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Old 10-10-2003, 12:30 PM   #121
weiderudare
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Ok then, what defines a christian?
How should we live to get Gods attenion?
Killing people in Gods name has been done many times, and if their not christians, then what are they?

And what about the other religions? Do the moslems have wrong?


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Old 10-10-2003, 12:34 PM   #122
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a person who is fully faithful to god, not do stupid stuff, they our evil people, i don't know about theo ther ones




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Old 10-10-2003, 12:36 PM   #123
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But how are you faithful to God?
Paul(Is that his name?) wrote letters telling people not to marry ecother.
If God is so great and forgiving, why do we have to live a certain way to be accepted by him/her/it


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Old 10-10-2003, 12:37 PM   #124
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BTW, CTBD isnt the point of the debate to convince the other side your right. If not, then we might as well quit, because we will just debate forever, with no reason. So you complaining that im trying to convince makes no sense.
As far as I'm concerned, that is the typical school-boy definition of a debate, and explains your attitude in volumes.

Consider a court of law. Lawyers on opposing sides give their cases. They are free to bring forward evidence and counter each-others arguments. This is very similar in nature to the kind of debates we have here on these forums.

First point to make is that either case aren't free to make any old claim they like!! They must provide EVIDENCE. They must use logical and rational arguments. If they don't, the opposition can OBJECT.
...much in the same way that we sometimes object to each-other's points in these forums if we think the other party is not using logical or rational arguments.

The other important point is that in a court of law, both sides aren't just there to argue their cases JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING THEIR CASE - or to 'convince the other side their right.'
The POINT of it is to get to the TRUTH. That is the point of a court of law, and as far as I'm concerned, that is also the point of a debate. i.e. to get to the TRUTH of a matter by considering and discussing many viewpoints.

Now of course, I will believe my viewpoint to be the truth of the matter - at the time I give my opinion. This is normal and acceptable.
Otherwise, I would not bother giving an opinion!!

But, If I hear something from someone else which seems to contradict my viewpoint, and it is also backed up by evidence and is a logical, rational argument - then I have three choices.
I can either:

1. Acknowledge the point as valid - NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S

2. Acknlowdege the point, but provide a rational, logical counter-argument (with evidence)

3. Ignore the point as if it didn't exist and carry on with my arguments.

Choice no.3 can be used (free speech and all that), but debaters who resort to choice no.3 show themselves to be the kind of debaters who are actually NOT interested in reaching an agreement on the ACTUAL TRUTH.
...they are only interested in making sure their viewpoint APPEARS to be correct. i.e. CONVINCE the other side they are right...

You have resorted to Choice no.3 MANY times Luke.
If you insist on it, I will go back and quote you from the times you have - but I would rather you stand up and admit it like a man rather than me having to prove it to you...
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Old 10-10-2003, 12:38 PM   #125
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Originally posted by weiderudare
But what about the children that gets sick?
What evil things have they done?
If the have evil parents, why are the kids punished?
do the children have to suffer because of their parents mistake?

Just because God didnt make a virus (or did he? I dont know) that doesnt mean he is not omnipotent.

Maybe, the children serve as a punishment. I know its not fair... you act as if we live in a perfect world. A perfect world wouldnt need God. You act as if the world is perfect and your trying to blame everything bad that happens on God. It might be bad at the time, but it can turn out better. They even teach us stuff. For example not to take things for granted. We take almost everything for granted. We can learn to not take things for granted by seeing these people (our health) we are luckly that God has blessed us with good health.
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Old 10-10-2003, 12:40 PM   #126
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But how are you faithful to God?
i'm not that much i am kind of not that religious i am trying to start tho. Cause he made us that is why he made the life we live the enivornment so we have to make him happy




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Old 10-10-2003, 12:42 PM   #127
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Do I act as we live in a perfect world?
Blaming God?
Listen pal. I don't live in a perfect family. My parents have gotten divorced, I have been betrayed by my friends and picked on at school. So don't come here saying that I think the worlds perfect. Cause as long as the humans still lives here, it won't be perfect.

And blaming God, how can I blame something that doesn't exist?


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Old 10-10-2003, 12:50 PM   #128
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ok man i know how u feel my parents our divorced and i am picked on in school but both my parents hate me i can't stand so i do know it isn't perfect ok man my mom makes excuses every weekend so she don't have to come get me and my dad always yelled at me but i ingore them i can't stand them so that is why i wish my life was perfect but unfortuately mine isn't and i can't do anything about it




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Old 10-10-2003, 12:51 PM   #129
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Ok then, what defines a christian?
How should we live to get Gods attenion?
Killing people in Gods name has been done many times, and if their not christians, then what are they?

And what about the other religions? Do the moslems have wrong?

Weve talked about all of this... reread page (3?) I said how to become a christian. Ive said it several times.

What are they? Liars. Or people who have been decieved.

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Quote:
You have resorted to Choice no.3 MANY times Luke.

lol, true, when i dont post based on something you or someone has said, its either because i missed it, i forgot to, or i agree with you. But yeah, ive changed my views because of some of what you and others have said.



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But how are you faithful to God?
Paul(Is that his name?) wrote letters telling people not to marry ecother.
If God is so great and forgiving, why do we have to live a certain way to be accepted by him/her/it

You may have read the bible 2 times, but it must have been a while back. I try to be faithful to God, but like everyone else, i should work harder. Paul said there is nothing wrong with marriage. He said expect trouble if you decide to marry. But he said it was a good thing.

Answere my question then ill answere yours. Why should God accept you when you dont accept him?


Quote:
Do I act as we live in a perfect world?
Blaming God?
Listen pal. I don't live in a perfect family. My parents have gotten divorced, I have been betrayed by my friends and picked on at school. So don't come here saying that I think the worlds perfect. Cause as long as the humans still lives here, it won't be perfect.

And blaming God, how can I blame something that doesn't exist?
Ok, i apoligize for being judgmental.
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Old 10-10-2003, 12:56 PM   #130
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So you mean that everybody except the christians that "live" right is liars?
That means that only about 3-7 million people have right...
Thats not many.


Why would God accept me if I haven't accepted him?
In the bible, its said that God is allforgiving. But when Moses say a line wrong, he is not allowed to get into Kanaan.

And about the Paul thing, he says something like:If your married, fine, but if your not, don't.

And about you taking choice no.3 often makes me a bit sad....


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Old 10-10-2003, 01:27 PM   #131
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lol, true, when i dont post based on something you or someone has said, its either because i missed it, i forgot to, or i agree with you.
Nope - not true.

You have proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN you are MORE Than willing to refuse rational, reasonable arguments even if you have no rational argument or evidence to counter it.
You didn't just 'forget' them, or 'miss' them - you DISMISS them.

Deny it again, and I WILL find the quotes to prove my point.

In fact, I'll show you one brief example I spend 5 seconds finding. Believe me, I can find MANY more for you:

Quote:
I have not completly closed my mind, just partially (about the bible)
So this means literally no amount of evidence or rational arguments will bring you to the point where you question the validity of the Bible - thereby you admit that even if you claim you haven't had to use option 3 yet (maybe you don't think any of the things you've heard constitute a rational argument...), you freely admit to being WILLING to use option no.3 if nessesary...

In short:
If you claim the validity or 'divine' nature of the Bible CANNOT be questioned, you automatically forfeit yourself from any serious discussion about truth...

I on the other hand, would NEVER DREAM of stating that any principle I hold to be the truth could NOT be questioned...

THAT is the clear difference between our debating abilities Luke...
My mind is NEVER closed - or at least I try my hardest to keep it as open as possible on any subject.
You have freely admitted yours is CLOSED on at least one topic - and is quite obviously CLOSED concerning many other topics...

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Old 10-10-2003, 02:08 PM   #132
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As a response to CTBD, I would like to point out that humans are all closed-minded. Regardless of how open you try to be, the very fact that there are certain things that you fundamentally believe about the world (something that all humans must have to maintain their sanity) insists that you are closed-minded on certain topics. You have to be. It's simply psychology that humans need constants. Moreover, everyone has a certain paradigm or worldview that they ascribe to, whether consciously or not. Luke is being rational enough to at least acknowledge his closed mind on that topic. You're not. Regardless of how much proof is presented to to you, you will not believe, because you don't want to. Moreover, you cannot truly prove a religion. If you could, it wouldn't require faith. But you can show that there are parts of it that are logical and probable. That has been done repeatedly throughout this thread, though you refuse to acknowledge it.

I now proceed to take up Pascalian logic: If agnostics/atheists are right and Christians are wrong, what have Christians lost? BUT! If Christians are right and atheists are wrong, the atheists/agnostics lose bad. I don't know about you, but I know where I'd rather be in that.


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Old 10-10-2003, 03:05 PM   #133
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Originally posted by Homuncul
It's like you're hating god instead of criticizing it here. But I see it this way: you try to attribute to god some human characteristics, judging him from human perspective, while god's reasoning assuming his omnipotency and omniscience is perhaps something incomprehendable to us. If I wasn't .... I don't know who I am actually.... I would have said that god still has a plan in the long term, and that for all of this there was some kind of sadistic reason (judging with human criteria). I think the Holocaust is not the best example to try to criticize god.
I'm not hating God, I'm criticizing. Allow me to elaborate...

"God has a plan for everyone" is something commonly said by many christians. I heard it all the time when my friend died, and it annoyed the crap out of me. As such, I gave it a lot of thought.

God has a plan. Ok, I can buy that. We all have plans. I can also buy that Gods plan is more important than mine. After all, he is god.

I question his methods in implementing this "plan." Many people claim God to be benevolent, kind, and just, as well as all powerful. And this is where I have a problem.

Suppose Little Johnny contracts a flesh eating virus which eats him alive over the course of 6 months. He is in horrible pain, and dies slow. Upon his death, his relatives console the mother with "God has a plan for everyone."

Did Gods plan involve torturing an innocent child? If so, then he is, by no means, benevolent. I dont care how omnipotent or all knowing he is. Torturing innocent kids is not benevolent or kind, not by any standards.

Perhaps God needed Little Johnny in heaven? Make up a reason, maybe God needed someone to get him some Starbucks (hey, even God needs some Starbucks sometimes, he put it there). Well, wouldnt there be a better way to get Little Johnny to heaven? I'm not anywhere near omnipotent or all knowing, and I can think of dozens of ways to bump off Johnny quickly and painlessly. A little brain aneurism, a car accident that results in instant death, etc. I could go on and on. So he could not be benevolent, or he's not all powerful. If he is one, then he is not the other.

Maybe God needed to torture little Johnny to teach the others around him a lesson (whatever that could be). Again, aren't there better ways to teach a lesson to people than flesh eating viruses? Or, the HIV virus, while we're at it. "You're all wrong, so I'm gonna take this innocent kid and dissolve him over the next six months, then NOT tell you what I mean by it or why I'm doing it. That way, you'll learn a lesson..... *cough*..." Sorry, again, that makes no sense by any logic.

Maybe God has his omnipotent reasons and I cant comprehend them? Sorry, I can't resolve myself to simply saying "Oh well, I can't know." Because i want to know. And if God expects me to follow him and follow his rules, then I damn well better know what I'm getting into, and I'd prefer to hear it from God him/herself, rather than a 3000 year old book that may or may not be totally legit.

[/rant]

Sorry, kinda blanked out and typed like mad. Wow, that was fast... No, I dont hate God. I just want to know why he allows things to happen the way they do. My guess is he is either A) Not all powerful.. or B) He's not benevolent.


Keralys, in response to your Pascalian Logic....

It doesnt work, because according to the Christians very own beliefs, it takes faith, deep faith, to truly be saved. I mean, you really, really have to believe in God and believe that Jesus saved you and so on.

Luc Solar made a post a while back that reflected my opinions perfectly. We cannot believe because we simply cannot believe. It doesnt matter how hard we try to believe, we can't! He made the analysis of something like "Do you believe that the Finnish basketball team will win in the Olympics? No? Ok, now really, really try to believe it. You have to believe it. Your life depends on it!...... Do you believe it? Honestly? Didn't think so."

Some people can make these leaps of faith, be it through their upbringing or psychological makeup. But some of us want more than someone elses word to go on....


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Old 10-10-2003, 03:33 PM   #134
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Luke is being rational enough to at least acknowledge his closed mind on that topic. You're not....
...Moreover, you cannot truly prove a religion. If you could, it wouldn't require faith
First of all, if my mind is closed in anyway, then I am at fault, and I should change.
You are right, as humans we are infalliable and almost certainly we are all - to a certain or lesser extent - closed minded in various ways, even without realising it.

...but at least I'm TRYING to be as open minded as possible.

An important point to make, though, is that it is not closed minded to come to a conclusion on the 'truth' based on the evidence available.

Example: I have come to the conclusion, based on the evidence, that the Earth is not flat.
...someone could argue that I have CLOSED my MIND to the idea of the Earth being flat.
But the truth is I haven't closed my mind to it. I have just dismissed the possibility due to the absense of any subsantial evidence to back that claim, and the MOUNDS of evidence there is avaliable to discount it.
...it's simple really. Any part of that you want to claim is CLOSED MINDED?

So - dismissing certain possibilies due to lack of evidence is NOT closed minded - that is the only way we human beings have to determine truth that isn't irrational...

You can come to your conclusion of the truth - fine.
I can come to mine - fine again.

The REAL problem comes when you say your idea of the 'truth' can't be questioned, or I say my idea of the 'truth' can't be questioned.

I have NEVER said anything I consider 'truth' can't be questioned. (even the Earth not being flat!!).
Try and find an instance of it - you won't. In this manner, I am NOT closed-minded.

However, if somebody tries to question my idea of 'truth' in an illogical and irrational manner, I will not acknowlege that. I HAVE done that MANY times, and make no exuses for it...

Aha. And thank you Master_Keyalys - you have now used the all-important word...

...FAITH!
...finally, you are completely dropping the impression of rational discussion!!

The implication is that something such as religion cannot be proven to a reasonable degree - therefore you HAVE to have a certain amount of faith in order to believe it.

...what an interesting concept!

If Religion is truth, and...
truth can be proven (to a resonable degree)...

therefore...

religion can be proven (to a reasonable degree) - if it is truth.

THe only point to debate then is:
'What is a reasonable degree of proof'.

Of course - the sweeping declaration that Religion cannot be completely proven, and therefore REQUIRES Faith is VERY VERY convinent! THis basically means you only have to produce a MINIMUM amount of evidence, and you only have to dispute a FRACTION of any rational claims made against your arguments.

Anything else can be comfortably swept away with the concept of 'Faith'.

If you want to beleive in something (true or untrue), Faith is great.
However, if you want to come to some kind of solid conclusion of what is ACTUALLY true, then Faith is in many ways your worst enemy...

Quote:
Regardless of how much proof is presented to to you, you will not believe, because you don't want to.
Utter rubbish.
I have opened myself to any 'proof' presented to me and given it due consideration.
Again, please present me with one example where I haven't...

And I don't believe not because i don't WANT to - I don't beleive because the evidence does not warrant it from my analysis.

Quote:
But you can show that there are parts of it that are logical and probable. That has been done repeatedly throughout this thread, though you refuse to acknowledge it.
Any parts of christian (or any religious) arguments that I have agreed upon as being logical and probable I HAVE acknowledged.

And I have NO problem with the idea that certain aspects of Christian (or any other religious) thinking are logical.
But certain parts have no real rational basis. I don't even have to try and show this - you make this clear by admitting you need FAITH to believe in it!!

Quote:
I now proceed to take up Pascalian logic: If agnostics/atheists are right and Christians are wrong, what have Christians lost? BUT! If Christians are right and atheists are wrong, the atheists/agnostics lose bad. I don't know about you, but I know where I'd rather be in that.
Again - a typical irrational religious outlook on the truth.

The truth is the truth is the truth. How it benefits or DOES NOT benefit my personal position, or your personal position, is ABSOLUTELY IRRELAVENT.

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Old 10-10-2003, 04:12 PM   #135
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Keralys, in response to your Pascalian Logic....

It doesnt work, because according to the Christians very own beliefs, it takes faith, deep faith, to truly be saved. I mean, you really, really have to believe in God and believe that Jesus saved you and so on.

Luc Solar made a post a while back that reflected my opinions perfectly. We cannot believe because we simply cannot believe. It doesnt matter how hard we try to believe, we can't! He made the analysis of something like "Do you believe that the Finnish basketball team will win in the Olympics? No? Ok, now really, really try to believe it. You have to believe it. Your life depends on it!...... Do you believe it? Honestly? Didn't think so."

Some people can make these leaps of faith, be it through their upbringing or psychological makeup. But some of us want more than someone elses word to go on....
Well said Shock / Luc Solar, and good point.
...at least it is accepted as a good point by those of us who are thinking rationally.

(I know - rational thinking - what a sinful attitude! We are SO SO BAD)
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Old 10-10-2003, 04:24 PM   #136
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Ok, so a virus just pops out of no where, and is only spread through sex,... Every 24 hrs (maybe 12) it changes... or something ... So its practically impossible to make a vaccine.

1. Not out of no where. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed... it mutated from something else, most likely another related virus.

2. It isn't spread "only through sex." It is spread through fluidic exchange. Sex is but one vector. The virus itself is anaerobic and cannot survive outside of bodily fluids.

3. The mutation rate isn't near that frequent. The reasons antiviral drugs have thus far been largely ineffective is the way in which the virus works. The HIV has found its niche and has little to fear. Ironically, there is a non-deleterious genetic mutation called CCR5-delta 32 and is present in approximately 10% of all whites of European decent and 2% in central Asia. The mutation is completely absent among East Asians, Africans, and American Indians.

So it seems obvious that if the HIV is a "punishment of god," then his real target isn't sexual amorality but the "savage races" of our planet. At least 10% of whites are free to engage in whatever sex they choose....

Quote:
Who knows what reason God has for that?
The idea that a god created even one disease as a punishment doesn't hold water. There are too many inconsistencies with the notion. One would expect a god to be more efficient for one. Also, one would expect a god to make it known [i]how, what and why[i] the punishment is administered.... What good is the punishment if it isn't obvious to those being punished or to those who might learn from it?

No, HIV/AIDS is not a divine message/intervention/punishment. It is exactly what we expect: a disease that proliferates in part due to the behavior of the species in which it afflicts. Once HIV is defeated, there will be a new one...


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Old 10-10-2003, 06:47 PM   #137
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So you mean that everybody except the christians that "live" right is liars?
That means that only about 3-7 million people have right...
Thats not many.

I wasnt talking about that! I was talking about the people who claim to be christians, and directly knowingly do something aweful. But then again, all sin is equal, so i guess by me just lying, or doing something wrong would make me a liar something to think about.



Quote:
1. Not out of no where. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed... it mutated from something else, most likely another related virus.

2. It isn't spread "only through sex." It is spread through fluidic exchange. Sex is but one vector. The virus itself is anaerobic and cannot survive outside of bodily fluids.

3. The mutation rate isn't near that frequent. The reasons antiviral drugs have thus far been largely ineffective is the way in which the virus works. The HIV has found its niche and has little to fear. Ironically, there is a non-deleterious genetic mutation called CCR5-delta 32 and is present in approximately 10% of all whites of European decent and 2% in central Asia. The mutation is completely absent among East Asians, Africans, and American Indians.

So it seems obvious that if the HIV is a "punishment of god," then his real target isn't sexual amorality but the "savage races" of our planet. At least 10% of whites are free to engage in whatever sex they choose....

Its possible. But any person is free (just about.. over 18 i guess) to engage in whatever sex they choose.




Quote:
The idea that a god created even one disease as a punishment doesn't hold water. There are too many inconsistencies with the notion. One would expect a god to be more efficient for one. Also, one would expect a god to make it known [i]how, what and why[i] the punishment is administered.... What good is the punishment if it isn't obvious to those being punished or to those who might learn from it?
Hmm... say i go with a hooker, and get hiv, that would obviosly teach me not to do that anymore (and if you check your bible it doesnt allow sex before marriage nor adultery)

Quote:
Once HIV is defeated, there will be a new one...
But doesnt that tell you that we (people) arent going to get away with our sins. Sure, all plagues pass in time, and others come, and they will leave, ether through human prevention, or some other means. But others will come, and maybe God has something to do with it. A couple hundred years ago people could die from a sore throught infection, now its gone in a week. The viruses come back even stronger each time.

uhh... seems ive run out of time... (end of school)
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Old 10-10-2003, 07:08 PM   #138
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Hmm... say i go with a hooker, and get hiv, that would obviosly teach me not to do that anymore (and if you check your bible it doesnt allow sex before marriage nor adultery)
Luke,

If you don't know what profession you wish to pursue after you finish your schooling, I would suggest being a comedian!
...cos that above statement is HILARIOUS!

OK - it's ignorant, grotesque etc. etc. - but it's also damn funny if viewed as black comedy!


...that's the bit they didn't mention in the gospels I guess:

Quote:
'And the pharasiees saw Jesus sitting and talking with the sinners, the prostitutes and the adulterers.
And they said 'Why do you associate with such people Lord? They are sinners!'
And Jesus said - 'He who is without sin cast the first stone. I came to adminster to the sick, not to the healthy'.

..and then as Jesus walked away past the pharasiees, he winked, and whispered to them 'It's OK. The last laugh is on them - I just infected them with a nice bit of HIV! That'll teach 'em!'

...and the pharasiees did rejoice...'

Those of you who may think I'm making light of serious issues, I'm afraid I'm not the one making light of them...
...this is what some Christians actually believe! Incredible isn't it!

The God who came down and treated sinners with respect and humility could apparently be the same god who will then turn around and inflict them with a deadly, terrible virus to :

Quote:
..teach them a lesson
I can't think of many concepts which are more perposterous or outrageous...

...or maybe this is god's idea of a 'good cop, bad cop' routine?!

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Old 10-11-2003, 12:20 AM   #139
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i'm not saying that is how it is done why else would he give them diseases i mean that is no way to die that is a terrible way to die so that is why i think that but i don't know how he does it if i did don't u think i would have said so by now




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Old 10-11-2003, 01:33 AM   #140
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lol @ CTBD's first comment. At your 2nd one, its not like they they just get it (although some get it first time around) but still, God deals with people in different ways. Wouldnt you learn something? Anyways... time to read what the rest of the people said (i didnt have time earlier.


Quote:
Moreover, you cannot truly prove a religion. If you could, it wouldn't require faith. But you can show that there are parts of it that are logical and probable. That has been done repeatedly throughout this thread, though you refuse to acknowledge it.

Ummm... thats awesome the faith part... something ive never thought about ever! Thanks. BTW, somewhere... CTBD did say that some of the bible was true... or something like that. Maybe not fully open minded, but at least partially.

Ill tell you though, i am closed minded as to someone prooving the bible wrong, lol, lots of people say they can do it, but never have. Or they try, but it doesnt work out.


Quick Question: Why does God punish the wicked? Why does a parent punish the child? Think about it. He is being benevolent in punishing us. Why does he punish us? Because he loves us. Read your bibles again. People seem to remember the plagus and wars more than they remember when he saved the people from those things.

Quote:
The God who came down and treated sinners with respect and humility could apparently be the same god who will then turn around and inflict them with a deadly, terrible virus to :


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..teach them a lesson

Why does he do that, because he loves them. He wants them to see his love. There is also another side to punishment... he could bless them. But sexual sin... is one of the worse in any book. Notice how many people who are just constantly say dirty jokes, or are involved in lots of sexual sin become insane, or just simply get a life threatening disease. Thats often near the end of there life, and have had a lot of time to turn to God.

Its not like you dont know your doing wrong!

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Old 10-11-2003, 02:20 AM   #141
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i agree the sexual one is worst punishment but i still they the disease our punishment for the ones who have done very bad sins




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Old 10-11-2003, 02:24 AM   #142
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I've just spent the last 20 mins reading so this thread and *omg* so many people miss the point. A better writer than me, SFGate columnist Mark Morford hits the nail on he head when he says:

"the dangerous absurdity of a people taking these tales -- and gods -- way, way too literally.

Of separating the stories and gods from their own lives and insisting on seeing the culture's deities as something other than the mere reflection, the personification, of their own internal lives and spiritual journeys and the need to get off their collective ass and quit being so hollow and mean and piously self-righteous and eager for war.

There is no superior bearded father-figure God. There is no Heaven as physical place. There is no literal reading of holy adventures and Heaven/Hell battles and fluttery cute cherub angels with wings. It is all story, all literary torque, all metaphor and analogy and personification of emotion and spirit, a way for the human animal to elevate toward greater and greater levels of compassion and love and mutual understanding and enough with the pipe bombs and the indignation and the hatred already.

The virgin birth did not actually happen. It is simply a metaphor for the birth of pure compassion and spiritual feeling in the heart of man. Christ's body did not fly out of a cave and rise to the pretty blue sky. It is a symbol for man moving inward, opening to his spiritual self.

Deities and demons do not exist "out there" in some other space where we will eventually travel and hang out and romp giddily and watch porn and eat all the pie and candy we want. They're internal, as facets and aspects of our own spiritual beings. This is what Campbell teaches. So simple. So beautiful. So radically misunderstood.

From the Bible to the Upanishads, the Koran to the teachings of the Buddha, Greek myth to American Indian folklore, the similarities between beliefs, their borrowed deities, their shared iconography, their reinvented tales and common themes, are all revealed to be so astonishingly interconnected, so obviously cut from the same internal psychological cloth, and so beautifully a part of all cultures, that to wage war in the name of one is to wage war on them all.

And to think of any one as superior to the others is to do violence to the very ideas and energies they illumine, and only serves to isolate, and enrage, and induce severe diarrhetic paranoia."


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Old 10-11-2003, 03:40 AM   #143
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I think I shall have to add Mark Morford to my reading list... San Fransisco Gate was it?

That is exactly the sentiment I have about religion in general. Spirituality shouldn't be limited to those that are theistic... Richard Feynman, a devout atheist, was a very spiritual person.

By "Campbell," I'm assuming he's referring to Joseph Campbell? I've followed a good bit of his work in examining the beliefs, mythology, and religions of the world.


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Old 10-11-2003, 03:47 AM   #144
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i don't know nothing about them i have never hear of them to be honest who our they i mean if i have i don't remember, could someone tell me about them




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Old 10-11-2003, 03:55 AM   #145
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SkinWalker - yes it was the San Franciso Gate www.sfgate.com

and Morford is required reading IMHO! I quoted from this column of his http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...otes111502.DTL in my earlier post.


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Old 10-11-2003, 09:00 AM   #146
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Why does he do that, because he loves them. He wants them to see his love. There is also another side to punishment... he could bless them. But sexual sin... is one of the worse in any book. Notice how many people who are just constantly say dirty jokes, or are involved in lots of sexual sin become insane, or just simply get a life threatening disease. Thats often near the end of there life, and have had a lot of time to turn to God.
Haha. Luke, your career as a comedian is getting more and more promising with each post!
That was even more entertaining than your last discourse!

...people who tell dirty jokes become insane?!
...people who are involved in a lot of sexual 'sin' - haha - become insane?!

By that reasoning, the Rolling Stones would ALL have to be in straight jackets by now!! LMAO

God loves sinners and wants them to see his love by...
...inflicting upon them - not just a killer virus, but one which causes a prolonged, agonising death?!

LMFAO - please Luke, stop it - I can't breathe I'm laughing so hard!!

Luke - your problem is you just don't live in the same reality as the rest of us! Your living in your own little world where these things your saying are true.

But please, by all means continue - I need some more laughs...!

Quote:
Ill tell you though, i am closed minded as to someone prooving the bible wrong
I rest my case.
Compare this statement with another quote from Luke in another thread:

Quote:
concerning the bible...

Its not unquestionably true. It cant all be proven, i never said it could be. So it would be stupid of me to say it IS true. All i say is, i believe it is. That the conclusion we would reach, it cant be proven, nor disproven, and its a waste of time trying to do either. Its faith in the end.
To paraphrase:

'I will believe whatever I want to believe, regardless of ANY evidence for or against.'

...and THAT is the very definition of irrational thinking.
Take a bow Luke - you are a self-confessed irrational thinker.
Your free to give your opinion - and as a comedian you have a bright future ahead of you - but for one, I don't tend to take the words of irrational people seriously...

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Old 10-11-2003, 01:08 PM   #147
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I didnt say it always happend... but anyways....


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Old 10-11-2003, 01:51 PM   #148
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That's right Luke.

One post, you clearly imply a strong link between sexual 'sin' and (haha - still makes me chuckle) insanity, and then you try and downplay it in your very next post after you have it made clear to you what a ridiculous notion it is.

Of course, I'd have more repsect for you if you just fully retracted such a ludicrous theory in the first place. But that kind of action is only applicable to rational debators - so I don't expect you to...

...well, looks like the rational christians have dried up in this thread, so I think I'll move on...
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Old 10-11-2003, 04:37 PM   #149
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Why does he do that, because he loves them. He wants them to see his love. There is also another side to punishment... he could bless them. But sexual sin... is one of the worse in any book.
Next time something really crappy happens in my life. I will just turn to the sky and say "Thank you for that sign of love god. I really didn't know you cared till I got cancer."

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Notice how many people who are just constantly say dirty jokes, or are involved in lots of sexual sin become insane, or just simply get a life threatening disease. Thats often near the end of there life, and have had a lot of time to turn to God.
Well you know my mother was never constantly telling dirty jokes or involved in sexual sins. She got a life threatening disease and died half way through life. Dam god sure does pick em. Maybe he should let Santa Clause start picking out who has been naughty or nice, because he seems to have a problem with it.

Obviously you're going to justify that by saying god has a plan or whatever bull sh!t. I say that, because that's just what it is. As for people becoming "Mentally Insane" I suggest you go work in a mental hospital. Why? Because all kinds of people fall off their rocker. We have Dr.s, Lawyers, House wives and even Preachers. We also have drug addicts and the like.

You know what I have noticed a lot of these people were screwed up from the start. god was screwing their life up from the get go they didn't have a chance. Either through genetics or mental abuse. Most people aren't going to turn out right no matter how hard they try even if they care.

Why don't you go tell some kid that has been sexually abused all his or her life and has herpes from their moms BF. That god loves them and did all that to show them that he cares and see what kind of response you get. I'll make sure you have a private room with them so they can beat your butt.

Personally to me christian fanatics with their talk are just as bad as muslims flying a 747 into a building. Both are trying to accomplish the same goal except christans gave up on murdering along time ago. They still think scaring and confusing people that don't think the way they do is going to turn them so they get their way. Sorry bub I'm not turning better go back to burning people at the stake.

I'm sorry to all the other people in the forum, but I have been reading the crap for several days and frankly just can't take it anymore. I don't post here that much anymore not because I think any of it's right but because it's the same people debating about the same stuff just a different thread title.

Being a christian is like being a alcoholic. It's a dependency. Except instead of a chemical dependency it's a emotional dependency. Ever here someone say that "they couldn't wake up in the morning if they didn't know god was there." Or "I just couldn't imagine going through life without god by my side." it's fascination bordering on delusion. Alcoholics have the same problems they can't wake up in the morning without a drink and they can't go through the day without one. So when you're debating with a christian think of debating with a alcoholic not to drink............

People that generally have no real direction in life or idea what's going on usually fall prey to this crap. If not at birth. They loose hope or stability somewhere and fall right in, because it all sounds so good. The only purpose in life we have is the one we make for ourselves. If you can't do it better cling on to something, because it's going to be a ruff ride. "We all know we can't have purpose without god right." We don't need a false god to give us purpose. So simple, but true.

Allot of good things have happened in my life and allot of bad things, but you know I have never been a christian and never will. I might fall on my butt tomorrow god didn't do it to me I did it to myself. I'm responsible for the things I accomplish and the things I don't. People need to give them selves more credit for there own accomplishments and failings.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Its not like you dont know your doing wrong!
It's not like the christians buring people didn't know they were doing wrong or when they were comenting genocide on the Native Amerians? It's not like when I walk down a street and some Freek preaching the bible looks at me and tells me "You're going to hell if I don't do god's work." He dosn't know he is doing wrong does he? Just like I wonte know I'm doing wrong when I punch him in the face. god doesn't send me to jail for it I send myself....


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Old 10-12-2003, 03:30 AM   #150
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Well Cosmos Jack, I too have been reading this topic for the past couple of days, and frankly, I can't take much more of it. I have a question. If there is no God, then why is there good in the world? Before you scoff at my question, think about it. If we are inherently good then why is there evil? If we are inherently evil then why is there good? You could say that you don't believe the human being is inherently good or evil, but then you have another problem. If what we do and what we think are a set of highly evolved instincts then why is there any sense of morality? Also is it wise to automatically assume the existence of a loving God is an impossibility based on the suffering in the world? You're judging the infinite with a finite mind. Here is an analogy I read. A hunter catches a bear in a bear trap. He feels compassion for the bear, and attempts to let him free. The man approaches, and the bear becomes hostile and won't let him get close enough to help. Why? The bear thinks the man is attacking him. The man then shoots the bear full of drugs so that he can help him, and the bear again, being shot, thinks he is still under attack. You would not expect a bear to understand the logic of the man, neither should you expect man to understand the logic of God. To say that there cannot be a loving God because of suffering is a close-minded statement. However, to say you don't understand what purpose the suffering has is a very legitimate statement.

You can't say that someone's having a disease is a punishment for their own sin, that sounds like Karma to me. I'm not saying that God has never punished anyone directly by seemingly natural means, but that cannot account for absolutely all diseases and suffering.

God created the world, and it was good. There was no suffering, and there was no sin. God created man, and gave him a choice in whether or not he would follow Him. God wants man to love Him. The only way for there to be love is if there is a choice to hate, there cannot be love without choice. In this God created the possibility for sin. Satan wants to destroy God, but he canít. Instead he takes to destroying humans by tempting man into sin. Where does suffering come from? Sexual immorality, humans torturing other humans, hurtful things that people say-these are things that cause a form of suffering. These things are also considered sinful. Before you go accusing me of contradicting myself, please realize Iím trying to say that suffering is a product of sin, but not necessarily a punishment for sin. Iím not saying that torturing someone will cause you to have suffering, but that torturing someone causes suffering. I think people here are looking at it the wrong way. Here is an example, sexual immorality. He knows that in the world he created if you go having sex with every person you meet there is a good chance youíre going to be suffering, so he tells us not to. If you told a child not to touch the stove and they did it and got burnt, are their burnt fingers a punishment for not listening to their parents? I wouldnít think so.

I will openly admit to having a dependancy on Christ. However this is different from an alcoholics dependancy. If you had a good friend who helped you through troubled times, who was always there for you when you needed it, in a sense you depend upon that person. This is the dependancy that I have with Christ. And in another sense I depend upon Him in the arena of eternity.

Once we sinned, God had a problem. The nature of an 'all powerful' being is that he cannot contradict himself. God cannot be in the presence of Sin. The payment for sin is death, not only mere physical death but also spiritual death. So what is God to do? He is a loving God, but at the same time He is a righteous God. His very nature destroys the sinful, but the people He loves are sinful. The answer? He sends His Son down in bodily form, and He goes around, spreading Godís Word. Satan sees this, and what a chance! God has put His only Son in Satanís domain-now Jesus has to play by his rules! Satan uses Pilot, Herod, and other political leaders to try and kill Him. With Herod he fails, but he ultimately triumphs-and oh what a triumph it was. Not only did he kill Him, but he did so in glorious fashion. Humiliation, suffering, a cry to his father, the works! Wait a minute, heís taking on the sins of the world, and in doing this anyone who asks can have forgiveness through him. Satan can no longer take souls with him to hell so easily, but who cares? Satan just killed the embodiment of God, who in their right mind would believe in a God who died at the hands of mortals, even if he was in bodily form. But to Satanís dismay Jesus visited hell for merely three days before breaking out resurrected affirming his deity. The righteousness of God was fulfilled with his sacrifice, and now the loving God is free to accept all who ask for forgiveness.

Also remember, before you comment, my logic should only be consider that of an alcoholic. I am unwise and irrational, for my faith blinds me from the truth. Be sure to use small words, for you wouldnít want to confuse an idiotic Christian bigot like myself. And if you cannot see this as utter sarcasm then you have no right to be posting here.


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Old 10-12-2003, 06:46 AM   #151
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Lucifer never wanted to KILL God. He wanted to BE God. So what does God do in his omnipotence. He 'condemns' Lucifer to Hell, to rule over all of its dominion and sin and all that B.S.. So God gets rid of Lucifer, who only wanted to be God, by turning him into a God of his own dominion.

Now that I read this again, I just realized something: Christianity is a polytheist religion. It has the Holy Trinity (oh but thats one person) and it has Satan. Now before you jump on me let me explain.

Christians claim to worship a single God, making them monotheists to appease they're God. But they make God to be the God of Good, and he's made of 3 different sections (Father, Son, Ghost blah blah blah). But Christian's also know about another being. A God of Evil; Satan.

Missing my point? Let me make it simple. A Greek Priest of Zeus didn't warship Hades too. He served his 'God' but knew of other Gods of different domains.
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Old 10-12-2003, 08:17 AM   #152
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I think Satan wants to kill God, he displayed that by warring against Him in heaven. Even if he doesn't want to kill God, in which I highly doubt, my statement did not stand on whether or not Satan wanted to kill Him and be god, or just be a god.

Is Satan omnipotent? No. Is Satan omnipresent? No. Is Satan omniscient? No. Satan isn't much of a god now is he? Besides what makes a god, well, god? Is it something or someone that you worship? Then to Christians Satan isn't a god. Is it something all powerful, all knowing, and ever present? Then Satan isn't a god. Christians do not acknowledge Satan as god, but the Greeks acknowledged Hades as god, that is the difference.


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Old 10-12-2003, 11:31 AM   #153
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Quick preface,
The only reason I'm replying is because Rainer511 has rejoined the debate...

Quote:
If there is no God, then why is there good in the world? Before you scoff at my question, think about it. If we are inherently good then why is there evil? If we are inherently evil then why is there good?
This concept is only a problem if your bound to the concepts of 'good' and 'evil'.

To demonstrate, let's take a cheetah that I saw on a nature program the other day. It was chasing and hunting a gazelle. It had managed to catch up with the gazelle and given it a blow to one of it's legs. It could not escape.
Now, the cheetah could have just killed it anytime it liked at this point. But, instead, it decided to just sit by it. Anytime the gazelle tried to get away - which was impossible as the gazelle wasn't able to run - the cheetah just gave a quick swipe of it's claw and kept it from going anywhere.
From my point of view, it almost looked like it was playing with it. It could have finished the kill at any point, but instead it would just stop it from escaping by ripping more and more chunks into the animals flesh.

...now, to many people, that may look like 'evil'. Sure, the cheetah has to kill the gazelle and eat it to survive. We can all understand that. But does it have to make it a prolonged death? Why did it have to play with it, and cause it unnessesary distress and agony?

THe fact is that 'good' or 'evil' probably has nothing to do with it.

Maybe the cheetah was just plain tired from the chase and was just too tired to finish the kill at that point.
Maybe more probable is that in some way the cheeath found the occasional movment to attack stimulating - in the same way a cat will attack a string dangled in front of it. It's not sitting there thinking "wow - I LOVE hurting this poor, defenseless gazelle", but it's got inbuilt instincts which tell it to perform an attack dependant on particular stimuli.

When the gazelle was running, it's in full hunt mode.

If the cheetah had killed the gazelle instantly during the hunt, then the gazelle would be dead, hence no movement, and the cheetah would not torture it, but go ahead and eat it.

But in this case the gazelle wasn't killed instantly, so it was still moving. BUt it wasn't moving properly, which meant it became something different to the cheetah. It was no longer prey to be hunted, it was just a stimuli - just like a ball of string. Almost like target practice...

The moral of the story - some of the things we catagorise as 'good' or 'evil' are only to do with our 'viewpoint' of the truth.

Quote:
To say that there cannot be a loving God because of suffering is a close-minded statement. However, to say you don't understand what purpose the suffering has is a very legitimate statement.
I accept that point. God could be so more intelligent and have such a better view of the world than us, that his 'righteous' a nd 'just' actions could appear otherwise to our mortal minds.
...that's possible.

Or, another possibility is that we like to have someone to blame when things go wrong.
If my house get's blown away in a hurricane, I can shout at God and say 'WHY GOD!!'. When in fact, a hurricane is just a certain type of weather system. It has no intent, no conciense - it can't say 'I think - therefore I am'...
Also, HIV / AIDS could be just a natural phenomonem - not designed or inflicted by any 'God'.

So - I think we can conclude that since these two possibilities exist, and we can't really tell the difference between the two, because God's actions may be so incomprihensible to us, that looking at 'natural' phenomenen and trying to imply 'God like meaning' into them isn't going to be a very accurate way of determining the existance or non-existence of God.

...but many christians, particularly on this forum, are going to continue trying anyway...

Quote:
You can't say that someone's having a disease is a punishment for their own sin, that sounds like Karma to me. I'm not saying that God has never punished anyone directly by seemingly natural means, but that cannot account for absolutely all diseases and suffering.
Thanks Rainer511. You've done the side of christianity justice by making that point clear.

Quote:
Here is an example, sexual immorality. He knows that in the world he created if you go having sex with every person you meet there is a good chance youíre going to be suffering, so he tells us not to.
OK, first of all I'll skip by the obvious exxaduration. (even the Rolling Stones haven't slept with EVERY SINGLE WOMAN they have met!! )

And let me make one thing clear, I think it's fairly admariable to wait until your married to have sex.

I'm still intreaged by this idea, though, that people who engage in sex outside of marriage are 'going to suffer'. If you mean in the afterlife, well - ok, you can believe that if you like.
But if you mean within their lifetime, I would like to know how you come to this conclusion...

Even when I was a 'believer' in Christianity, and I thought also that sex before marriage was wrong, I never thought that sexual sinners were going to have a bad time here on Earth! In fact, I was thinking quite the opposite!!
I always thought that they were going to get their 'payback' in the next life.

Why are these people 'bound to suffer' here? Please explain...

Quote:
Once we sinned, God had a problem. The nature of an 'all powerful' being is that he cannot contradict himself. God cannot be in the presence of Sin. The payment for sin is death, not only mere physical death but also spiritual death. So what is God to do? He is a loving God, but at the same time He is a righteous God. His very nature destroys the sinful, but the people He loves are sinful. The answer? He sends His Son down in bodily form...

...The righteousness of God was fulfilled with his sacrifice, and now the loving God is free to accept all who ask for forgiveness.
Well Rainer, that's a nice story. I know that probably sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually not being.

No, I don't believe that story is true - don't get me wrong.

But as a story, it is beautiful. An all-powerful God putting himself through all that pain and torture because he loves his 'children' so much. It's a lovely story, and I can see how it gives you hope and makes you feel better about the world.

And let me get something else clear - my objective isn't to just rip down the idea of this story for you.
There are SO many aspects of Christianity which in my view are GOOD and worthy of note.

MY objective is to stop Christians going up to homosexuals and telling them they have to repent for the 'sin' of being homosexual.

MY objective is to stop Christians going up to Hindu's, Muslims and Buddists and telling them they have to throw away their 'false' religion and join the only true one - Christianity.

These kind of actions are damaging. Christians disagree - of course they would.
Christ told them they can do this, so who am I?

The only way I can convey my viewpoint is to point out that maybe everything in the Bible isn't 'literal' truth. Maybe you are blindly following teachings which were never 'divine'...

Unfortunately, to get that viewpoint across, I end up having to upset people.
...but don't you think the kind of Christian actions I've just listed above are also causing 'upset'?!

btw - it's always interesting how some Christians can be so quick to 'rip down' the belief systems of other religions and cultures, and then get SO defensive and offended once their own is given a bit of rational inspection...

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Old 10-12-2003, 04:05 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
If there is no God, then why is there good in the world? ... If we are inherently good then why is there evil? If we are inherently evil then why is there good?
Concepts of "good" and "evil" are human constructs... most likely. Only humans think in terms of good and evil, but we apply it not only to ourselves but to other animate and inanimate objects. Black cats, bears who attack people who attempt to feed them, Bengal tigers that attack their handlers in front of thousands, and a myriad of natural and manmade objects that are deamed "evil" by various cultures (inluding christian cultures).

Typically, we observe what we perceive as an altruistic action, and assign a level of "goodness" to it, depending upon the level of altruism: a cub scout helping an old lady cross a street or a mother jumping in a freezing river to save her child where both perish. In this example you can plainly see which is more altruistic. However, I would argue that there are very, very few actual acts of altruism in nature... including in man.

The cub scout had an alterior motive: earn a badge. The mother had an alterior motive as well (albeit one that was most likely instinctive): perpetuate her genome. If her child dies, her DNA goes with it.

So, as you can see, there is only selfishness at work, even if some selfish behaviors are more preferable to others... say robbing a bank and killing the guard so you can take home the money.

The difference is that with homo sapiens sapies, a species of animal that is aware of the fact that it is self-aware, much more thinking occurs as to "why" things happen or occur. We need reasons. So when we observe someone in an apparently "selfless" act, we choose not to consider reciprocity or the instinct to promote our DNA by protecting our offspring. We say, "that's a good deed."

When we observe someone acting "selfishly" in order to get what they want, we call them "wrong," "selfish," and "evil." Depending on the level of selfishness. The bank robber might very well be trying to feed his family... or perhaps he is trying to buy nice things for himself. The latter reason would, theoretically, make him an attractive mate... so, again, he could further his own genome.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
You could say that you don't believe the human being is inherently good or evil, but then you have another problem. If what we do and what we think are a set of highly evolved instincts then why is there any sense of morality?
We are animals with instincts... I don't think many would disagree with that. But we also have the ability to choose courses of action beyond our instinct should societal norms and rules dictate. My instinct is to drive home as fast as possible after a long day at work... society says that I cannot drive faster than the posted limit.

In addition, many societal and cultural norms in the world have evolved as a direct means of ensuring the survival of the society or culture. So again... an example of "selfishness" within morality. A contemporary example might be laws against homicide. If people were to kill when they felt it benefited themselves or their family, entire cultures would be at risk... look at Israel / Palestine for evidence of this.

However... there are cultures, even today, that practice things like infanticide in order that their society might continue to flourish. The Yanomamo of the Amazon River Basin in S. America is an example of this. They have a protein deficiency among their people... too many people and the society cannot sustain itself. Too few hunters and the society cannot sustain itself. So as an answer, only a certain number of female infants are permitted to be born per year. This is considered to be moral and just by Yanomamo standards.


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Old 10-12-2003, 04:13 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
Is Satan omnipotent? No. Is Satan omnipresent? No. Is Satan omniscient?
Assuming that a "satan" exists (which I do not, btw), why wouldn't he be omnipotent? How can he/she/it do the things mentioned in the bible if he/she/it didn't have boundless supernatural power?

And if this being's supernatural powers are bounded, what are the boundaries? Can satan appear in my home? My job? How does satan tempt the righteous if he only has a cubicle in some depth of the Earth near the core?

The more I study christian mythology through the lens of a non-christian (something I was unable to do just over a decade ago), the more I see a huge web of symbology and metaphor that, over the centuries, has been taken as fact. As symbology and metaphor, christianity is a beautiful and fascinating mythology. As a literal fact, it is a deleterious belief system to non-christian cultures that have been, and will become, victims of extortion and exploitation in the world.


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Old 10-12-2003, 04:44 PM   #156
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SkinWalker,

Well said.

You've done a much better job of explaining 'good' and 'evil' as man-made concepts than I did
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Old 10-12-2003, 10:46 PM   #157
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GOOD LORD! COULD WE HAVE ANYMORE THREADS ON CHRISTIANITY?!?!


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Old 10-13-2003, 07:09 AM   #158
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Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
If there is no God, then why is there good in the world? Before you scoff at my question, think about it.
Ok I thought about it and it makes no sence that you said that at all? Hmm "there is good in the world so there has to be a god" you're saying?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
If we are inherently good then why is there evil? If we are inherently evil then why is there good?
Are you really reading what you type? Seriously are you? Nothing is inherently evil or good it's all based on your point of view. I'm sure a Muslim terrorist bombing a store doesn't think he is doing evil does he? Nope he thinks he is doing something good and just? Evil and Good depends on your own personal views and that of the culture you live in.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
You could say that you don't believe the human being is inherently good or evil, but then you have another problem. If what we do and what we think are a set of highly evolved instincts then why is there any sense of morality?
Where do you get this stuff? Next time separate it into paragraphs so it's easer for me to break down and rip apart. Morality for anyone I pretty much covered above. What's moral to you isn't moral to me. It all depends on the individual's point of view.

{Example (1)} From my point of view being a christian is immoral possibly even evil. It is against my heart and morals to be a christian.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
Also is it wise to automatically assume the existence of a loving God is an impossibility based on the suffering in the world?
Hmm so people make mistakes, get born in bad situations, and starve blah blah blah What does this have to do with god? That is just the nature of being human.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
You're judging the infinite with a finite mind. Here is an analogy I read. A hunter catches a bear in a bear trap. He feels compassion for the bear, and attempts to let him free. The man approaches, and the bear becomes hostile and won't let him get close enough to help. Why? The bear thinks the man is attacking him. The man then shoots the bear full of drugs so that he can help him, and the bear again, being shot, thinks he is still under attack. You would not expect a bear to understand the logic of the man, neither should you expect man to understand the logic of God. To say that there cannot be a loving God because of suffering is a close-minded statement. However, to say you don't understand what purpose the suffering has is a very legitimate statement.
The only thing infinite here is christian imagination. I love all the copouts that christians throw in the mix to justify unjustifiable things. No mater what the argument or statement of fact nothing in christianity needs proof not one thing. When bad things happen to me I don't blame god, because for (1) it doesn't exist. (2) I most likely did something stupid and got myself into the situation. (3) It was unstoppable. If I fined out I have cancer tomorrow. It has nothing to do with god or anything I did right or wrong. That's just the nature of things. Bad genetics, bad environment, or whatever it may be? Some things in life don't need to be justified you have to except them and move on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
God created the world, and it was good. There was no suffering, and there was no sin. God created man, and gave him a choice in whether or not he would follow Him. God wants man to love Him. The only way for there to be love is if there is a choice to hate, there cannot be love without choice. In this God created the possibility for sin. Satan wants to destroy God, but he canít. Instead he takes to destroying humans by tempting man into sin. Where does suffering come from? Sexual immorality, humans torturing other humans, hurtful things that people say-these are things that cause a form of suffering. These things are also considered sinful. Before you go accusing me of contradicting myself, please realize Iím trying to say that suffering is a product of sin, but not necessarily a punishment for sin. Iím not saying that torturing someone will cause you to have suffering, but that torturing someone causes suffering. I think people here are looking at it the wrong way. Here is an example, sexual immorality. He knows that in the world he created if you go having sex with every person you meet there is a good chance youíre going to be suffering, so he tells us not to. If you told a child not to touch the stove and they did it and got burnt, are their burnt fingers a punishment for not listening to their parents? I wouldnít think so.
Are all christians inherently masochistic? They are always telling about how sinful people are and how we needed to be punished. I read someone on this forum state that "a son is responsible for their father's sins" or something like that. If that is true all christians are going to hell. Christians have committed some really nasty atrocities in the past.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
I will openly admit to having a dependancy on Christ. However this is different from an alcoholics dependancy. If you had a good friend who helped you through troubled times, who was always there for you when you needed it, in a sense you depend upon that person. This is the dependancy that I have with Christ. And in another sense I depend upon Him in the arena of eternity.
So you are schizophrenic too? What ever gets you threw the day. By the way at the hospital I work at. We got a person in last night claiming to have been crucified and was Jesus "NO JOKE". Maybe it's your friend and you're not a schizophrenic? How about this? Ever thought about growing as a person and being independent or does the idea of truley being alone really scare the crap out of you?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
Once we sinned, God had a problem. The nature of an 'all powerful' being is that he cannot contradict himself. God cannot be in the presence of Sin. The payment for sin is death, not only mere physical death but also spiritual death. So what is God to do? He is a loving God, but at the same time He is a righteous God. His very nature destroys the sinful, but the people He loves are sinful. The answer? He sends His Son down in bodily form, and He goes around, spreading Godís Word. Satan sees this, and what a chance! God has put His only Son in Satanís domain-now Jesus has to play by his rules! Satan uses Pilot, Herod, and other political leaders to try and kill Him. With Herod he fails, but he ultimately triumphs-and oh what a triumph it was. Not only did he kill Him, but he did so in glorious fashion. Humiliation, suffering, a cry to his father, the works! Wait a minute, heís taking on the sins of the world, and in doing this anyone who asks can have forgiveness through him. Satan can no longer take souls with him to hell so easily, but who cares? Satan just killed the embodiment of God, who in their right mind would believe in a God who died at the hands of mortals, even if he was in bodily form. But to Satanís dismay Jesus visited hell for merely three days before breaking out resurrected affirming his deity. The righteousness of God was fulfilled with his sacrifice, and now the loving God is free to accept all who ask for forgiveness.
Is this a debate forum or Sunday School class? Might as well give up if you think your going to turn me with fairy tells and myth. You might have better lock scaring someone else with your stories, but I doubt it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
Also remember, before you comment, my logic should only be consider that of an alcoholic. I am unwise and irrational, for my faith blinds me from the truth. Be sure to use small words, for you wouldnít want to confuse an idiotic Christian bigot like myself. And if you cannot see this as utter sarcasm then you have no right to be posting here.
The first part is the only thing you have said that makes sense to bad you were being sarcastic.

I will continue comparing christians to similar things "like alcoholics." In this post I will compare them to a 5 year old kid. Allot of the things christians use to prove god exists are questions a 5yr old kid might ask their father.... Like the ones I was asked above.....

Daddy where did I come from, why am I here, and where am I going?.... Well son you came out of your mother one night. It was a real mess and she said she was never doing it again. Why are you here Hmm well the condom broke. :/ As far as where your going? To college I hope, but not if you keep asking people stupid questions instead of using common sence.

Humanity won't get out of kindergarten unless we throw away our religious back packs.

"Rainer511"
If you think I'm not takeing you serious you just might be right.
Here is a nice site for you to study so you can get to 1st grade in humanity.....
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/


-QUOTE------
Every cock fights best on his own dunghill.

Last edited by Cosmos Jack; 10-13-2003 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 10-13-2003, 12:54 PM   #159
shukrallah
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You know, i talked to this guy the other day, and he was reading a book about the 4th demension. Anyways, he was talking about how a person in the 4th demension could (we were eating lunch at the time) could take my milk carton thingy and remove the milk, and the carton could be untouched. So i got to thinking (i know something like this has been said before) anyways, i thought MAYBE thats heaven? I mean, Maybe just God has that power.... i mean, that would be a good explanation of things in the bible.

Quote:
GOOD LORD! COULD WE HAVE ANYMORE THREADS ON CHRISTIANITY?!?!
lol, this most likley wont be last It never ends....
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Old 10-13-2003, 01:11 PM   #160
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When parents say to their children that they don't know anything cos they are so young, children would never admitt that. they would disagree. They would try to argue with them only later understanding how right their parents were. Partly and in a bit different form the problem is presented on this debate, I guess.

I'd like to test it so I would like everyone here to post his age and his position, whether he's christian or agnostic or whatever. I know the age of almost everyone here, it's just I want everyone to see it.

P.S. I'm 20 and I'm something not too far from agnostic.
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