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Old 10-13-2003, 01:24 PM   #161
CloseTheBlastDo
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Old 10-13-2003, 02:18 PM   #162
weiderudare
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Position: I don't belive in God. Atheist.(Its something like that right?)


My view of God.
God is of course something created by mankind itself, in our goal to find security.
The human can't handle the fact that we are in fact, alone and no one will never know about us. There are no one who watches over us and knows that we exists.
That's the reason God was "Created"
There is no God, just face it.

The most interesting is, as that the evidences against God raises, the number of belivers drops.
Instead, the number of UFO sigthings has raised. Especially in USA, where there are many belivers.

UFO is like a new religion. People worshiping the aliens, once again sure that we are not alone, there are someone who knows that we exists. And that makes us calm.
Think about it would you?


You can't say that civilization isn't in progress, because in every war, they kill you in a new way
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Old 10-13-2003, 02:32 PM   #163
El Sitherino
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Belief: Agnostic buddhist.

I don't really know what to believe, I read all the books about god being just and kind and what have you, just sometimes, things happen that make that seem a lie. Not to mention just some personal observations I make about the world around me that makes it seem as though if there was a god the entity itself is unperfect. I would like to believe there is an afterlife also, after having lost many people close to me, but I just find it hard. When I hang out with my friends, whom are all different religions, we talk about our beliefs, but we do it where it doesn't get personal, because we don't force our thoughts on eachother. anyway, I was brought up in a very liberal household, I was raised Liberal Lutheran, I lost one of my best friends at the age of 7, just a year after I lost my opa.

I still hold views and morals of tolerance and kindness towards others, many of all the buddhist beliefs.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
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Old 10-13-2003, 03:04 PM   #164
CloseTheBlastDo
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Of all religious outlooks, I personally find Buddism to be the most appealing to me. Not to say I believe it, or follow it, but hypothetically, if I - for some reason - HAD to follow a religion, it would be Buddism.

(It is also interesting to note that you can find many parallels between Buddist teachings and the teachings of Christ. This is especially evident when noting the differences between Christian teachings and Judaism.
In fact, I'm very confident that Jesus was influenced by Buddism in some way, but I won't go to much further into that - I've already push things too far as it is! )

Buddists, from what i know, have the least bloody history. They are also overall the most tolerent of other beliefs and customs.
And I find buddist teachings to be the most enlightening and morally pure overall when compared to other religions.

I particularly find the notion of sending good-natured, practicing Buddists to hell particularly non-sensical and ridiculous. This is not to say that sending good-natured people from other religions to hell is any less 'crazy', but somehow Buddists seem to emphasise this point for me.

The last thing on a (typical) Buddists mind is to harm another being in any way - under any circumstances, or inflict their belief system and culture onto others. And yet they are destined to have their skin eternally burnt from their bodies in hell...?!

Sorry - just don't buy it!
Or even if it's true, I would rather burn with the Buddists than spend 2 seconds in the presense of a God who would allow such injustice and stupidity to be possible...
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Old 10-13-2003, 03:53 PM   #165
Master_Keralys
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Somewhere between childhood and adulthood. Well enough read to know the difference between fantasy and reality, with enough friends who have turned away to see why. Still a Christian.

Question: Just because you can't understand something, does that make it less real? For example, we didn't understand stars for most of history. We didn't understand on a molecular level why people die of cancer for most of time. That didn't mean they didn't work. Now, I am admitting that God is a different issue, beyond science (for there is a definitive line between science and theology). However, I still wish to ask: Just because you can't understand God or his plans, does that make him less a reality?

Think of a massive tapesty. Think of the back of a tapesty. If anyone here has ever seen it, it's flat out ugly. It has to be; to attain the beauty of the front requires complexity that by definition would ruin the appearance of the front.

That's called life. But with the assumption that the Bible is true in its account of creation (I'm not saying it is or isn't, this isn't that debate), the mess we're in is not God's fault. It's ours. Anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about can go read the account of the fall of man in Genesis. So quit whining about that making God fallible. It doesn't. It makes us fallible. And don't argue with my logic, I stated at the beginning the assumption operated on; many of you will not agree with that assumption, but that's all you can disagree with about that statement.


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Old 10-13-2003, 04:40 PM   #166
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Master_Keralys,

I have no problem discussing Christian teachings within the 'theoretical' domain...

..so yes, ASSUMING that the Bible is the Word Of God etc...

...things went wrong at the time Eve was tempted by Satan, Eve convinced Adam to partake of the Tree Of Knowledge which meant God had to banish Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden etc. etc....

fine.

But what the HELL does that have to do with - for example - modern-day Buddists who are only living the way they were taught to live...?

In the end, all the technicalities Christians like to bring up, like the basic sinful nature of man, the blood sacrifice of Christ being the only way to overcome that blah blah blah are just that - technicalities! They don't overcome the sheer, blatent unfairness of the situation.

...and believe me, half-arsed analogies about tapestries don't cut it!!

Please accept that people of other faiths are no different to you in the sense that they are just living what they have been taught, in the same way that YOU live the way that Christianity teaches YOU to live.

If you approach a Buddist and say 'You need to believe in Christianity', they would have no desire to 'bash' your beliefs, but many - in fact MOST - will repsectfully tell you that they are happy and content with their own beliefs.

It is actually quite unlikely a Buddist is going to approach a Christian and tell you 'You have to become a Buddist', because their beliefs don't involve converting the whole world to Buddism.
But, theoretically, if they did - would you suddenly just give up your beliefs and become a Buddist?!

...exactly! So accept that without the Buddist having 'ultimate' knowledge somehow FORCED upon their brain, they are just as 'right' in rejecting 'Christianity' as you are of rejecting 'Buddism'.

So in the end, Buddists, or good people from other religions who do not convert to Christianity - eventually only go to hell because they somehow did not have the 'insight' to realise the things they were taught from day 1 were somehow less true than the things you were taught from day 1.

Christianity being the only way to heaven is kind of like being in a test with - say - 10 different question papers. Before you even get to answer any of the questions, you have to decide WHICH paper is the one you should be working by in the first place.
If you - by sheer bad luck - choose the wrong paper to answer, then in the end it doesn't matter how well you answer the questions (i.e. how good a life you lead), in the end the examiner says:

'What a shame, you answered the questions very well, but unfortunately you chose the wrong question sheet'.

The examinee might reply : 'But, how was I suppost to know WHICH paper was actually the correct one? Sure, there were a load of people saying the Christian paper was the right one, but all the poeple that i knew were telling me the Buddist paper was the one I was suppost to be answering...'

The examiner shrugs his shoulders and says 'Sorry son, that's just the way it is. If your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather hadn't have pissed me off, things could have been fairer - but, this is the way the cookie crumbles my lad!'

THe examinee - being a Buddist - would probably ironically try and see the best in the situation. 'Oh well, at least those nice Christians were lucky and got into heaven'.

The examiner smiles 'Ahh - that's nice of you' - he said, just before he pulls the trapdoor lever...


In the end, you can try and explain all the 'technicalities' behind the idea that people from other religions NEED to go to hell, but honestly, you may as well save your breath.

If God does not have the power to make the entry into heaven 'FAIR', then I can hardly think of him as omnipotent. He's at best a demi-god in my eyes...

Or maybe you would like to propose it only seems unfair to my limited mortal mind. Perhaps from God's point of view that seems perfectly fair...

...maybe you have a point. From my view, ants are just little dots. As long as they don't bother me, I don't bother them. However, iIf they start trapsing around my flat (though no fault of their own mind - they are just following their instincts), I don't hesitate in poisoning them.

...maybe Buddists have no more meaning to biblical god than ants do to me...

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Old 10-13-2003, 10:33 PM   #167
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Belief: Scientific Pantheist

Scientific Pantheist isn't exactly how I feel, but it is closer to it than anything else.

I'm also know as a Evil Devil Pagan, heathen, sinner, and supporter of small woodland creatures all over the world. I'll stop on the road pick up a turtle before I'll stop to pick up a christian.

Christianity has always puzzled me. I remember being real young and telling my mother "it doesn't make any sense. Why do people think that way?" She didn't have an answer.

So as I got older and had to deal with them more and more. I read about their history and all the wonderful things christians have done. All the wonderful things they are doing now. I made my own answer and it's not pretty.


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Old 10-13-2003, 11:56 PM   #168
ShockV1.89
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Agnostic

Mostly because I think going in either extreme is not wise... most religious people I know barely take the time to learn about their own religion, and when they do, they learn from biased sources (pastors, etc).

And atheists, I believe, are foolish in thinking themselves so knowledgable that they can come to a solid conclusion that there is no supreme being out there. There may very well be one, be it Christian or Muslim, or whatever. Maybe it hasnt even presented itself to anyone. But if it is that supreme and doesnt wish to be contacted, for whatever reason, then there's no way we're going to know about it.

Me, I simply take the middle ground and say: "I dont know. I can't know. I wont pretend to know. I'm not going to say that I know for the sake of eternal salvation, because in my heart of hearts, I still am not sure, and probably never will be. When I die and find out, I'll make up my mind, and if there is a God, he/she/it will know as well as I do that, according to how I was made as a human being, this is the only way it could be, and I dont think I would be punished for it. But until then, I don't know."


"Not all one pleads can be granted. But a good hearing soothes the heart." -The Instruction of Ptah-hotep.

"So here I go, it's my shot. Feet fail me not. This may be the only opportunity that I got..." -Eminem
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:38 AM   #169
shukrallah
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Quote:
It's not like the christians buring people didn't know they were doing wrong or when they were comenting genocide on the Native Amerians?
True, they knew right from wrong, but they chose wrong. Let God deal with them. Ive thought about it, and they comitted several sins, but who am i to judge them?

*****


When i post, im talking about people in general (lets get that straight) Im talking about you (unless i make a reference to you) Im not talking about your loved ones, or friends, or just people around you. It would be impossible for me to make examples for every situation, because there are just to many. I still believe things happen for a reason, whether good or bad. Bad things can turn out good, whether you see it or not.

Quote:
The examinee might reply : 'But, how was I suppost to know WHICH paper was actually the correct one? Sure, there were a load of people saying the Christian paper was the right one, but all the poeple that i knew were telling me the Buddist paper was the one I was suppost to be answering...'
The way to know is the bible (of course, if you dont believe, or have never read it, then i dont know. And if you dont believe, or have any intentions on being a christian, why would you except for pleasure reading?) When i say pleasure reading, i dont mean making jokes etc.... i mean, like you would watch a movie, or just an everyday book.


Quote:
Mostly because I think going in either extreme is not wise... most religious people I know barely take the time to learn about their own religion, and when they do, they learn from biased sources (pastors, etc).
Of course, talk to a paster, it sounds awesome, talk to someone who doesnt believe it, it may or may not sound good, it just depends on the person. They might not know anything about it, or they may know a lot about it, and they can form there own interpretation. Anyways, the history (in my opinion) doesnt matter, a whole lot. You see, the rest of the christians are not responsible for how other christians live there lives, or what they do. Its not our fault, its not God's fault, or the religions. Its the individuals who do the wrong doings that are at fault. As for christians, the history that is needed is the bible. It doesnt matter what other people have done. Im sure athiests or other people have done wrong things, even buddhists. They are human, humans sin... or do wrong doings. If you go about it like that, then whats the point of anything, because every system is corrupted by the sins of a few people.

Quote:
If God does not have the power to make the entry into heaven 'FAIR', then I can hardly think of him as omnipotent. He's at best a demi-god in my eyes...
Dont look at this from your perspective, if God is real, then look at it like this, its his "place" He lets in who he wants and who he doesnt want. If knocked on your door tonight would you let me in? I dont know..... but anyways, not saying you have, but there are people who have said bad things about God, that no person would want to be called, or had been said about. If God is real, why would he allow them in? Forget about the rest, just think about that really fast. Of course i know the you were talking about buddhists, but im talking about people in general.


BTW:

age: 15

Christian (raised... God was mentioned, but not really thought about. You know, the people who say they believe in God, but really dont care about it.... truthfully, i hadnt even heard about christianity!)
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Old 10-14-2003, 03:17 AM   #170
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
True, they knew right from wrong, but they chose wrong. Let God deal with them. Ive thought about it, and they comitted several sins, but who am i to judge them?
Posted at a pantheist web site...
"The God of Christianity can forgive a lifetime of destructive egotism even on the deathbed. The tribunal of descendants, and of the natural world, will not."

These people will always be remembered for who they were. They are dead and can do nothing to reverse their actions even if they wanted. The only punishment they are able to get is the judgment their descendents pass on them.. We are our own judge, jury, and executioners.

There is no higher power waiting for us when we die to send us to hell or whatever.. If we don't keep ourselves in check nobody will. Fear and idealizing in false gods doesn't last..

Quote:
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
And atheists, I believe, are foolish in thinking themselves so knowledgable that they can come to a solid conclusion that there is no supreme being out there.
You know once I had a christian tell me "You should believe in god, because it is better to be safe than sorry." Are you one of the types that don't want to take to one side or the other, because you mined tells you one thing, but you're afraid to be wrong?

There was time when people didn't know why it rained. They didn't know why the wind blew or what it really was. They didn't know why they were here or why they died? This was all answered by personifying human ideas into a higher power. "If we don't know there has to be something smarter and more powerful that does." All cultures invented gods to answer their questions for them.. The odd thing is they answered their own questions. Most answers were wrong, but they were answers..

We know allot of the answers now.. We still don't know why we are here. My idea is there is no reason why we are here and it doesn't matter, because not everything needs a justifiable reason or has one. "Except it and move on." I make my own purpose in life. There is no god that did it for me before I was born.

I believe anyone that thinks we are special or above all life is foolish and arrogant. If any of you need to think you're a Oscar Myer wiener when you wake up in the morning have at it. Think you are special. People are nothing but hairless talking apes with delusions of grandeur.


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Old 10-14-2003, 06:04 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Dont look at this from your perspective, if God is real, then look at it like this, its his "place" He lets in who he wants and who he doesnt want. If knocked on your door tonight would you let me in? I dont know..... but anyways, not saying you have, but there are people who have said bad things about God, that no person would want to be called, or had been said about. If God is real, why would he allow them in? Forget about the rest, just think about that really fast. Of course i know the you were talking about buddhists, but im talking about people in general.
It's entirely different. It's like creating a child and kicking him out on his own. Except even worse. There's a difference between letting a stranger in, and letting your OWN CHILD(Which we are to God, according to the Bible) in.

Also, I like to ask something. What exactly are "we" to God? Jesus has been considered his only son, so what does that make us? Illegitimate children? Pets? Test Subjects?



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Old 10-14-2003, 06:56 AM   #172
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The way to know is the bible (of course, if you dont believe, or have never read it, then i dont know. And if you dont believe, or have any intentions on being a christian, why would you except for pleasure reading?) When i say pleasure reading, i dont mean making jokes etc.... i mean, like you would watch a movie, or just an everyday book.
Luke,

Believe whatever you like. It doesn't bother me anymore. And I'm not interested in arguing with you anymore.

To you, I am hopelessly blasphemous, and am therefore blinded to the TRUTH.
To me, you are hopelessly irrational and therefore, are blinded to the TRUTH.
In this situation, conversation is useless...

It's nothing personal, I just don't hold conversations with irrational people. If I wanted to do that, I'd go visit my local mental hospital for a chin-wag.
(..you know, where all the sexual sinners are kept!)

You've totally missed the point of my last post. I mean, you haven't just disagreed, or tried to counter - the points I've made have just completely flown straight over your head.

You simply cannot concieve of the idea that to people of other religions (or no religion), the Bible IS JUST A BOOK, nothing more. (The same way the Koran, or the Gita is just another book to you)
And more importantly, these people are not evil and DO NOT deserve an eternity of torture -they just have minds and hearts of their own, just like you have - it's that bloody simple.

I DON'T CARE if you believe it or even HAVE THE ABILITY to see it - it's a point that has the right to be debated, and yet you won't even engage on the topic, because the very TOPIC ITSELF offends your faith.

The bottom line is your getting out of your depth here...

You want to believe in the Bible, and Christianity? Fine - go right ahead. Just please don't pretend to get involved in supposedly 'rational' debates and then debate in an irrational manner. It's a complete waste of everybody's time.

...I for one am not going to spend my precious time sending back logical counter-points to your arguments which I know are falling on deaf, irrational ears.

There are others on this board who I hope can engage me rationally, but your not one of them I'm afraid...

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Old 10-14-2003, 11:41 AM   #173
ShockV1.89
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Of course, talk to a paster, it sounds awesome, talk to someone who doesnt believe it, it may or may not sound good, it just depends on the person. They might not know anything about it, or they may know a lot about it, and they can form there own interpretation. Anyways, the history (in my opinion) doesnt matter, a whole lot. You see, the rest of the christians are not responsible for how other christians live there lives, or what they do. Its not our fault, its not God's fault, or the religions. Its the individuals who do the wrong doings that are at fault. As for christians, the history that is needed is the bible. It doesnt matter what other people have done. Im sure athiests or other people have done wrong things, even buddhists. They are human, humans sin... or do wrong doings. If you go about it like that, then whats the point of anything, because every system is corrupted by the sins of a few people.

I'm not saying that the history of christianity has anything to do with it. You're right, modern christians have nothing to do with ancient christians massive crimes against humanity.

What I'm saying is that few people can come up with a more convicincing reason to be Christian than "Because the bible says so." The entire religion is based around a book that I just dont trust.

Although in truth, my post was aimed at all religions, not just Christianity. There's just too much going against religion, in general, for me to believe without a doubt that there is a God or that he/she/it is involved in our lives.

Cosmos Jack, it's not a matter of me being afraid of being wrong. It's just that I don't know if there is a God or not. My mind is not telling me one thing and I'm afraid of it, because my mind has not made up its mind. Trust me, I wish it was just me being afraid of being wrong. But I'm not going to make up my mind on this until I know for sure.


"Not all one pleads can be granted. But a good hearing soothes the heart." -The Instruction of Ptah-hotep.

"So here I go, it's my shot. Feet fail me not. This may be the only opportunity that I got..." -Eminem
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Old 10-14-2003, 12:33 PM   #174
shukrallah
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You've totally missed the point of my last post. I mean, you haven't just disagreed, or tried to counter - the points I've made have just completely flown straight over your head.

You simply cannot concieve of the idea that to people of other religions (or no religion), the Bible IS JUST A BOOK, nothing more. (The same way the Koran, or the Gita is just another book to you)
And more importantly, these people are not evil and DO NOT deserve an eternity of torture -they just have minds and hearts of their own, just like you have - it's that bloody simple.

I understood what you were saying. Must i say "I understood it" for you to know...?

Quote:
To you, I am hopelessly blasphemous, and am therefore blinded to the TRUTH.
To me, you are hopelessly irrational and therefore, are blinded to the TRUTH.
In this situation, conversation is useless...
Lets just get this into the open, how many people would actually change? Other people here have said they wont turn to christianity, but i still talk to them. Id say your being irrational by "ignoring" people who dont think the way you do. In fact, id say your not up to the challenge of turning me from my "ignorant" ways, so your giving up.




The point of the debate is to convince the other person your right. All the evidence you have shown is something id just simply have to take YOUR word for. Im not saying its wrong, but still. The same with me, if you did decide to change, it would be based on "evidence" that ive shown, but the problem is, you wouldnt know it to be true, you would have to take my word for it.


And dont forget, the debate is being talked as if God is real, Not if he isnt.


Quote:
You simply cannot concieve of the idea that to people of other religions (or no religion), the Bible IS JUST A BOOK, nothing more. (The same way the Koran, or the Gita is just another book to you)
And more importantly, these people are not evil and DO NOT deserve an eternity of torture -they just have minds and hearts of their own, just like you have - it's that bloody simple.

I DON'T CARE if you believe it or even HAVE THE ABILITY to see it - it's a point that has the right to be debated, and yet you won't even engage on the topic, because the very TOPIC ITSELF offends your faith.
I see it, but your not God, you dont make the rules. And hey, you dont believe in God, so it doesnt affect you. What do you have to fear, or the buddhists? They dont believe it.


Quote:
Also, I like to ask something. What exactly are "we" to God? Jesus has been considered his only son, so what does that make us? Illegitimate children? Pets? Test Subjects?
Interesting... I wish I knew the answere... 1 thing i know is, he ment to create us... (this is assuming he is real) So were not illegitimate children. Pets, i doubt that, just because if were pets, i doubt God would have put up with us for this long. Test subjects, i dont know... Tough question. Im not God, how should i know?
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:04 PM   #175
CloseTheBlastDo
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This is my final reply to you Luke.
I will need to wait for rational people to reply before I will rejoin the debate.

I'm still willing to discuss Christianity with many people on this board. Rainer511 and Kurgan are obvious examples.

Maybe you beleive Kurgan isn't as 'fundamental' as you would like, but Rainer511, from what I can tell - has just as firm beliefs as you do.

The difference is, Rainer511 is still willing to hold a rational discussion - you are not.

Get in your head Luke - it's not Christianity I'm not willing to discuss, I just don't discuss anything of a vaguely serious nature with irrational people.
That in itself would be an irrational act.

I have no interest in trying to convincing you of anything. my only interest is in the truth.
I actually think it's best you just stay in your imaginary world, where the Bible is unquestionable, and sexual sinners are loonies.

Anytime I bring up rational arguments to you, I feel like I'm about to make a 5-year old cry by trying to tell them there isn't a Santa Claus...

If it makes you feel better to think I have given up in 'convincing' you, then you can do, because you are right.
...I think I'd have more of a chance of teaching algebra to a chimpanzee.

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Old 10-14-2003, 01:48 PM   #176
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Okey, that'll do. My point is not actually mine, it was posted many times by Skin. But some people are better at understanding pictures rather than words. This is not a bashing post, just an observation

Christians + Religious here:

lukeskywalker1
age: 15
Christian (raised... God was mentioned, but not really thought about. You know, the people who say they believe in God, but really dont care about it.... truthfully, i hadnt even heard about christianity!)

Master_Keralys
Somewhere between childhood and adulthood. Well enough read to know the difference between fantasy and reality, with enough friends who have turned away to see why. Still a Christian.

Rainer511
Please edit here if you like

Cosmos Jack
Age: 24
Belief: Scientific Pantheist

Non-religious here:

ShockV1.89
Age: 22
Agnostic

InsaneSith
Age:16
Belief: Agnostic buddhist. (I guess we can interpret it as philosophy instead of religion)

weiderudare
Age: 15
Position: I don't believe in God. Atheist.(Its something like that right?)

[/b]CloseTheBlastDo[/b]
Age: 29
Viewpoint: Agnostic (was bought up with 'Christian' beliefs)

SkinWalker
age: 37!!! ( I wanted to post your true age of 57, but noone would believe it )
Agnostic


Tyrion
age: probably old
Edit here if you like

Homuncul
age: 241
Not really anything

As the topic of this thread is christianity I would not take in consideration whether non-religious people here know what they say.

Many young people don't listen to what more experienced people say to them. There are many reasons for that. One is the psychological state of opposition to everyone followed by conviction in anachronistic thinking of all old guys (and they're probably right somewhere but not everywhere). There isn't much opposition from the other barricade - this is what these "younglings" must understand. Mostly those old guys have good intentions, it's something like your parents not wanting you to do the same mistakes they did.

There is axiom of life. People must learn from other people's mistakes, instead of making them themselves. Unfortunately this axiom is never used in practice... There are many experienced people on these forums, who are more than ready to help. They have knowledge and experience in many things inside and outside our topic. Christians here also say quite often that one has to "believe" to be able to understand them. Most of non-religious people I mentioned, including me know what it is to believe, just the way you do. Most of them had walked your way. They understand why you think the way you think. Furthermore they know what to do to fix it (I'm not against belief here, everyone believe: for instance I believe in god).

I can give you an example here. You may believe it or do what ever you want with this. Studying a martial art I always incounter a problem of feeling I'm doing the right thing. I do a simple technique and sometimes I can't say whether I'm making it right (mostly I feel I'm doing it wrong). My sensei says to me where I'm wrong and sometimes he says that my movement looks right and that he can't say whether it is wrong. Recently I practiced a simple technique with him. And every time I did it wrong he didn't let me do it. It was 1 of 10 times that I managed to feel I was doing it right and only this only time he let me do it. After doing it right I couldn't do it again for a long time. He also said at the end of practice something that I was ready to hear by that time. He said: " The process of learning a technique is a process of finding those states of mind when you know the technique is right. You 'll find it hard to believe unless you try that path first." His explanations of principles of a martial art never change. But the way words start to have totally different meaning in one's mind was a revelation for me lately.

I'm not sure if it's going to work, but I guess no christianity disputing is working anymore. Now review the list of people with whom you're debating and try to be rational. Also try to listen and think on what more experienced people tell you. Maybe you'll be smarter than they were (I hope none of them would offend here, if so I appologize).

Last edited by Homuncul; 10-16-2003 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 10-14-2003, 02:34 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
SkinWalker
age: 34 ( I wanted to post your true age of 57, but noone would believe it )
Agnostic
Actually I'm 37....

And though I'm agnostic, I'm probably more spiritual than most christians.


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Old 10-14-2003, 06:24 PM   #178
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Originally posted by Homuncul
Belief: Scientific Pantheist (accepted as a philosophical doctrine, not religious belief)
Hmm I'm not refuting your classification of pantheism. One of the reasons I look to this as a example of how I think is, because of it's more based on facts and tangible knowledge than beliefs. There is nothing in pantheism to belief in. Everything is right there in front of you.

What makes a religion a religion? The belief in a god or the path in life it instructs you to follow. Most religions have gods and all ideal systems have a path to follow "a prescribed way to live your life." So if it doesn't have a god is it just philosophical doctrine?

The pantheist god would be the universe as a hole. It's not a omnipotent being, it isn't all knowing, and all seeing; however, I would say it is all powerful and deserves our understanding and respect. I would say the same feeling a christian has for god is similar to the feeling I have for the world around me. Except I'm not preying to it, I'm not afraid of it, and when I die I don't believe it's rewording me or punishing me. The only after life I have is how the people around me remember me and what I leave behind.

People should spend less time worrying about what will happen to them when they die and more time worrying about the impact they make on other people. "I can't say I have done a good job on here though."

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Many young people don't listen to what more experienced people say to them.
There is only 2 old people here... well one old person 29 and one elderly person 37 Hm Hmm


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Old 10-14-2003, 06:44 PM   #179
shukrallah
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And though I'm agnostic, I'm probably more spiritual than most christians.
What do you mean?




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Get in your head Luke - it's not Christianity I'm not willing to discuss, I just don't discuss anything of a vaguely serious nature with irrational people.


Rational is to understand. I understand what your saying.

Quote:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

1 a : having reason or understanding b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : REASONABLE <a rational explanation> <rational behavior>
Based on this, i understand what your saying. Agreeable to reason, that depends...

reason is:

Quote:

1 a : a statement offered in explanation or justification <gave reasons that were quite satisfactory> b : a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action> d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : CAUSE <the reason for earthquakes> <the real reason why he wanted me to stay -- Graham Greene>

True, you have offered "evidence" Ive accepted some, but not all. But then again, the bible is evidence, and rational... it has reasons (maybe not for all things) but thats like saying you know why we are here. I mean, if we evolved from single celled organisms over a period of time, then there is no given reason why we are. So why should the bible give a reason for everything?

It also depends whats reasonable for each individual. Whats a reasonable thing to me, may not be for you. Its perspective.


err... if that didnt make sense, then... idk.

out of time, ill possibly check back with this when i get home.
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:25 PM   #180
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Homuncul, forgetting someone, arent we..?

Anyway, back to formally disagreeing(otherwise known as bashing).

Quote:
True, you have offered "evidence" Ive accepted some, but not all. But then again, the bible is evidence, and rational... it has reasons (maybe not for all things) but thats like saying you know why we are here. I mean, if we evolved from single celled organisms over a period of time, then there is no given reason why we are. So why should the bible give a reason for everything?
The Bible is not evidence. Well, very poor evidence. All it is, is a book. No matter what is in there, it's just a book. A man-written book. Passed through centuries(and even a few times where it was probably re-written to favor a king or pope).

The reason the bible should be giving a reason for everything, is because it's the only thing Christians have to tell about God. You cant see God, you cant hear him, you dont have any other "proof" besides the bible. Which leads to circular reasoning.



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Old 10-15-2003, 12:09 AM   #181
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I know its not perfect evidence. But then again, no one knows if it was rewritten. I know, back a few hundred years ago, the king of england wanted a divorse, (this was said) but anyways, so he had something to do with this or that in the bible. Now as to if it was rewritten, i dont know, because it still says if you divorce, and remarry its adulatary. If the king did change it, he probably would have had the adultery part removed...
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Old 10-15-2003, 01:45 AM   #182
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I don't know if this has been mentioned before. Has anyone ever noticed that god was really busy back then. He was always talking to people telling them what to do and demonstrating his power countless times in the bible.

Ever since the death of Christ there has been no tangible influence by god. The god in the bible was always stirring up a pot of trouble doing things. The god of today does absolutely nothing tangible. He doesn't do the flood thing, he doesn't talk to anyone, and he stopped turning homosexuals into stone.

If he was going to turn a city into stone today for the same sins as Sodom and Gomorrah? Then all of the big cities in the world would be stone..

Why all of a sudden did god stop messing with us did he get board?
Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way...

Take into account I don't believe Christ had anything to do with any god and I don't think anything was ever done by god that was recorded in the bible... I'm just asking a question?


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Old 10-15-2003, 03:55 AM   #183
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Quote:
Cosmos Jack:
What makes a religion a religion?
Optionally anything of this:
Faith in supernatural
Faith in double-world
Rituals
World-view

The extreme point of pantheism is religious belief in God as a whole universe. Philosophically speaking it's not too far from say recognizing nature as the most important thing in the universe.

Quote:
So if it doesn't have a god is it just philosophical doctrine?(tangibly)
Exactly.

When we're speaking of god, we mean a supernatural entity that brings sense to our lives. But this is only a simplification of our perfect morals (which were the only way for our society to survive and not fall apart) characterized by such abstractions as: good/evil, purpose, justice, truth/falsehood, loyalty, love. These characteristics are never presented perfectly in practice, like we can't tell some action to be totally bad when someone does a bad thing with good intentions, or lies to save someone's life. The try to find the perfect vision of those things was God. That is my belief. That doesn't spoil it, I'm believer. And that's my philosophy for now, not religion
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Old 10-15-2003, 04:36 AM   #184
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Get in your head Luke - it's not Christianity I'm not willing to discuss, I just don't discuss anything of a vaguely serious nature with irrational people.
That in itself would be an irrational act.

I have no interest in trying to convincing you of anything. my only interest is in the truth.
I actually think it's best you just stay in your imaginary world, where the Bible is unquestionable, and sexual sinners are loonies.

Anytime I bring up rational arguments to you, I feel like I'm about to make a 5-year old cry by trying to tell them there isn't a Santa Claus...

If it makes you feel better to think I have given up in 'convincing' you, then you can do, because you are right.
...I think I'd have more of a chance of teaching algebra to a chimpanzee.
Wow, that's a serius PissedOffBlastDo
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Old 10-15-2003, 08:43 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Optionally anything of this:
Faith in supernatural
Faith in double-world
Rituals
World-view
Any of those 4 things, because pantheism definitely has a world view.. Personally I think your view of religion is one sided and your definition..
I like the 4th one down on here....
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=religion

(4)A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion... Pantheism is just that...

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
The extreme point of pantheism is religious belief in God as a whole universe.
?

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Philosophically speaking it's not too far from say recognizing nature as the most important thing in the universe.
Not just philosophically speaking. That is pantheism except you have nature separate from the universe. They are one in the same..

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul

Exactly.

When we're speaking of god, we mean a supernatural entity that brings sense to our lives.
Not exactly no, because that is your definition of god. God can be many things other than a omnipotent being.. God to me may be nature, but I don't see nature as a all knowing creator. It doesn't have a mined or intelligence there is no heaven or hell. Nature is; however, a creator of all life and it brings sence to my life. Do I worship it? Not really. Do I respect it? Yes..


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Old 10-15-2003, 02:55 PM   #186
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Interesting

I find it very interesting that on a thread about Christianity, there's only three Christians posting (maybe four). Now, doesn't this seem rather ironic. Perhaps the skewed view of this thread is because it's not balanced. Not making excuses, but it would be nice to have a balanced thread.

Anyway... :evil:

The Bible has not been rewritten to fit people's ideas. It may have happened in select circumstances, but what we have today is what they had when it was written. Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls, anyone? Those have been shown to have been written well within 100 years of Christ's death and resurrection. Moreover, we have over five thousand early copies of the Gospels alone, the only differences being in a word or phrase here or there. All written by the end of the first century AD. Another fifteen thousand or so copies of the letters of the New Testament. It has not changed in almost 2000 years . It is the same as it was then.

Also, technically speaking, Homuncul's definition of religion qualifies atheism as a religion. Just a thought.


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Old 10-15-2003, 03:07 PM   #187
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The Bible has not been rewritten to fit people's ideas. It may have happened in select circumstances, but what we have today is what they had when it was written. Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls, anyone? Those have been shown to have been written well within 100 years of Christ's death and resurrection. Moreover, we have over five thousand early copies of the Gospels alone, the only differences being in a word or phrase here or there. All written by the end of the first century AD. Another fifteen thousand or so copies of the letters of the New Testament. It has not changed in almost 2000 years . It is the same as it was then.

Also, technically speaking, Homuncul's definition of religion qualifies atheism as a religion. Just a thought.
I agree.

While I'm fairly certain the gospels have been 'altered' at some point, the alterations were made relativly early, and were not 'sweeping'. As you say, the odd word here or there etc.

If you look back at my posts, you will find this has been my view from the beginning.

And as you rightly point out, the Dead Sea Scrolls are perfectly valid evidence. Although as far as I remember, the Dead Sea Scrolls were all Old Testament documents - right? Or at least from that time period...
I don't think they bear any relavence to the authenticity of New Testament documents do they...?

(Although it's very possible I'm mistaken about that - haven't looked into them for a while. If you have the information to hand, and I'm mistaken, please feel free to correct me.)


In any case, the argument of whether the gospels have been 'altered' is not central to my viewpoint of Christianity in any way, shape or form -as I've made clear before in previous posts.

As to the inbalance of christians vs. non-christians, that's not really anybody's fault - that's just the way it's turned out...
I agree, it would be a more balanced argument with more Christians to debate against...
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Old 10-15-2003, 03:26 PM   #188
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I think you may be right about the DSS. My point remains.

I wasn't slamming on your views in particular, either, CTBD. YOu have been fairly rational for most of the debate (except for a couple of hideous slams on Luke ). I was trying to make the point that as far as reliability goes, we've got it. If you go back and look at it, the Bible is far more reliable than the few scattered texts referring to guys like Plato or Aristotle. To me it seems like many people don't go for Chrisitanity because (1) it's a tough life to life and (2) it doesn't always line up with people's preconceived notions of what a loving God ought to be.

On that note, I would like to make a point. I'm sure everyone here was disciplined as a small child, probably harshly at some points. Now, did you like that? Probably not. Did it help you to do the right thing (or at least that which your parents required of you)? Yes. So just because something isn't to your pleasure or satisfaction doesn't mean its not good for you. That's a mistaken notion of our postmodern Christian culture. Again, just a thought for consideration...


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Old 10-15-2003, 03:57 PM   #189
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I wasn't slamming on your views in particular, either, CTBD. YOu have been fairly rational for most of the debate (except for a couple of hideous slams on Luke ).
The slams on Luke are not so much an indicator of my rationality, as much as an indication of my temperment and patience. I admit I can lose patience sometimes.

...but I believe my implication that Luke implicitly and fully self-admittedly has irrational thought processes when it comes to the subject of Christianity are absolutely 100% valid. And that is VERY relavent to the discussions in this thread...

Quote:
If you go back and look at it, the Bible is far more reliable than the few scattered texts referring to guys like Plato or Aristotle.
I accept your point. Why right do we have to think our historical 'knowledge' of Aristotle is any more accurate than our historical 'knowledge' of Christ or his 'miracles'?

The first point is, in a certain respect, I don't nessesarily trust implicitily our current knowledge of Aristotle. What I mean by this is, if a document was to be discovered which seemed to bring our current knowledge of Aristotle into question, I would not hesitate to examine the new evidence and, if nessesary, REDEFINE my understanding of Aristotle.
I can do this because I am not 'emotionally' attached to my ideas about Aristotle. If I have to change my view on him or his 'works' based on new evidence, I will do so without having to rip my belief systems apart in the process.

...maybe you don't see this as a relavent point. And for you in particular, maybe it isn't. But for other, less 'rational' Christians, this is a VERY important point.

Second point - Aristotles 'recorded' actions produce no 'contridictions' with other sources of knowledge.

For example, let's take a theoretical situation. Let's theorise that Aristotle recorded an incident where he called on the power of Zeus to bring down a lightning bolt - for example.

Would that alter my perception of the 'historical' authenticity of that occurence? Let's put it this way - I would need far more historical backing in relation to THAT particular incident.

If you have issues with that stance, let me ask a retorical question - WOULDN'T YOU?!

The fact is though, is that that was just a theoretical exersise.
In truth, Aristotle was a philospoher and performed actions that anybody can relate to - religious, or non-religious.

He debated about many issues with others.
...well, I can do that too. In fact, I'm doing it now.

He also performed scientific experiments.
...well, I can do that too. I have done in the past, I can do now, and I will do in the future.

...BUT NOW, if Aristotle had said he called a bolt of lightning down using the power of Zeus...
...well, I can't relate to that AT ALL. I can't do it. I haven't seen ANYBODY ELSE do that either...

Quote:
To me it seems like many people don't go for Chrisitanity because (1) it's a tough life to life and (2) it doesn't always line up with people's preconceived notions of what a loving God ought to be.
You can't assume that about me - sorry.

Before you cry 'well, then you can't assume other people are irrational then', that's a different thing altogether.

I can't assume people's 'motives' for believing in Christianity. OK, I have my suspitions, but I can't know for sure, so they have no relavence in a rational debate about the 'fundemental' truth of Christianity...

I CAN however make legitamete determinations on a person's rationality on a particular topic from their arguments...

I used to believe in Christ and the Bible. But I don't anymore. And it wasn't becuase i was tired of living God's commandments, or anything of the sort.
I looked at the evidence and came to the conclusion that the things I had been taught were not actually true.

...it's as simple as that.

...but then again, I could be lying to your face

That is why in these circumstances, trying to bring individuals motives into the equation is pointless.

Quote:
On that note, I would like to make a point. I'm sure everyone here was disciplined as a small child, probably harshly at some points. Now, did you like that? Probably not. Did it help you to do the right thing (or at least that which your parents required of you)? Yes. So just because something isn't to your pleasure or satisfaction doesn't mean its not good for you. That's a mistaken notion of our postmodern Christian culture. Again, just a thought for consideration...
What is your point?
Are you trying to say that an eternity of torment is a 'just punishment' for not believing in the writings of a particular book?
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Old 10-15-2003, 04:49 PM   #190
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I'm simply trying to say that as far as life goes, just because it doesn't make us happy doesn't mean its not for our good. There are a lot of things I haven't liked about my life. I, however, see them as things that God has allowed to be in my life in order that I might learn and grow from them. Humans will never grow except in the face of difficulty and adversity; it's not in our nature.

For proof, all you need to do is look at the people around you. When things aren't going wrong, they're prefectly content to stay the way they are. But when something does go wrong, they quickly began to change, to meet the challenge if you will. Now, that's not proof for God (don't say I didn't clarify that one), but I'm just trying to make the point that many (certainly not all, but many) people who reject Christianity do so because life is tough.

This is in part the fault of many Christians themselves, who have espoused a "pink-cloud theology" - that is, everything will be happy and right for you if you become a Christian. In fact, the Bible itself says the opposite, so those people who reject it on those grounds are anything but rational. But as Christians, it is our fault in that we have said that's how it is. In reality, Christ himself said, "In this world you will have trouble." While this may not be the case for you, CTBD, there's a lot of people that it is the case for.

There's a lot of people who turn away because something goes wrong in their life and they say "Why would God allow that?" I understand that sentiment, but see what it does to your life. Look at Ted Turner, one of the richest men alive today. He's also one of the bitterest. He turned away from Christianity at a young age because his sister died, and he didn't believe it could be something a loving God would allow. So my point is that just because God loves us doesn't mean that He's going to make everything easy for us. That's what I was getting at with the whole parent example.


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Old 10-15-2003, 06:27 PM   #191
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...but I believe my implication that Luke implicitly and fully self-admittedly has irrational thought processes when it comes to the subject of Christianity are absolutely 100% valid. And that is VERY relavent to the discussions in this thread...

Only the bible... i use that as my basis for christianity. If thats wrong, then theres nothing about christianity to follow. I dont follow other people's ideas unless its biblical. Now face it, to a christian, the bible is more than a book, its God's word. It says its all 100% God's word.
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Old 10-15-2003, 06:41 PM   #192
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Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Only the bible... i use that as my basis for christianity. If thats wrong, then theres nothing about christianity to follow.
Dam you split that nail into...

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
I dont follow other people's ideas unless its biblical.
If you ever go to any church and listen to any preacher you're following another persons Ideas. I have been to church a few times. The guy is always preaching the bible with a slant on it from his point of view.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Now face it, to a christian, the bible is more than a book, its God's word. It says its all 100% God's word.
You're walking along in the woods one day and fined a book on a rock. You pick it up and read it. The book contradicts everything in the bible, but it says it's "100% god's word." Will you believe it?


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Old 10-15-2003, 09:10 PM   #193
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I don't have the time to read everything right now, nor the time to make a comment on everything. For now I'll just say that if by some chance the New Testament was altered it would be the first time ever in history that it has happened in that amount of time. Just a thought.

EDIT: And luke. Cosnider this. During New Testament times people considered the books of the apocrypha to be scripture. When it is said, all scripture is God breathed, that would include the apocrypha if put into context. So your faced with two posibilities, either you believe that the Bible is wrong in that case, or you believe that the apocrypha rightfully belongs in the Bible. I haven't read the apocrypha, I've heard some things, but not read it myself, so I won't go saying that it doesn't belong(not saying it does either)-I made that mistake saying that I didn't believe Mormons should be consider Christians without really looking into it.


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Old 10-15-2003, 09:48 PM   #194
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All the talk about the bible being rewritten and stuff. I might be out of the loop on this, but I thought I would look it up. I found a christian web site that has allot different things to this effect.

Personally to think the bible hasn't changed is kind of silly. I don't think there is any doubt the book has been rewritten many times possibly. To reflect the people reading it. If this is true; however, what do the christians stand on if the book they defend is really fake? So naturally they aren't going to agree with it being rewritten; though, if it wasn't that doesn't make it any less fake..

The 1st site is christian; however, and it is pointing to the "king James version" as the only true version... Read the site for yourselves get from it what you want.. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the subject...

The christian site...
http://www.chick.com/information/bib...jamesbible.asp

Some other site about it..
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/7418/

I stumbled on this site it is a perfect example of christians and muslems and how great their religion is....
Bad bad site. don't read this. no no no bad........
http://www.you-got-mail.com/binladenlog2001.htm


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Old 10-15-2003, 10:00 PM   #195
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I didn't say "I believe the New Testament hasn't changed significantly since its writing", I do, but thats not what I said. The books of the New Testament were written between 50 and 100 A.D. The earliest fragments that we have are from 114 A.D. We have whole books from 200 A.D. By 250 A.D. we have most of the New Testament, and by 325 A.D. we have the complete New Testament. That is 225 years max after its original writing. We have a total of 24,870 manuscripts, which are of 15 differnt languages. We have 5,686 manuscripts in Greek alone. If a myth would evolve out of this extremely short amount of time it would be the very first time in history. The authenticity of the Bible, especially the New Testament, is not a rational grounds on which to attack it.

EDIT: I urge you to give me evidence in which you come to the idea that the New Testament has been altered.

EDIT 2: Oh yeah, and I do not believe the King James Version is the only 'true' version of the Bible. That's ridiculous.


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Old 10-15-2003, 10:23 PM   #196
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Rainer511,

Quote:
There are at least 5,309 surviving Greek manuscripts which contain all or part of the New Testament. Plus, there are translations into different languages which date back to within 100 years of the disciples. For example, the P.e.s.h.i.t.t.a is a Syrian translation from the 2nd century.

These manuscripts agree with each other about 95% of the time. The problem is, how does one determine what is right in the 5% of the places where the manuscripts do not agree?
Is the above quote:

a. Untrue and irrelavent
b. Untrue, but IF true would be relavent
c. True, but irrelavent
d. True and relavent


To me, this statement, whether true or false (Although I personally see no reason to dismiss it as propaganda, unless you give me a good reason to...) IS relavent.

Please refer to one of my earliest comments on gospel alterations in this thread:

Quote:
First of all, I'd be interested in knowing if all the books of the New Testament have as many alternate, uncontradicting sources as 20,000.

Last edited by CloseTheBlastDo; 10-16-2003 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 10-16-2003, 02:18 AM   #197
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"CloseTheBlastDo" ..D.. for 2000

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
The authenticity of the Bible, especially the New Testament, is not a rational grounds on which to attack it.
Is there any other rational grounds to attack it...? I personally think if I'm reading something that is telling me how to live my life I would like to see evidence that it is correct. Kind of like reading a book on how to have a better marriage from a guy that has been divorced 15 times and had a sex change...

I have set a many of night on a "1 to 1" with a mentally ill patent claming to here god. They right all kinds of notes letters stating what god is telling them. That they are going to heaven and all of us sinners are going to hell. I don't see any difference between them and people righting books like the bible except back then mentally ill people were either possessed by demons or a prophet.

I urge you to prove to me that the people who wrote the bible were not schizophrenic.

I have met many people that clame to here god or even be god and are telling me I'm going to hell. While I have to hold them down to get a shot after they attacked a so called sinner...

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
EDIT: I urge you to give me evidence in which you come to the idea that the New Testament has been altered.
I urge you to prove it isn't.. There are countless web-sites and books out there that say it is and it isn't.. I simply believe the more "RATIONAL" ideal.

Like the silly notion some christians have that Man and Dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. They say they have evidence to back that up and they show it.

The problem is it is directly contradictory to proven science... Do you think that people could survive with them? Let me know and when they pull a "Jurassic Park." I will buy you a ticket to go on safari.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rainer511
EDIT 2: Oh yeah, and I do not believe the King James Version is the only 'true' version of the Bible. That's ridiculous.
I also urge you to prove it isn't the true version of the bible. How can more than one version be true anyway? "That's ridiculous." Better start reading all the true versions so I can get into heaven...

For all of you who don't know what a "1 to 1" is. It is when there is a dangerously mentally ill patent in a Psych Hospital. Someone has to be within arms reach of them 24-7.


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Old 10-16-2003, 04:17 AM   #198
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Quote:
Cosmos Jacky:
Any of those 4 things, because pantheism definitely has a world view.. Personally I think your view of religion is one sided and your definition..
Because religion is one-sided. Religion in practice is always a measure of control (and not some guide for those who are lost without god). Look at the structure of the Holy Church! Any religion through out history has always associated with power. And religion for a single person is not possibble, without communicating with that religious world. That's why, pantheism is more a philosophy than a religion.

Quote:
(4)A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion... Pantheism is just that...
There is no straight line drawn between religius belief and philosophy. But I think your definition of pantheism still points more on that you're spiritual person, rather than religious.

EDIT: look at the list above. Do you like it that way?

Last edited by Homuncul; 10-16-2003 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 10-16-2003, 04:17 AM   #199
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I made a double-post and edited it. Oh what a smart-ass
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Old 10-16-2003, 04:34 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
Because religion is one-sided. Religion in practice is always a measure of control (and not some guide for those who are lost without god). Look at the structure of the Holy Church! Any religion through out history has always associated with power. And religion for a single person is not possibble, without communicating with that religious world. That's why, pantheism is more a philosophy than a religion.
Yes I know all about the holy church and religious power blah blah blah.. Have you read my quote in my signature?....

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
There is no straight line drawn between religius belief and philosophy. But I think your definition of pantheism still points more on that you're spiritual person, rather than religious.
No there isn't a straight line.. I would think Pantheism takes god, mysticism, and ignorance out of religion. As it changes the meaning of the word god.

I would like for you not to call me spiritual again please. I think that is the worst insult I have ever had on here....

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul
EDIT: look at the list above. Do you like it that way?
What list?


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