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Old 10-01-2003, 01:42 PM   #41
vegietto
 
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hey man i agree he may be a fully god then why does he let people get killed or little children starve to death and about the bible how does trumpets knock down walls huh




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Old 10-01-2003, 01:53 PM   #42
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i mean i know that god has a plan for us but starving people is his plan well that really bites i mean how could u let people starve like that huh
Thats tough to explain, im not sure why that happens. Could be anything...

Quote:
hey man i agree he may be a fully god then why does he let people get killed or little children starve to death and about the bible how does trumpets knock down walls huh
Thats possible for sound waves to break objects, like glass. If we didnt die, then theres no point in needing God, we wouldnt need anything.
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Old 10-01-2003, 01:55 PM   #43
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why is it tough it should be easy he is mean he doesn't like them so he maked them starve.I know that we will die but why starve them that is madness it is pure evil to do i mean ok in war or a murde ok but stavation that is stupid and i know sounds waves carry but they can't be that strong. But for real god is terrible to starve people




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Old 10-01-2003, 02:26 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by vegietto
i mean i know that god has a plan for us but starving people is his plan well that really bites i mean how could u let people starve like that huh
I think that that is a good, meaningful question, however I think that if there were a God, and it was like the one Christians worship, it would probably asks the same one 'how could you [humans/my followers] let so many people starve'. The lesson here is that you can't expect someone or something else to solve all of your problems, you have to try your hardest. If you believe in God, understand that he will not help you in this life, he is only an icon and a reson for you to spur yourself.

For the handful of 'miracles' when a devout person prayed to God and was cured from cancer, or whatever the case may be, there are an overwhelming flood of cases where the devout prayed to God and their loved one died. God gives us a reason to be good people, but we cannot expect him to do everything for us, we have to do things on our own. Prayer is a good way of practicing humility and it is also a good way to develop optimisim, a healthy thing to have in any situation =)


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Old 10-01-2003, 05:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Nothing is impossible, with God...
Which is precisely the reason why a god, as a boundless concept, is disregarded by many intellectuals. A god invalidates the laws of physics and makes life pointless.

On the other hand, being godless makes life worth living. There are boundaries that the universe follows and the knowledge I discover can be passed on to my children to be expanded upon, revised, and used to enhance humanity.

But I don't disregard the lessons of christianity, because our ancestors, in spite of their probably misguided beliefs, used the mythology that surrounds many christian stories, such as the flood, Daniel and the lions' den, David and Goliath, etc., to teach and pass on wisdom. The essence of the wisdom in christianity (along with most of the world's other religions) has value.

I just think it's time for humanity to "grow up" and shed its past mythos, much like a 10 year-old comes to terms with Santa Claus.


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Old 10-01-2003, 07:42 PM   #46
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Daniel and the lions' den, David and Goliath

Why cant they be possible? Im mostly talking about David and Goliath, David and the lion's den is possible, it would just be unlikely that he would come out alive... but who knows? Now with david and goliath, thats very possible. It even give goliaths hieght.
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Old 10-01-2003, 08:57 PM   #47
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Sorry about the double post, but i had to leave school right in the middle of my post...

anyways, back on track, its possible that a boy... around 14-16 years old could kill a guy who was about 9 ft, 3 inches (i think) many people just say 10, but the bible says 9 and something. anyways, goliath underestimated david. Remember david got 5 (i think) stones that were smooth from the river. He had already killed a few animals in his time to protect sheep (remember, he was a shepard) The bible says he was strong and handsome. His skin was dark (so you could tell he spent a lot of time outdoors, which is probably how he built up his strength) So, goliath underestimated david, started taunting, and david shot a rock at goliath with his sling. If a rock hit you full force right between your eyes (or probably anywhere on your head) you would be knocked out. Or at least out for a few minutes, enough time for david to kill goliath with goliath's own sword. Then when goliath was dead, the israelites rushed in, and defeated the philistines (I know goliath was from Gath, i think gath was part of the philistines land)

Also, its possible, that the people liked david more than saul (there king) and saul became jealous. And you prolly know the rest... its too long, and i dont want to type that much.

Quote:
The lesson here is that you can't expect someone or something else to solve all of your problems, you have to try your hardest. If you believe in God, understand that he will not help you in this life, he is only an icon and a reson for you to spur yourself.

For the handful of 'miracles' when a devout person prayed to God and was cured from cancer, or whatever the case may be, there are an overwhelming flood of cases where the devout prayed to God and their loved one died. God gives us a reason to be good people, but we cannot expect him to do everything for us, we have to do things on our own. Prayer is a good way of practicing humility and it is also a good way to develop optimisim, a healthy thing to have in any situation =)
I believe that everything happens for a specific reason. Now it could be more than one reason, or it could just be one. The reason it happens might (and probably) wont be clear at that time.

For example, lets look at war, its not a good, thing, but in the end, it can result in something good. (im not saying its good)
Example:

The war in iraq, was bad at the time, but now, the iraqies have freedom, more than before at least... Of course, this is perspective, it obviously doesnt benifit suddam, or his sons, or and of the government leaders.

God can turn something bad, into something good.

Of course, if you believe the revelation, my view is, that every single thing that happens is to prepare the world for that, if you remove just on war, half the world could be different...
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Old 10-02-2003, 12:52 AM   #48
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I believe that everything happens for a specific reason. Now it could be more than one reason, or it could just be one. The reason it happens might (and probably) wont be clear at that time.
I wasn't arguing with that point of view, I was simply suggesting that we can't expect God to fix our problems, and we can't sit passively and assume that whatever is happening is happening because it'sa part of the plan. We have to improve ourselves and do the best that we can, and have faith that good will come of our efforts. Whether that faith is placed in humanity or in God is up to the people who have it.

Personally, I prefer to belive that man has accomplished the good he has on his own (or her own, as the case may be ) and that we don't need a deity to do good for us. Conversley I prefer to believe that our weaknesses are our own, and do not belong to some sort of Devil. I don't mean to say that religion has to be a crutch, just that many people seem to use it that way. I think if more people actually lived by religious precepts, the world would be a better place. The trouble is that many people use religion as a justification

Very few Christians, in my opinion, behave as Christ would have, even when they are trying to act Christian. In my (not so humble, but still limited ) opinion, Christ would have accepted other Religions if they spread the right message, and would have accepted all people (specifically gays...) so long as they lived a good life.

One of my Protestant Christian friends told me that you must believe that Jesus is the savior if you wish to go to heaven. This seems to be a common theme in Christianity, and I contend that if Jesus was as he is said to be, that wouldn't be the case. Gandhi would be able to go to heaven , people who have never heard of Jesus (and yes, they do indeed exist) would be able to go to heaven, good people would be able to go to heaven, regardless of who or what they believe in.


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Old 10-02-2003, 01:51 PM   #49
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OK - Part II of the 'Did Jesus Die On The Cross' post!

Before I move on to the 'sealed' tomb, I just want to side-track slightly and explain how I approach the 'gospels'.

Firstly, yes - in the gopels, it mentions in several places Jesus' prophecy that he would die and then arise on the third day. i.e. he could read the future.
...it also mentions him healing the sick, raising the dead (other than himself), walking on water, turning water to wine, feeding thousands from just a few fishes and loaves of bread etc. etc.

It also mentions other heavenly visitations (angels etc.)

Now - let me make it clear from the start -I don't believe these actually happenned. Or if there were events of note similar to these, they did not happen as stated in the gospels. Like any well-established 'myth', it will be a constant mix of truth and fiction and/or embelishment.

Yes I know, I'm a doubting heathen!

But there are two over-riding paradims which - as far as I am concerned - make it perfectly reasonable for me to NOT accept these various miracles just at face value as presented in the Bible.
I could explain both in detail, but the first one is more relavant, and will help to keep the length of my post down. (I know I can ramble a bit!)

...but to understand this paradim, you have to have the ability to 'step out' - even briefly - of your own belief system. In the cases of certain people who frequent these forums, I very much doubt this is possible, at least at this point in time.
(Please note - I'm not talking about ALL religious fundamentalists who post here - but I think it's fair to say MOST).

The paradim is this:
If I were to believe ANY text which had SOME kind of historical authenticity, AND mentioned divine occurances - I would quite literally have to believe in practically every single religion on this planet.
And then of course in this case, the amount of contradictions between the various belief systems would be unconcilable.

I know I'm going to get the usual "The Bible is more conclusive and has more historical backing than any other religious text ... blah blah blah".
Seriously - save that kind of talk for people who are easiely misled...


To illustrate my points a little better, I'm going to put a question specifically to you Rainer551.
I'm going to mention a bit of Mormon history again. I'm not trying to pick on the Mormon's specifically (I like to think I'm fairly universal in my attacks on religion ). I only use the Mormon's again because I know, Rainer, you do not believe in their faith - and also I happen to have quite a bit of information about them avaliable to me at the moment...

...anyway - the Mormon 'history' is CHOCK full of all kinds of heavenly visitations. From God and JC himself, (...Trinity?! ...what Trinity!! ) to all kinds of angelic visitations - not just to Joe Smith, but to groups of people and in at least a couple of cases - whole congregations numbering in the hundreads!!.
...in fact, practically everybody and his dog were seeing - and talking to - heavenly visitors in that part of the country at that time. (OK - that's an exagguration - I'm talking relative to this day and age).

So why don't you credit any of these visitations and miracles? This wouldn't be a case of...

Quote:
'damn[ing] the source based on the beliefs of the source'.
...would it?
(the above quote were your own words)

Until you've explain why you can dismiss all these instances of miraculous events, I don't feel particularly inclined or required to go any further into my explinations as to why I don't believe the instances mentioned in the Bible.

'Gospel' events have only 4 independant accounts. The 'events' of the early Mormon church were recorded by many, many people. All were believers of course - but what else do you expect!! My point is there were a hell of a lot more accounts than 4...

New testament events happenned 2000 years ago. The start of the Mormon church is only just over 150 years ago.

So why can you dismiss all this and yet accept the Bible - without bieng FORCED to take into account you personal approval / disapproval of the eventual belief system?! I'd be VERY interested in hearing your reply...
(I doubt I'll even get anything like a sensible answer from a lot of the other 'christians' on this forum - they'll undoubtedly miss the point I'm trying to make, and just start a mindless Mormon-bashing session... )


Considering the kind of 'miracles' that are MEANT to have happenned in the New Testament, there are next to no alternate sources of evidence for them. The only source of evidence that actually mentions the events directly is solely the Bible. THat's it.

You can use other historical sources to back up the existance of a person called Jesus Christ.
And that many many people believed he came back from the dead. And believed in all the other 'miracles' he performed...

But the miraculous events 'themselves' have only the gospels to back them up...

I'll use one brief example to illustrate my point...

Quote:
Matt Ch.27:
-----------

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
OK- so there is a big earthquake and the temple was rent in twain at the time Jesus died. Any record of this from ANY alternate source?

Graves opened at that time (whatever that means). And then after the 'ressurection', people came out of their graves, went into the city and APPEARED TO MANY?
Any record of such a marvellous occurence ANYWHERE else in any other historical document from that time and area?! Or was this just a normal day for your average citizen of the holy land?!

'Oh look - their's dead people wandering around the city again!'

The fact there is not even a mention of this anywhere else - even anything 'out of the ordinary' - is surely something to make you sit up and think - 'eh?'
...it's also interesting that only the gospel of Matthew even mentions these grand events!



...and my goodness - for some of the most important events ever to take place in the history of mankind - they are shockingly short and lacking in detail!
Where did Jesus go after his ressurection (and after he appeared to a few people)?

He assended into heaven of course! ...only TWO of the gospels actually bother to mention this though...!

Matthew just ends with Jesus' words...

Quote:
Matt Ch.28:
-----------

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

John ends with a cryptic ending to rival any work of fiction...

Quote:
John Ch.21:
-----------

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Luke dedicates all of 10 words to the 'accension'.
As you can see, the assention apparently took place in Bethany.

Quote:
Luke Ch.24:
-----------

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

...

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
And 14 more from Mark.
This version doesn't actually say specifically where the accension happenned, but it mentions when Jesus 'appeared to the eleven'.

THis is also referenced in Luke, and in that account, that happens in Jerusalem...

Quote:
Mark Ch.16:
-----------

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart,

because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

...

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

Amen.
Notice that it doesn't say anything about them going anywhere before Jesus accended - so you would naturally assume he accended from Jeruselum - not Bethany as described in Luke!

Surely - by anybody's standards - that's precious little description of the last known earthly 'occurance' concerning Jesus!! At least the crucifixion had more vivid descriptions. Presise times of day, descriptions of the weather (sky darkening, earth rumbling etc)

Here - there is practically NO detail. In both cases it's just 'he went into heaven'.
And two of the gospels don't even bother to mention it at all...!


...sorry, I've babbled on again. And i haven't gotten onto the tomb!
Sorry, I'm gonna have to leave that till tomorrow - there is now going to have to be a part III!

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Old 10-02-2003, 04:14 PM   #50
XERXES
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Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
I agree with everything you've said SkinWalker, and very well put, but unfortunately it will do no good...

Since your forgetting SkinWalker - there is a perfectly legitimate, tangible proof of life-after-death, heaven and hell - the whole deal...

it's called...

[big dramatic music]

THE BIBLE!

Yes sir, with this one book you can prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT the existance of all this - and more.
Not only this, but it renders all other contradictory proofs from any other sources INVALID!
Yes, you heard right folks - absolutely invalid.

Ever wondered whether it's right to stone your neighbour to death?
Are you puzzled as to why members of all those religions with the funny names and strange head-pieces deserve to go to hell?

All these answers and more are in this book.
Isn't it a marvel!!

...and yours for only $5 from any good bookstore.
Buy one today!

(No scientific background required.
Pictures are optional.)


...sorry, I won't post in this thread again. Just felt like a bit of Friday humour!
edit: I hate how people attack what they dont understand.


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Old 10-02-2003, 10:46 PM   #51
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heh - that's funny.

'cos I hate it when people use the word 'understand' when they should use the word 'believe'...

...drives me nuts!!

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Old 10-02-2003, 11:54 PM   #52
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Concerning Part I
Really nice, for this I even consulted a Greek Professor for assistance in looking at the verses you quoted, and he even gave you merits for looking at it intelligibly. In fact, the Swoon Theory as it's called is "very ingenious" as far as J. N. D. Anderson is concerned. He says however, "But it won't stand up to investigation."

Quote:
What makes me think the tomb was visited 'several' times...?
Notice in the scripture that you quoted it also says, "...which came with him from Galilee...". After having the Greek Professor look at it he said that the "followed after" was really more of a "followed with". It wasn't to imply a different time but just to imply that they followed him. So really the only "visit" was with the body's actual placement in the tomb.

Quote:
Basically, people were free to walk to and from the tomb as they pleased.
Quote:
Matt. 27:66 So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
They were definately NOT free to walk to and from the tomb. By Roman law if anyone broke this seal by moving the stone they would have been put to death.

Quote:
THe above line is repeated nearly identically in Matthew and Mark. I have chosen to quote the Luke reference, however, because in this version, the centurion interestingly states 'certainly this was a righteous man'. If the centurion did believe this, it is natural to assume the centurion would not have believed he deserved to be killed.
It is funny that you would quote Luke because in Matthew he says, "Surely he was the Son of God!" which to me would be more persuasive than saying a righteous man, but still your point stands.

Quote:
John 19
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
Quote:
E. Le Camus
To prove it the better, the centurion pierced Him with his lance, and the corpse made no motion. From the wound caem forth a mixture of water and of blood, which revealed a rapid decomposition of the vital elements. Bleeding, they say, is fatal in syncope. Here it has not killed Him Who is already dead. For the circumstanes in which it occurred to prove that Jesus had ceased to live some memoments before. And it does not occur to the most intelligent of His enemies, such as the chief priests, to cast a doubt on the reality of His death. All that they fear is fraud on the part of the disciples, who may remove the body, but not on the part of Jesus Whom they have seen expire.
Says it all ^_^
Quote:
If it's in doubt whether pilate called to the same centurion which said Jesus was a 'righteous' man, take into consideration that just a few verses earlier, the believing centurion was also refered to as 'THE centurion', and there are no other centurions mentioned. I think it's very safe to conclude it was indeed the same centurion.
Yes that is very interesting that is says the centurion. Even so the fact that when pierced blood and water came forth should be evidence enough to prove his death.

Quote:
Pilate had at least doubts as to whether Jesus was actually dead. (He hadn't actually spent that long on the cross - only several hours. The gospels differ as to the exact amount of time, but certainly no longer than half a day. Some people survived crucificion for DAYS before finally dying. THat was the point - it was a VERY slow, painful, terrible death)
The point was not a slow, painful, and terrible death. The point was humiliation-your being hung naked in front of many people as they mock and laugh at you.

Quote:
E. Le Camus
Jesus, before His crucifixion, had already suffered much, both in body and soul. He had passed through the anticipation of His death in Gethsemane. He had undergone the frightful pain of a Roman scourging, which left deep scars on the back of the sufferer, and which is almost equivalent to capital punishment. Then they had pierced His hands and feet with nails. The small amount of strength which he might still have had left had been worn away by the six hours of frightful suffering which he had already passed through. Consumed with thirst and completely exhausted, He had at last breathed out His soul in that last cry recorded by the evangelists. Again, a Roman soldier had pierced His heart with a spear. With no food or drink, with no one to dress His wounds or alleviate His suffering in any way, He had passed a whole day and two nights in the cave which He was laid. And yet, on the morning of the third day behold Him reappearing, active and radiant!
My question is after all that what are the chances of him being alive? Of course he died more quickly than most people who were sentenced to crucifixion.

Quote:
The next verse does refer to Jesus' body being wound in linen with the spices. I guess it's natural to assume the spices refered to are the ones Nicodemus bought - but no-where does it say these are 'traditionally' used when preparing the dead.
Quote:
John 19
39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.
40 Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
The fact of it is, these were embalming spices. Why would he bring embalming spices to heal someone-if he wasn't dead.

Quote:
Merrill C. Tenney
In preparing a body for burial according to Jewish custom, it was usually washed and straightened, and then bandaged tightly from the armpits to the ankles in strips of linen about a foot wide. Aromatic spices often of a gummy consistency, were placed between the wrappings or folds. They served partially as a preservative and partially as a cement to glue the cloth wrappings into a solid covering...
So what your telling me is, that after applying these herbs that somehow attended to his condition, he wrapped this half-living body according to Jewish customs(as mentioned above)? Or are we ignoring that part of scripture, or the fact that there were witnesses to these events other than for Nicodemus? I would also like to know exactly what you think the aloe and myrrh helped cure him of.

Concerning Part II

Quote:
If I were to believe ANY text which had SOME kind of historical authenticity, AND mentioned divine occurances - I would quite literally have to believe in practically every single religion on this planet.
The historical authenticity is greater than that of any other work of antiquity, and I thought I had made that clear earlier. If you want I can post a chart listing many other works of antiquity with the dates of their writing and the earliest copies we have for comparison, but I doubt that will be needed. So in any case, the bible has a lot more than SOME historical authenticity. And you have yet to list any historical anomalies that argue the bible's historical authenticity.

Quote:
I know I'm going to get the usual "The Bible is more conclusive and has more historical backing than any other religious text ... blah blah blah".
Seriously - save that kind of talk for people who are easiely mislead...
I would love to hear your reasoning on why you think the historical authenticity of a document is only for the easily misled.

Quote:
Until you've explain why you can dismiss all these instances of miraculous events, I don't feel particularly inclined or required to go any further into my explinations as to why I don't believe the instances mentioned in the Bible.
Although I see the point your making, I don't feel particularly inclined or required to refute Morman beliefs in a forum designated to discuss Christianity. Not only would it be off topic but you are very obviously dodging my question. What do you think Jesus believed about himself, your explaination for Jesus' Miracles, and what of the remarkable fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecies?

Quote:
You can use other historical sources to back up the existance of a person called Jesus Christ.
And that many many people believed he came back from the dead. And believed in all the other 'miracles' he performed...
Quote:
Testimonium Flavianum (Josephus)
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly...
The Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus is probably better used to prove the existence of Jesus rather than his Miracles, but I wanted to make note that he said Jesus was one "who wrought surprising feats".

As far as historical backings for his Miracles I will have to get back to you on that. And I don't really see your point on saying that the Gospels had little information concerning his accension, because I would agree, they didn't say much. As far as the controversy over the location of his accension, I will again get back to you on that.

On another note however there are still some things that are left unfinished in previous posts.

Quote:
When Mary Magdalen saw the empty tomb and ran to tell about it, no one believed her except Peter who didn't really believe himself until he saw the empty tomb. If they had been nursing Jesus back to health for the past three days then why would Jesus' absence from the tomb be such a surprise to the disciples?
Quote:
Out of curiosity could you tell me one of these historical anomalies?
Also you have yet to reveal to me the evidence that you were going to gather concerning the alteration of the Gospels. I don't have much time to post with school and all, so I wont be able to comment as much as I'd like.


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Old 10-03-2003, 02:04 AM   #53
CloseTheBlastDo
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Rainer551,

Before I retort, I must commend you with the most dignified and gratious reply from anybody I have been 'debating' yet on these forums. Especially concerning christianity.
Even though I was getting rather vicious at times, you have stood your ground without venom. In that sense, you have certainly bettered me.

For that - I congratulate and admire you.
Even though I do plan a full rebuttle of your points, I am going to be careful to try and extend to you the same curtosey that you have entended me.

Quote:
After having the Greek Professor look at it he said that the "followed after" was really more of a "followed with". It wasn't to imply a different time but just to imply that they followed him. So really the only "visit" was with the body's actual placement in the tomb.
I'm sorry -I just don't buy that at all.
...read the verses again...

Quote:
Luke 23:
--------
53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Notice two things. First, the fact that verse 53 implies Joseph prepared the body ALONE (no-one is mentioned helping him - it said HE wrapped it in linen)

Verse 54 says the DAY of preperation passed.

THEN it says in 55 that the women from Galiee 'followed after'...

Maybe the women of Galilee just walked really slowly from the cross or something - 'cos actually they turned up AFTER the day of preperation!

And more on this point of Joseph preparing the body ALONE:

Quote:
Matthew 28:
-----------
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
It says Mary Magdalene and the 'other' Mary (Mother of Jesus) were 'around', but again, it sounds like Jospeh alone prepared the body.

Quote:
Mark 15:
--------
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was

hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.
Again - both Mary's only witnessed that finally prepared body. It was only Joseph who actually prepared it - and it doesn't say whether either or both Mary's were watching during.
..and PLEASE note the TOTAL lack of reference to ANY guards or other authority figures in ANY of these verses!!

...I will leave the appropiate verses from John till later. (That's when it starts to get REALLY interesting!)

Quote:
They were definately NOT free to walk to and fro from the tomb. By roman law if anyone broke this seal by moving the stone they would have been put to death.
If you are talking about sometime during the second day and onwards - then you would be right.

BUT - please read back a few verses from Matt 27:66.

You will see that the seal was only set AFTER the 'day of preperation'.
During that day of preperation, there is no mention of ANY checks or watch.
THAT is why the pharisees were so eager - as soon as they realised the situation - to GET guards there and SEAL the tomb. Because they realised it would be VERY easy to take the body out and away from the tomb is someone wanted to.
If this was NOT the case, why were they so worried in the first place?

...of course the pharasiees were only worried about a 'dead' body disappearing. THey didn't even consider the other possibilities...

Quote:
blood and water
It was definelty water and not some other clear liquid which would simply appear like water? (THere are lots of liquids flowing around the human body). Did John verify it was water in same way?! Of course - the gospels aren't anywhere near detailed enough to say for sure.
Even if he had - how would he have verified this?

And this still ignores Pilate's doubt over whether Jesus was actually dead. (The actual word used is 'marvelled'). If it was THIS obvious Jesus was dead, why would he 'marvel' at this?

Quote:
The point was not a slow, painful, and terrible death. The point was humiliation-your being hung naked in front of many people as they mock and laugh at you.
Humiliation was definelty part of it - for sure. But it was ALSO purposefully slow and painful. It was the worst possible execution method the Roman empire delt out. It warned anybody quite clearly what happenned if you disobeyed.
This is simply fact - and I'm surprised were even discussing this...

Quote:
My question is after all that what are the chances of him being alive? Of course he died more quickly than most people who were sentenced to crucifixion.
You want stories of people who have survived EXTREME torment and torture?! There are HUNDREADS upon HUNDREADS of them!

Many just as extreme and what Jesus went through. And many that I would actually consider worse...

Read indepth about ANY war. I would look some up for you, but I need to spare some time to keep answering you, continue my biblical analysis and look up evidence of gospel alterations!! So I'll have to leave that up to you to investigate...

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to demean what happenned to Jesus on that cross. I never want to have to go through ANYTHING like that in my life!
But to call it 'unsurviveable' - well - I call that the mother of all assumptions!

Quote:
40 Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
.....oooooooooooo. VERY interesting...
If you read the King James version, verse 40 has the section I have in bold TOTALLY OMMITED!!
Whichever version your reading, that section has been added.

I'd check with someone as to why that was added, and what reason they thought they had to add that section...

AND you need to double-check what the 'traditional burial customs' is referring to. IS IT referring to the fact you wrap the body up 'with spices', or is it referring to aloes and myrrh BEING TRADITIONAL SPICES USED FOR THAT PURPOSE.
There is a VERY important difference here. SO you need to be VERY sure what that last part of that verse actually means...

Quote:
So what your telling me is, that after applying these herbs that somehow attended to condition, he wrapped this half-living body according to Jewish customs(as mentioned above)? Or are we ignoring that part of scripture, or the fact that there were witnesses to these events other than for Nicodemus? I would also like to know exactly what you think the aloe and myrrh helped cure him of.
OK - this is it. Things are about to get REALLY interesting now!
Refresh your memory of the verses which describe Joseph preparing the body of Jesus.

Matthew, Mark and Luke ALL agree on this 'fact':

* Jospeh prepared the body.

Mark and Luke agree on these 'facts':

* Mary madgelene and Mary mother of Jesus were 'around' - but did not nessesarily view the preperation.
* It is specifically stated that they saw the 'prepared body'

OK - now let's see what John has to say...

Quote:
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Every time I read these few verses, it simply AMAZES me the amount of clues that are literally BURSTING out of them!!

Verse 37 is still describing Jesus' death.
Verse 38 describes Joseph asking for the body. It's interesting he's a SECRET follower of Christ, but still in line with the other gospels...

...but then Verse 39 hits us like a bombshell! Nicodemous! He visited Jesus BY NIGHT Why by night? To get a better view of whatever he was doing?! I think a far more logical conclusion is that he did not want to be seen doing whatever he was doing...
And again - this FULLY disputes the idea that there was anybody 'checking' who was coming to and from the body of Jesus. Or if there were, they were seriously incompetent...

Not only this - but John says that Nicodemous AND Jospeh prepared Jesus' body! And no mention of either Mary!

..huh? This isn't just a case of a slight difference between the gospels - this is practically a different story!!

One thing is for sure - get any idea out of your head that there was a big crowd around witnessing this preperation. It was conducted in a VERY low key fashion. ANd the gospels vary DRASTICALLY on what actually happenned - including who was there, and who did the preparing.

I would expect things like aloes and myrhh to be used in assisting a man back to health who has been bought to the very brink of death... Again - get rid of any idea that Jesus COULD NOT have been attended to. A whole night and SOME part of the next day went by before a watch was set on the tomb.

Also remember - I'm not saying the aloes and myrrh magically cured Jesus. WHat they could very well CLEARLY show, though, is the INTENT of Nicodemous to heal. Whether the aloes and myrrh actually did the trick, or combined with any other possiblities - I couldn't say...

As far as John saying that Jospeh and Nicodemous 'prepared the body'.

Yeah - sure they did.

And John was actually there - right?
Surely he didn't just take their word, or someone else's word for it...?

Quote:
The historical authenticity is greater than that of any other work of antiquity, and I thought I had made that clear earlier. If you want I can post a chart listing many other works of antiquity with the dates of their writing and the earliest copies we have for comparison, but I doubt that will be needed. So in any case, the bible has a lot more than SOME historical authenticity. And you have yet to list any historical anomalies that argue the bible's historical authenticity.
I'm interested in your definition 'historical authenticity'. Are you saying that the Bible has that much more historical backing than the Koran? Than the Gita?

...are you saying Mohammed did NOT write the Koran for example? Exactly how is the Koran not as historically backed? Please explain yourself...

Quote:
I would love to hear your reasoning on why you think the historical authenticity of a document is only for the easily misled.
No - with respect my exact words were:

Quote:
I know I'm going to get the usual "The Bible is more conclusive and has more historical backing than any other religious text ... blah blah blah".
Seriously - save that kind of talk for people who are easiely misled...
I'm not doubting the Bible has (SOME) historical authenticity. I'm SERIOUSLY doubting that it has SO much more historical authenticity than other religious works, that suddenly I should believe ALL of the 'miraculous' and 'out of the ordinary' things I read in one, and then ignore ALL the 'miraculous' and 'out of the ordinary' things I read in another...

THAT is how I am not easiely 'misled'...

Quote:
And I don't really see your point on saying that the Gospels had little information concerning his accension, because I would agree, they didn't say much. As far as the controversy over the location of his accension, I will again get back to you on that.
Lack of detail and inconsistencies have EVERYTHING to do with it...
...if <shock - horror> it didn't actually happen!

..any reports of a man flying up into the sky made independantly from any other source around that time and area?


Quote:
Also you have yet to reveal to me the evidence that you were going to gather concerning the alteration of the Gospels.
Sorry man - I've barely got time to reply to these points.
I'll get round to it when I can. I do want to back up my claims.

But please remember - like I said at the very beginning of Part I - these are not central to my beliefs. If you could prove without doubt they had not been altered ONCE from their original writing - well - I WOULD be a little bit surprised to be honest.

BUT - understand - all the important points I've made directly from gospel scripture would not be altered one iota.

...I only made the statement in the first place because I was tired of hearing any old Bible verse branded around for all kinds of unrelated discussions - and the words treated as infallible...

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Old 10-03-2003, 02:27 AM   #54
CloseTheBlastDo
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I forgot one part of your last post:

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Although I see the point your making, I don't feel particularly inclined or required to refute Morman beliefs in a forum designated to discuss Christianity. Not only would it be off topic but you are very obviously dodging my question. What do you think Jesus believed about himself, your explaination for Jesus' Miracles, and what of the remarkable fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecies?

Well - Mormons would claim to be Christians. But anyway - I understand your point, but I don't think you are giving full credit to mine.

You ask me a question: 'explaination for Jesus' Miracles'?

I ask you back a retorical question - 'explination for the 'miracles' recorded in early Mormon history? Explination for the thousands upon thousands of miracles recorded by any religion or denomination all over the world throughout any time in history you care to name...?


As far as what I think Jesus thought of himself?
It's a very interesting question.
Let me preface my answer by describing what I believe about him:

...I believe he was one of the greatest mortal men who ever lived. His beliefs were ahead of his time - and that got him into trouble.
I believe he was also one of the purist and 'greatest' men in a moral sense. But - combined with acute intelligence and charisma.

He was also involved in one of the greatest stories of mankind. The story of the man who apparently died and came back to life.

Did he think he was actually the Son of God? I don't believe he did in the early parts of his ministry. I think many of the 'sayings' of Jesus have been romantisised in the telling of them after the fact. The gospels were written decades after the events - this is undisputed by any quarter.

You ever tried to remember conversations of speaches made decades ago? Most people on these forums can't even try - their not even that old!!
Would you be sure you heard that speech at THIS time and at THAT place? ANd those EXACT words..?

i.e. would you be 100% sure when Jesus did actually start to call himself 'the Son of God...?'. Maybe you would almost assume he called himself that from the start -and credit him for saying certain things FAR earlier than he actually did...

Are you sure you would not embellish facts? Or just plain forget some?

...could you even recall what you heard directly - as opposed to what you heard from other people?!

But in any case - as events built up around him, belief in at least his semi-divinity may have grown. And if Jesus had any doubts up to his 'death' and 'ressurection', I'm sure he had little doubt afterwards. This was probably when the assertion REALLY gained momentum...

But Son of God, or no Son of God - he would have known he was still mortal - and perfectly killable (for good this time!) by the Romans...

...which meant a sharp exit out of Isreal. In fact he needed to get as far away from his home as possible...

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Old 10-03-2003, 04:33 AM   #55
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Humiliation was definelty part of it - for sure. But it was ALSO purposefully slow and painful. It was the worst possible execution method the Roman empire delt out. It warned anybody quite clearly what happenned if you disobeyed.
I don't quite agree here. The reason for the that is that roman crusifiction was different. One method was to nail a person. The second was to bind him to the cross. Remember all those pictures of Jesus hung with 2 criminals where he's nailed and they are bound. Remember Spartacus! The point here is that death through spiking is simplier. A person is probable to go unconscious because of the blood loss and die in sleep while the other would suffer the terrible death of hunger, thirst, and rot for around 3 days. In my opinion Jesus was spared in that way. He did not suffer much on the cross.
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Old 10-03-2003, 04:59 AM   #56
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Originally posted by CloseTheBlastDo
heh - that's funny.

'cos I hate it when people use the word 'understand' when they should use the word 'believe'...

...drives me nuts!!
can be used in both ways...somewhat. I just thought understand was more appropriate.

I looked at it this way...I dont believe in darwinism for example but that doesnt mean I hate it.

but then again...if I didnt understand darwinism...that wouldnt necessarily lead me to hating it either.

bah proved myself wrong. you get the idea though.


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Old 10-03-2003, 08:12 AM   #57
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I looked at it this way...I dont believe in darwinism for example but that doesnt mean I hate it.
That's just it XERXES. I don't hate the Bible - at all.

What I dislike (I don't think I ever used the word hate in relation to my feelings on the Bible btw...) is when people use and quote the Bible innaprropiately and inconsisently...

And use it as an exuse to remain ignorant to other sources of 'proof'.

Quote:
I don't quite agree here. The reason for the that is that roman crusifiction was different. One method was to nail a person. The second was to bind him to the cross. Remember all those pictures of Jesus hung with 2 criminals where he's nailed and they are bound. Remember Spartacus! The point here is that death through spiking is simplier. A person is probable to go unconscious because of the blood loss and die in sleep while the other would suffer the terrible death of hunger, thirst, and rot for around 3 days. In my opinion Jesus was spared in that way. He did not suffer much on the cross.
Yes - that's a very good point H.

..although I wouldn't go as far as to say he didn't 'suffer much on the cross.'
Maybe relatively speaking to other crucifixions though - sure. I accept that...
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Old 10-03-2003, 12:46 PM   #58
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I don't hate the Bible - at all.
i agree i don't hate the bible either i just don't believe some of the things in their i mean some i do but some of it is very hard to believe it, i mean it could have happened but i need proof. I find it hard to believe cause i still think some people did stretch the truth some, some told the truth but i think some didin't.




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Old 10-03-2003, 01:21 PM   #59
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i agree i don't hate the bible either i just don't believe some of the things in their i mean some i do but some of it is very hard to believe it, i mean it could have happened but i need proof. I find it hard to believe cause i still think some people did stretch the truth some, some told the truth but i think some didin't.
This is what I will always argue about. How can you desire justification for 1 of your beliefs, and not for others? If you find something easy to believe then why do you find something else hard to? Faith and knowledge are not similar things. Why it is always mixed?
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Old 10-03-2003, 01:23 PM   #60
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Remember this (hope it hasnt been said) but the 4 gospels were written by 4 different people, who saw different things, in 4 different perspectives. They wrote what they saw. So if they werent there for one event, how could they write about it? Plus, its not there to give a super detailed amazing description of of his life, but to give you the basic idea (how he was born, where, what happend, his baptism, his temptation, his teaching, his miracles, his persecution, his death, his resurrection) all fit into about 30-40 pages. It wasnt written to earn a special award, or to be a best seller, nor do i think the original authors had any clue at all, that you and me would be reading it today. It was written to tell people about christ, notice, mathew was for the jews, john for gentiles...etc. Who cares if they lack simple detail?


About christs pain, (sorry if this was posted) but anyways, he might have went unconsious on the cross, but theres more than that... before that (as you probably know) (i posted this in a thread i made like 4 months ago, but heres what i said):

1) He was beaten, not just a normal beating though. The men who beat him put on knuckled fists, the minimum ammount of men beating someone was six, so they beat him with knuckled fists! Imagine, being beaten by six or more men with knuckled fists! That would hurt a lot!

Mathew 26:67- Then the people there spat in Jesus's face and beat him with their fists. Others slapped him.

2) Then they whipped him. Just a normal whip hurts, but this was way worse, they put metal at the end of it. They whipped his back, shoulders, and legs. This kind of whipping caused blood to just pour down him. By the time they are done, the skin was just hanging off of him, and blood was pouring out. People could see his organs inside. Thats not what any paintings of him show carrying the cross huh?

Mathew 27:26- Then he set Barabbas free. But Jesus was beaten with whips and handed over to the soldiers to be crucified.

3) They put a crown of thorns on him, and put a red robe on him. Then they beat him with a stick on his head.

Mathew 27:28-30 They took off his clothes and put a red robe on him. Using thorny branches, they made a crown, put it on his head, and put a stick in his right hand. Then the soldiers bowed before Jesus and made fun of him, saying "Hail, King of the Jews!" They spat on Jesus. Then they took his stick and began to beat him on the head.

4) Then they crucified him. They took big nails, and nailed them through his hands, and feet to the cross. Imagine two huge nails going straight through your hands and feet! Then he got thirsty, and they gave him venegar to drink. Then when he died, one of the soldiers stuck a spear through his side, and blood and water came out. So he was dead.
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Old 10-03-2003, 01:30 PM   #61
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This is what I will always argue about. How can you desire justification for 1 of your beliefs, and not for others? If you find something easy to believe then why do you find something else hard to? Faith and knowledge are not similar things. Why it is always mixed?
i have faith but not in parting water and raining for 40 days and 40 nights. I mean knowledge is hard to come by. But i do better alot of the bibile.


Quote:
Remember this (hope it hasnt been said) but the 4 gospels were written by 4 different people, who saw different things, in 4 different perspectives. They wrote what they saw. So if they werent there for one event, how could they write about it? Plus, its not there to give a super detailed amazing description of of his life, but to give you the basic idea (how he was born, where, what happend, his baptism, his temptation, his teaching, his miracles, his persecution, his death, his resurrection) all fit into about 30-40 pages. It wasnt written to earn a special award, or to be a best seller, nor do i think the original authors had any clue at all, that you and me would be reading it today. It was written to tell people about christ, notice, mathew was for the jews, john for gentiles...etc. Who cares if they lack simple detail?
i know but they could have heard about it and just wrote what they heard not giving the whole truth. i know it was written to tell us stuff about our religion but some i think they were completely honest about that is my opinion about that ok.




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Old 10-03-2003, 01:42 PM   #62
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I'm still not convinced

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1) He was beaten, not just a normal beating though. The men who beat him put on knuckled fists, the minimum ammount of men beating someone was six, so they beat him with knuckled fists! Imagine, being beaten by six or more men with knuckled fists! That would hurt a lot!

2) Then they whipped him. Just a normal whip hurts, but this was way worse, they put metal at the end of it. They whipped his back, shoulders, and legs. This kind of whipping caused blood to just pour down him. By the time they are done, the skin was just hanging off of him, and blood was pouring out. People could see his organs inside. Thats not what any paintings of him show carrying the cross huh?

3) They put a crown of thorns on him, and put a red robe on him. Then they beat him with a stick on his head.

4) Then they crucified him. They took big nails, and nailed them through his hands, and feet to the cross. Imagine two huge nails going straight through your hands and feet! Then he got thirsty, and they gave him venegar to drink. Then when he died, one of the soldiers stuck a spear through his side, and blood and water came out. So he was dead.
Analyzing this I would assume Jesus would be in shock after he was beaten with fists. Either way the whole process wasn't continous. He had times of "rest". In shock state the effect of suffering is not that sensible. Second thing I assume is that bigger pain substanciate the lesser. That should also be counted if we're talking about such an imaginary subject.

And now imagine a man is hanged under the burning sun (for the worst) suffering from unbearable and unstoppable hunger and thirst while he's beginning to rot on the cross, when muscles become numb and there is no bigger pain to substanciate than the terrible pain of the whole body. Taking something in portions is always easier (wouldn't want to call it an axiom of course). I assume the fittest man could only stand 3 days in such condictions. Even relatively speaking it was Jesus death wasn't that "hard" although it was ecomplished with neccessary artistism directed to the people supporting Christ
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Old 10-03-2003, 01:43 PM   #63
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i know but they could have heard about it and just wrote what they heard not giving the whole truth. i know it was written to tell us stuff about our religion but some i think they were completely honest about that is my opinion about that ok.

Why would they? there would be no motive other than to pursuade a church, one that just started, not to mention they died to defend the gospels they wrote

lets say its all false, what did they gain by lying, we already know they were poor, they gave all there money to the poor, they had nothing basically. Then they died for that gospel. Some life eh? look at paul, he was a leading member of the pharisees. He was extremly educated, and had everything going for him. Then he gave it all up for christ! He was on his way to arrest christians! Then right in the middle of the road a bright light came out, he went blind, then christ spoke to him, and told him what to do. there were plenty of people around him, they heard the voice! Ive said this before, it wasnt believed, but anyways, why would he make all of that up, then give everything up, basically starve, get arrested who knows how many times... for a lie? Then in the end he lost his own head for it! Why die for a lie?
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Old 10-03-2003, 01:49 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
So if they werent there for one event, how could they write about it? ... (how he was born, where, what happend, his baptism, his temptation, his teaching, his miracles, his persecution, his death, his resurrection) all fit into about 30-40 pages.
Interesting... were these accounts written 'as they happened' or years after? If the latter, I would suggest that after many years of oral tradition, the final versions will find common ground in as much actual fact as agreed upon fact. I'm referring to the process of writing a previously oral story in general, not specifically the alleged history of J.C.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
It wasnt written to earn a special award, or to be a best seller, nor do i think the original authors had any clue at all, that you and me would be reading it today.
One has to consider that the pursuit of status and prestige is universal among homo sapiens sapiens. I challenge anyone to point to any contemporary figure, public or private, that is not driven by status/prestige. Also, it is very likely that they viewed the written account of Jesus to be a significant process. All four (actually there were more, but the various church officials, such as at the vatican, rejected some gospels... Thomas for instance) were written at a time when writing itself was not an easy process, nor was reading a widely held ability. I think their hopes were that this would last forever.

This is all assuming, of course, that the story of J. C. wasn't as mythological as the flood or parting of the Red Sea.

I wonder if thousands of years in our future, some archeaologist might not theorize that there existed a super human being that was a messiah to the 20th century and saved millions of people. His only weakness was in the lithic remains of his own world. He was found in a cornfield in Kansas and raised in a small town.... Smallville?


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Old 10-03-2003, 01:50 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul

And now imagine a man is hanged under the burning sun (for the worst) suffering from unbearable and unstoppable hunger and thirst while he's beginning to rot on the cross, when muscles become numb and there is no bigger pain to substanciate than the terrible pain of the whole body. Taking something in portions is always easier (wouldn't want to call it an axiom of course). I assume the fittest man could only stand 3 days in such condictions. Even relatively speaking it was Jesus death wasn't that "hard" although it was ecomplished with neccessary artistism directed to the people supporting Christ

Of course he prolly had times of rest, he went on trial a whole lot. It started late a night, and im guessing it last till about noon the next day (he got hung around noon) i think. Thats my guess. Why dont you believe that stuff happend to him?
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Old 10-03-2003, 01:53 PM   #66
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i know but to be famous is something everybody wants to be, i mean everyone likes to be famous. I'm not saying that it is all false and i know they gave their life for that but don't u think some of them stretch the truth just alittle bit, don't u think they did alittle bit, i mean most of it is true but it is hard to beleieve.




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Old 10-03-2003, 01:56 PM   #67
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But whats the point of being famous if your dead? There deaths would have been in vaine.
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Old 10-03-2003, 02:01 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
But whats the point of being famous if your dead?
It's the only proven method of living past death

Amount of fame = length of life after death

Shakespeare - still alive
Elvis - still alive
Jesus - still alive

Jimbob the red, best privy digger in Louisianna - died in 1902.

(assuming that any of these people were actually alive. Elvis is the only one I can vouch for.... saw him in concert.)


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Old 10-03-2003, 02:01 PM   #69
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Quote:
Of course he prolly had times of rest, he went on trial a whole lot. It started late a night, and im guessing it last till about noon the next day (he got hung around noon) i think. Thats my guess. Why dont you believe that stuff happend to him?
You mean why I believe Jesus had a relatively easy death comparing to what other alternatives crucifixion presented? Concerning that this data is in no way confirmed I just think that my opinion has more rights to exist than yours. Don't get me wrong but it is obvious for me that you try exaggerate some things to create a perfect vision of your favourite idol. Again, opinions are what we all are guilty of.

Last edited by Homuncul; 10-03-2003 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 10-03-2003, 02:03 PM   #70
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...oh well.

I guess I have to wait for Rainer511 to post.

Until then I don't think I can hope to get a 'rational' argument directly debating my points back from the christians...

*taps fingers patiently...*
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Old 10-04-2003, 01:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
...oh well.

I guess I have to wait for Rainer511 to post.

Until then I don't think I can hope to get a 'rational' argument directly debating my points back from the christians...

*taps fingers patiently...*
There are a few points that I have made in which you seem to not be seeing. I can only imagine that there are points that I am probably not seeing that your making. I only started posting on this topic because I had a few days in a row in which I didnít have to go to school, and now it is almost impossible to actively involve myself in a debate with you without compromising my either my studies or my social life. For these reasons I regret that I will resign from commenting further on this topic, at least temporarily if not indefinitely, including posts that I have yet to comment on. You have some good questions and on the same note I have some good answers. The reason I will not comment on posts prior to this is that if I do, no doubt someone will make comments on my own, then I will feel inclined to check this forum again, comment again, and the cycle continues. I hope that you will not see this as a lake of ability to answer your questions and refute your comments. I really do regret dropping out because there have been posts by those other than you on which I would like to comment on as well. If you like I could suggest some books on the subject of Apologetics.

More Than a Carpenter - Josh McDowell
The Case for Christ - Lee Strobel
The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Josh McDowell

More than a Carpenter is short and simple, 127 pages of reading. It briefly covers many topics, but it doesn't offer the amount of facts that I think you would like to find it very interesting. You won't find any evidence presented here for anything not relating to Christ. The Case for Christ is in my opinion a more enjoyable read and it offers more facts then you'll find in More Than a Carpenter. It's a 271 page read. Then you have The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict which is much longer with 742 pages. I haven't completely read through this myself but of what I've read it provides many more facts and it would be most likely more to your liking. Youíll probably cringe through the inerrancy of the Bible section though ^_^. One interesting fact about both of these authors is that they were both nonbelievers until they tried to disprove the Bible.


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Old 10-04-2003, 02:05 AM   #72
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Quote:
One interesting fact about both of these authors is that they were both nonbelievers until they tried to disprove the Bible.

Lol, a lot of did that! Me, on the other hand, believed it (but didnt really think about it all) I just shruged it off, and said it was a waste of time, I had "other" things to do. Well, all of that changed eventually...

Quote:
It's the only proven method of living past death

Amount of fame = length of life after death

Shakespeare - still alive
Elvis - still alive
Jesus - still alive

Jimbob the red, best privy digger in Louisianna - died in 1902.

(assuming that any of these people were actually alive. Elvis is the only one I can vouch for.... saw him in concert.)
Well, i was talking about paul, mathew, peter, john etc...

Anyways, they dont gain nothing out of it, if it is a lie, they died in vaine... its just not something I would do, unless i really, truly believed it... which i do...


Quote:
You mean why I believe Jesus had a relatively easy death comparing to what other alternatives crucifixion presented? Concerning that this data is in no way confirmed I just think that my opinion has more rights to exist than yours. Don't get me wrong but it is obvious for me that you try exaggerate some things to create a perfect vision of your favourite idol. Again, opinions are what we all are guilty of.
No, i mean, do you believe that none of that happend to him? The beatings, wippings? I mean, he wasnt the only person in history to have this done to him, the romans did it to other prisoners, but i think they had big charges against them.
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Old 10-04-2003, 06:34 AM   #73
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No, i mean, do you believe that none of that happend to him? The beatings, wippings? I mean, he wasnt the only person in history to have this done to him, the romans did it to other prisoners, but i think they had big charges against them.
In that case I never argued my belief in whether Christ was tortured or not. It was probably so. All I'm pointing is that historically he probably was a mere "person who was crucifyed". And hasn't Christ had his big charge against him?

There were also many innocent people (like Christ, although we can only guess) crucifyed before and after him. And so historically the mortyred death of Christ wasn't that extraordinary. The other thing is how his follwers then interpreted it, powered by his teachings (I might add wonderful teachings if what is said in the Bible is for a bit correct). And the whole different thing is how it is interpreted today by you and others in a manner of exaggeration and adoration.
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Old 10-04-2003, 10:34 AM   #74
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Rainer511,

Well - it's been a pleasure debating with you

I know that carrying on the debate properly would take up a lot of both of our time - so I understand...

Quote:
I hope that you will not see this as a lake of ability to answer your questions and refute your comments.
I certainly don't. You have proven to me that your not one of the christians who regurgitates their teachings parrot-fashion. It is obvious to me you have thought about not only your beliefs themselves, but WHY you have the right to believe them.
I'm sure you would have MUCH more to bring to the table in this debate...


At the end of the day - I don't claim to know what ACTUALLY 100% for sure happenned in the life of Jesus Christ - I would never be so presumtuous over 'comparatively' so little evidence.
This is why - in the final analysis - I have always stated 'I believe' as opposed to 'I know'.

But I do have firm 'beliefs' - based on what I know of the nature of man and religion.

At the very least, I hope I have replaced your 'amusement' over my ideas - with at least some understanding of why I reach my viewpoint on things.

You have also given me a lot to think about. And I WILL try and read the books you have suggested to read. I'm sure I will find them interesting.

...and it's great to see a Christian willing to discuss matters of the Bible PROPERLY with a 'non-believer'. I hope other christians on these boards will follow your example in future...
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Old 10-05-2003, 09:48 AM   #75
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See, it helps to realize that there are 30,000+ denominations of Christianity, and believe it or not, all of them do not believe the same things.

It is a spectrum, from ultra literalist fundamentalists on one end, to super duper liberals on the other (that you might not even recognize as Christian unless they insisted they were).

I'm somewhere in between. Understanding the history, I understand that doctrine developes. That's not to say what is true one day is not true the next, but we come to a deeper understanding of history, the world, and ourselves, and by extension of God (even if in the final analysis God can never be fully understood).

When people attack the Bible for its "mythology" I don't see it as an attack my faith. Why? Because I myself admit that parts of the bible contain mythology. I believe that when the stories were written they were written AS stories (granted, there is some history mixed in and some books are more historical than others). "Myths" in the sense that they were stories with meaning, meant to pass on values and knowledge through story-telling, not to give a literal account of science (in a pre-scientific culture).

Most of the stories were oral tradition, and the stories may have been adapted for each new generation to fit the problems and concerns of the day. Eventually (what with the Jews being scattered across the world and fearing the loss of their sacred history) the stories were written down in a more "final" form. Of course people argued over the "canon" (what books were considered inspired) for centuries. Nowadays the Catholic Church has one canon, the Protestant Churches another, the Orthodox Church, etc etc.

Of course the real story of Christianity is not found in the Bible, but in the history of the Church itself. The Bible is just one part (in my understanding) that stopped about the time the last book was written in the form we have today. The history of Christianity and Christian teaching continues today, and so to best understand it, we have to look at the history and what's happening today.

Otherwise we'll just read the Bible and assume everybody is still cutting up animals and burning their enemies villages and that sort of thing. Religion is a living entity, like a language, it grows and developes and is alive in people's everyday experiences.

Studying it from a historical perspective or studying the Bible is great sure, but there is a lot more in the other things I mentioned.

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling.

About the only "proof" for an afterlife (assuming you discount all the sacred texts and people who've claimed to see miracles over the centuries of course) I can think of off hand is near death experiences.

But of course, critics will say there has to be an explanation for it like the use of drugs on the person as they're trying to revive them that cause hallucinations or a part of the brain that makes us feel happy as we're dying (why though? a malfunction?) or somthing like that.

I honestly don't know. I prefer to think there is something after death. If there is, that's great, if there isn't, I won't be around to wonder about it (which is too bad, even knowing that it wasn't there might be interesting, but that's a paradox).

Some people say that a loving God would not send people to hell, others say a loving God would have to allow a hell because the evil people do needs to be punished if it can't be punished in this life. I honestly can't answer that question. I guess my belief goes along with some more Catholic ideas (purgatory) and some liberal Muslim beliefs.. that eventually most people will be saved, through some sort of purification, even after death, and eventually will know peace, and not eternal punishment. This is my personal belief and interpretation, rather than an official teaching of any specific body, but that's just me.


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Old 10-05-2003, 07:39 PM   #76
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Did you know that this guy from the bible, Simson, took a bone from the ground and with that bone he killed 1000 filiestea..filishtheh.. ah..you know, the guys who are nowadays referred to as "palestineans".

1.000 people. Killed. With a bone. 1.000 soldiers that were out to kill him. He hammered them all down with a bone.

Is the bible the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Btw - a palestinian whore seduced Simson (or whatever his name was) and cut his l337 hair thus making him lose his Strenght. Then Simson prayed and got enough strenght to make the roof fall on a ****load of palestinians killing them all. God had answered Simson's prayer. All palestinians died. Great.


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Old 10-06-2003, 02:22 AM   #77
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I could compair Christ to another famous guy whom the government of his time feared because he could start an uprising against it: Charles Manson.

Both were charismatic and had a definent following. Both were put down(though Manson can't be killed by the government, just imprisoned). Both had followers killing people(don't give me that crap that Christ didn't. He had an entire war).

What does this show I believe in? Simple. If Manson could convince people that he was a great guy, why couldn't someone who lived when peoples minds were even MORE simple than today?
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:00 PM   #78
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Quote:
Did you know that this guy from the bible, Simson, took a bone from the ground and with that bone he killed 1000 filiestea..filishtheh.. ah..you know, the guys who are nowadays referred to as "palestineans".
Quote:
1.000 people. Killed. With a bone. 1.000 soldiers that were out to kill him. He hammered them all down with a bone.
Quote:
Is the bible the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
i know is it true i mean how could a man kill 1,000 men with a bone it just hard to believe i mean they would surround him and kill him their is just no way

Kain i don't know what is wrong with u but Charles Manson is crazy and Christ did some werid stuff but he is not crazy or insane




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Old 10-06-2003, 01:11 PM   #79
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Quote:
Did you know that this guy from the bible, Simson, took a bone from the ground and with that bone he killed 1000 filiestea..filishtheh.. ah..you know, the guys who are nowadays referred to as "palestineans".

1.000 people. Killed. With a bone. 1.000 soldiers that were out to kill him. He hammered them all down with a bone.

Is the bible the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Btw - a palestinian whore seduced Simson (or whatever his name was) and cut his l337 hair thus making him lose his Strenght. Then Simson prayed and got enough strenght to make the roof fall on a ****load of palestinians killing them all. God had answered Simson's prayer. All palestinians died. Great.

1. his name is samson
2. It doesnt mean samson was the ONLY one doing all of that, ive thought about it, and either the palestinians were stupid, or he had help. For instance the people of israel has song

"Saul has killed thousands, but david has killed tens of thousands"

now, it is pretty amazing that david could single handedly kill over 10,000 people, whether it was spaced out, or at one time. The thing ive figured out is, he didnt actually do it, but he was more like the general commanding men, with his strategy he killed tens of thousands. (he normally has a large group of people with him) i think thats what happend with samuel.

3. your ending is wrong.
4. are you sayng its impossible to break a building down.... read the way he did it, he got between the main 2 polls, and pushed them aside, now, back then people did lots of hard labor (today we only use like 10% of the muscle the people had in the 1800s) and maybe the polls were already weakend. There were over a thousand people on top of the building. Imagine, all of that wieght mostly supported by 2 poles.


why post about the bible, and not research it...?
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:18 PM   #80
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What does this show I believe in? Simple. If Manson could convince people that he was a great guy, why couldn't someone who lived when peoples minds were even MORE simple than today?

werent those people high? he also said he believes every man is jesus.


Quote:
Both were charismatic and had a definent following. Both were put down(though Manson can't be killed by the government, just imprisoned). Both had followers killing people(don't give me that crap that Christ didn't. He had an entire war).

what war? id love to hear about it. definate following? 12 people? true, thousands followed him, but they werent really "followers" they were just there, sort of like church. in the end, they all turned on him. When did christ go against the government? If he was that bad, why did judas kill himself after he betrayed Jesus?
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