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Old 09-27-2003, 08:08 PM   #81
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Wudan,

Your right - we need to think about how - practicaly - it will work. But it can work - I'm sure of that.

I think the first obstacle is just deciding what were actually trying to achieve first! It seems to me we haven't actually decided that yet!

Once we DO decide that, then we can start talking about how we practically approach it. Many of the suggestions you've made sound sensible - for certain cases...


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Old 09-27-2003, 08:23 PM   #82
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Well then, Razorace, you did a pretty poor job of explaining it to me in those two pages in the other thread, because I have been convinced that it's a mod for developers mostly.

If you've programmed in C++, you've probably used the STL, Standard Template Library, and you know how incredibly easy and powerful it is, and how much time it saves when programming. I think OJP should be similar to this. Let's fix bugs, make new entities, fix up the AI or vehicles, things which don't alter gameplay, but provide a good base for other developers. You all want to stop lookalike mods, but if you start putting gameplay changes in a mod that's labeled as a base for other developers, guess what, people are going to leave them in there, and mods are going to start looking the same! That's why if you leave out all but the basic balacing fixes, you can leave up originality and creativity up to people who use OJP in their mods, which reduces lookalike mods.

Also, most players aren't going to freely accept the mod if it's going to start seriously mucking with their gameplay. A lot of people like vanilla versions of their games. With my idea, OJP would keep that intact on many servers, but allow for much more advanced levels to be created.

Do you guys understand what I'm saying?


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Old 09-27-2003, 08:29 PM   #83
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I think we need to be in a chat to discuss this. Since we're all here as it is, come to #OJP on GamesNET.


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Old 09-27-2003, 09:33 PM   #84
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I don't know why we disagreed, but after some chatting, ROP and I seem to have come to an agreement and understanding on what we think OJP should be. I think was partly confused, and just looking at it the wrong way.

I think I can sum it up by describing the two distributions of OJP.

1. The first distribution would be a barebones, streamlined mod for developers and players. For developers, it would include all the bugfixes, AI enhancements, and anything else that mappers could use in their levels. The only gameplay modifications would be balance fixes and bugs, things that everyone would agree on. Not everyone would want jetpacks or mouse sabering, we can leave that to the second distribution.

Think of this one as a stable base for both mappers and players, but modders could use it too, especially if their mod has nothing to do with what's described in distribution 2. What was really cool about the original JK was that you could have new maps that had totally new code, and could be played with any mod. In most cases, it was something basic in concept, like a new type of elevator, a trap of some sort, etc. You can't really do that in JO without a mod, which means you can't be playing other mods while playing the level. With OJP, we can code for the mappers (on demand of what's needed in the community), we can add versatile, modular and flexible systems that fit any mapper's needs.

This lets you play really sweet maps with still a (basically) vanilla game. No major gameplay modifications, just fixes and better maps.

2. This distribution is designed for more serious changes. It's a superset of distribution 1, it includes all it has, and more. Again, every new feature has to be really versatile and adaptable. Examples could be, say, a dual wield weapon system, mouse sabering, LMS, a player class system, etc. You'd still keep most if it basic, no shockingly specific gameplay alterations, just good features that a lot of modders would want, and can adapt them to their own stuff. And because it's a superset of the first distribution, you can still run all the maps.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but cool features in maps is really important to me. JO kind of limited you on this, and although JA is better because of scripting, it is not perfect. It's probably because I spent so many years in the original JK, I came to really love and understand the potential maps can have. With OJP and all mods based on it, you can have a map with all kinds of cool stuff that works in any mod.

As far as copy cat mods, I'm not really worried any more. Again, I remembered back to the original JK, and everything was open source, because code and hardly anything else was stored in other than ASCII. But it was never a problem! Rarely was work stolen, and if it was, it was just taken down by request of the author. I think the main reason for copy cat mods in JO is that everyone was too busy trying to fix the bugs and the balance issues, and trying to create what they thought JO should have been. The first distribution fixes that on the most basic level. No more bugs, no more balance issues, just vanilla gameplay. The second one doesn't cause the copy cat issues I thought it might earlier, because if the fundamental issues are solved, people are going to start working on the more important stuff.


So, what do you guys think? Are we all clear on this?


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Old 09-27-2003, 09:42 PM   #85
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Sounds great Emon.
That covers it all.

Now if we are agreed on the purpose of OJP, we can move on to practicalities.

btw - I have applied to ChrisC3P0 for seperate forums and webspace for the OJP project.
He did say it sounded like a good idea, but didn't confirm anything. I'm hoping to hear from him soon.

I think seperate forums especially will be great! Trying to continue all this stuff in one thread is a real ball-ache!!


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Old 09-27-2003, 09:52 PM   #86
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That's great, ROP. Try to get us a private forum, too.

We can host our source code at a place like Freerepository or Asynchrony, but I think having our forums and web space right here with the community is not only convenient, but functions as an ad, too.

Which brings me to my next point, advertisement. It's going to be a while before everyone accepts the mod and it becomes widespread. I think if we can get big mods like the DF mod and AotCTC to use OJP, the words "Built on OJP!" or whatever would give us a lot of publicity. I'll talk to the rest of the DF mod team, and see what they have to say. I'm pretty sure they'll agree, especially because they need the AI. Also, any code they develop could be a great boon to us, and consequently the rest of the community.

Another great example for my map thing is co-op or other gameplay modes. We can code those in, and it would make it really easy for people to make co-op or whatever kind of gametype maps. I can't imagine the popularity we would get from co-op, you've got no idea how many people want something like that! Especially if we go recreate the ents from SP, like verbatum, hopefully it could be possible to boot up most all SP maps into MP and play them. I already tried, and it actually ran, but was just missing entities.

Edit: I'll start working on a page layout and the graphics for it, more on that tonight.


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Old 09-27-2003, 10:04 PM   #87
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The possibility of co-op is indeed very sexy!

And yes - I think we need to get as much of the modding community on board as possible. At the end of the day, the more this is standard across the board, the more it benefits everybody.


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Old 09-28-2003, 12:21 AM   #88
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Oh, and in addition to the forum idea where current tasks and whatever are listed, we have to make sure our CVS host supports checking in and out of files, so that only one person can edit a file at a time. For added safety. I think this is a standard thing, but we should check anyway.


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Old 09-28-2003, 02:26 AM   #89
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Question, on the plan you guys came up with (which sounds just like I suggested) would Distro 1 be BG or G only? I know a lot of people want game only mods to make it easy for people to join the game. If Distro 1 is to appeal to tourny players, it needs to be game only.

I know some of my stuff (the updated animation system) requires BG modifications.

Secondly, the whole point of CVS is to prevent a checking in/out system. We want to maximize the number of people that can modify the code at the same time. With CVS, the only issue will be that you sometimes have to manually handle conflicts if someone commits something while you were doing your modifications.


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Old 09-28-2003, 02:36 AM   #90
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BG? You mean client game modification? Yes, it would require that, but I don't care about the competitive community. Quite frankly, most of the competitive community sucks in my opinion, and they're never going to use a mod unless it's entirely perfect to their exact specifications, and is designed for exploits and tricks, something which I find stupid.


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Old 09-28-2003, 03:17 AM   #91
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Suggestions for coding guidelines:

- All code should be as isolated from the normal code as possible. I suggest seperate functions whenever that's approprate.

If you have to alter a large portion of an existing function to make things work, make sure you leave an original untouched copy of the function (commented out of course).

- I suggest html style tags to indicate when changes are started/ended. Example:
Code:
//[AS2.0]
//code goes here.
//[/AS2.0]
Features should use analogies. Bug fixes and code improvements can probably just use something like "[Bug Fix #]" and [Code Improv #]. We can leave the explainations of Bug Fixes and such in the project documents.

- Try to document your code as much as possible.


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Old 09-28-2003, 03:31 AM   #92
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Good idea.

You can also be extra fancy and do this:

Code:
/***************
 *  New feature A  *
 ***************/


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:34 AM   #93
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Preliminary site layout from 1:30 AM, I think the comments emphasize my fatique...


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Old 09-28-2003, 06:08 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
Good idea.

You can also be extra fancy and do this:

Code:
/***************
 *  New feature A  *
 ***************/
Well, we don't want to make it too complicated because some of the more complex features take a LOT of on/off tags to work. The key is to have something that is easy to ctl+F for.


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Old 09-28-2003, 09:14 AM   #95
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About check in's and out's

I think whatever CVS we end up using should have some kind of check-in / check-out system. (If it doesn't have that, it won't be a very good one...!)

That doesn't mean only one person can modify a file at a time. If the CVS is good, it should allow 'multiple' check-outs - which means more than one person can have any one file checked out at the same time.

This gives the CVS extra information (person A checked out the file before person B etc.) it needs to do a LOT of the merging duties automatically. We will still need to do some manual merging in particular cases, but hopefully this should be reduced to a minimum if the CVS is good....

So, if at all possible, I'd make that one of our criteria for whatever CVS we go for - the capacity for multiple check-outs...

As a second priority, it would be handy if the CVS gave us the control to say file A can be checked out multiple times, but file B CANNOT. This can make merging easier if conflicts in particular files end up being particularly nasty.

One example in MFC programming of this we've found at work is we never let the resources.h and .rc files be multiple checked-out. Because there are bound to be conflicts, and trying to merge changes back together in those buggers is a REAL kick in the ballsack!


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Old 09-28-2003, 09:39 AM   #96
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I didn't know that CVS has a checkout system option or that it makes a difference for the merging process. :| Oh well, I'm still new at this CVS thingy anyway.


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Old 09-28-2003, 10:43 AM   #97
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Hmm...

Well, looks like the term 'multiple-checkouts' is a MicroShaft specific term.
(I mainly use Visual SourceSafe)

In CVS, the equivalent is basically an unlocked system which merges in changes the best it can.

...but since people don't have to 'mark' when they start altering a particular file in the unlocked system, I don't think the auto merge function will be able to get it right as much as the 'multiple check-out' system I'm used to does.

...the end result being we'll have to do a bit more manual merging than I'm used to.

Plus there is no record of who is working on what file! (Is that correct? That gives me shudders!!)

But, looks like this is how it is for online, free CVS - so, oh well!

Looks like it has to be a totally unlocked system then!

...gives me the creeps a bit. (It's fairly different to how I'm used to working), but what the hey!


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Old 09-28-2003, 10:55 AM   #98
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Yeah, we're going to have to experiment with the system a bit to figure it out.

I'm mainly worried if the commit function does a update scan before attempting to commit. Otherwise, we could have accidents where recent revisions are reverted when someone doesn't update before commiting.


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Old 09-28-2003, 11:03 AM   #99
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I would CERTAINLY hope it does! Or we could end up in SERIOUS s**t!

To me, it seems like going about things backwards anyway.

Surely it would be easier to make the user at least mark when they start working on a file. (And at the point of marking, your forced to get the latest version of that file from the repository).
That way it wouldn't need to do a scan to determine if they have updated when they should have done - it knows if any other changes have happenned on that file independantly in the mean time and can force a merge...

but oh well. We have to work with what we have avaliable...

Yeah - we defineltly need to do some tests...


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Old 09-28-2003, 11:56 AM   #100
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If we do these tests, and we find that it's fairly easy to start writing over other people's changes accidently, I think we may have to consider restricting it to (single) checkout's.

...either that, or discover a new, better - but still free and online - system.

I know, I know - it would end up being a REAL pain in the rectum. We tried to keep it to single (locked) check-out's at work initially - but it turned out to be too much hassle. And we were only 4 of 5 guys who were all sitting in the same room!

Were potentially talking about many more people scattered all over the globe!!

(But remember, at work, we had the alternative of the multiple-checkout system - which is NOT exactly the same as totally unlocked, it's quite different in many important ways...)


But what's worse? Causing people extra hassle when they have to wait to check out a file, or leaving open the possibility of having work totally erased from the respository if people forget to do updates when they should? (And with the number of people potentially working on this - I think it's VERY safe to assume that's going to happen at least ONCE...)

But anyway - we do need to do these tests and see what the deal is. But if there is ANY doubt - I think we HAVE to consider (single) checkouts - i.e. locking the respository...


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Old 09-28-2003, 12:09 PM   #101
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Also consider this:

With a locked checkout system, individual users don't nessesarily HAVE to wait till that file is checked back in...

You could just go ahead and adjust that file locally anyway - even if it is checked out. Just make sure you mark each of your changes well.

Then - when the other user checks back in the file you need, you make sure the file you were working on is backed up somewhere.
Then you check out the file you need, which means getting the latest file from the repository with all the other users changes.

Then you merge it manually your end - finding all your changes in your backed up file and putting them into the latest file from the repository.

OK - it's more hassle. But at least the repository is SAFE.

...put it this way, I'd personally rather go though the kind of hassle mentioned above than have a potentially unsafe repository...


I know we haven't done the tests yet! But I'm just getting down all the possibilities just in case the tests expose problems with a totally unlocked system...


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Old 09-28-2003, 12:13 PM   #102
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Feh. It's going to require COORDINATION. Which is why I say the bulk of your functions should be in external files, for instance, if I made a new file for g_ code, I'd call it g_wu_whatever.c - and I'd have some step by step code pastes for hooking it up to the main codebase. It's the least ugly way to go about it.

Every other way, checking, single code-base, etc - they just seem too problematic and klunky. I just want to code.


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Old 09-28-2003, 12:16 PM   #103
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Wudan,

I totally agree - external files...
...WHERE possible!

But many alterations can't be nice and neatly bundled up in seperate files.

I certainly see very little of the changes meant for Distribution 1 being able to be kept to seperate files.
Maybe more in Dist. 2 could be neatly packaged up in sep. files, but I seriously doubt ALL will...!

If the change requires all sorts of little code changes all over the place, you can't put them in seperate files!

So we need some kind of CVS system. I don't think this is in doubt. THe CVS system is meant to give you the co-ordination you mention - that is it's whole point!

And it obviously works! No big, complex open source project COULD work if CVS didn't!!


Were only talking about the specific details of the setup of the CVS system here...

Safety of the central resository vs. the convinience of the end user.
Personally, I think the safety of the respoitory should get top priority...


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Old 09-28-2003, 01:11 PM   #104
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Wudan, doesn't your idea make it a pain in the ass to put stuff back together? What exactly is wrong with just adding to the regular code, as long as it's neat and well documented?

ROP, what exactly do multiple checkouts do? Because I'm not quite getting it. How do you have two people checking out one file, and still get the new code from each person when you merge it? Wouldn't one overwrite the other?


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Old 09-28-2003, 02:32 PM   #105
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Multiple checkouts (in Visual SourceSafe) are 'similar' to an unlocked repository, except you still have the concept of checking out.

Checking out a file doesn't stop other people checking out that same file, but it means:

a. When you check out, you get the latest file from the repository. THis means that the system knows at what point you started altering the file, and what state it was in when it gave it to you.

b. When you check the file back in, the system has an exact record of who changed what and when inbetween. So it doesn't need to scan the file your checking in to make sure you have any alterations you should have. It KNOWS straight away whether you need to do a merge - because it knows when you checked out, and if anybody else has checked out AND in since then.

At this point it would attempt to do an automatic merge. As long as their are no conflicts, it can handle all this automatically. You only have to start manually merging stuff in if there are conflicts - but this doesnt' actually happen as often as you might think...


It's probably best not to think of multiple checkouts as checking in and out as you know it (i.e. totally locking out other users) - it's more a system of marking when alterations are made by different users -combined with automatic code merging.

It's an unlocked system in the strictist sense, but it's a very safe and organised unlocked system.
I know it works - I've used it pretty much every day for the past 5 years!!

But anyway - this is probably irrelavent anyway. Sounds like the CVS system were using doesn't have this 'marking' concept - at least not to the same extent (and SourceSafe obviously isn't free!) - so we have to make do.

And who knows - maybe this system CAN accurately work out when things need merging and make sure someone can't just overwrite stuff. We can find this out through some fairly simple tests

If this is the case - all is good...


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:10 PM   #106
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Oh, that's cool. I think Subversion is adding that in future verisons, they are aiming at replacing CVS.


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:25 PM   #107
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Subversion looks cool.

I don't think it does anything like the 'multiple' checkout stuff I've been talking about (at least I couldn't see anything like that in the description - current or planned...)

But it looks like it's an overall improvment on CVS in some areas...

I think I've had it lucky using SourceSafe! Seems the free, online stuff is either fully open or fully locked down - no real inbetween...


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:34 PM   #108
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You think SourceSafe is pretty good eh? I've heard horror stories about it, and I've heard it's one of the few things Microsoft has gotten right. Oh well.

CVS should be fine. We're only a mod team, I don't think we need much more.


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:41 PM   #109
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Well - don't get me wrong - it has it's problems. Things can start to get unglued when you start branching stuff AS WELL as multiple check-outs! lol - but that's just asking for trouble anyway!

At the end of the day, we've had very little trouble with it at our place.
Were certainly not worried about work being over-written in the repository - AND were not restricted to single check-outs...

Yeah - CVS will do the job. But if we think it might be likely that we could over-write stuff accidently, I think we should just bite the bullet and lock the repository down. With no 'inbetween' to choose, I think that's the best alternative.

...that's just my opinion though.

...and we still need to get it set up and do the tests first anyway...


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Old 09-28-2003, 04:51 PM   #110
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Correct. I'll look into Asynchrony today. There are some other places similar to SourceForge, but I don't believe they will approve of our project, as they are all true open source. Asynchrony hosts closed source projects, infact there is no approval, it's instant.


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Old 09-28-2003, 05:41 PM   #111
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What's the news on our hosting? I'll have the page done today.

If, for some reason, JK.net cannot host us, Kedri at Massassi made it quite clear last I talked to him that he would be fine with us being hosted over there.


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Old 09-28-2003, 05:56 PM   #112
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I'm still waiting for a reply from ChrisC3P0.

I've just sent an update request message to him...


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Old 09-28-2003, 07:28 PM   #113
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I have a repository with CVS (as in the cvshome.org version) @ freepository.com set up. It just needs to be tested now.


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Old 09-29-2003, 03:23 AM   #114
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Say, here's a idea. Why not make a universe cvar list while we're messing with stuff? A simple cvar.txt in the documents folder would do the trick. You could simply add descriptions/cvars when you discovered what they do.


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Old 09-29-2003, 03:42 AM   #115
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sorry... i've been out of the loop here for some time, but this project sounds like it has a lot going for it. I'd like to assist if possible.

It seems to me that if you're going to create an "Open Jedi Project" then it should actually be open, in line with the concepts of Open Source. If it's not really open then it's probably a good idea to call it something else. Additionally it would be necessary to give consideration to the Raven/LA license. However, as wudan mentioned, definitely requires management of the changes, but the changes would be subject to approval, etc.

I'm sure you already know this, but with regard to CVS, it's quite a radical change of concepts from VSS. I've been a VSS user/admin for quite a while now, and we're moving to CVS in our organization. The idea is that you don't actually check out files like in VSS... a "check out" in CVS is akin to a Get in VSS, which can be a bit confusing. The merge happens after you work on the file locally.

But getting back to the concepts of the project, it sounds like it's going to be a great asset to the mod community.


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Old 09-29-2003, 04:40 AM   #116
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Well, I got bad news. After checking out the freepository.com system some more, I don't think it's going to be what we need. Getting direct CVS access in Windows is INSANE. You'd have to install a CYGWIN shell and crap and that is too goddamn complicated. In addition, the webpage system is far too primative to be useable.

I'd say our best hope lies with sourceforge since their system can be easily accessed with WinCVS (as far as I know). I know I've seen a JK2 mod on the site so I don't think we'll have a problem getting it there.

Or, we could try getting someone to manually host a CVS server for our purposes.


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Old 09-29-2003, 09:33 AM   #117
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I've got a message back from ChrisC3P0.

He says he can give us hosting. He can't set up the forums until the website is up and running. (That's the policy).

So - Emon - you may want to get in touch with Chris directly to sort out the website. Just send him a quick PM I guess.


recombinant,

oooo. Someone who has used a 'normal' CVS system AND VSS. Cool. Maybe you know of a free CVS system appropiate for what were trying to do which has some kind of 'multiple check-out' system - or something equivalent...
(btw - Did my explination of multi checkouts make sense?)

About the 'totally' open thing - well - again, I'll go with the majority. Maybe it's even just a case of not calling them 'rules' as much as 'guidelines' - or whatever.


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Old 09-29-2003, 09:58 AM   #118
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Bingo! 'normal' CVS does a check to make sure that you don't accidently revert someone else's revision if you haven't updated before committing. I believe that commit will not work (gives an error) if your code isn't 100% up-to-date with the CVS repository.

http://www.cvshome.org/docs/manual/c..._10.html#SEC83

Unfortunately, you need direct access to teh CVS system for this to work (since the program has to store a lot of data locally to do this) and freepository.com's method for direct access is too complicated for our purposes. Hell, I'm not even willing to do it. It involves installing a unix shell and crap. Not worth it.

We need a repository where we can use winCVS or something that's easy. Since it sounds like we're going to 100% open access, security isn't much of an issue.


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Old 09-29-2003, 10:23 AM   #119
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AHA!

Yes - 'unreserved' checkouts sounds like the CVS equivelent of the 'multiple' checkout concept I'm used to.
And it looks like it's (reasonably) safe. I'd still be wise to do quick tests, but at least the concept is there...

Phew! That's a relief!

OK - so now we just need to find a system that isn't a total nightmare to work with...?


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Old 09-29-2003, 10:34 AM   #120
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See, I was pretty sure that was the situation. The book I was using was written in tutorial form so it was like impossible to just flip thru and find specific information on the commit system. The 4:00am tired didn't help either.

Anyway, I'm hoping that sourceforge will accept us. I'm pretty sure WinCVS works with it.


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