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Old 09-29-2003, 11:10 AM   #121
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Yeap - sorry Razor, you were right - it was just a difference of terminology...

Reserved and unreserved (CVS)

as opposed to

single and multiple (VSS).

It'd be nice, recombinant, if you could confirm that for us - since you seem to be familiar with both systems. BUt certainly looks like it to me from the stuff Razor has just linked to...


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Old 09-29-2003, 12:43 PM   #122
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mmm starting to sound good mmm

RECOMBINANT!!! Where've you been?


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Old 09-29-2003, 06:04 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Anyway, I'm hoping that sourceforge will accept us. I'm pretty sure WinCVS works with it.
Yes... for Windows systems it seems that WinCVS is sort of the standard, and Sourceforge's system evidently works well with WinCVS. It's definitely not a trivial setup, however, and it can be a challenge. I'm still working on it.

Honestly, I've only had a little experience with CVS so far, and I'm not the CVS admin at work. However, there are a few people here I can use as resources, since they've used CVS, specifically with Windows as a client.

I'm very familiar with multiple checkouts in VSS, and it's a similar concept to CVS - basically more than one person checks out a file and VSS attempts to merge when you're done. If it can't figure it out, you get the esteemed privilege of doing the merge manually.

But CVS basically lets you work all you want - there is no real checkout per se like VSS ("Hey, I'm working on this file and you can't have it until I'm done!"), but that's the whole different mindset behind CVS. VSS' multiple checkout system is the closest analog.

Sorry I couldn't be more help at this point... if I find out more I'll let you know.



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Old 09-29-2003, 06:09 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wudan
RECOMBINANT!!! Where've you been?
Oh, I've been lurking about.... lots of stuff going on and I had to drop some extracurricular activities to maintain my sanity.

BTW, we released the software product I've been working on since last year (remember my month-long disappearance back in March???).

...and of course we're now working on version 1.01.


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Old 09-29-2003, 06:11 PM   #125
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OK - thanks Recom.

Well - from what I've read, I think the ideal set-up in the CVS system would be 'unreserved' check-outs.

I guess we just need to give it a thorough testing and see how robust it is. It sounds like it should do the job...
at least if it does what it says on the tin


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Old 09-29-2003, 07:05 PM   #126
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I'm still betting that we have to do some lean mean manual merging before the sun sets on this project.


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Old 09-29-2003, 07:15 PM   #127
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This is a bit offtopic but, on JK2 section of PCGM, there was a OJP zip. The guy had a fit, Sergio/Eldritch changed it to Saber Hilt Pack. The zip is still called "ojp.zip."
Once agian, sorry for off topic.


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Old 09-29-2003, 07:28 PM   #128
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The components that will be in both distros will probably have to be manually merged (partially) once distro 2 changes significantly from distro 1.

But, hey, it's better than doing everything manually.


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Old 09-29-2003, 07:39 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire Jedi
This is a bit offtopic but, on JK2 section of PCGM, there was a OJP zip. The guy had a fit, Sergio/Eldritch changed it to Saber Hilt Pack. The zip is still called "ojp.zip."
Once agian, sorry for off topic.
Thanks for the update. We already knew about the name stealling but I didn't know about this new file until now. I'm still talking to the admins about it.


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Old 09-29-2003, 07:42 PM   #130
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...well...

There are two ways to approach the two distributions.

btw - can we give the two distributions / builds different names? 1 and 2 don't really tell you much. I'd suggest:

Dist. 1 = OJP Base
Dist. 2 = OJP Plus

...or whatever. Someone can probably come up with better names...

Anyway - you can either keep the two distributions totally seperately. That means your eventually going to have to merge Dist. 1 (OJP Base) into Dist. 2 (OJP Plus) whenever we need to do a new release. Could be a bit of hassle.

The alternative is to put ALL changes into the same code base - but wrap up all OJP Plus stuff in a preprocessor #define. Something like:

#ifdef _OJPPlus

/* OJP Plus feature */

#endif

[edit]
NOTE: This is how extra debug code is handled. It's wrapped up in _DEBUG preprocessor defines...
[/edit]

Then, all you have to do is set up two pretty much identical projects in VC++. One with the OJPPlus define, and the other without. No big merges needed.

[edit]
Again, this is pretty much how debug and release work. The release build does not include the _DEBUG preprocessor define
[/edit]

We can ask individual contributors to wrap their features themselves, but some will probably miss it - so I think the admins would need to check each new feature and do this if it's been missed. I'm quite willing to do this myself. This won't be that hard as long as you can check the history and see exactly where the differences are (Personally, I'd find this less hassle than doing a massive merge each release time)
And at the end of the day - we really should be checking each feature anyway - for many other reasons too...

I also see this as a safer method...

Two different respositories and merging could still work. But I see the preprocessor define way as neater, and also less overall hassle...


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Old 09-29-2003, 08:05 PM   #131
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I don't know. I think two seperate code branches would be easier in the long run. I imagine the plus version will have a LOT more code in it than the basic version. Forcing people to do a crapload of ifdefines around all their plus work would be a big hassle. Having to merge stuff semi-manually (you can merge branches into the "main" project with some automation) would be a lot less work overall.

I suggest we simply make the basic version a branch of the primary code trunk (the plus version). That way we can add whatever we want to the basic code and then easily merge that data into the plus version.

As for actual binary releases, we could just release them seperately or as a package. A package deal would probably be best to avoid jedimod/jedimod++ confusion.


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Old 09-29-2003, 08:08 PM   #132
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In addition, I suggest we only use MSN messenger for realtime communication. Idling in a IRC channel waiting for people is too much of a hassle.

My MSN messenger address is razorace@hotmail.com. Feel free to contact me if you need something.


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Old 09-29-2003, 08:18 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace We need a repository where we can use winCVS or something that's easy. Since it sounds like we're going to 100% open access, security isn't much of an issue.
I'll look into my sources. Bwahah!

I'll finish the website today. The page on there now was an old test, I seem to be in a paradox of finding the perfect method for rendering the page on all browsers, so I said screw it, I'll just use tables or something. CSS layers can bite me.

ROP, when I put together the site, I'll think of good names for the distros.

Razorace, either MSN, ICQ or AIM, whichever most people have. I say not MSN because MSN is supposedly going to not let third party IM clients work with their protocol anymore, and there's no way I'm using theirs. I still think IRC is better, it's especially great when we all have to talk at once. We can use IM for just one on one, but for a team meeting, IRC is a must.


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Old 09-29-2003, 08:35 PM   #134
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Yeah- I say use ICQ...


About how we manage the two builds, well - I'm not overly fussed at the end of the day.

I would have thought that we would really need to double-check all the features going into the OJP anyway - between us. In that case, the #define way wouldn't really be much extra hassle. You'd get pretty used to adding the #defines quite quickly I reakon...

(Again - I may be assuming too much about the CVS system. In VSS, it's very easy to quickly scan through and see ALL the differences between new code and the old code. In fact, standard procedure is to peer-check someone else's code before they can add it. We could still check aded stuff - only we'd have to do it after it's been added. But that's better than nothing...)


If were NOT checking each addition - well - then I guess the branching method overall WOULD be better.

...but even with the two branches, it's possible that someone may put a feature in OJP Base, when it should be in OJP Plus- or vice versa. If were not checking each feature, we could easiely miss that.
But then I guess you just deal wth it at the time.

Ok - well - either way will work. I'm happy enough to go with branching...


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Old 09-29-2003, 09:29 PM   #135
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I'm suggesting MSN because it supports multiperson conversations easily and quickly. As for the third party blocking, I think M$ gave it up. My copy of trillian runs MSN perfectly.

CVS does allow for diff checking. I was simply suggesting a branched system as I know that the process for merging code from the branch to the main is at least partially automated. I'm not so sure that would work for completely seperate modules.


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Old 09-29-2003, 09:35 PM   #136
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I still would prefer IRC, and I think some others here would, too. Especially since you can just use an applet on the site and not bother with any client.


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Old 09-29-2003, 09:36 PM   #137
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ICQ supports 3 or more way conversation doesn't it?

Anyway - I'm not too fussed - although I prefer ICQ, but I'm easy.


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Old 09-29-2003, 09:58 PM   #138
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An IRC channel would be way cool...


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Old 09-29-2003, 10:36 PM   #139
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ICQ supports multi recipents but A) that doesn't work as well as a real conversation chat and B) doesn't work in Trillian.

I don't like IRC because there's no way to tell if someone is online or not with idle whoring all the major channels

Sides, if you're too lazy to install MSN or trillian, you're probably too lazy to install WinCVS, and therefore too lazy for the project.


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Old 09-30-2003, 12:37 AM   #140
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WHOIS reveals idle time on Holonet. But really, it's not going to be that important. If he's idle, he's not talking now is he?

I was fooling around with some graphics, and I got the following. The black box is where the ad would have gone.

http://emon.geekvision.net/OJP/template.html

Mozilla = Great.
Opera = Great.
IE = TOTALLY ****ED UP! It can't render PNGs with transparency, WTF


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Old 09-30-2003, 01:42 AM   #141
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Idle time or not. I don't want to have to have an addition window open just to idle until there's someone to talk to. Plus, this constant virus/portscanning crap when I connect to the network is pissing me off.

I use IE and I seem to see everything, it's just that none of the buttons are pressable yet.


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Old 09-30-2003, 01:48 AM   #142
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The banner isn't ugly and white?


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Old 09-30-2003, 02:39 AM   #143
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It's white but it looks pretty good as is. Now if only the buttons worked....


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Old 09-30-2003, 12:37 PM   #144
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I'm casting a vote for IRC.


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Old 09-30-2003, 01:00 PM   #145
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Well - looks like IRC is the fav.

Although I agree with Razor - I think it's a pain in the arse it doesn't automatically detect when someone is idle and give you some kind of an audio alert when someone joins or becomes active again.

I easiely find myself stepping away from IRC for a sec - getting distracted - and then suddenly remembering I'm idling in the room - check, and find I've missed loads of the conversation.

...so to avoid missing anything, I have to keep bringing the IRC window to the front again and again and again and again and again.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

...but oh well. I can deal with it...
*sulks*


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Old 09-30-2003, 06:17 PM   #146
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Well, tuff, I'm not going to idle in some channel all day so you guys don't have to install trillian or MSN. If you want do the IRC thing, that's fine, but I'm sticking with the IM services. :P


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Old 09-30-2003, 06:49 PM   #147
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Um, ROP, I can think of two solutions for that.

1. Scroll up.
2. Look in your log file.

...yeah...


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Old 09-30-2003, 06:56 PM   #148
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Emon,

Depending on how long I've been away, that's a LOT of catch up, which wouldn't be nessesary in other chat programs.

...I just think other chat programs are far more practical - and just make more sense.

...did the maker of IRC not know how to trigger a sound?!

Anyway - whatever. I think it'd be hilarious to have agreed this much and then not be able to agree on a friggin' chat program!

...so in the interests of sanity (namely mine), I'll leave it up to the rest of you! I'll use whatever...


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Old 09-30-2003, 09:13 PM   #149
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Um, how is that different from catching up in an IM client? If you're doing 1 on 1, then obviously they are waiting for a response, same in IRC... If you are doing a chat on MSN, then what, you can wait for the person to get back? You can do that in IRC, too. Just ask the person. I don't understand what is so hard about that...

And most IRC clients let you do sound triggering for all sorts of events.


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Old 09-30-2003, 09:26 PM   #150
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A. If noone is around, you don't have to have a freakin' window open all the time.
B. It has a consistent user online alerting. You don't have to worry about the person changing nicks and so on.


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Old 10-01-2003, 01:09 AM   #151
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A. I can understand this, but I also don't understand why you can't minimize it to the task bar like most IM clients.

B. You mean changing nicks to indicate that you are away? Who cares? Not only is that not a big deal to change your nick, or even use the proper away mode, but it's not an important feature. Who cares if MSN gives you a little window that says "lol dude I r teh away!!!11"


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Old 10-01-2003, 01:41 AM   #152
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Quote:
A. I can understand this, but I also don't understand why you can't minimize it to the task bar like most IM clients.
Cause you gotta watch the window to see if someone is there. :P

Quote:
B. You mean changing nicks to indicate that you are away? Who cares? Not only is that not a big deal to change your nick, or even use the proper away mode, but it's not an important feature. Who cares if MSN gives you a little window that says "lol dude I r teh away!!!11"
No, I meant when people come online. IRC doesn't handle that very well at all. There's no "user is online" stuff in vanilla IRC.

Plus, I don't like the fact that logging into IRC automatically makes my firewall work overtime to block all the script kiddies.

You can do IRC all you want if that's your thing. However, I'm not going to waste time or taskbar space trying to watch the channel and do my thing at the same time. Sides, you guys are rarely there when I'm awake, so it's just going to be a major thorn in my side.


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Old 10-01-2003, 01:48 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by razorace
Cause you gotta watch the window to see if someone is there. :P



No, I meant when people come online. IRC doesn't handle that very well at all. There's no "user is online" stuff in vanilla IRC.

Plus, I don't like the fact that logging into IRC automatically makes my firewall work overtime to block all the script kiddies.

You can do IRC all you want if that's your thing. However, I'm not going to waste time or taskbar space trying to watch the channel and do my thing at the same time. Sides, you guys are rarely there when I'm awake, so it's just going to be a major thorn in my side.
1. Most IRC clients can be setup to beep or have their icon flash when there's activity.

2. But what's the point of the user online stuff?

3. My point is that IRC is far more efficient and easier for group meetings and discussions, it was never created for one on one communication.


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Old 10-01-2003, 05:22 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
[B]1. Most IRC clients can be setup to beep or have their icon flash when there's activity.
Most but not all. Trillian's IRC function is VERY inconsistant. Plus, it flashes for log ins, log outs, when you're idling and when people are just talking about crap.

Quote:
2. But what's the point of the user online stuff?
So you know when certain individuals come online. I don't want to be bugged by window flashing whenever guest@java.com enters the channel or when a net split occurs, I just want to talk to people on the project instead of having to check the window 50 zillion times when people are whining about how JKA MP sucks.

Quote:
3. My point is that IRC is far more efficient and easier for group meetings and discussions, it was never created for one on one communication.
Have you even tried MSN messenger? Its group conversation option covers the exact same base as an IRC chat and it's much less of a hassle to use than idling. And you can simply close the freakin' window (without lossing the ability for other people to know you're online) when you're not interested in the current conversation.


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Old 10-01-2003, 07:20 AM   #155
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Well, maybe when you guys stop arguing about the rules - or lack of rules - and the method of communication, you can start the project! I'd be interested to see what you guys got in store!

Sorry for posting, as I doubt I have the coding abilities to actually contribute, but it seems there is a lot of bickering on little stuff - I mean it's good to come to agreements on the project plans and all, but imagine how many lines of code you could have made instead of the essays y'all have put into this thread?

Just a third-party observation. I mean no flame, I consider you guys to be respectable, knowledgeable forum dwellers here - and that's a rare thing indeed. So just a thought.


I don't like quake, never liked quake, and don't like Star Wars quake. So basically jk2mp.exe never gets used on my computer.

Shaving is not a high priority with Jedi. Would you want to shave with a lightsaber?
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Old 10-01-2003, 07:54 AM   #156
razorace
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Well, we're still waiting on sourceforge for a repository and Raven for the qvm code. We're basically stuck in the water until then. That's why we're talking about this stuff heavily now so we don't have to worry about it later.


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Old 10-01-2003, 08:42 AM   #157
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Deciding what the rules for the OJP are - or whether we need rules in the first place - needs to be done. And it needs to be conclusive enough for everyone to agree on. So I don't see a problem with getting a bit 'involved' with that.

But - hehe - this chat program stuff is quite funny! Whenever I wonder if certain aspects of my personality are too stubborn - I only need to visit this thread to put it in perspective!

Anyway - I wasn't acutally aware you could set up audio alerts in IRC - that would improve matters for me at least. So I'll look into that...


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Old 10-01-2003, 10:27 AM   #158
razorace
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:P So sue me. I'm sick of idling in IRC channels.

Anyway, I've found the first bug fix for JKA (outside of Raven of course). pwn3d!! I'll post about it tomorrow...after some sleep.

Basically, I found out what was wrong with backward walk animations for several of the different saber stances. It's a easy txt file fix.


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Old 10-01-2003, 12:23 PM   #159
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Well, when coordinating on a coding project, IRC is very cool.

A) I don't feel the necessity to keep responding, like with an IM client - I can just hop in the channel and answer questions - if you're not there, and perhaps you're somebody I NEED to talk to, I'll find you on one of the IM programs I have laying around.

B) idle? not idle? I'm supposed to be coding, not chatting away the hours with a bunch of guys who have nothing better to do than argue about a preffered chat medium. EVEN IF I found one of you guys online, getting you to stop whining and join a conversationg would just be too much work - I just want to code, people, let me code! GIVE ME THE CODE!

C) Sadly, I don't think constantly conversing with the other OJP contributors is a very necessary thing - WHILE coding - maybe when I've finished a set of functions and I want to pop in and show you guys what I wrote, then I'd be interested.

D) If you can't tell, I'm frothing at the mouth to begin coding. I want to code, NOW.


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I made a silly little program called Dragon, which is an animation tool for the GLA format, used in Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy and Krakatoa.
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Old 10-01-2003, 02:12 PM   #160
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yeah... you'd better wipe your chin. it's a little unsightly with all that drool...



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