'additions' mod - exactly.

In this sense, they are compatible mods.

The ONLY reason for the two builds is because your more serious JKII gamer wants to know what he's playing when he joins a server...


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:31 PM   #75
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Hey, I understand what you mean. But think about it. If we make all those changes, there's no real point in having other mods, and we're going to see a lot of copycats.
Not nessesarily true Emon. Not all mods will nessesarily just blanketly use all the features from the OJP. And this was the whole point of the copy-cat clause we've been talking about for a while.

I, for one - know that the mod I would plan to make from the OJP would not just casually copy ovver all the features. In fact, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want half of them! My mod is about Movie Realism - so a lot of it wouldn't be applicable (one small example - RGB sabers - I wouldn't want them - I would only want colours seen in the movies).

If you read my first post, I used two case examples to illustrate how I saw it working.

Your analogies between libraries and the OJP only work if you consider the OJP actually as a library. It doesn't nessesarily have to be JUST that...


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:35 PM   #76
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It still violates the idea that OJP is a mod directly for developers, not for players. What you are proposing is the opposite. What I am proposing is what Razorace and I originally thought up many months ago.

But, I have an idea. If you want to do a gameplay mod, perhaps some of the members of the team would be interested in collaborating an OJP based gameplay mod, which would be an entirely different entity. It's just that OJP itself was never designed directly for the players, and I think it should stay that way.


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:44 PM   #77
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Yeah - I understand I may have a different idea than was originally planned. And sorry if I'm rocking the boat a bit dude
THat's why I made my first post in this thread so long - to make sure I wasn't getting the idea of the OJP wrong...
...I'm guessing you didn't read it!

Quote:
But, I have an idea. If you want to do a gameplay mod, perhaps some of the members of the team would be interested in collaborating an OJP based gameplay mod, which would be an entirely different entity. It's just that OJP itself was never designed directly for the players, and I think it should stay that way.
Well - ermm - ok. Do you mean a whole different repository, admins etc.?

...do you think that's a better solution than a few preprocessor defines?!

My idea of the OJP is still to help share developing resources. Why have 3 different developers work on similar gameplay 'additions', when it can just be put into the OJP by one, and then used by all?

Mine isn't a totally different concept to yours!! Mine just isn't limited to non-gameplay changing features - that's all.

But anyway - sounds like it's essentially end of discussion for you. THat's not what you had in mind, so that's not what's happenning. If so - ermm - fair enough I guess...!


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:54 PM   #78
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Woah, lots of activity here.

I'm just going to weigh in before heading off to work. I'll be home in about 5 and 1/2 hours.

I'm voting for the 2 build system:

Basic - (Emon's) Does game side modifications ONLY. There will be no gameplay modifications in this build. It will ONLY bug fixes, map entity additions,etc.

Medicorran Enhanced - (Phunk's) Alters both game and cgame code. Also allows good gameplay additions.

To keep things under control, we should NOT cvar everything. Instead we need to just tag every major feature with comment tags to allow people to add/remove major features at will. Whither these things are "on" by default will be up to the moderators.

This means that functions will have to duplicated for the major function rewrites.

In addition, I propose that we do NOT put any per person comment tags in the code. Instead, we'll do it on a per feature basis and then list all the credits in the credits file. That way we wouldn't have person tags up the ass when multiple people end up working on a single feature.


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Old 09-27-2003, 07:59 PM   #79
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BTW, the gameplay code sharing was part of my original OJP concept. I never mention to imply that gameplay changes were outside the scope of the project. I was simply minimizing the concept to make it clear that we only want the good gameplay additions.

Anyway, the two builds will be handled on the same repository. They will just be in seperate directories. The what's new? files will probably be seperate and the credits/rule handbook/readme files should be shared.

Off to work!

end of line.


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Old 09-27-2003, 08:05 PM   #80
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You run a high risk of having one big ugly codebase, if you just have everybody's stuff thrown in to one big soup.

I'm really not sure what Emon thinks that the mod might be - if you want a set library of things that mod devs use to make a mod - we'll have that when the SDK comes out.

You'll find that people agree and disagree on what should or shouldn't be in a mod - the key concept of OJP (imho) is that if we all do LMS (for example), we should collaborate and make the most possible stable set of code for it - an OJP LMS module.

I think that the gameplay altering sources should be in separate files, with the best possible guide to plugging the code in to the SDK source (or perhaps a core OJP codebase), that way you won't have your gameplay changed unless you opted for it.

I know that I'm very afraid of writing a mod too similar to other OJP mods, but I'm pretty certain that it is not. I can benefit from OJP though, if it's done right.

Let's decide on how it's going to work.


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